Author Topic: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash  (Read 1341 times)

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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« on: January 26, 2018, 12:59:20 am »
Here's the breakdown of how I get from stock to the final hp figure (152hp)
The HP numbers are less significant than the actual gains from each change.   :great:

The first chart is just adding a slip-on to a stock C14.

The second chart is adding my ECU flash to the slip-on.

The third chart shows that the gains from adding the slip-on are still basically the same whether the ECU is flashed or not.

The fourth chart is just a comparison of all stock vs. the slip-on and my flash combined.
A 15 ft/lb torque increase at 3000 rpm, 12hp increase at peak, and 20hp at 10,000 rpm.
No other modifications to anything else.

All these charts have been up on my website for the last week or so.
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400.htm
 
I wanted to add them here, so everyone can see them here on the forum.
All my C14 flashes have been touched up slightly on my new dyno... :beerchug:
(very minor changes and are now ready to go for everyone.)   

If anyone has questions about reading the charts, feel free to ask.

Thanks,


Ivan



All dyno tests performed with 92 octane, 10% ethanol, premium pump fuel with no additives of any kind.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 10:53:20 am by Ivan_ipp, Reason: added info and link »

Offline turbo-max

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 01:24:21 am »
what dyno did you use for these numbers?
turbo lag is a courteous head start!    ~Jeff H
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 01:44:39 am »
It's a Dynojet 250i... it's listed in the text at the bottom of each chart.

There's also photos of it in my section here.

Thanks,

Ivan

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 02:44:48 pm »
Ivan, thanks for posting the plots.
I've been comparing the plots a lot...
Here's some questions regarding what I think the plots are telling us. {?}

Your plots are showing more HP gain from the Akrapovic Slip-on's than we've seen from other slip-on's.
 Are the Ak's that much better?  Have you done tests with other brands of slip-on's?

On your "full system and flash" plot, the whole thing is pretty impressive for the fast guys...
But {for guys that like to use the low end torque} the low end took a hit?

Comparing the "stock vs Slip-on":, and "stock vs your flash";
    your plots indicate you get more of a peak HP gain from just the Slip-on than just the flash.
    But, the torque curve for "just the flash" is way more impressive than "just the slip-on".
Yes, I know my question is confusing.
For the guys that didn't see what I'm referring to, Can you touch on that difference?

NOTE: I'm one of the guys that is more interested in {low / mid range} torque improvements, than peak HP.
           So, I'm looking for gains that I would appreciate, more than what others might want.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 02:57:13 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 04:48:26 pm »
I just tested the Delkevic in response to your question and overlaid it with the Akra...
Also a photo of it on the bike. I think it's fair to say that a slip-on is just that.
The difference between the 2 are so small that it would be next to impossible to feel any difference between them

My full system Akrapovic chart is just a test because it's all that I had at the time.
I don't think that there will be many that will actually put that pipe on their bike, plus it gives me a head start on the work that I will have to do once the AreaP shows up.

Yes my programming gives way more usable power, throttle response and improved driveability than adding a slip-on...
Adding a slip-on does nothing for driveability... it just adds sound and top end power.

If I were to make a choice, the flash would be the very first thing that I would do because it solves all the issues in spades.
Most riding situations on this bike take place below 5000 rpm.



Ivan

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 05:04:48 pm »
Thank you.  One last request.
  Can you post a comparison plot of a flash only vs a slip-on only?
  I think that would better show the difference in the torque curves.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 05:31:52 pm »
Here you go Ted....


Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2018, 07:59:41 pm »
Thank you.
That clearly shows the difference between the slip-on's vs flash, and {I think} I can use it to demonstrate the differences in what people ask for.
{Ivan/others; Please correct me if I err}

Ted's theory;
MOST ask,,, how much HP does it make.
    Look at the bright blue HP plot and the dark blue Torque plot. (Slip-on only)
    You will see that the biggest improvement is about 6000-9000 rpm's, but it does have what you asked for {the most peak HP}.

MOST "should" ask,,, how much torque does it make, and at what RPM's.
    Look at the red HP plot and the brown Torque plot. (Flash Only)
    You will see that the biggest improvement is 1800 to 6500 rpm's, and it does NOT have what you asked for {the most peak HP}.

For the {heavy} Concours, on the street. I feel that this is what we need.
I realize that some of you "fast guys" will disagree, and want the most high RPM power you can get.
 But we spend spend 95% of our riding time, below 6000 RPM.
 Plus that low RPM torque will get the bike moving faster,,,, sooner.
 So, always look at the torque curve!

Important Note; I did not include the stock plot in my request. This was done so I could demonstrate how to compare plots.
                           {Comparing the slip-on plot with the flash plot demonstrates where each one shines the most}.
                         If you go back to Ivan's plots {post #1}, and the plots on his site you will see that both the Slip-on
                           and the Flash show marked improvements over stock.
                         So, both options are a good choice over stock.


PS: If you look at the "stock" plot I think you will see it offers the least everywhere.
      If you look at the "slip-on and flash" plot I think you will see it offers the most everywhere.
      If you look at the "full system and flash" plot I think you will see it offers the most in mid and top, but has less torque at lower RPM's.

Maybe {if we ask real nice} Ivan can add those to the last plot?   >:D

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:16:02 am by connie_rider »
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2018, 08:35:31 pm »
I don't want to put the Akrapovic ZX14R system into the mix here as it's not representative of the AreaP system
(which is an unknown at this time as to how it performs below 5000 rpm with my work)

They just pushed the delivery date ahead again until late February/early March... (Back to waiting again)


Ivan

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2018, 08:37:40 pm »
Engine oil is always 10w-40.... I always use the recommended oil weight in the manual.

Ivan

Offline Turtle

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2018, 09:46:38 pm »


My full system Akrapovic chart is just a test because it's all that I had at the time.
I don't think that there will be many that will actually put that pipe on their bike, plus it gives me a head start on the work that I will have to do once the AreaP shows up.





Ivan

Ivan, I'm sitting on a boxed up Akrapovic full titanium for a ZX-14.  Do you know if the head pipe and mid-pipe sizes are the same as the system you used?

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2018, 10:24:17 pm »
Yes they are the same Turtle... all Akrapovic's ZX14 systems are the same dimensions and collector volume including the header for duals.

Is there a chart that you would like to see?
Sorry if I was dismissive of your setup.
BTW, I have a complete flash for that pipe ready to go.... just finished it last week.  :beerchug:


I like to keep things simple and easy to understand... So with that in mind....
If Ted or I  have confused anyone, please ask and I am happy to explain.


Ivan

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2018, 10:41:08 pm »
Yea, I have question's.
Was Ted's theory close to your thoughts?
What did I miss, or what should be added?

Ride safe, Ted

Update: I went back and added an important note to post #7. {go there to see}
            I don't want anyone to think I'm saying the slip-on is a bad choice. It clearly is better than stock.
            My intention was to show how to read and use the plots.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 10:59:31 am by connie_rider »
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2018, 11:45:57 pm »
It's all good Ted...  :great:

I was just worried that some might get lost in some of the interpretation.
Hence my post.

BTW, the bike post flash will easily lift the front wheel at 3800 rpm with less than 1/2 throttle if you deliberately bump the throttle quickly.
So much more responsive compared to a stocker.

Ivan

Offline khager01

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2018, 12:55:38 am »
Great thread here with a lot of good questions and answers. Thanks Ted and Ivan. 

 I was wondering the same thing when I first got my C14.  Do I spend my money on the flash first,  or slip-on?  Which will give me more performance?

I knew within a few miles after i got my ECU back from Ivan that I made the right choice.  I spend most of my time below 6K too,  and the power and torque there is incredible.  Yes it does lift the front wheel much easier now, as a matter of fact I have done it a few times accidentally while getting on it in traffic. The smoothness and driveability are just icing on the cake. 

Probably end up getting a Vance and Hines slip-on or Delkevic tri-oval if they end up making a 17" one with the new tip like they have on the 13". 

I am more than satisfied with the performance now so the slip-on will be for looks, sound, and weight savings in that order.
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Offline turbo-max

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2018, 02:17:04 am »
It's a Dynojet 250i... it's listed in the text at the bottom of each chart.

There's also photos of it in my section here.

Thanks,

Ivan

gotcha,i didn't catch that in the charts.
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Offline Turtle

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2018, 11:28:29 am »
Yes they are the same Turtle... all Akrapovic's ZX14 systems are the same dimensions and collector volume including the header for duals.

Is there a chart that you would like to see?
Sorry if I was dismissive of your setup.
BTW, I have a complete flash for that pipe ready to go.... just finished it last week.  :beerchug:


I like to keep things simple and easy to understand... So with that in mind....
If Ted or I  have confused anyone, please ask and I am happy to explain.


Ivan

Thanks for the pipe info, I'll be in touch soon. :great:  I been watching your site and understand the charts completely and look forward to the big torque jump at 2400rpm and up. I'm across town from Ted and commute in, that extra snap will come in handy when needed.  :motonoises:

« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 11:34:40 am by Turtle »

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 11:34:52 am »
Ivan, in one of my earlier posts I asked; Your plots are showing more HP gain from the Akrapovic Slip-on's than we've seen from other slip-on's.   Are the Ak's that much better?  Have you done tests with other brands of slip-on's?
You replied {post #5} and showed that a Delkevic gave about the same amount of improvement.

Thank you, but, I'm still a little confused. I think I didn't explain my question enough.
  On other dyno tests we've seen, a slip-on only increased the power by about 3-5 HP.
  On your tests, that improvement is about 7-9 HP.
  Is the Dynojett 250 somehow showing the improvements better?

I am not doubting your info. I see the plots and know their real..
Just wondering why your plot numbers are higher?
Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 12:07:03 pm »
Thanks Turtle !!  :great:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Hi Ted,

Your answer is explained in detail in this thread...
http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/c14-slip-on-dyno-results/

Any dyno should show the same results if the test procedure is the same as I outlined.


Ivan

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2018, 02:18:26 pm »
For me, the Ivans reflash is worth ten slip ons.   

If it were like the bikes in the old days, it might be different.  From what it sounds like the older bikes were fine with a powercommander. Everything else was mostly ok, but there were fueling issues.

The newer bikes would still have fuel cut, even if the slip on added 25 horsepower.  I know it does'nt...but "What if"

In this thread, there is a ton of information Ivan mentions.....I have to assume he takes care of issues within these areas, too.

http://forum.cog-online.org/ivan's-performance-products/ecu-fuel-and-ignition-calculation-differences-gen1-through-gen3/

So, the slip on would have no ability to take care of any of that. 

Its much more fun to pay for something that shiny, and makes the bike sound better,  but that Ivan reflash cost is the best money Ive spent on either bike.
Ivans Ecu reflash, Brembo front rotors

Offline turbojoe78_MA

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2018, 02:58:34 pm »

Thank you, but, I'm still a little confused. I think I didn't explain my question enough.
  On other dyno tests we've seen, a slip-on only increased the power by about 3-5 HP.
  On your tests, that improvement is about 7-9 HP.
  Is the Dynojett 250 somehow showing the improvements better?

Ride safe, Ted

Ted, I was wondering the same thing.  I posted some dyno runs of my bike compairing the stock exhaust, then a 18" CF Delk with and without baffle.  The bike was run first with the stock exhaust, three pulls with the second pull having the highest numbers. (numbers dropped a little on the third pull as Ivan noted happens when the bike gets too hot.)

With the bike still on the dyno and the fan blowing at the front of the bike I changed the exhaust to the Delk without the baffle.  The bike sat for about 20 minutes while changing and waiting for cooling before we did 3 more pulls, with the second again showing the highest numbers.

I then installed the baffle, waited another 20 minutes with the fan blowing and did another 3 pulls.

My bike only showed a gain of 3.5 HP with the slip-on and no baffle over the stock can, and lost 1 HP over stock with the baffle.
I think most manufacturers are claiming 4 to 6 HP gains with their slip-ons.

Ivan, any thoughts?

Joe
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2018, 03:57:58 pm »
None....

Maybe try it again with a stock ECU.


Ivan
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 04:02:49 pm by Ivan_ipp, Reason: added info »

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2018, 04:28:44 pm »
Thanks Ivan/all.. (enjoying the discussion)
As I said, I am not doubting your info. I see the plots and know their real..
I asked the question because I wanted to discuss why there is a increase in HP on your dyno.
  ie; I have an evil plan... {see it at the at bottom of note}  :-[

I'll start with; I agree. Procedure is everything when doing testing.
                                 Many of the tests {that others contributed over the years} did not follow your procedure.
                     I agree that the ultimate number isn't as important as the amount of change.
                     I also agree; that the numbers between dyno's should be close if everything is the same.
                     I partially disagree with you on;
                         Any dyno should show the same results if the test procedure is the same as I outlined.

                                I say this because; each dyno has variables that effect it's numbers slightly. (parasitic losses)
                                                             test conditions {Temp/humidity/barometric pressure/etc} effect the numbers.
                                                             other variables {oil weight/fuel/bike condition/tires/etc /etc} also effect the numbers.
                                                                 All of these effect the numbers that a dyno produces.
                                                                 Lastly, the tests would be done on a different bike, which also throws in variables.

What I suspect is, you have a new dyno, with better program, in a controlled environment, with improved capabilities, and your dyno is newly calibrated. In your test's there could be unknown variables that may contribute to your higher numbers. {for instance, you may have fresh oil/different fuel/other?}
NOTE: Most of the dyno's we see plots from {including mine} are not new, nor do they have a current calibration.

Bottom line; All of this could mean your dyno is giving us more accurate numbers than others.

My ie; In another discussion I suggested; don't ignore the 3-4 HP from adding a slip-on, as it is more beneficial that folks realize.
          If it turns out that the HP gain is 6-7 HP, not 3-4,,, it means,, I was more correct than I thought!! <sly grin>  :great:

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 04:33:55 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2018, 04:39:03 pm »
The only variable in the test is that Joe did it with a non stock ECU....

Try the same exact test as I outlined with a stock ECU and the results will be the same. (within 1 hp)

Let the engine cool completely... (oil temp too).

Ivan


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Re: Dyno 152 hp - Slip-on and Ivans ECU flash
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2018, 04:55:08 pm »
Ted, if you look on Ivans site he has a graph comparing old/new dyno runs on a C14.