Author Topic: The Ultimate C-10 Build?  (Read 266554 times)

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Offline Rev Ryder

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The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« on: November 28, 2012, 05:35:56 am »
Well, I may just have to do it.  Steve's been hollerin forever that there just ain't any hot roddin' going on around here any more and now there are a few folks getting some stuff in the works.  I need to get a bike assembled in time for the next National, but mine is pretty smashed up and is going to take a fair bit of cash and junk and glue and duct tape to hack it back. SOoooooo, if I have to do THAT much work and spend THAT much time (and possibly more than a hunert bux) then it better be bygawd worth the effort.

So, I'm thinkin' it needs to have at least 200hp, some carbon fiber and titanium and leftover space shuttle parts.  They tell me eBay is my friend (I can prove em wrong, but I'll jest play along fer a spell) and so I'm scourin' the links lookin' fer deals and Hogboy's gonna hook me up with that nano waveblaster necrometer thingy if we can get it across the border.  He'll be jumpin' Niagra Falls at night with a Windsor Green jetpak in two weeks but that's top secret so keep it on the down low.

The combination for my build is also classified, but I gotta find my CDs from Dan's ZGRX build before I can get too far.  I've been collecting roadside refuse for several weeks and think I have almost enough stuff to begin, though nuttin' near enough to finish.  (I did find a mint vintage Old Crow bottle though and a rusty six-pak of Saki-Soda).  Hold my beer, I'm goin' in.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 10:48:35 am »
now THIS aughta be good  :) is turbocharging a zrx12 mill in the picture here :beerchug: Steve
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Offline Eddie-FL

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 11:19:22 am »
Oh, lordy! Rev's done got the bug...again! This aughta be good   >:D
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 12:57:07 pm »
now THIS aughta be good  :) is turbocharging a zrx12 mill in the picture here :beerchug: Steve
ZZR1200 EFI Turbo is the plan (if I can get it to fit).  I found a mill with second gear blown out and made a 20 hour/1200 mile run to fetch it last Friday.  Since I don't have an entire bike nor the cash to get all the required stuff, I may have to get creative.  I haven't settled on ignition yet.  It's either modify a C-10 ignition to work, purchase the ZZR parts and wire THAT in, or go back to trying to get the ECU to run timing (but I haven't been happy with my results on that after two years of piddling at times with it). The problem with using the C-10 ignitor is that the ZZR uses a single pickup instead of two and the cases are not cast and/or machined for the front pickup.  I could build a plate to bolt in and mount them and then use a C-10 trigger wheel (similar mounting).  The ZZR wheel has one small tooth and two long ones where Connie's has one long tooth and two pickups.  The easy thing I suppose is get the ZZR box and wire it in like Dan did the Rex box (which may be the same).

The fitment difficulty of the engine is the upswept intake ports, but that's also where the ZZR's extra ponies and broadened powerband come from.  There's no way to get carbs to fit a non-perimeter frame, but I believe I can build an intake runner with a single butterfly to fit.  I may have to drop the engine somewhat for valve adjustments, but that's not THAT big of a deal (I hope).  By purchasing this engine, it is pretty much going to push me out of the C-10 engine business I think.  That will possibly mean a mess of stuff for sale to finance this new stab at Connie silliness.  I'll probably part with a LOT of stuff like ZX cams and a ZX head with stainless valves plus two other complete engines and spare ZZR alternator and who knows what all.

Leaving BigJoe's old '06  bike untouched for now, I'll use the best of what I have and probably sell the rest so I can buy or make what I do not have (which is a lot).  Yes, this is stupidity since I could fix the old bike with front plastics, mirrors, pegs and brackets, engine covers, bars, antlers, bags, and paint, but I'd still only have the world's tallest midget... I wanna bigger midget. ;)

This is likely my last build so I'd like it to be a little "speshul".  :))
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 01:00:13 pm »
I thinks I gotta get a new kilt fer this build though.    :D
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 01:14:45 pm »
I think the only real concern I see here is the engine mounting integrity with the extra power. Since the connie engine is a stressed frame member, I'm thinking that there's going to be alot more stress on your mounts with the WAAAY extra HP. I'm wondering not just from a "hold the engine in" perspective, but also the "my frame feels like it's hinged" perspective. What do you see there? Steve
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Offline Jorge

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 03:55:07 pm »
Thinking about Steve's comment, seems that the reaction forces (to the torque) will be trying to twist the engine/tranny combo, and the swingarm.
Since the engine and tranny are one piece, the forces they put on the frame are where the torque "comes out" at the rear to the shaft, adn where the engine/tranny are bolted to the frame. That might create some interesting handling issues when the front of the frame twists on one direction and the rear in the opposite. The swingarm will also see a lot of torque applied to it as reaction forces to the drive shaft, so it would also twist.
Having said all that, if Rev's previous venture did not show much in the twisting, this one would just be more of the same.
Sounds like a fun project (or at least the final product!)
Jorge

Offline turbo-max

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 04:21:39 pm »
Thinking about Steve's comment, seems that the reaction forces (to the torque) will be trying to twist the engine/tranny combo, and the swingarm.
Since the engine and tranny are one piece, the forces they put on the frame are where the torque "comes out" at the rear to the shaft, adn where the engine/tranny are bolted to the frame. That might create some interesting handling issues when the front of the frame twists on one direction and the rear in the opposite. The swingarm will also see a lot of torque applied to it as reaction forces to the drive shaft, so it would also twist.
Having said all that, if Rev's previous venture did not show much in the twisting, this one would just be more of the same.
Sounds like a fun project (or at least the final product!)
Jorge

not sure on what way exactly you think the frame "will or should" twist with said power, but i do not see it "twisting" on the "roll" plane, but more likely a "pitch" and MAAAYBE a slight "yaw" twist...just my observation (and it could be completely wrong)
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 04:46:51 pm »
I personally think it will be fine.  I believe the exhaust flange mounts will actually better distribute the power/stress through the engine than the stock Concours "cast in" mounts do so it should actually be stiffer than my (or your) current setup.  I am also pretty sure I have been VERY near the 200 hp mark with my current configuration and nothing bad happened.  This will just be a saner engine to do that with which will require only half the boost (or less) to hit the mark.  Current plans are no more than 6-8 psi.  I've been to 15 on my current setup (C-16 fuel) that "calculates" to 190+.  My experience was that Connie's smallish rear tire can only offer so much torque to the chassis anyway.  After that point the tire just slips or the wheelies force a let off.

 To be sure the C-10 chassis gives up some if not a LOT of stiffness to the perimeter framed bikes, but the engine will actually have considerable more mounting integrity than it had in its own original frame.  Now, the only thing that I wonder about in all of this is whether the engine's structural capacities can carry the load.  That WILL depend on how flexi the Connie chassis is as to how much "torque" is applied to the cases/cylinders/head when in cornering situations with power on.  here again, I KNOW the tires become the primary limiting factors here.  I just think that the Connie case/cylinder/head structure is stouter than the ZZR or ZRX1200 ones due to the massively reduced mating surface area of the cases to cylinder plus the use of iron liners which are bound to lend stiffness to the engine.

Any thoughts on that?
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 05:23:47 pm »
the liners in the c-10 are rubber mounted (orings) I don't see them lending an rigidity at all. In fact, I would think the zzr's cyl block is actually stiffer, as the liners are a cast part of the whole block. JMO, Steve
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Offline virtualdev

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 06:19:45 pm »
This sounds like quite an adventure, can't wait to see the results  :popcorncouple:

Meanwhile, selling old stuff?  How about an EFI setup for my 86  :)

Though, I can't complain about the carbs right now.  SiSF did me right.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 08:37:09 pm »
the liners in the c-10 are rubber mounted (orings) I don't see them lending an rigidity at all. In fact, I would think the zzr's cyl block is actually stiffer, as the liners are a cast part of the whole block. JMO, Steve
Well then, there you have it.  It ought to be plenty strong with minimal flex and lend that rigidity to the chassis.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 08:53:36 pm »
This sounds like quite an adventure, can't wait to see the results  :popcorncouple:
Yes, I can envision a few burns and busted knuckles alongside copious head scratching and chin rubbing. LOL

Quote
Meanwhile, selling old stuff?  How about an EFI setup for my 86  :)
Unfortunately for you and fortunately for me, most of the hardware will translate to the new set up with only the throttle body, throttle position sensor, and previous mapping being discarded.  More will change on the turbo side of the equation, but I am not yet sure how much.

Quote
Though, I can't complain about the carbs right now.  SiSF did me right.
There really should be nothing to complain about with Steve's carbs. There are none better anywhere.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 08:59:49 pm »
One area of question for me is the oil pan.  The Zed has a very deep sump for the pickup.  This is apparently an attempt at heading off the starvation of the #3 cylinder that has plagued so many ZX11s and even rears its ugly head on the C-10 by way of the pressure warning light showing under heavy braking (particularly when the oil level is a little to a lot low).  The problem with the deep sump is that it effectively reduces ground clearance by nearly four inches right in the center of the bike... the place where ground clearance may actually be required.  With my USD forks, the bike is already lowered and the deep sump concerns me and I'm not sure I can use it.
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Offline Centex

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 09:35:22 pm »
<snip>….  I haven't settled on ignition yet.  It's either modify a C-10 ignition to work, purchase the ZZR parts and wire THAT in, or go back to trying to get the ECU to run timing (but I haven't been happy with my results on that after two years of piddling at times with it). The problem with using the C-10 ignitor is that the ZZR uses a single pickup instead of two and the cases are not cast and/or machined for the front pickup.  I could build a plate to bolt in and mount them and then use a C-10 trigger wheel (similar mounting).  The ZZR wheel has one small tooth and two long ones where Connie's has one long tooth and two pickups.  The easy thing I suppose is get the ZZR box and wire it in like Dan did the Rex box (which may be the same)….<snip>

Hey Rev, are you familiar with the TCIP4 tunable ignition module from IgniTech? Or maybe the “Sparker Racing 3” version with even more sensor potential?

Very popular with the Ducati crowd that’s burdened with older carb models that had non-programmable ignition modules.  Yeah, only available direct from the manufacturer in the Czech Republic but from all accounts I’ve read there’s no problem doing business with them.  I’ve had reasonably prompt and understandable replies to my English email inquiries of them.  Nope, not free, but at about $200 including DHL air shipping at current euro conversions, IMHO the price is VERY reasonable for what you get in terms of tune ability.  Full manuals available for download on the site.

If remotely interested drop me an email and I’ll send you the files of info I’ve collected about the TCIP4 from Ducati forums.  FWIW if I decide to modify the internals on my 750 Duc with flatslides (or move to installing an 800 motor from an FI model but use flatslides for induction) this is definitely the way I’ll go.

Did I read you’ll be in Lockhart Saturday for LD Dave’s BBQ?  If so, let me know and I’ll print/bring some stuff I have on the TCIP for your reading enjoyment.  Been wanting to meet ‘ya, look for the Connie in my avatar, I’ll be wearing my standard dark-blue CMRA cap to cover the helmet-hair when I’m off the bike.

Sounds like a great project in the mill!
Alan in Central Texas
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 02:08:24 am »
ACTUALLY ALAN....

You just reminded me, I have a complete Dyna2000 programmable ignition system lying around SOMEWHERE that could probably work.  It bolts on where the four screws for the pickups go, but since it uses a plate, it might be adaptable to this different engine.  Hmmmm!  Thanks for the idea.  Now where the heck did I put that thing when I pulled it off a coupla years back when I was trying to get the Microsquirt to do ignition as well as fuel?  Hope I didn't pitch it or give it away.  I'll have to go on a search.  It was a $300 system and is fully programmable.  I COULD go back after the Microsquirt deal again.  It IS a complete engine management system, but I never found a trigger wheel that gave me a good solid and consistent square wave pattern.  I have more ideas about that now, but am not REAL excited about spending a lot of time for little or no gain and possible failure.
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 03:56:50 pm »
I'm all ears on this Chuck (got plenty of peanuts, popcorn and beer and a comfortable ring-side seat). If you can't find your CD, let me know, I'll send you another one lickety-split (free).

You could skip to something like this:



But that might be too easy (Falconer all aluminum 10 litre V-12).

I don't think the Zed engine can be converted to shaft (but I could be wrong). I would recommend chain drive anyway, no shaft to twist in two or final drive gears to shuck. Much lighter also (maybe 25-30 pounds). I can hook you up with the guy I helped to convert his Concours to chain drive, several modifications to the frame are necessary. For oil delivery under stress (heavy acceleration/deceleration) you might want to consider baffles around the sump pickup to discourage the oil from stacking up on the front or rear of the pan.

Dan
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 04:44:03 pm »
Thanks Dan.  I am still searching for my CD, but after moves it isn't where I thought it ought to be. LOL  Imagine that.  I haven't given up quite yet.  Still a couple of boxes to rip through, but I have to dig them out of storage first.  Maybe this coming Sunday.  I'm hoping you're mistaken about being able to convert the Zed to shaft.  Since the Rex guys swap these trannies into their scoots and you swapped the Connie guts into the Rex, I was expecting it to be do-able.  However, one lives and learns.

I already have Paul's contact info as I worked with him on his EFI conversion.  I know he later abandoned the Microsquirt for the Z1000 stock ECU and a PCIII (or V) and is now happy.  I DO know how tough it is to get the acceleration bins to work well and give you what you need with throttle application.  Mine took forever to get working well so that there was power across the range without dead spots or surges (I kinda dread going through all that again).  Paul even made me one of his plate adapters for the throttle bodies (interesting and imaginative method of mounting, but would require a total revamp of my plenum and cold tube) and he helped me chase the Squirt ignition woes I was having.  I never did get THAT right before I abandoned it (ran out of money and gumption) and went back to stock ignition and triggering the squirt off the #1 coil.

Anyways, I sure hope the Zed can convert.  I'm really a shaft guy and not wanting to convert the scoot to a chainsaw.  Besides I have a brand new swingarm, driveshaft, and final-drive from a certain group of Egyptian Connies just dying to go to work. 

That V12 makes me drool.  I've been eyeing a SMART car for a Formula 1 Car project and that might just be the ticket. LOL  I bet it sounds incredible.  Personally, rather than staying ringside, I think you and Steve oughta come visit me for a few months.  I have beer and popcorn here... it IS light butter, but it's popcorn and the beer is Shiner Bock.   :beerchug:
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 04:50:42 pm »
Oh, and about the oil stack up... the Zed pan has a deep sump.  A well about 3-4 inches deep that the pickup sits down in.  Not thinking I can use it though for lack of ground clearance.  If not, it's true some kind of baffling or trap doors could help.  With the Turbo conversion, I go to four quarts of oil even instead of 3.2 on my C-10 (kinda hard to explain, but that is to the middle of the sight glass).  But the number three oiling problems on the GPZ & ZX11 have not been fully rectified on the later engines i.e. ZRX, ZZR, etc.  It seems the main problem is oil staying in the head and starving the engine since the only return is on the left side cam chain tunnel.  But if necessary, there is a dry sump available for them that cures all that.  It's only money, right?   :-\
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 05:21:06 pm »
I looked up the parts commonality between ZXR and ZZR and it DOES look like the Zed engine is shaft convertible just as the ZRX engine was (14090-1877 is the same part for both engines). I am not sure about the rear engine mounts (Concours and ZRX are identical). If they are the same, this will place the output in the same location as Rex and Concours. It must be the same since these positions do not vary from model to model (output location) generally.

I forgot you and Paul had collaborated on the FI project.

BTW, you'll have to call this thing a C-12Zed or somesuch. I can burn a CD in a jiffy if you need it, just let me know. I don't have your new snail addy so you'll need to e-mail it (or PM) it to me.

Dan
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2012, 06:58:54 pm »
That sounds promising.  I know the Rex guys have used ZZR cylinders with Rex heads, they've swapped out their five speeds with the Zed's six speed tranny, and they've put Zed cams in Rex heads so there is a great deal of interchange compatibility (thanks ma kaw).  I looked up the bearings on the trannies and such and saw the same part numbers and figured it was a go, but until it works, I'd be crazy to say for sure it does. LOL  It looks promising though and I EXPECT it to work (and I expect the difficulties will be almost identical to what you encountered with the Rex engine.  The 1200 Rex and 1200 Zed are pretty close cousins from what I can tell.  And the ZZR makes C-14 power out of the box with stock dyno results from 134 to 149 at the rear wheel (probably depending on dyno and or carb set up)... of course that IS chain drive too, so with the shaft I'd expect a fair bit less.  Advertised HP is 158.

As for what to call it, I was kinda thinking ZZG-T codename Zedpotomas... but ain't nuttin' writtin' in blood YET.
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2012, 07:33:56 pm »
Uh...

Maybe I picked the wrong engine for the ZGRX. 158 horsepower is a lot more than the dyno-optimized 124 that my Rex came with.

Are you going to have any difficulty with the down-draft arrangement clearing the Concours frame?

Dan
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2012, 08:37:19 pm »
GRrrrr!  I just typed up a long answer (like all my answers) to the interference question and then lost it to Windows 8.  Don'tcha just hate new computer learnin' curves.

Anyway, short answer (because I have an appointment) yes, the upswept intakes is an issue and carbs or motorcycle throttle bodies are not going to work.  However, the ZZR has bolt on intake manifolds that also bolt off.  And I plan on making a ram's horn type manifold to bolt directly to the head with the injectors near the cylinder openings and curl into a collector/plenum that will house a single 3" throttle body butterfly and TP sensor.  I think I can have plenty of room for that setup and it will be easier all around to tune and adjust.  Never will have to synch cylinders again. LOL  Not sure what turbo I will run yet... may use what I have since the boost will be low.  Spool up is currently 3600 RPM and with another 152ccs that should come down even a bit more. 

Well, I have to run to the hospital and then have a fundraiser tonight, a newsletter to write, and a bulletin to put together by tomorrow morn (not to mention sermon and liturgy for Sunday) so I may will be scarce the rest of the day. 

As Tigger would say, "ta ta for now."
Fortis non Ferox
 Shafties Can't Wheelie

Offline GF-in-CA

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2012, 03:14:06 pm »
This is great, Rev!  As always, I'll be looking forward to watching your progress.  It sounds like it will be a monster.  >:D  Speaking of monster, are you planning on keeping the stock displacement or doing a big bore?  I'm guessing no, but thought I'd ask.  Keep it up and don't forget to post lots of pics.
Gary F.

1998 ZGX1100
Central Valley California

Offline connie_rider

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2012, 06:10:38 pm »
OK, I've been monitoring and have a question.
Everyone that has done the Turbo install has had piston problems.
The solution on the C-14's has been Forged pistons. (or in Rev's case on the C-10, lowering the compression)
Does the ZZR have Forged pistons?
If not, whats yer plan?

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Rev if you had a working dyno you could give us actual Torque/HP readings.
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