Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours Discussion (C10 / ZG1000 / 1000GTR) => Concours C10 / ZG1000 General Chat and Tech => Topic started by: batboy on September 17, 2018, 02:44:48 am

Title: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 17, 2018, 02:44:48 am
In my opinion, a free flowing exhaust system is essential if you're looking for more performance. Jim Snider built a header that worked quite well from what I heard. He told me in a message that the head pipes of his header was stock Concours. That probably explains why it pulls so well, it makes a lot of torque with the small primaries (head pipes).

I need more flow, especially at higher RPM, so I had located head pipes for sale from a ZX1000 (4 into 2). Then I just figure out what mufflers to use. I envision a super light weight race cans for when I want performance and stock mufflers when I want to cruise quietly.

The more I thought about it, the more I  wanted to find a real race style header. Suddenly, there it was on the computer screen, an eBay ad for a 4 into 1 header that  was on a 1986 Ninja ZX1000. Things got a little fuzzy and the next thing I knew, I had impulse bought the header. What was I thinking? It won't fit under the fairing or will it? What muffler will give the most power gains? Most importantly, how am I going to explain this to my wife. LOL

Photo of said header:
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: connie_rider on September 17, 2018, 03:19:17 am
The biggest problem is it won't fit under the radiator/fan.
It sticks out from the exhaust ports to much.
The header on a C-10 has to turn down immediately..

I'll send you a PM..

Ride safe, Ted
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 17, 2018, 05:00:27 am
Where is the radiator on the Ninja ZX1000? These bikes do have a fairing too. I might need to look for a photo of a naked ZX1000 to get a good view of  the radiator and how the header pips are routed. Another option is to run without the middle or lower fairing sections (one panel is slightly damaged anyway). I have the bike half naked from working on it and it looks mean right now.


Photo of a 1986 ZX1000 Ninja compared 1988 ZG1000 Concours. Radiator is in about the same spot, but oil cooler and overflow bottle are not in the front on the Ninja. I know the overflow bottle can be relocated. I'm pretty sure the oil cooler can probably be moved too. Nothing's ever easy on these bikes.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 17, 2018, 12:05:31 pm
What if the radiator is moved to the Ninja position using ZX1000 parts (brackets and hardware)? However, I suspect the Concours fairing will probably be the limiting factor. But, plastic can be modified easily. The oil cooler and rad overflow can be relocated without too much problem.


I'll post a couple more shots of the header. Looks like the two inner header pipes have different bends than the outer ones.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Pbfoot on September 17, 2018, 12:19:15 pm
Good luck with the project. Imho the factory mufflers are very restrictive even with a baffelectomy. On my 06 baffelectomied mufflers give me a top speed of 126, 13 inch delkevics with db killers removed give me a top speed of 141. That is with the pilot jets out 1 1/2 turns and a k and n filter.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on September 17, 2018, 05:31:43 pm
i realize the desire for a 4/1 header, but years ago when we began hotrodding this bike, we realized the "dream" didn't work...as simply as you think, it takes much more.. consider the header you bought, and where it runs under the engine... taking the header off to do oil changes is a p.i.t.a..
Back in '04-'05, I picked up a Ninja header made by a company called Ontario... It was a direct retrofit for Ninja's system, but does not fit inside the Concours fairing whatsoever without major modification to radiator, oil cooler, and fairing mounting...

Jim's solution, was to "Morph" the Ontario pipes, onto the Conni head pipes, just after the first bend; cut and weld, it was affectionately called the "Contario" header, and still required "moving stuff around".

IIRC, Jim sent that first one to me, to get it out of his garage, as he kinda got fed up with messing with it...but did make a second one that again, somewhat worked. I have it somewhere in a box, in my rafters.. along with a fresh "never used" Ontario header I intended to put on my naked C10, COGZilla. (Oh, and a couple Ninja heads, with valves and cams, 36mm, 34mm carbs and other $$$$$ trinkets, the stuff dreams were had would be the bomb...)
If you are worried about justifying that minimal purchase you made to the wife at this point.... You are in for real trouble when you start buying and hoarding parts, and she see's the checkbook later...I know, B.T./D.T.
 >:D :)) >:(

in short, I HAVE gone thru the motions (and also the emotions), of the fitup and mods, and find that it is not viable unless you are running the bike without a fairing, and are still willing to sacrafice oil filter access, and some ground clearance...radiator relocation and a means to protect it, oil cooler same thing.... the least worry is the coolant overflow, which is easy to relocate.

so, it no longer falls into the "Invisible/Sleeper" type of mod...  :'( ;) :??:
the horsepower increase also, is not going to be seen from this engine, as it differs greatly from the "Ninja's Horsepower to the ground appeal" due to differences in the cams,cam timing, carbs, chain and sprocket drive.

best of luck should you decide to spend the time,  :great: :beerchug:
I think a better expenditure would be to optimize what the Concours has, without all the expense and headaches, make it run well in stock form, and ride it.. :great: :great:
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 18, 2018, 01:31:53 am
I hear you, brother. I'm doing a lot of thinking about what I should do.

The wife comment was just to add humor. She encouraged me to get the bike and knows I'm adding some stuff. Although, technically I haven't told her about the header yet.  :-X  I was an idiot for buying it.  :-[  But, if I paint it up, I should be able to sell no problem.

A buddy of mine says it looks like it could be a Vance and Hines racing header, which was one of the big names in headers at one time. I have no idea. I don't see anything stamped on the headers when looking at the photos (I have more pics than what I posted). It's more likely a no name clone/copy.

I'll try to get a compression check done tomorrow. That might give me a better idea of what path to take. The scientist in me always wants more data.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Jim Snyder on September 18, 2018, 01:57:38 am
The Ontarion header midpipe was the only one I found that allowed oil filter access, so that's why I chose that pipe configuration. As mentioned in the message I sent you I experimented with larger head pipes but scrapped them when I realized they killed the bottom end power. Too many folks get infatuated with Horse Power at high rpms. But most of our riding is done between 4,000 to 7,000 rpms. The smaller headpipes gave me that. When combined with Steve's torque cams and 2mm jetting my bike was a rocket ship. I have never ridden another stock bore (naturally aspirated) C-10 that ever pulled as hard as mine. Steve can also attest to that as well. But building an exhaust from scratch is not for the weak willed. It will test your patience to the max and cause you to accumulate a large pile of miscellaneous exhaust parts.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 18, 2018, 12:53:27 pm
I've heard mention of oil filter access by a couple of people now. Mine has the spin on conversion if that makes any difference?

Honestly, I don't have the skills to design a header from scratch. My hope was to tweak an existing header and relocate or modify things that got in the way. If this header is totally incompatible, I move on. Plan B is where I stop trying to reinvent the wheel and beg Jim to make me one of his headers. Plan C is to take Ted up on his offer to try his header.

I found a couple outfits on Ebay selling a 4 into 1 header and muffler system. Some claim it'll fit a C-10, some say it might, some claim it won't. I don't know if there are rules for posting links, but if you google the following, it'll pop up for you:

Mac 4-into-1 Black Header/Black Canister Style Exhaust system - 202-0601

It looks like a copy of a Kerker  design, only at 1/3 the cost. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, there is a Kerker 4 into 1 header system that supposedly fits the C10 (for nearly $1k, yikes).

Kerker Chrome 4-into-1 Megaphone Exhaust System - 128-61001
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Pbfoot on September 18, 2018, 01:37:25 pm
Both of the headers you listed are for a KZ700. They will not fit.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 18, 2018, 03:03:17 pm
The real issue with the zx header is that the zx had a 16" front wheel, so the fender was further away from the radiator, which allowed the rad to be further from the engine. the zg uses an 18" wheel, and that pushed the radiator into the engine. if you try to run the zx header on the zg, you'll most like have a competition of 2 objects - radiator and front fender - for the same space. Steve
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: CRocker on September 18, 2018, 03:04:29 pm
The Ontarion header midpipe was the only one I found that allowed oil filter access, so that's why I chose that pipe configuration. As mentioned in the message I sent you I experimented with larger head pipes but scrapped them when I realized they killed the bottom end power. Too many folks get infatuated with Horse Power at high rpms. But most of our riding is done between 4,000 to 7,000 rpms. The smaller headpipes gave me that. When combined with Steve's torque cams and 2mm jetting my bike was a rocket ship. I have never ridden another stock bore (naturally aspirated) C-10 that ever pulled as hard as mine. Steve can also attest to that as well. But building an exhaust from scratch is not for the weak willed. It will test your patience to the max and cause you to accumulate a large pile of miscellaneous exhaust parts.

I can also attest to that performance... :motonoises:
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 18, 2018, 04:04:21 pm
The real issue with the zx header is that the zx had a 16" front wheel, so the fender was further away from the radiator, which allowed the rad to be further from the engine. the zg uses an 18" wheel, and that pushed the radiator into the engine. if you try to run the zx header on the zg, you'll most like have a competition of 2 objects - radiator and front fender - for the same space. Steve


Thanks, that's another fact I didn't know. One could do a 17" wheel swap on the front and go with a different fender. Not sure if that would give you enough room, plus the radiator still needs moved forward and other stuff relocated and the bike would have to run half naked.

I like how a 4 into 1 system sounds and it's lightweight which is a big bonus. But, on the Concours at least, I really do like the looks of the 4 into 2 system. It  seems more symmetrical and pleasing to the eye. Those big heavy stock mufflers have to go though.

Slightly off topic, my rear brake line and other goodies should be delivered today or tomorrow. While waiting on that, I've been trying my hand at fairing repair. Looks like the previous owner must have dropped the bike at one time. I ordered Candy Persimmon Red touch-up paint in spray cans. I have to repaint a small part of the white pinstripe. How and what color paint do I use for the pinstripe (looks off-white to me) or is it pinstripe tape or decal?
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Jim Snyder on September 18, 2018, 06:58:25 pm
The Ontarion header midpipe was the only one I found that allowed oil filter access, so that's why I chose that pipe configuration. As mentioned in the message I sent you I experimented with larger head pipes but scrapped them when I realized they killed the bottom end power. Too many folks get infatuated with Horse Power at high rpms. But most of our riding is done between 4,000 to 7,000 rpms. The smaller headpipes gave me that. When combined with Steve's torque cams and 2mm jetting my bike was a rocket ship. I have never ridden another stock bore (naturally aspirated) C-10 that ever pulled as hard as mine. Steve can also attest to that as well. But building an exhaust from scratch is not for the weak willed. It will test your patience to the max and cause you to accumulate a large pile of miscellaneous exhaust parts.

I can also attest to that performance... :motonoises:
I figured you'd say that just to make me sad  :'(. Don't make me come up there  >:(.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Jim Snyder on September 18, 2018, 07:05:06 pm
I've heard mention of oil filter access by a couple of people now. Mine has the spin on conversion if that makes any difference?

Honestly, I don't have the skills to design a header from scratch. My hope was to tweak an existing header and relocate or modify things that got in the way. If this header is totally incompatible, I move on. Plan B is where I stop trying to reinvent the wheel and beg Jim to make me one of his headers. Plan C is to take Ted up on his offer to try his header.

I found a couple outfits on Ebay selling a 4 into 1 header and muffler system. Some claim it'll fit a C-10, some say it might, some claim it won't. I don't know if there are rules for posting links, but if you google the following, it'll pop up for you:

Mac 4-into-1 Black Header/Black Canister Style Exhaust system - 202-0601

It looks like a copy of a Kerker  design, only at 1/3 the cost. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, there is a Kerker 4 into 1 header system that supposedly fits the C10 (for nearly $1k, yikes).

I have been down all of the avenues you are looking. I have made all of the mistakes before that's how I ended up with the huge pile of headers and exhaust parts I mentioned earlier. Oil filter access is the key grasshopper. Tearing the exhaust off to change oil is not a worthwhile endeavor. I am not in a position to build another pipe right now. I would suggest you give Ted's pipe a try. That will save you months of pain and suffering and will shorten the war and save millions of innocent lives.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 18, 2018, 11:29:09 pm
Yes, sir! *salute*

Can those exhaust head pipe gaskets things (donuts or whatever they're called) be reused or do I need new ones each time?

As for mufflers, I  see Delkevic is popular. What's free flowing, sounds good, and is lightweight? I know, right? I don't ask for much.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Jim Snyder on September 18, 2018, 11:32:55 pm
Yes, sir! *salute*

Can those exhaust head pipe gaskets things (donuts or whatever they're called) be reused or do I need new ones each time?

As for mufflers, I  see Delkevic is popular. What's free flowing, sounds good, and is lightweight? I know, right? I don't ask for much.
You can't beat the Delkevic mufflers. Good sound and great price. And yes the gaskets can be reused if needed. I always turn them around and put a little silicone on to hold them in. But once they get flat you should replace.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: CRocker on September 18, 2018, 11:53:46 pm
I got some exhaust port gaskets...had to get a bag of ten...four are yours...pm me what to do with ‘em...
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 19, 2018, 01:47:53 am
Thanks. PM sent.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Pbfoot on September 19, 2018, 11:23:19 am
I had the 13 inch tri oval Delkevics. I thought they were too loud.. I think the 18 inch are the way to go. I sold the 13's and am currently running a set of Cobra F1's.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 19, 2018, 03:27:16 pm
I had the 13 inch tri oval Delkevics. I thought they were too loud.. I think the 18 inch are the way to go. I sold the 13's and am currently running a set of Cobra F1's.

I sort of figured  the 13"/14" Delkevic would be too loud for me too after I watched some YouTube vids and the cameraman says, "It's really loud," several times.

These babies are lightweight, only 3.35 lbs. for the carbon fiber 14" slip on muffler. The stainless steel 14" and carbon fiber 18" are about 4-1/4 lbs. each. The one that I'm leaning towards is the 18" stainless steel oval that tips the scales at about 5-1/2 lbs. Each stock can is about 10.5 lbs.

So, even the Delkevic SS 18" would reduce weight of the bike by 10 lbs. Going to an AGM battery or better yet, lithium ion battery loses maybe 8-12 lbs of weight. The saddle bags are 6 lbs. each. The weight reduction I just mentioned could easily shave a tenth of a second off your 1/4 mile. Also, figure the Delkevic mufflers are good for a few more ponies because they flow better and have less back pressure, maybe 3-5 HP if you do some jetting.

Compression test: I finally ran a check on all the cylinders and three were right at 190 psi and one was 160psi. Now that sucks. I went back and retested the low cylinder again and this time the needle indicated 189 psi. Cool! What the compression test shows is this is a healthy engine and the rings are good. It's hard for me to justify opening up this motor seeing the bottom end is in awesome shape. I still want to pull the head off and maybe do some hand porting, mainly smoothing and blending as described in the Kawasaki race manual. Probably mill the head a bit to raise CR to 11:1 or so. What about cams? I don't know yet, we'll see what exhaust system I end up with and maybe that will help decide what direction to go.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Jim Snyder on September 19, 2018, 04:44:58 pm
The 18" Delkevics are the way to go. Anything shorter is annoyingly loud. Your compression numbers are good. Not sure what you are trying to do. Are you going to ride this bike, or race it, or what? If you want a daily rider you can save yourself a lot of time and money by going with Steve's 2mm jetting and his torque cams.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: Bud on September 19, 2018, 04:53:48 pm
The 18" Delkevics are the way to go. Anything shorter is annoyingly loud. Your compression numbers are good. Not sure what you are trying to do. Are you going to ride this bike, or race it, or what? If you want a daily rider you can save yourself a lot of time and money by going with Steve's 2mm jetting and his torque cams.
+100
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 19, 2018, 08:07:42 pm
My Concours ]'s not a daily driver, it's my retirement project/toy. I will probably take it to the track once to see what it'll do in the 1/4 mile, but it's not a race bike. I want it to be 50% sport and 25% touring and 25% cruiser, which if I did my math right, should equal 100% fun. But, half the fun for me is personalizing it and making it all mine.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: CRocker on September 19, 2018, 09:04:42 pm
I got some exhaust port gaskets...had to get a bag of ten...four are yours...pm me what to do with ‘em...

Mailed four today...
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 20, 2018, 02:54:10 am
Thanks.
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 22, 2018, 12:57:11 am
I found this posted in an old thread. Don't look like this guy is around anymore. Wish we had a photo of how it looks without the fairing.

As per attachment, a picture of my C10 with a VANCE & HINES header. Can't really compare it to the stock exhaust as I have never ridden or even seen another C10 but these pipes do sound nice…


(http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab75/madpb/P1000839_zpseaf322de.jpg) (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/madpb/media/P1000839_zpseaf322de.jpg.html)
Title: Re: ZX1000 exhaust
Post by: batboy on September 24, 2018, 03:29:08 pm
CRocker sent me some new exhaust seals/gaskets. Thanks again. I will use the old ones to trial fit it and for a test run if I ever get it fully installed. I'll save my shiny new ones for the final time I torque the exhaust header pipes to the engine.

I held the header up and took some measurements. The radiator bracket/stay is definitely in the way and the radiator (and oil cooler) needs moved forwards about a 1/2 inch or so (a full inch would be perfect). The coolant overflow will need to be relocated too. The collector area will also need some fitting and tweaks. The fairing will need to be modified or maybe with the middle and lower panels removed (half naked).

By the time the header was delivered, I had convinced myself this project was going to be too much for me, but now that I have it in hand, I really think I can do it, especially since I see from the last photo I posted that it has been done before. The header has a little outer surface rust on it, but it's not bad. The head pipe bends appear to be all nice mandrel bends. The header looks very well made. The head pipes are about 1/4" larger outside diameter than the stock Concours head pipes. The collector slip fitting is 2-1/2" diameter. I wonder what mufflers will fit?

Pretty cool. I really think I can get this header installed. But, it might be a month or two before I start messing with the exhaust.  I should have taken a photo of me holding it up comparing it, but I was in a hurry to put the fairing back together. The only thing I need to do before taking it out on a test ride is adjust the lowering links down another 1/2". Back later, I plan to take a long ride today.