Author Topic: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests  (Read 1132 times)

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Offline Ivan_ipp

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VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« on: February 16, 2018, 09:22:42 pm »
Folks,

I just did these tests today as it was a little slow this Friday afternoon.

Not even the magazines have given you these tests and a window to see this information.

The first chart is full camshaft advance vs. full camshaft retard... (the 2 extremes of the VVT actuator)

The second chart shows the same 2 runs with my programming added to contrast the two extremes... (my cam timing)

The third chart shows the gains that I achieved by adjusting the VVT.

Obviously, proper cam timing is essential to peak performance, but having this variable makes the best of both worlds... especially when I can adjust the settings to make the best spread of the power at all rpms.    :great:

I chose to use my tuned file for these tests because it shows the effects better at the extremes and also with the raised rev-limiter

Ive added a new C14 VVT page to my website for everyone

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/ZG1400_vvt.htm

Enjoy,



Ivan


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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 06:00:52 am »
Wow!
That second plot really shows how well they did.

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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2018, 10:37:24 am »
Yes, except with stock programming, you only get cam timing similar to run # 106 unless you give a lot of throttle...
And you don't get full retard above 9000 rpm either which gives max high rpm power - all part of the part of the original detuning.
BTW, retarding the intake cam increases piston to valve clearance...

With my programming, you have cam timing from run # 108 all the time without having to pin the throttle to get it.
The engine doesn't work as hard and runs cooler too... more efficiency means longer engine life and better mileage too.
The whole bike feels a lot lighter... not like a heavy tank when just riding normally.

VVT works by throttle position vs. rpm on this bike

See the attached stock ECU table... (resolution redacted of course)
There are others that control it's function too, but this one shows the basic programming.



Knowing how this system functions makes it easy to understand how a botched valve adjustment can lead to a blown engine.


Example;

Mechanic installs C14 intake cam one tooth advanced by accident.... under light to moderate throttle he would notice nothing wrong and could use the bike indefinitely like this as long as he never gives more than 50% or more throttle.....

Once the throttle is opened more than the amount needed to push the cam into full advance position, there would be mechanical valve to piston contact and failure.
 
Once there are broken parts in the cylinder destroying things and jamming things cam(s) valves ....etc... and cannot rotate due to mechanical interference, the weakest link will give in.... at high rpm, all kinds of things will shear off and get destroyed.

The key here is that there are 2 of these failures that are documented here on this board and the common link is that they both failed after valve adjustment. One failed immediately.....

The other one took longer, I suspect due to gentle riding habits.

One was due to his own mistake while adjusting his own valves.
http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/died-and-won't-start/


The other paid a mechanic to do the valve adjustment...

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/2009-c14-went-into-limp-mode-last-night/

Follow up here:

http://forum.cog-online.org/concours-14-zg1400-general-chat-and-tech/found!!!-nybiomed's-'09-nonrunning-issue-has-been-determined!!!/


Horrible story for both of them....  :(



Ivan

Offline lather

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2018, 12:30:58 pm »
Knowing how this system functions makes it easy to understand how a botched valve adjustment can lead to a blown engine.


Example;

Mechanic installs C14 intake cam one tooth advanced by accident.... under light to moderate throttle he would notice nothing wrong and could use the bike indefinitely like this as long as he never gives more than 50% or more throttle.....

Once the throttle is opened more than the amount needed to push the cam into full advance position, there would be mechanical contact and failure. Once the intake cam cannot rotate due to mechanical interference, the weakest link will give in.... If it breaks at high rpm, all kinds of things will shear off and get destroyed.

The key here is that there are 2 of these failures that are documented here on this board and the common link is that they both failed after valve adjustment. One failed immediately.....

The other one took longer, I suspect due to gentle riding habits.

One was due to his own mistake while adjusting his own valves.

The other paid a mechanic to do the valve adjustment...

Horrible story for both of them....  :(


Ivan
Fascinating. Sounds like my  camshaft failure on the first hard acelleration 500 miles after I did a valve adjustment. Extcept mine was the exhaust side.

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2018, 01:59:17 pm »
I looked at your thread...

Just because the exhaust cam bolts broke, it doesn't mean that is the cause of the failure.

Anything that would be jammed in the cylinder could have caused the cam to stop

If the bike started and idled fine and there was no problem until you gave a lot of throttle, then you can be sure that my description above is correct.

I've edited my post above to be more clear... you may want to re-read.


Ivan

Edit: 2/23/18, after some discussion with you, I do not think that this applies to you, your failure is due to something else.... disassembly of your cylinder head will give a lot more info in your case.

Offline NYbiomed

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 03:16:48 pm »
I'm one of the guys who needed to replace the cylinder head after a valve adjustment was done by a mostly former COG'r now, yeah that one set me back a bunch. I didn't know it at first, but i've come to conclude it was human error- as there is almost NO instance or example of a spontaneous cam/VVT failure on a C14 with 13k miles...or so. There were also following screw ups over the next 18 months that clued me in to a somewhat reckless/unfocused behavior in the guy that led to an ending of the friendship and the loss of several $1000/botched work....a hard lesson learned by myself unfortunately.

 :(
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 03:50:56 pm »
I'm one of the guys who needed to replace the cylinder head after a valve adjustment was done by a mostly former COG'r now, yeah that one set me back a bunch. I didn't know it at first, but i've come to conclude it was human error- as there is almost NO instance or example of a spontaneous cam/VVT failure on a C14 with 13k miles...or so. There were also following screw ups over the next 18 months that clued me in to a somewhat reckless/unfocused behavior in the guy that led to an ending of the friendship and the loss of several $1000/botched work....a hard lesson learned by myself unfortunately.

 :(


Thanks very much for your reply....

All my contacts at Kawasaki have also confirmed to me that there are no records of any VVT actuator failure as well.
I was told that all the failures have been due to mechanic error during camshaft installation.

Can you please describe for me (in as much detail as you can) the conditions that took place at the time of failure?

Rpm range, how much throttle you were giving it, going uphill, downhill .....give as much details as you can please.

Are you an aggressive rider, a gentle rider?


Thanks again,


Ivan

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 04:20:49 pm »
I recall the entire situation somewhat well- It happened within 25 miles of an oil change about a month or so (and around 2500 miles) after the valve adjustment. I was with a friend (+150lbs or so) riding pillion, so I was probably using a bit more wrist due to the extra weight. I usu like to ride aggressively off the line, to make sure I get in front of traffic, then ease up...but it was flat, prolly rolling about 6/7k on the RPMs....and definitely accelerating. To that point, I was only riding the bike a couple months and was still feeling her out, I prolly wasn't really ripping into her yet and with someone riding pillion too...

I initially thought it odd "my new friend" wanted to do the valve adjustment early (@10.3k miles)- I certainly didn't know or suggest it, as I was just getting back into riding after a 5yr hiatus and the C14 platform was completely new to me- and the heaviest/most powerful bike I had ever ridden/owned.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 04:28:06 pm by NYbiomed »
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 04:31:21 pm »
Makes perfect sense..

So no high rpm shifting near or at redline?

My only other question....

Where is the failed part that was determined to be the cause?


Thank you,


Ivan



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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 04:33:00 pm »
Not that it's relevant to the failure being talked about in this thread.

But I read on a site that multiple bounce of the C14 on the limiter could result in a VVT failure. I can't seem to find my way back to that link.

Is there any truth to that?

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 05:59:04 pm »
Makes perfect sense..

So no high rpm shifting near or at redline?

My only other question....

Where is the failed part that was determined to be the cause?


Thank you,


Ivan

I'm pretty sure the resulting VVT failure/part is in the possession of SISF. SISF somehow correctly predicted the VVT failure happened soon after an oil change...and it did. I no longer recall the reason stated...although I now recall that the VVT is driven by oil pressure...I think? The resulting draining of the oil precipitated the events that were to follow. With the ECU throwing NO ERROR codes, it was difficult to diagnose without ripping into the head. It was only AFTER a Kawi dealer "sent the injectors out for cleaning" that a tech who just returned back from training, made a comment "I think I know whats wrong with it" and led to the discovery of the VVT fail.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 06:07:54 pm by NYbiomed »
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 07:09:33 pm »
Makes perfect sense..

So no high rpm shifting near or at redline?

My only other question....

Where is the failed part that was determined to be the cause?


Thank you,


Ivan

I'm pretty sure the resulting VVT failure/part is in the possession of SISF. SISF somehow correctly predicted the VVT failure happened soon after an oil change...and it did. I no longer recall the reason stated...although I now recall that the VVT is driven by oil pressure...I think? The resulting draining of the oil precipitated the events that were to follow. With the ECU throwing NO ERROR codes, it was difficult to diagnose without ripping into the head. It was only AFTER a Kawi dealer "sent the injectors out for cleaning" that a tech who just returned back from training, made a comment "I think I know whats wrong with it" and led to the discovery of the VVT fail.



The point that I am showing here is that your part did not fail from a high rpm shift, and that it failed in the rpm range that the VVT goes into it's maximum cam advance as can be seen in the VVT ECU table that I posted above, and also by your comments about your throttle application in your above post.

A simple compression test by the dealer or anyone else would have shown that you had some bent valves.

Parts like this shear of and break after mechanical contact, not before.

Thanks very much for your comments,


Ivan

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 11:59:38 am »
Wow,
l love it!  This place is just like FaKebook now. Lots of people making assumptions about something they know nothing about with no evidence or sequence of events whatsoever. Good thing I no longer frequent this forum anymore. Yes, I did the work on his bike. NO! the valves never contacted the pistons and NYBiomed has photos of the PRISTINE pistons of his engine from when the head was removed.    OK FOLKS TIME FOR NEW ASSUMPTIONS AND BLIND ACCUSATIONS!!!

Matt
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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 12:20:52 pm »
Valves don't bend by themselves...

Mild contact won't leave any marks. (for other people that are reading this)

My assessment stands 100%


Ivan



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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2018, 03:22:05 pm »
Wow,
l love it!  This place is just like FaKebook now. Lots of people making assumptions about something they know nothing about with no evidence or sequence of events whatsoever. Good thing I no longer frequent this forum anymore. Yes, I did the work on his bike. NO! the valves never contacted the pistons and NYBiomed has photos of the PRISTINE pistons of his engine from when the head was removed.    OK FOLKS TIME FOR NEW ASSUMPTIONS AND BLIND ACCUSATIONS!!!

Matt

Awfully defensive Matt...and just for the record, I didn't call you out, ID you, or even really blame you. s*** happens. BUT, there is NO HISTORY of spontaneous VVT/cam fails, especially on a low mileage bike- so there will always be speculation. I've learned to live with it and our friendship went on for another 18 months- before several other things factored in.

I no longer have photos, but if Matt does, please post for all to see, and most importantly, for others to learn from.
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Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 04:18:54 pm »
The purpose of this thread is meant to educate others about how this system works and how cam timing effects power delivery.

Its purpose is also show everyone that VVT actuators don't break from high rpms, they get damaged as a result of mechanical interference when the resistance of the camshaft exceeds the strength of the fasteners that are holding it.... due to mechanical interference.

The cam chains are unbeliveably strong on these bikes as can be seen in my quoted post below

Having the knowledge of how the VVT system works, I can only stress that extra attention is needed when installing the cams for any reason on this bike.
But, it's not new news... the magazines reported back in the day, that the system works by throttle position and rpm.... and that the ECU controls it.
I don't know if it's in the service manual, but, I don't need to either.

Using the service manual, or direct instruction will guide you around the critical areas if you are doing this yourself and haven't done it before.

Even the most seasoned mechanics make mistakes sometimes...




I put this on the other board... I guess this is a good time to post it here as it was one of my mistakes when I was younger:


Quote
Many years ago (1999), I had customer's ZX9R blow it's motor on my dyno after I installed one of my jet kits...

The cause of it was the locator tab on one of the clamps that holds the carb to the head
see attached photo that I took from ebay today

One of the clamps popped off when I took the carbs off, and during the handling of the clamp when re-installing it onto the intake boot the locator tab popped off (weak spot weld) and fell into the #4 cylinder unknown to me at the time.


When I started the bike it was just quiet as a mouse... I revved it a few times and took it around the building to my dyno room at my old shop... rolled up onto the dyno, strapped it down.. got everything set up, and proceeded to make the pulls... on the 2nd pull it blew at 12000 rpm.

Apparently what happened was the little tab embedded itself in the piston crown... when it came out, it got caught in one of the exhaust valves, the head came off the valve and broke the other 3 valves in that cylinder... the head split... the valve head ended up in another cylinder... There was so much damage to the rods (bent) and the crank/clutch gear teeth were bent due to the force when the head split. What was most amazing, the cam chain didn't break !!

My insurance was very good about paying for the parts and labor at the time, and the customer was fixed up and running fine 3 weeks later... he wasn't even mad at me and is still a customer till this day.

That was the only direct experience with a blown motor that I have ever had... other than an Indian 2 stroke that broke a piston on a friends dirtbike when I was about 13.


Ivan

Offline Ivan_ipp

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 04:25:48 pm »
Not that it's relevant to the failure being talked about in this thread.

But I read on a site that multiple bounce of the C14 on the limiter could result in a VVT failure. I can't seem to find my way back to that link.

Is there any truth to that?


Not at all in my opinion...


Ivan

Offline rcannon409

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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 06:32:07 pm »
I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but ill try.

I have my cams out, adjust my valves, and slide them back in.

If i missed the alignment by one tooth, would the bike still run pretty well

EDIT>>>>>

I went back and studied the charts, and clicked on the links.  It answered the questions I had...for now.

I'll post back if I think of anything else, but for now, i'm ok.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 08:50:58 pm by rcannon409 »
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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 10:58:22 pm »
Wow,
l love it!  This place is just like FaKebook now. Lots of people making assumptions about something they know nothing about with no evidence or sequence of events whatsoever. Good thing I no longer frequent this forum anymore. Yes, I did the work on his bike. NO! the valves never contacted the pistons and NYBiomed has photos of the PRISTINE pistons of his engine from when the head was removed.    OK FOLKS TIME FOR NEW ASSUMPTIONS AND BLIND ACCUSATIONS!!!

Matt

Awfully defensive Matt...and just for the record, I didn't call you out, ID you, or even really blame you. s*** happens. BUT, there is NO HISTORY of spontaneous VVT/cam fails, especially on a low mileage bike- so there will always be speculation. I've learned to live with it and our friendship went on for another 18 months- before several other things factored in.

I no longer have photos, but if Matt does, please post for all to see, and most importantly, for others to learn from.
At what point does does something like this not be the fault of the mechanic ?, Is there a certain amount of miles ?. 2500 miles is a LOT of ride time. To put into perspective 2500 miles is like driving from central Florida to Boston Massachusetts & back !.
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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2018, 12:04:43 am »
Valves don't bend by themselves...

Mild contact won't leave any marks. (for other people that are reading this)

My assessment stands 100%


Ivan

Ivan,
Only one problem with your assessment other than the fact it is completely wrong. There was not one bent valve in the head on either side, Intake or exhaust. I did tear down the old head and check them all after the head was replaced. There have been several documented failures of the VVT. I do not have a definitive reason for their failures and I can speculate like you. However, since I am the only one with first hand knowledge of this particular failure, asking me for specific information regarding this particular failure,  PRIOR to making your, (incorrect), assessment would probably have been a smart(er), move on your part.
Now back to the regularly scheduled forum drivel.....

Matt
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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 12:13:02 am »
If Rick were my customer, I would have assumed any expenses that he incurred for all the parts and diagnosis as a result of any work that I did for him. I would either pay out of my own pocket, or submit it to my insurance.

There is nothing that you can say that would ever make me believe you in this case.  :rotflmao:



For everyone else that's reading this,

There are no documented cases of failing VVT actuators with KMC that were ever authorized for replacement under warranty....
I just spoke to the most senior guy in the department that authorizes warranty claims while at the dealer picking up a new bike today.
(When you know the right people, you can get the correct information.)

He also informed us that there are many of these bikes that have extended warranty in addition to the 36 month warranty that it comes with.... never a claim for a VVT actuator since it's release in 2008.

BTW, this is the 2nd time that I have asked them about this part due to other "claims" about it's "weakness" which doesn't exist.
 

Ivan





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Re: VVT - Variable valve timing - Dyno tests
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 11:36:06 am »
The only other way that enough force could be put against the VVT actuator to cause it to get damaged and internally fail would be if the cam partially seized in the head. (no valve contact)...

1) The resulting smeared aluminum would block the oil supply to the cam journal, and VVT actuator causing damage to the head and cam.

2 )The resistance to rotation of the seizure would cause the oil to be squeezed out of the VVT actuator as it moves internally until it contacts the end of it's travel.... then continues to twist and damage the locating slot where it mates to the camshaft.

The cause of this scenario happening would be from either mixing up the numbered cam caps, or one or more of their locating dowel pins being missing
(both will cause improper cam to cap clearance/alignment)

Improperly installed/damaged oil supply pipes/o-rings


Either way... the VVT actuator is not the cause... it's the result.... and it certainly didn't fail from a high rpm shift based on Rick's description of the conditions at the time of failure.



It's too bad that Rick never got his old parts back so he could have gotten a 2nd opinion from another shop.

Here's a few photos I found on the web to help others understand the parts involved: