Author Topic: The Ultimate C-10 Build?  (Read 275026 times)

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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2012, 06:44:11 pm »
That V12 makes me drool.  I've been eyeing a SMART car for a Formula 1 Car project and that might just be the ticket. LOL  I bet it sounds incredible.  Personally, rather than staying ringside, I think you and Steve oughta come visit me for a few months.  I have beer and popcorn here... it IS light butter, but it's popcorn and the beer is Shiner Bock.   :beerchug:

A friend of mine and I spent about 1/2 day at Ryan Falconer's outfit when they were down in Salinas. I asked Ryan if his V-12 had suffered any catastrophic failures and he said only one when it hit the ground at about 350 mph. It's a really cool, strong, beautiful engine but very "old school". I would have liked it better if he made it a 60 degree four valve twin cammer V-12 rather than 90 degree push rod two valver.

Dan
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2012, 07:02:44 pm »
OK, I've been monitoring and have a question.
Everyone that has done the Turbo install has had piston problems.
The solution on the C-14's has been Forged pistons. (or in Rev's case on the C-10, lowering the compression)
Does the ZZR have Forged pistons?
If not, whats yer plan?

Nope. No forged pistons.  The solution is less boost.  I'm stick wrestling with that. LOL

Quote

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Rev if you had a working dyno you could give us actual Torque/HP readings.
I had to sell the dyno to get the money for the engine.  >:D
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2012, 08:43:39 pm »
Better start looking for Forged....
      beacause
There ain't noooo way "you" can keep the boost turned down.


I ignored the comment about you selling "my" Dyno....
  (as they put people in Jail for doing whut I would hafta do if'n you sold it).


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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2012, 09:16:36 pm »
Better start looking for Forged....
      beacause
There ain't noooo way "you" can keep the boost turned down.
My smarty pants reply to that is below.....

Quote
I ignored the comment about you selling "my" Dyno....
  (as they put people in Jail for doing whut I would hafta do if'n you sold it).

Better start learnin' to play the harmonica.   :rotflmao:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2012, 12:46:39 pm »
As has been observed, the zzr12 and zrx12 bottom ends are the same except for the compression and 5vs 6 speed. If it were me (because I'm practical and lazy) I'd go with the sidedraft zrx head. The zzr cams drop in. Several manufacturers make turbo pistons.

 Chuck, you might want  to spend some time at zrxoa , they have some dedicated turbo forums there. Might help learn where the issues are, where to get parts, etc... Steve
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2012, 07:59:47 pm »
I've spent more time on the Rex boards than I care to admit.  I believe know every turbo build over there and haven't found too many sharp tools in that treasure chest (with few exceptions).  I've learned MUCH more from the turbo busa guys and the drag bike boys than from the Rex folks.  There will be plenty of educated guessing as I go, but I already have the build done between my ears with multiple scenarios playing out various ways.  In the end it WILL depend somewhat on what money I can get. Hospital and doctor bills have left my motorcycle hobby in peril with SWMBO and thus my budget for this build is an impossible sounding $300 plus whatever I can sell/trade/bargain for.  That means no even slightly fancy stuff and being at least a lot conservative.  I have a few car parts lying around that I think I can cobble into the mix that will improve upon every area of performance in this build.  I'd like to get a bigger turbo, but don't think I'll be able to swing that and I believe the ones I have are easily adequate to get me the 200hp goal at low boost.

I've always been a no nonsense "budget" engine builder.  I've departed from the crowd, widely at times, but also tried to be practical by choosing engines from what was available and looking at what I wanted it to do and what it will require.  I personally see this build as MORE practical than using the Rex head since it will flow better and produce more power than the Rex at any boost (or non boost).  Since almost all other challenges remain the same, i.e. engine mounting, transmission conversion, etc., more power at the same cost IS the practical thing.  Now if I were planning on using carbs, then no doubt the Rex head would be much easier if not the only possibility.  And granted, using the Rex head most of my stuff would port over to it... but by virtue of there being a more potent head available that could be made to work, it wouldn't be very "ultimate" IMHO.  Besides... it's been done.

Granted there will always be more than can be done like big bore kits and such, but as for the available donor engine I believe the Zed is king.  And since I have one lying on the garage floor right now, it is by far the most practical engine to use.  And it will give me more opportunity to screw something up... and just where would life be without that?

Besides, since when is Steve Sefsick "lazy" or boring or conventional?  Gimme a break Steve.   :))

 
 
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2012, 09:04:28 pm »
So downdraft it is then! BTW, there's some real specal guys at zrxoa, one the comes to mind is Sillyhillbilly. Definitely special.

I'm revisiting my NA efforts too... currently porting another zg head. Spent the last couple days relieving the combustion chamber and de-shrouding valves. I remember when this used to be fun  >:(  Steve
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2012, 09:19:38 pm »
So downdraft it is then! BTW, there's some real specal guys at zrxoa, one the comes to mind is Sillyhillbilly. Definitely special.
Nothing else needs be said.  I tried to help a feller with some hydrolock info... the pack was on me quick, I barely escaped without contracting droolin' stoopid dizeez.  Did you know hydrolock means you need a new petcock and bad float valves only affect the bike when parked. Sheesh!

Quote
I'm revisiting my NA efforts too... currently porting another zg head. Spent the last couple days relieving the combustion chamber and de-shrouding valves. I remember when this used to be fun  >:(  Steve

Do you have your own valve grinder?  I always wanted my own, but when I lived in Pampa, I had free access to one at Pampa Machine, so it was even better.   Even double better when Earl (Smith) would do it all for me.  I miss ol' Earl.  His son has his old 454 Corvair in Amarillo now.

Cast Iron port work is grueling slow when you're cutting in the right place... fast as murder when you're wrong.  And little heads are WAY harder than big ones.  Thank goodness it's filthy, sweaty, nasty, dirty work or a feller'd probably hate to do it. hehehe 
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2012, 10:07:54 pm »
Rev, how are you going to build the intake manifold?

Fabricate by welding steel tubing (to fit the 4 intake ports) to a common runner,,,, and attach a single larger section of tubing for the Throttle Body?
Or, try to adapt some kind of aluminum (4 cylinder car) intake manifold?

If you opt for the car manifold,,,, I can help with the aluminum welding you might need..

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2012, 11:46:52 pm »
Methinks you could be in for a major frame overhaul to get the downdraft intakes to fit. The Zed (and other downdraft equipped bikes) have wide perimeter frames to accommodate this.

It might be easier to score a Zed frame and convert the swing arm mount for the shaft stuff.

Dan
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Offline ron203

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2012, 11:51:03 pm »
Whoee! Just read this thread. I think you ought to get the Spoetzl Brewery to sponsor this project as official national platform for Shiner Bock beer! Oh boy, I'm gonna learn something here. Go Rev! :beerchug:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2012, 02:52:19 pm »
Here's something to look at - not the same, but certainly similar - http://www.zrxoa.org/forums/showthread.php?173472-zx11-head-on-a-zrx&highlight=zx11  Steve
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2012, 03:44:27 pm »
Ted,
You are right on the first portion.  I will fabricate a ram's horn type set of runners that will bolt directly to the head.  By eliminating the rubber portion and o-ringing the manifold, I can get back the space required to get it in Connie's frame (that's what I think anyway).  It will then use a common tube plenum that will connect to the butterfly of an old Corolla and feed from underneath the actual intake ports.  It will probably use the Toyota throttle position sensor if I can calibrate the Microsquirt to it (should be cake), and then be plumbed to the turbo.  The injectors will be in the top (forward side) of the ram's horn so they will spray directly at the intake valves.  The air will flow unobstructed and the fuel will be in the straightened out section so as not to have any bends in its path (except around the valves into the cylinders).

Dan, I hope the above helps you see what I envision.  There will be no individual throttle bodies as is typical of motorcycles, thus no need for a straight shot above the level of the head.  The very peak of the engine should still be the valve cover, which we already know will fit under the frame rail.   
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2012, 03:48:18 pm »
Here's something to look at - not the same, but certainly similar - http://www.zrxoa.org/forums/showthread.php?173472-zx11-head-on-a-zrx&highlight=zx11  Steve


Forget the clearance problem.  It's a non-issue with the EFI and a single throttle body mounted sideways remotely.  This idea of notching the frame is NOT on my playlist.  Connie's tank rides so low over her frame anyway you'd have to lose half her capacity to make something like that work.  My idea is totally simple compared to that.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2012, 04:03:55 pm »
I'm no artist, but something like this.  You are looking into the butterfly of the Corolla EFI throttle body with a tubular manifold that will bolt directly to the head.  Look at your ZX-Rex pic, now remove the carbs AND rubber manifold, now bolt this apparatus in place and that is basically what I will build.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2012, 04:14:52 pm »
Whoee! Just read this thread. I think you ought to get the Spoetzl Brewery to sponsor this project as official national platform for Shiner Bock beer! Oh boy, I'm gonna learn something here. Go Rev! :beerchug:
Works for me.  Shiner Bock is MY beer.  We should do a RTE RTD to the brewery.  hehehe  Oh wait, we'd have to buy Harleys to make that work.  Nevermind... but sponsorship would be awesome... even if it's free beer.  :beerchug:
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Offline WillyP

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2012, 04:49:47 pm »
Heck, I'd buy you a free beer just to see this thing!
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2012, 04:56:20 pm »
Sorta like this but less complicated.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 04:59:32 pm by Rev Ryder »
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Offline WillyP

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2012, 05:04:48 pm »
Now you just need the v-6 motor to slide under that...  :beerchug:

Well, I'm guessing that goes to a v-6, probably around 3 litre?

That in a Connie would be worth at least two beers.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 05:07:29 pm by WillyP »
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Offline BratmanXj

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2012, 05:40:31 pm »
Well, I'm guessing that goes to a v-6, probably around 3 litre?

That in a Connie would be worth at least two beers.

3.0 or 3.2 depending on 5-speed or mush-box.  That was a motor Yamaha built for use by Ford...so why would we want to do that to a Kawi?  Would we have to paint it blue with tuning-forks on it?

Offline WillyP

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2012, 06:11:58 pm »
I'd have no problem leaving the Ford emblem intact. I drive a Ford F-350 with well over 200k on it. The last 20k or so with a spun bearing*.

*my assumption, but whatever it is, damn does that thing knock and rattle.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2012, 07:46:36 pm »
Now you just need the v-6 motor to slide under that...  :beerchug:

Well, I'm guessing that goes to a v-6, probably around 3 litre?

That in a Connie would be worth at least two beers.
Dude!  If a 3 liter is only worth two beers, what's a feller gotta stuff in there fer a 6 pack?  Or do I even wanna ask?   :o
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Offline BratmanXj

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2012, 09:22:11 pm »
Dude!  If a 3 liter is only worth two beers, what's a feller gotta stuff in there fer a 6 pack?  Or do I even wanna ask?   :o

A V-12 Lincoln Flathead?  And yes the bike is rideable, been on it, it's in North Judson, IN at Kerstings Motorcycle Museum

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2012, 10:14:02 pm »
I hate Beemers and STs because the motor is mounted wrong (longitudinally) and the torque steer that induces.  No way would I wanna ride THAT thing. LOL  Transverse... THAT's the way God intended performance motorsickles to git thar engines strapped in.  Wheelies are way better'n wappin' the side of yer noggin on the road every time ya hits da loud control.  :D
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Offline WillyP

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 12:54:14 pm »
The position of that exhaust manifold relative to the floorboards would cause me more than a little concern, too.

Also, I didn't say your bike was worth only a beer, I said I'd buy you a free beer just to see it! I can afford a beer or two, if they are free.
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