Author Topic: Trouble with tranny err...final drive  (Read 9622 times)

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Offline gottaride

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Trouble with tranny err...final drive
« on: September 02, 2014, 08:09:14 pm »
Up in Alaska headed towards Anchorage trailer my 94. Going along in fifth gear all of a sudden it drops out of gear and won't engage in any gear. Headed to The Motorcycle Shop. Will attempt to contact the ADVrider member that owns a 94 for help. The COG membership book doesn't show anyone in anchorage.
My principle concern is diagnosis and repair. This is new to me so shout out probable causes etc. my massive tool kit is with me and I'll have the shops tools but my Kawi manual stayed home duhh.
Trying to shift into any gear causes a cog on cog like sound. Thanks
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 04:04:33 pm by gottaride »

Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2014, 08:25:15 pm »
Wish I had some words of wisdom for ya Bud. Doesn't sound good though. Best of luck and keep us posted.  :beerchug:
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2014, 08:26:12 pm »
i think it's going to be a displaced shifter spring, just under the bevel drive.

 It's a kinda weird setup; when you move the shifter up or down there's a spring loaded fork that causes the shift drum to start rotating, but then it's snapped into place by springs loading bearings in the drum detents. If the shift fork spring disloges, you won't get enough movement to even get the shift drum even started, so it won't shift up or down. HTH, steve
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 12:27:27 am »
Just off loaded the bike at The Motorcycle Shop in Anchorage. The guys are helpng me with space to self wrench. Steve is this a split the cases deal of right engine cover area repair. Hours, tools, experience level/difficulty level for first timer? Do I not waste time even trying and just burn my visa. I've got scars older than any of the mechanics here....

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 12:55:53 am »
just remove the bevel drive. the spring I'm thinking of is u shaped. let me see if I can find a view - Steve

 here it is pn 92081c

  http://www.ronayers.com/Gear-Change-Mechanism--C405319.aspx
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 01:01:25 am by Steve in Sunny Fla »
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 01:18:52 am »
Yup that's the part along with all the other springs that we pulled up on the shops computer. Earliest shipping gets them here from the lower 48 Thursday maybe. So just pull the bevel drive eh, we'll darned if I've ever done that before but they had a Kawi shop manual so I'll chew through that. Did I mention I lost my reading glasses this morning? Mommmmy.
Any choice guides to pulling the bevel drive?

Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 05:30:08 am »
Update sorta...well hiked 3 miles and back to get some reading glasses from WallyWorld. Haven't had much time to read the manual yet but from what it looks like to pull off the bevel drive it seems the drve shaft and swing arm gotta go first so that means the shock and wheel. Could be the fatigue but given the situation including not having my full tools, shops cost, parts delays etc I'll leaning towards seeing how much it'll cost to ship it to Calgary and get my a** home on a jet.
Adventure you bet.

Offline worncog

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 10:26:29 am »
It is not as bad as it sounds...it is just a lot of stuff to move out of the way. You can do it in a day if your determined, or drop the visa on the youngins.

Other than the small spring loaded pin in the driveshaft/bevel gear interface, all the parts are big parts that you just have to move out of the way to get to the problem.

Is it possible for him to release the pin and just slide the driveshaft/swingarm aft to clear the bevel gear stub?? Minus the wheel and final drive of course.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 01:09:29 pm »

Is it possible for him to release the pin and just slide the driveshaft/swingarm aft to clear the bevel gear stub?? Minus the wheel and final drive of course.

 No, it's about impossible to put it back together like that - I've tried, believe me.

 I think the only issue would be if the bevel drive gasket is paper, and it rips, but most often, they won't.

 IMO, if you can get tools, even buy them, it's going to save you a pile of money, and one day of down time. Steve
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2014, 04:46:25 pm »
We'll after a mostly sleepless night of self depreciation it's time to suck it up and get to wrenching. Hopefully I can pull it all apart in time to see what is and isn't toasted before the parts order goes out. I'll take whatever bevel drive gasket quality I can get my hands on. Last night I read a few threads that helped describe the process including the all important tiny pin that likes to become invisible once removed.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 04:54:59 pm »
just remove the bevel drive. the spring I'm thinking of is u shaped. let me see if I can find a view - Steve

 here it is pn 92081c

  http://www.ronayers.com/Gear-Change-Mechanism--C405319.aspx


Here's another shot to assist in what it looks like when assembled

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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 07:45:31 pm »
Looks like the water pump cover has to be removed as well.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 08:23:23 pm »
Just fielded a phone call from gottaride. He's got the bike torn down and ready to pull the bevel drive. Rock on!

BTW, info for those reading - Kaw changed the spring on the zx / zrx engines and used a coiled clothspin type spring rather than the leaf spring. must have been a reason for that. Steve
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2014, 08:37:00 pm »
Thanks for the advice Steve. Well it just keeps getting better. Pulled the bevel drive and all appears as normal. Go figure. I checked spring tension on both up and down springs and the U spring by gently levering with a screwdriver. It could be that the U spring reset itself while I was pulling the drive dunno. So I'll post this take a wee break before total assembly just in case someone has some insight. Can't tell til it's all together but I think I'm totally dunked.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2014, 08:51:44 pm »
rotate the output shaft and try shifting it up and down, see if it goes into gear, and makes gear changes. post up. steve
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2014, 08:58:57 pm »
Ran through the tests according to the manual. There is a very slight amount of contact wear on the shifting mechanism but checking with one of the mechanics he says it's just fine he agrees that the u spring probably slipped back in to place during disassembly. Steve ... Will do

Offline VTconnie

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 09:17:08 pm »
I hope this is the case!
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 09:26:45 pm »
Seems to shift through the gears if the output is spun, if using only the external shifter and not spinning the output shifting sometimes works beyond 1st but mostly doesn't.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 09:51:42 pm »
Sounds like its time to button it back up, and ride.... :great:

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2014, 12:04:03 am »
it won't upshift from 1 to 2 unless the output is turning and centrifical force is pushing the neutral finder balls out of the way. In fact, I hope when you first thought it wasn't shifting, you tried at least rolling the bike while trying to upshift, or you just got caught thinking it wouldn't shift because you never experienced the neutral finder before. Steve
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Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2014, 04:30:29 am »
Wow what a day took 10 hours but it's done and I feel good about the work done. Unfortunately the tranny still won't shift. With the engine purring and holding inthe clutch lever trying down or up shift from neutral causes the same cog on metal ratatatat sound. I don't recall trying to roll the bike from a stand still while tryng to get it in gear but I did try to shift while coasting to the roadside when things went sideways yesterday. Me thinks something is amiss inside the gearbox. So here I sit having my second 1/4 pounder meal in as many days pondering my options.

1.Work more on the bike,,,, probably not.
2. Fly home and walk away from the bike...doesn't seem right.
3. Crate and ship it for big bucks so that I can pour more time and money into it,
4. See about renting a van and haul it home... Big bucks again.
5. Strip it of farkles, ship those, fly home...probable. Maybe I can get a few bucks for it from a wrecker...sad.

You guys were and are great help, thank you. I'm now going to have several drams.

Offline gottaride

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2014, 05:25:52 am »
Update
No amount of rolling the bike will assist in getting it in gear, so that's that. I'll do me due diligence and read up on neutral finding issues but my money is on the gears. I'll pull the right side cover for kicks too. Walking back from my delicious meal tonight it occurred to me to rent a fuel miser compact and pull and the keepers of my beloved Connie frappe la rue maƱana.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2014, 08:15:17 am »
Were you able to rotate the shift drum with the shifter when the bevel drive was off?
   This is a very unique situation. sorry it happened to you on a big ride, but the mechanic side of me needs to know what's going on it there. Maybe a bent shift fork, but that's beyond rare, and I don't think it would affect all gears. Are you sure the clutch has a full stroke and is fully disengaging? Steve
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Offline JimBob

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2014, 12:55:42 pm »
Were you able to rotate the shift drum with the shifter when the bevel drive was off?
   This is a very unique situation. sorry it happened to you on a big ride, but the mechanic side of me needs to know what's going on it there. Maybe a bent shift fork, but that's beyond rare, and I don't think it would affect all gears. Are you sure the clutch has a full stroke and is fully disengaging? Steve

I agree Steve - the latest bit of news really makes me wonder about the clutch disengaging fully:
"With the engine purring and holding inthe clutch lever trying down or up shift from neutral causes the same cog on metal ratatatat sound."

That sound is what you'll get with almost any transmission when the clutch isn't fully releasing - it seems to be more pronounced/more "ratataty" on bikes though while cars just get a "grind".

Gotta - in an earlier post you said it will shift if manually spinning the output shaft. This reminds me of a t-shooting question that I've had hammered into me: "if it worked before, what changed?". So what's different that it worked by manually spinning the output, but doesn't with the engine running?

Answer: clutch and driveline involvement.

By manually spinning, you've produced the effect on the neutral finder that Steve was describing. Beyond the finder, it's just a regular sequential transmission. Generally, if it shifts with no issues, then it shifts. Addition of the clutch/drivetrain indicates something other than transmission issue.

Offline RodWpg

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Re: Trouble with tranny
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2014, 02:20:29 pm »
In the very first post he said he was driving along in 5th gear and it dropped out of gear.......I'm not sure if that would have anything to do with the clutch?
   Very sorry to hear about your dumb luck. Just another option that I will throw out there......buy a cheap van, take the windshield off and stuff it inside.....or a half ton, and then sell it when you get home. I realize that will cost money and you have to hope the new mode of transport makes it home, good luck I'm sayin a prayer for ya.
     One option
 http://anchorage.craigslist.org/cto/4649869800.html
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