Author Topic: zg1000 BIG bore engine  (Read 10802 times)

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Offline tdbru

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2015, 05:33:41 am »
outside of the fun engineering exercises, by the time you add up all the $ for the conversion, wouldn't it be more cost effective to just buy a C14???  I know, I know, wet blanket......

seems to me the more cost effective thing is what Rev is trying to do, or Maxie.  use some sort of forced induction.  turbo or supercharger.  but perhaps not, I've never thought about hotrodding the C10, yet.  radical power increases are usually a lot more expensive to retrofit than if they were OEM.  Even though the H2 is way outa my price range, if you had to do that one-off, I bet the H2 would look cheap in comparison.

but I suppose for many, the main event is the hotrodding + project = happiness.  and that's ok too. 
-Brian

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 01:17:33 pm »
dbu - I have a c-14. Yet you see me considering more hotrodding on my c-10. Why? because it's like you said

  hotroding = project = happiness.  :) Steve

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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 01:48:56 pm »
Amen and Amen
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 03:45:55 pm »
I can relate. For years, when explaining what I did by installing the ZRX engine in the C10, maybe a third of the listeners flat out didn't get it. "Why didn't you just get an FJR?", they'd say shaking their head. I could tell I wasn't going to get through to these types, probably never dug in and fixed or modified anything. That was basically my life's story, I was raised by a mechanical genius and that's all we did when I was growing up.

My Dad never changed an engine on his motorcycles but that is about the only thing he didn't do. He was always in raising the compression ratio, upsizing the carburetor(s) and hand finishing the ports, reworking the transmission for smoother shifting, disassembling mufflers and "Bergmenizing" them, etc. He even increased the wheelbase on his CB450 to make it more of a "touring" rig. He never felt comfortable devoting the family's resources to buy fancy motorcycles, preferring to buy used affordable smaller bikes and spending a couple of years reworking them in his shop by hand.

Over the years he was continuously developing his "ideal" motorcycle. he would spend a lot of time explaining all of the details to me (engine layout, clutch type, transmission, chassis, carburetor system, everything). It really was a dream for him and he loved moving his idea along. After he passed away Honda came out with the ST1100 with almost the exact drive train design that Dad had envisioned.

I guess the apple didn't fall far from this tree. I always felt he would have enjoyed watching me build the ZGRX knowing exactly what I was doing.

Dan
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 04:12:55 pm »
Wow Dan, that would have been cool to do that stuff with your Dad. My Dad just thought I was an idiot. Steve
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Offline Capo

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2015, 04:14:21 pm »
I feel  sick to mystomach when I spend what to me is large sums of cash on major purchases like late model motorcycles. When I build things and turn wrenches in my garage I feel gratified, accomplished, and capable. For me it's a no brainer. And Dan, your father certainly would be proud.
James in Tampa. Currently being enjoyed are...04 C10,  86 C10 "Cooper" , 04 Honda vt750 "Christine" . The  only previously owned needing mention would be 74 gt750, I cant believe how many of us had a "water buffalo" !!!

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2015, 05:38:36 pm »
A lot of folks don't understand the hot-rodder's motivation. I used to be famous for building what I called "giant slayers". I would take small displacement motorcycles and build an engine that made them outrun bikes with much bigger displacement engines. My big block KZ-650 (the 831 I mentioned earlier) would outrun any 1000 or 1100cc bike in the neighborhood. I built a Kawasaki H-2 triple that ran 9.60 @ 140 mph in the 1/4mile with stock bore cylinders and would smoke any 4 stroke bike with nearly double the displacement. But many asked me over the years why didn't I just buy a bigger bike. My answer was always the same, "anybody could buy a bigger bike".
But it was the challenge of the build and seeing the results that drove the passion. I'm just proud to be one of the group that thinks outside the box. I don't do major builds anymore but I do enjoy watching and listening to guys like Steve, Dan, Rev, and all the others who also don't like being confined to one size fits all technology. Ok sorry for the interruption, carry on. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 06:31:29 pm by Jim Snyder »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2015, 05:50:01 pm »
Jim -  never an interuption, wish you posted more  :beerchug:  Steve
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2015, 06:48:32 pm »
Jim -  never an interuption, wish you posted more  :beerchug:  Steve

10-4, I agree, more posts from Jim. My one build was it for me. Too lazy (and old) to start another one. AND, I followed the advice I got dozens of times and did buy an FJR. That doesn't mean they were right, it just took me a while to get to that phase.

I do wish I was young enough to start building an airplane though. I have 3-4 designs (some based on existing aircraft, a few very unique) that would be fun to get involved in. Ain't gonna happen though. I'll just dream like my Dad did...

Dan
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 01:35:06 am »
Jim -  never an interuption, wish you posted more  :beerchug:  Steve

10-4, I agree, more posts from Jim. My one build was it for me. Too lazy (and old) to start another one. AND, I followed the advice I got dozens of times and did buy an FJR. That doesn't mean they were right, it just took me a while to get to that phase.

I do wish I was young enough to start building an airplane though. I have 3-4 designs (some based on existing aircraft, a few very unique) that would be fun to get involved in. Ain't gonna happen though. I'll just dream like my Dad did...

Dan

Hey Dan,
   Do some google research on the "Avenger II" seaplane kit. It is a two seater that can land on land or water. Its a pretty cool kit plane.
"Some days you're the windshield, and some days you're the bug" Get used to it cause thats life !!!

Offline Jorge

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2015, 02:11:38 am »
Dan,
That's a neat legacy, and I agree, your dad would be proud.
Our situation was a little different. We couldn't afford a mechanic, so we did almost everything on our car (yes, one), usually on the sidewalk in front of our apartment  :-\. At 52 he bought his 1st car ever, and we taught ourselves from the manuals and with neighbors' help. We even did valve jobs with the car parked on the sidewalk!
I did learn to not be TOO afraid to tackle mechanical jobs, and probably helped point to my education and job.
I still do a lot of stuff, but haven't had the courage to get into Connie's innards... yet.
Steve, the project sounds neat!
Jorge

Offline connie_rider

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2015, 05:53:47 pm »
Hi Guys. I'm back.

Read thru the discussion. Good stuff. But no one answered my question about the 84 mm sleeves.
I think you need to determine what diameter sleeve will fit and then move on to "how to do it"..

Before you say the cost of casting etc sleeves is too much, I agree,,,, But, think a little more out of the box.
  We know that Kawasaki doesn't have the sleeves.
   So don't limit yourself to Kawasaki...
    For instance: perhaps Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha do have 84 mm sleeves,,
       and perhaps Murdoch Racing Enterprises has ways to determine what could be modified to fit inside of the Connie Cylinder block...
     (If such a sleeve exists, Modifying existing sleeves would cost a lot less than casting new sleeves etc).

We know that the block "and" the cases have to be bored to do this (80 mm piston) assembly.
We know that Stock Connie sleeves are too small and the walls would be too thin.
We know that 85 mm sleeves are too big.

So getting back to my question;
If Capo  (thru Murdoch Racing Enterprises) could locate and modify some 84 mm sleeves,
  Would 84 mm sleeves; have a thick enough wall?
                                    leave material in the block for an O-ring?
                                    have adequate clearance between sleeves to allow water flow?

Take a shot at these questions and we can move on.....

Ride safe, Ted                       
   

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2015, 09:46:26 pm »
 Ted - the sleeves I did all the math for measure 84.6mm. I just used inches to make it easier. .6mm is .024".  Adding .o24" to the are between the cyls even IF 84mm sleeves could be sourced isn't enough to address coolant flow and supporting the liner. the only way I see this working is with some type of siamesed liner, but then the issue of coolant flow means potentially piping the rear of the block for flow.

  Can all this be done? yes. will it be reliable / streetable to do what a concours is supposed to do? I really doubt it.  I'm thinking My 78mm bore is about as big as we're gonna get in the concours engne, gven the inability to widen the bore spacing. Steve
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Offline txfatboy

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2015, 10:01:55 pm »
Something else I would like to expand on is increasing the stroke. It wasn't too long ago, welding a crank and machining the rod journals to add some stroke was a common practice to gain displacement and torque...... what the Concours needs most of all.  I know that decreasing the rod/stroke ratio can add unwanted side loading to the pistons, but piston technology has come a long way and anti-friction coatings are available to help with any added friction from the piston skirt. This is a proven technology and has some advantages, mainly, it gives you the ability to choose the rod journal size you want.... to a degree. It could expand the list of available rods and pistons because we wouldn't be stuck with "x" size rod journal. Also, since we are looking to lower the rpm where the engine makes maximum torque, the need for a welded crank to survive at race rpm levels is reduced and the piston side loading isn't as critical. To me, this could be a whole lot simpler and possibly require far less critical machining.  One thing to keep in mind when machining the block for different sleeves, the bores must be perfectly parallel to the swing of the crank/rod. The cylinders can be off center front to back but can not be side to side. Even a small deviation can cause big problems.
Woody

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2015, 01:36:15 pm »
  It's on the radar woody. Can't help but like stroke, as long as you're willing to manage rpms. Steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2015, 05:19:20 pm »
Steve, I agree that 78 mm is probably max.
80 mm Pistons (that I assume Capo has in his possession) would be amazing.
Was trying to see if there were any possibilities. (84 mm sleeves seemed to be the only possible sleeve diameter to make things work)
Good discussion!
Everyone, please keep sending in thoughts!!!

Woody, your idea has a lot of advantage. (I think we briefly) talked about increasing stroke in the original discussion.
We were discussing the 80 mm Piston set up because Capo asked about idea's...
I think he has a set of 80 mm pistons and is aching to see them work.

On the longer stroke,  I think stock Connie Rods, and (1052) pistons from a zrx could be used to develop a ppossible stroke increase amount... (and the resulting engine size)

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline txfatboy

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2015, 12:42:54 am »
Ted, I have a local machine shop that does custom parts fabrication (i.e. aero-space stuff) and they were the ones that did the machine work on my parts for the zx9 fork conversion. I have a zrx1100 cylinder block and I pressed out one of the sleeves to take a look at the inside of the block. I also measured the outer diameter of the cylinder and found it was larger than the Concours cylinder, measured at the bottom of the cylinder. I know the zrx guys build 1109 engines with just an overbore and larger pistons. SOOOOO I am going to take a Concours cylinder block, remove the cylinders, take the zrx cylinders and see if they can machine the Concours cylinder block to be able to fit the zrx cylinders. I will report back as soon as I have an answer. If possible, AND not cost prohibitive, All that would need to be done would be bore the cylinders for the 1109 pistons.
The next item, was to do some research on getting the crank welded and remachined to add 2 mm of stroke. Your suggestion of using the Concours rods with the zrx pistons is exactly what I had in mind. I'm pretty sure APE still welds and machines cranks and I think there are a few other sources as well, although I'm still working on that part. With the added stroke and larger bore, this should get the displacement close to 1200cc's but I have not done the math. I think the added displacement will actually compliment the already too large ports of the stock Concours cylinder head, and with larger carbs should really wake the engine up. In my feeble head, this seems to be the most sensible way to get the maximum amount of displacement using the Concours based engine. But I could be wrong.... ;D I've been working on this possible combination in my head for a while. What do y'all think?
So, what do you guys think?
Woody

2014 V-Max Matt Gray, air box and exhaust mods, reflashed ECU, now over 200 hp. Currently accepting donations for rear tire money.......
1991 Connie, 17 inch wheels, modified swing arm, ZRX1200 forks with full race tech gold valves a springs  and 6pot Calipers, zx9/ zzr1200 hybrid rear shock, 2 min mod and exhaust cam sprocket from SISF, tubular handle bars, hywy pegs, HID headlight and running lights.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2015, 01:02:33 am »
woody, you'll be able to put the zx liners in the connie block. I don't know what it will cost, but I'm sure it can be done just by oversizing the oring grooves and the block bores. if I would have known then what I know now, I expect that's the way I would have gone, back in 06 when I built the 1109. Funny, i've also squirreled away a zx block, but for me it's easy, I'll just have the liners put in my modded block and rock on.

 If you're going to do that, check the stroke and piston length you're going to use; have the liners trimmed as short as possible and then cut them from left to right up to the wrist pin bores to relieve pressure under the piston as it comes down.

 As far as stroking, I'm not really impressed with the connie rods, and stroking isn't going to make them work and better from a durability standpoint, if you get my meaning. Plus the big ends are ridiculously large and heavy, so I'd be expecting to relieve the block innards - and again, skirt length on the liners is an issue. HTH, Steve
 
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2015, 03:30:52 am »
Your going to need to do some serious piston height/rod/wrist pin/deck height study.

With 2 mm of extra stroke, and the piston/rod/stroke adjusted so that the piston tops out at the top of the sleeve,,,, the sleeve has to be long enough to accept the 2 mm (stroke change) at the bottom of the sleeve.

I have no idea where a stock piston skirt stops at BDC, but it might be close already....
So, make sure the piston skirt doesn't hit the crank or come out the bottom of the sleeve.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline txfatboy

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2015, 12:22:26 pm »
Oh yeah, there is much to do for sure. First things first, find out what it will take to machine the Concours block to accept the zrx cylinders. That alone will allow the 1109 combo to become a reality without all the cutting and welding that Steve had to go through. Steve, I'm also not a fan of the Connie rods  but they are a known part of the equation and I just used them as a reference. If I indeed pursue welding the crank, (last check was more than $1000.00 for a finished crank up to 5mm) I won't be limited to the stock rod journal size, so the potential combination of rods/pistons/stroke has grown. Ted, I don't think a 2mm stroke increase will be an issue, remember it's 1mm up and 1mm down to get to 2mm. From what I can see with the wear pattern in the Concours and zrx cylinders, this should not be an issue. What I am curious about; is there a combination that will allow a large increase in stroke, say all the way to 5mm and is there room in the Concours engine cases to accommodate it? APE and Falicon have been modifying cranks for a long time and may have info on what the safe stroke limit is on the older zx10b engine cases. That should be a good starting point.  I should have this worked out in no time..... it only took me 6 years to rebuild my 91.... :o
Woody

2014 V-Max Matt Gray, air box and exhaust mods, reflashed ECU, now over 200 hp. Currently accepting donations for rear tire money.......
1991 Connie, 17 inch wheels, modified swing arm, ZRX1200 forks with full race tech gold valves a springs  and 6pot Calipers, zx9/ zzr1200 hybrid rear shock, 2 min mod and exhaust cam sprocket from SISF, tubular handle bars, hywy pegs, HID headlight and running lights.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2015, 01:00:45 pm »
woody, if it can be done in a x11 case, it can be done in the later c-10 cases- they are the same.   Your mention of different big end diameters rods is true, but offset stroking and trying to get it all to fit is best done with a small big end. I used to build 1/4" stroked toyota 22r/ e engines with isuzut 2600 rods and pistons (yes, my own idea). the isuzu rod had a smaller big end diameter, so cutting the crank to achieve offset was more easily done, and didn't require welding. Plus, it all fit in the case. I ran one for 10 years in my personal 4runner, never an issue, and the guy who bought it has had it for 3.5 years now with no issues.

  BTW, I have the perfect rods for this in shoodaben right now - they're zx1000 chromoly rods from falicon.  Same big end diameter as the c-10 (35mmiirc) and same length, so they're shorter / stronger / lighter than even the zx11 rods.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2015, 02:45:39 pm »
Ted, I don't think a 2mm stroke increase will be an issue, remember it's 1mm up and 1mm down to get to 2mm.

I'm probably over thinking. You builders know more about this than me...

For sake of discussion, Assume that the deck height is the same as a stock engine.
So (TDC) is exactly the same location as it is on the stock engine.

If so, allowance for the extra 2 mm of stroke "all" has to be towards the bottom of the sleeve.

NOTE: The deck height can be changed, (I know it can be lowered, and I know you can add a gasket to raise it), but I don't know if you can raise it 1-2 mm?   

Bottom line, everything has to be perfect...

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2015, 06:42:17 pm »
the only way you'ld keep the same deck height if you added stroke would be to lower the pin compression height in the piston by 1/ the stroke increase, or shorten the rod the same amount. if you did those things, the piston also would need all the stroke increase added to the use of the liner at bdc. steve
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2015, 07:10:36 pm »
Steve your correct.
I know we don't have a rod/piston figured out. In an earlier note we were using a parts match up as a reference.

Parts Match Up: We were assuming stock Connie Rods, (Short rods), and ZRX pistons (Short pistons with high wrist pin location) as
                        a starting point.

If you use the short rod, a piston with high wrist pin location, and use the stock deck height as a target,,,,,  "I think it's possible to determine a stroke increase"?

I think this is the set up you use for your (stock/short Rod) 1052 builds?
On those 1052's builds, I think you "deck" the cylinder .040"?  (As you noted earlier; .040" is roughly 1 mm)

If I am right (about the .040"), this part match up and NOT decking the cylinders , means that the wrist crank pin location can be increased by .040"??
This (.040" increase) would be a .080" stroke increase (which is roughly 2 mm)?

Correct?

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 07:20:57 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: zg1000 BIG bore engine
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2015, 12:51:09 am »
Just keep in mind that you get a whole lot of displacement increase from 2mm bore (5%) but you won't get it from the same amount of stroke. I personally would not even consider a 2mm stroke, the money it will cost will never be recovered in smiles. Steve
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