Author Topic: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma  (Read 5099 times)

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Offline Slybones

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2015, 04:34:03 pm »
As someone mentioned, its not required to use the relay and tie the lines together. In fact I believe someone mention in this thread they just plugged the existing ZZR alternator wiring plug right into the existing Connie wiring harness where the Connie alternator plugs in.

The main part is the input wires are switched ignition. Kawasaki does this already in its wiring harness. No need to change this. The relay design does maintain this though.

In Kawasaki designs, the output from the Alternator is hard wired back to the battery via the 30A main fuse. But its not switched.  This is what the relay design really does is make the alternator output switched too. Given Kawasaki and many other MFG's like my Dodge Truck etc don't seem to seen the need to switch the alternator output back to the battery. I don't see the need here either and the need for the relay.

However there are some differences in Connie and ZZR, ZRX wiring diagrams in this area. On the Connie the 30A fuse is in the J-Box. Output from the alternator goes in Pin3 on the J-Box, through the 30A main fuse and back out Pin2 to the battery. So even though all your accessories and extra driving lights are all hooked straight to the battery, and might even operate with the bike off, its the alternator that needs to replace that juice and it all has to go through the J-Box to get there. Which we know is a weak spot on the Connie. -- Were as on the ZZR wiring diagram they move the 30A main fuse back by the starter relay, and the output of the alternator runs directly to the starter relay. So yes the juice has to run through the 30A main fuse to make it to the battery, and juice to the main bike circuits needs to run through the 30A fuse to get the J-Box, but all that charging current does NOT have to run through the J-Box to get back to the battery and/or run all your accessories.

So in that regard it is best to run the output of the ZZR alternator through an inline fuse and run to the starter relay like other directions tell you.  And you should use an inline fuse as shown. Just don't see that it needs to be switched via a relay.

If it were me, and I had the existing ZZR alternator harness attached, I would remove the pin from the molex connector that is the output pin. Leave the input pin alone. Plug into the stock Connie wiring harness where the stock alternator was unplugged. This gives you the factory switched ignition input. -- Then take the output wire you removed from the plug. Snip off the molex pin, and in an inline fuse, a ring terminal of proper size and route it to the start relay and connect it there.

I personally believe that you can even do that for the Stock connie alternator, as it does what we talked about above. We remove all that charge current that needs to power accessories and driving lights from having to flow through the j-box to get there.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 04:38:28 pm by Slybones »
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Offline Slybones

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2015, 04:35:31 pm »
And yes that is now mine is wired. No relay, and been that way for a long time.
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Offline Slybones

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2015, 04:48:46 pm »
I also did not get the stock harness. So I purchased the plug with the 3 colored wires. I have them tied together as shown, and ran to a pin and plugged into stock Connie harness as mentioned.

After talking with some electricians I know, they explained parallel wires can distribute the load and work well when the wires are of the same type (core material) and the same length.  So I used 2 12ga wires in parallel versus one 10ga wire ( cus I was too lazy and had lots of 12ga in the garage ). I used 2 inline fuse holders, and use 25A fuses in each, with the theory being 50A total. Both ran to the starter relay. For a cover on top the output terminal I used an old brake line banjo bolt cover. Looks almost identical and if I didn't tell you, only a trained eye would know the difference.

As to the parallel writing and 2 - 25A fuses this to has been this way for a long long time and no issues. Never had a fuse blow. And doing some testing back when first installed I did several charts here on the forum showing what I used for load and the volt meter readings.  I don't see the issue here either.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2015, 05:37:34 pm »
As I said, lots of ways to skin this cat.  Rani Dancer's diagram looks pretty simple (as would Slybones be).  I personally think that the main thing that needs to be done is the use of an adequate fuse and adequate wire gauge.  Yes, tying all the three plug wires together and simply connecting to brown wire should be cool. simply plugging the ZZR alternator into the stock Connie plug seems inadequate though I know of a couple that have been done that way.  Using a larger gauge wire and fuse, then tying that into the red white (or simply going to the battery terminal of the start solenoid) would be better.  You wouldn't be trying to pass all of that juice through Connie's 14 or 16 gauge charge wire (white one to alt) and you'd lose the terribly problematic connector that always melts and leaves you stranded.
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Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2015, 05:57:43 pm »
Ay Caramba. Lost found now lost again. Too many choices. Humm... proceed with caution.

Offline Slybones

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2015, 06:02:53 pm »
Oh yeah Rev, forgot about that melting connector issue. Not only would plugging the ZZR alt output into the stock harness as is make this more problematic, I think people with stock Connie alternators have had this problem. Yet another reason to re-route the alternator output to the starter relay even of you just have the stock alternator.
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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2015, 06:07:29 pm »
OK Gottaride, do tis...

Tie the three wire plug wires together and connect them to the brown wire of the stock Connie alternator hookup.

Using at least a 12 gauge or larger (I'd go 10 gauge) connect it to a 50 amp fuse and the other end of the fuse wire to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid.  Done.  That should be the easiest and very reliable hookup I think.  Providing you solder the connection all should be well for nigh unto  forever.
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Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2015, 11:36:43 pm »
Home from work fresh as a daisy...so I`m reading that the relay when used for the ZZRalt mod has been known to melt. Well the hell with that. Fine no problem. The brown wire from the stock connector is a pissy little 14 ga or so so forget that. I`ve got 10 ga copper strand so that's what's getting used. Electrical soldering is no problem so that's all good.

Now I just need to read backwards a few times through the thread. Thanks again.

Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2015, 11:51:44 pm »
By not using the relay and connecting the wires from the alt to the brown C10 connector wire isn't that way pushing the load carrying whatever of that brown wire i.e excessive resistance and heat? Also is that making an increased load on the J-box? I`m learning here not challenging.

I`ve already bought all the heavy duty supplies including a Bosch 50amp relay and a spare for my always with the bike parts kit. Because of the cold dark conditions I sometimes ride in there will be times when I`m maxing out that 600w + output so I`ll opt for dependability and safety over convenience and over simplification.

Oh I`m so gonna catch s*** for this. ;)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:27:09 pm by gottaride »

Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2015, 12:50:36 am »
The heavy load is on the wire from the stud which will go to battery.

Yes, using the relay makes it as reliable as it can get in my opinion.
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Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2015, 02:13:22 am »
Thanks Chuck relay it is.

Offline Slybones

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2015, 02:45:49 am »
By not using the relay and connecting the wires from the alt to the brown C10 connector wire isn't that way push the load carrying whatever of that brown wire i.e excessive resistance and heat? Also is that making an increase load on the J-box? I`m learning here not challenging.

No. The brown wire connected to the 3 pin plug is an input to the alternator for the voltage regulator. There is no load on this.

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Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2015, 03:08:15 am »
Well wouldn't you know I tossed out the rubber banjo bolt covers when the new stainless brake lines got installed. Other than neatly glopping on a mound of black RTV over the stud connection anybody got a suggestion that is a bit more professional? Could try to heat shrink it then RTV so it comes off easier.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:21:09 pm by gottaride »

Offline Rain Dancer

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2015, 11:12:17 am »
Try an auto store...Dorman part#85684, alternator wire boot should work. Or if friendly with the local bike shop, they may have a brake boot laying around they wil give you.

Not trying to highjack the thread, and I have already done this mod but have to redo the wiring due to certain...ummmm... friction issues.....but, as Gottaride said, I just am asking to learn.

Question one:  Could the 50 amp fuse be replaced with a marine manual circuit breaker? (Just so you never have to worry about not having a fuse.)

Question two:  I have read on here about the connector meting. Why? Getting dirty and having resistance? Are the wires too small for the load? I ask because I never had a problem stock or with the ZZR alternator, and wonder if it is a maintenance issue. Only connector I ever had melt was off a stator on and XS11...and when I got it cut apart (never failed) it looked corroded.

I know that a lot of folks have done it just like the diagram Delp published and have had no problems, so Gottaride will be golden.


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Offline Rev Ryder

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2015, 12:46:56 pm »
Try an auto store...Dorman part#85684, alternator wire boot should work. Or if friendly with the local bike shop, they may have a brake boot laying around they wil give you.

Good suggestions Rain Dancer.



Quote
Question one:  Could the 50 amp fuse be replaced with a marine manual circuit breaker? (Just so you never have to worry about not having a fuse.)

Absolutely.


Quote
Question two:  I have read on here about the connector meting. Why? Getting dirty and having resistance? Are the wires too small for the load?

Yes. Exactly.  Predominantly the problem is that the connector gets a little corroded or loose and then begins arcing unbeknownst to the rider until the smoke is leaking out and he/she begins to wonder, "What's on fire?"  But that stock white wire is pretty minimalist in the first place and on nearly all Connies begins to turn brown from burning after a couple of years.  WHy such and important circuit is undersized is beyond me.  Of course it was produced by the same folks that made Murph's and Tammy's HD headlamp harness popular too.  Nothing in the wiring on Connie is oversized.

Quote
I know that a lot of folks have done it just like the diagram Delp published and have had no problems, so Gottaride will be golden.

Like I keep saying... lots of ways to skin this animal.  Brock's works and the instructions are there.  I know others who have simply taken the ZZR alternator and plugged it in and have run it a few years without issue. But that stock connector setup can certainly be improved upon in several ways.  First, the fuse.  If you use that white wire, it travels through a much smaller fused circuit and you'll never know the full potential of the ZZR alternator.  If you tax the system, the fuse will let you down early.  For safety and reliability, IMHO, the most important thing is always the connections.  If you lose the plug and solder/shrink wrap the connection, you're probably going to win the game. If you do the entire deal, BIG FUSE (to use all the ZZR's Electrical energy), RELAY (least necessary of the parts since I don't think this circuit will ever be taxed, but if you join all four wires together it's a must), CONNECTION TO A LARGER AND UNFUSED WIRE TO BATTERY (so that the only fuse in the circuit is your big one), and you'll definitely win and the system should be reliable and deliver all the performance you wanted when you decided to do the deal in the first place.   
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Offline PaulP

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2015, 01:06:22 pm »
Just a caution about putting fuses in parallel: generally it's a bad idea. Much better to put a single 50amp fuse at either end before the split. And for Slybones who is not going to change what he has now, if you ever blow either fuse, replace them both.
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Offline JimBob

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2015, 01:58:50 pm »
Well wouldn't you know I tossed out the rubber banjo bolt covers when the new stainless brake lines got installed. Other than neatly glopping on a mound of black RTV over the stud connection anybody got a suggestion that is a bit more professional? Could try to heat shrink it then RTV so it comes off easier.

That's a pretty standard-designed boot. I've never seen them, but I'd bet that Dorman makes replacement boots - you can probably go to NAPA and get them. Take the alternator in or measure the diameter of the wire and the insulator the boot clips on.

Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2015, 06:21:38 pm »
Napa had a bag of them, tested good fit...and we're off!

Offline Slybones

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2015, 11:05:03 pm »
Just a caution about putting fuses in parallel: generally it's a bad idea. Much better to put a single 50amp fuse at either end before the split. And for Slybones who is not going to change what he has now, if you ever blow either fuse, replace them both.

Most likely I will have to. If I get enough load through one side to slow the fuse, I was thinking the current path will immediately switch to the other side and it will blow moments later.  Meaning that if I had a 35A load and for some reason it all went down one side, and that 25A fuse blew, the load with immediately go down the other wire and that 25A fuse would blow. And I'll have to replace them both.

I suppose one could just crap out. I that case, good idea. Yes I'll do that.

Side note since its been a billion years now, I believe the Connie alt was rated at 28.6A at 14.0V at 6000rpm. The ZZR is rated at 45A at 13.5v at 8000rpm. I have also seen reports from people who had alternators tested that they do not always put out the rated amperage.  Anyway I was finding approx. 525w and still holding 14.0 on the voltmeter at 4000rpm on freeway. Approx 550-560 watts was 13.5v at 4000rpm on freeway. Then I turned on the flashers. While that does pulse on and off, that also sucked it down under 12.8v.

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Offline PaulP

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2015, 12:27:12 am »
I've switched as much of the lighting to LED as I can. Really helps reduce the load on the alternator. I'm looking at the headlamp next.
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Offline gottaride

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2015, 02:41:43 am »
Hey Paul when you find a good performing LED plug and play for the stock headlight assembly let us know eh.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:19:51 pm by gottaride »

Offline PaulP

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Re: ZZR alternator wiring dilemma
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2015, 01:42:46 pm »
Will do. I think I have found one, but money has been tight lately and I can't sneak anything past the head procurer.  ???
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