Author Topic: The Ultimate C-10 Build?  (Read 275028 times)

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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2012, 04:39:20 pm »
The position of that exhaust manifold relative to the floorboards would cause me more than a little concern, too.

Also, I didn't say your bike was worth only a beer, I said I'd buy you a free beer just to see it! I can afford a beer or two, if they are free.
Ohhhhhh Kaaaayyyyyyy, I gotcha Willy...

So all's we gots ta do is find someone to give us free beer and you'll buy one or two of those, right?   :great:

Alright, back to the build.
I'm trying to plan the ignition system out right now and I have several possibilities, but there are complications with each. 

1.  Try to adapt the Connie ignition which I alrady know how to make work and which is currently firing the bike and triggering the Microsquirt to fuel the engine.  Deviating from this system will require considerable remapping and configuring of the Microsquirt module.  HOWEVER, the caveat to this method is that the cases of the ZZR engine do not have the cast-in/threaded provision for the front ignition pickup as the ZZR uses a different system and igniter.  The Connie single toothed rotor will bolt on perfectly, but requires two pickups properly located 180* apart.

2. Try to adapt the ZZR's ignition system.  This may be the simplest option.  The biggest hurdle in this one actually is purchasing the igniter.  It could then be wired into the Connie harness, the throttle position sensor from a set of ZZR carbs robbed and installed on the new throttle body, and the Microsquirt SHOULD trigger from the number one coil's flyback the same as I have it now.  As I said, the hardest part of this deal would be the purchase of the igniter and TP Sensor... $200 oughta do it, but money is the difficult part of this build.  We're having to do it pretty much without much of it.

3.  Try to configure the Microsquirt to function as total engine management and to operate the ignition as well as the fuel injection.  The system is fully capable, but the challenges have continued to thwart all of my previous attempts at making this work.  While it is advertised as Dual Spark capable (mostly for Harley usage) the Microsquirt absolutely cannot get a readable signal from a pair of Connie pickups and a single tooth wheel.  I have beat this horse to the tune of dozens of hours without a moment's decent square wave signal that the Squirt could manage.  I have tried making different wheels with up to 16-1 teeth (sprocket from Tractor Supply Co.) made to fit the shaft.  I've tried modifying COnnie wheels, and always the signal is gobbledegook.  The Squirt wants more teeth and the distance of the pickup from the teeth is crucial.  A different pickup would be preferred, but there's no room inside the case on the left side for a larger wheel.  I may explore the clutch side of the engine and the possibility of using a custom clutch steel to act as a trigger wheel.  OR I will try using the ZX10R trigger wheel (which I have already) by machining out the center to fit the shaft and drill an alignment pin hole, then running a single pickup and configuring the Squirt to read a 24-2 tooth trigger wheel.  Hopefully THAT should give me enough teeth to get better readings and get the Squirt to accept appropriate programming.  THAT would probably be the ideal since then the Microsquirt could completely control the timing with a single unit and also be able to simultaneously juggle boost control, ignition, water/meth injection, and run the fuel injection from a single, total management perspective.  A little more time and trouble to configure and map, but if I can get it to work, it would be what I've always wanted the system to do.  Again though, I have to add, I have failed at making all of this work in the past though I have now some new ideas to flesh out.

I say I want to try to do this as a FIRST step for a couple of reasons.  One, because it is what I consider the biggest hurdle.
And Two, because someone is interested in the engine that is currently in the bike and it will be easier to figure out the ignition with a well running engine already.  Meaning that the fuel curve on the current engine is good and so I wouldn't be starting with any unknowns except in the ignition area as the fuel management portion of the Squirt's programming can remain untouched.  If I can then develop the system to control ignition, I can then move the system to the ZZR engine and only have to re-develop the fuel management rather than having both ignition and fuel to fight at the same time.  At least that's the plan in my mind at this point.  If the ZX10 wheel is a no go, tehn I will either have to go to yet another wheel and custom cut it, or default back to the ZZR ignition which will limit the extent to which I can utilize the other potential management features of the Microsquirt.     
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2012, 09:38:01 pm »
Just an interesting observation... motorcyclist magazine dynos everything they test and in 2002 they tested the, then, brand new ZZR1200.  In 07 they dyno-ed the then new, 2008 C-14.  Remarkably, the antiquated and carbed ZZR1200's dyno sheet surpassed the C-14 in both HP and Torque in stock configuration.  Of course, real world riding is a totally different thing, but it makes me feel like Ma Kaw's dropping the ZZR1200 and her associated evolved GPZ/ZX10/ZX11/C-10 engine after only a five year run was a boo boo.  The subsequent loss of the ZRX1200 from production drove the last nail in the coffin, bringing the C-10 engine's genealogy to an end.  The king is dead.  Long live the king! 

This C-10 build is for all (us old farts) who refuse to surrender to the C-14's rich kid's attitude (hot rodders anyway) and punkish good looks (the C-14 probably doesn't know who his good looks came from anyway).   ;) 
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Offline WillyP

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2012, 11:00:41 pm »
Peak horsepower and torque aren't everything. The C-14 isn't meant to be used the same way a ZZR1200 would have been. I'd like to see the curves, and I'll bet a free beer the c-14 has a broader curve with more power where a sport tourer should have power.
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2012, 12:15:07 am »
Peak horsepower and torque aren't everything. The C-14 isn't meant to be used the same way a ZZR1200 would have been. I'd like to see the curves, and I'll bet a free beer the c-14 has a broader curve with more power where a sport tourer should have power.

Surely you jest (and I DID call you surely). Rev, where did we find this guy?

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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2012, 01:22:31 am »
Peak horsepower and torque aren't everything. The C-14 isn't meant to be used the same way a ZZR1200 would have been. I'd like to see the curves, and I'll bet a free beer the c-14 has a broader curve with more power where a sport tourer should have power.
You owe me ANOTHER free beer bro.

1.  The ZZR1200 IS a Sport Tourer though the factory bags were optional and the Beetle Bags cost $1700 new.
2.  The ZZR produces almost identical torque over just as broad a range as the C-14 with PEAK torque at only 4500 RPM versus the C-14s 7700 rpm.  Both are over 80ft lbs most of the time between 4000 rpm and 8500 with the ZZR extending that to 9500 rpm.  The Zed DOES have a dip into the upper seventies between 5000 and 6000 rpms.  Most likely a carb thing from the looks of it.  Horsepower-wise bangs out about a dozen more and is above the C-14's PEAK hp from 8300 RPM to its 12k redline.

When it comes right down to it, the C-14 does produce a tiny bit more torque, but then it IS nearly 200cc larger, fuel injected, vvt cammed, and all those good things. LOL 

IMHO, The Zed engine is simply an amazing piece that has basically the same soul as the C-10. 

After all this free, free beer I'm not gonna be able to stay awake, much less ride.  :))
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2012, 01:44:04 am »


C-14



ZZR1200
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2012, 02:21:34 am »
Here, I'll settle it. the zzr WILL outrun the c-14 every time. dyno charts prove it and I've seen it with my own eyes... the zzr12 was dead stock - I know for a fact, it was mine but I sold it to another Cogger. I watched him do repeated roll-ons and drag runs with c-14's on one of our RTE's and the zzr won EVERY time. Steve
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Offline Cap'n Bob

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2012, 08:10:16 am »
I thought that this was a C10 thread?    ::)



 :))

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2012, 01:14:30 pm »
Here, I'll settle it. the zzr WILL outrun the c-14 every time. dyno charts prove it and I've seen it with my own eyes... the zzr12 was dead stock - I know for a fact, it was mine but I sold it to another Cogger. I watched him do repeated roll-ons and drag runs with c-14's on one of our RTE's and the zzr won EVERY time. Steve
Thanks Steve. That's right, you owned one of these rockets for a while.  I've often thought of jumping ship to one, but wasn't willing to ditch the shaft drive.  Just silly of me maybe, but here we are now. LOL

Of course, they ought to outrun a C-14 since they are chain driven and weight a bunch less and have comparable dyno sheets.   But I gotta know, by how much did they beat them?   ;D

I find it interesting that there are no documented ZZR1200 turbo projects on the web save a few T-Rexs that were turbo-ed by Mr. Turbo ZX11 kits. Other than that Google hasn't been much help.   :(
I'd love to see some other folks stuff... not that it's particularly helpful, but that it's always encouraging and fun, as well as inspiring, to see what other folks are doing with the same pieces.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2012, 01:15:55 pm »
I thought that this was a C10 thread?    ::)



 :))
Who are you and what are you doing in my shower?   :-\



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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2012, 01:50:22 pm »
I wasn't at "the end" when they shut down, I was following when they started - and the zzr would walk away from the c-14 pretty easily. steve
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2012, 02:56:39 pm »
Oh Stevie, me lad... you're gettin' me excited.   :)
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2012, 03:37:41 pm »
I thought that this was a C10 thread?    ::)



 :))

It's a C-10 morphing thread, Bob. Same thing happened to my "C-10" when it morphed into a "C-12".

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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2012, 04:30:32 pm »
I'm all about bunny trails... ask my congregation.   :o









Anyone know what's the largest knobby that'll fit a C-10?  er... C-12?   
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2012, 01:04:53 pm »
When ("If") Rev finishes building this Monster,,,
                                          and all the parts stop falling off,,,,,
                                                                                  it "will" look like a C-10. (Sorta).   ;)


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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2012, 02:16:35 pm »
When ("If") Rev finishes building this Monster,,,
                                          and all the parts stop falling off,,,,,
                                                                                  it "will" look like a C-10. (Sorta).   ;)


Ride safe, Ted
It'll have a C-10 frame, seat, tail light, brake lever, and kickstand... so what's the problem?   :D

ZX14 forks, ZZR1200 front wheel and rotors, tubular bars, ZZR1200 engine with turbo and EFI, Meanstreak wheel, and beaded seat cover. I think that's most of the major alterations that will be noticeable and much of it is hidden.  I will have ALL the plastic on it too and while there may be a few changes to various pieces and parts, it will still appear as a C-10 (+2) though it may not appear to be a "normal" one.  I'm hoping for good things.
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Offline WillyP

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2012, 02:20:06 pm »
Free beer maybe, but you missed my point. Not that a ZZR wouldn't go faster than a C-14, and I wouldn't know either one anyway. But my point was that the ZZR was made to be a 'fast' bike, and there is usually a cost to having a higher peak power relative to displacement. My impression is that the ZZR is basically a sport bike with a nod to touring, the C-14, a touring bike dressed up for sporting.

I have never owned or even ridden either one. If you say the ZZR has a broad flat power-band, I'll have to take your word for it. I'll confess that I jumped to the conclusion the the ZZR had a peaky power band based solely on the comment that it had more power than the C-14.
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Offline JimBob

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2012, 04:38:28 pm »
Now you just need the v-6 motor to slide under that...  :beerchug:

Well, I'm guessing that goes to a v-6, probably around 3 litre?

That in a Connie would be worth at least two beers.

Indeed it does! I'd recognize an SHO intake anywhere (Ford Taurus SHO - 3.0 litre pumping out ~220 HP). I had a '94 for about ten years - man that engine just sang!  The engine was designed by Yamaha, or at least the heads and intake were. TBH I think the bottom half was just a standard Ford 3.8 V6 done in aluminum, just destroked and balanced/blueprinted.

Ahh, I miss that engine (just not the car). Once I put in a Torsen limited slip with a lighter flywheel and better clutch she became a MUCH tamer, launching beast!

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2012, 07:01:28 pm »
Free beer maybe, but you missed my point. Not that a ZZR wouldn't go faster than a C-14, and I wouldn't know either one anyway. But my point was that the ZZR was made to be a 'fast' bike, and there is usually a cost to having a higher peak power relative to displacement. My impression is that the ZZR is basically a sport bike with a nod to touring, the C-14, a touring bike dressed up for sporting.

I have never owned or even ridden either one. If you say the ZZR has a broad flat power-band, I'll have to take your word for it. I'll confess that I jumped to the conclusion the the ZZR had a peaky power band based solely on the comment that it had more power than the C-14.

The dyno sheets below are on the two bikes and both are done by the same magazine (may or may not be the same dyno operator etc. but it was the only comparison I could find that might actually be fairly set side by side).  While the Zed zings the ZG on paper AND on the pavement, you are correct that it isn't exactly apples to apples, but I think you're wrong to say the ZZr is a fast bike made tourer and the C-14 a tourer made fast.  Actually if you think about it, the C-14 is a detuned ZX14 with saddlebags and shaft drive. Both bikes have perimeter frames, but the Zed IS chain drive which is what makes its smaller engine's power get to the dyno wheel ahead of its big brother the C-14.

The C-10's heritage is much the same... fast bike (Nija 1000) made sport tourer.  None of these bikes was designed from a clean slate to be solely a touring machine.  IMHO.   Of the three I think the ZZR is possibly the most unique in that it probably shares fewer parts with its "performance" siblings than either the C-10 and the C-14.  Put a shaft drive on the Zed and equal the weight of the C-14 and THEN see which one's fastest.  My money would go with the bigger engine every time... but not by much. 
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2012, 09:05:10 pm »
It's kinda hard to imagine the difference weight and shaft drive make to slow a bike down, but here's a good comparison. On dyno sheets, my bike is verry close to a zrx1200. In the real world, the zrx12 would kill mine. Yet when doing roll-ons with Colins zrx12 equipped c-10, they ran close together. Shafts and weight  do indeed suck power - Steve
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Offline Slybones

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2012, 11:01:32 pm »
yeah but I like changing gear oil more than I like lubing and adjusting the chain.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2012, 05:28:07 am »
Me too.  So we'll just have to produce enough power that we won't care about the chain's power benefit. Eh? 
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Offline Slybones

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2012, 06:16:55 am »
I think you mean, Eh!
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2012, 02:38:45 pm »
I think you mean, Eh!
Thanky Fred fer the cultural correction.   :)  My bad!
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Offline JimBob

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Re: The Ultimate C-10 Build?
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2012, 07:32:02 pm »
Interesting stuff, that chart that Rev posted.


Remembering that peak HP is just torque multiplied by RPM (if I recall correctly, it's torque * rpm/5250, or something like that), then it's pretty easy to see that it's dependent on 2 things - peak torque, and how high an rpm that torque is produced.

From what I read (as a shade-tree with racing brothers) is the C14 torque drops off between 7500-8000 rpm, and the ZZR is still climbing, and the ZZR has a higher rpm capacity (either as a result of lower displacement because of shorter stroke, or whatever - something's different internally).

What I deduce from this is that the primary inhibitor of higher-rpm torque for the C-14 is likely a loss of air flow capability. When you tune an engine for better low-rpm torque, it's historically at the cost of high-rpm air flow, hence things like VVT and that crazy intake runner system from the SHO that was posted the other day. Those things are attempts to satisfy competing requirements (and they often do a pretty darn good job - VVT in the last ten years or so has created a huge improvement in engines).

I would guess, that if you solved the air-flow issue on the C14 (including sufficient fuel and timing controls), moved the rev-limiter up to 12k like the ZZR, AND you didn't care if its torque curve was peaky at low RPM like the ZZR, the engine would out-perform the ZZR (but not the bike, necessarily, with the weight/chain differences).