Author Topic: ABS vs Non-ABS  (Read 464 times)

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Offline Bud

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ABS vs Non-ABS
« on: September 08, 2018, 10:29:51 am »
There was a bit of discussion in the C14 section about ABS.  I ran into this video that I thought did a good job of showing the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 10:33:12 am by Bud »

Offline Freddy

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2018, 11:46:47 am »
 :great:  The real determinant though, is to experience the difference between wheel lockup and not.  Give me ABS every day.
The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline Rain Dancer

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2018, 02:28:50 pm »
I was in this discussion on another forum. ABS is great, but over all it is making an awful lot of riders lazy. I saw a thread defending ABS on the other forum where folks would say they loved it, saves their butt 2-3 times A DAY! Others would say they just mash the brakes and activate the ABS all the time. I took an advanced riding course with my wife, and on my C10 I could out brake the BMW's with ABS because the riders never pushed their abilities feeling ABS will save them if needed. A lot of safety technical advances are great if they are used as a safety net, but it seems most people use them to dumb down their ability.
"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."  Dennis Miller

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Offline Dark Helmet

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 11:42:33 am »
Just joined the Forum, first post.  Two years ago I had a very large delivery truck make a left in front of me on a 55mph 4 lane.  My 2006 BMW GSA did not have ABS and while panic stopping I had the rear wheel locked up but not the front.  I could tell I wasn't going to get stopped in time and that if I hit the truck it would be in the passenger door, which would have been very bad, or, I would hit the truck in the cargo box, which was pretty high up.  I would have had my torso hit the cargo box and my lower half would have gone under.  Not a good option.  I laid it down and I stopped just short of the truck but my bike hit it.  I broke ten bones and had a punctured lung.  I think ABS would have helped, and have decided that I will always buy bikes with ABS.  When you are in a panic stop like that its not the same as practicing panic stops.  You have too much going through your head trying to find ways out or minimize damage to be 100% focused on braking.

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 02:10:27 pm »
ABS isn't making riders lazy. Dual Clutch transmissions and electric bikes DO!
Since 1995 decline of almost 21% of manual gear box equipped cars in US market. That is SOLE indication of American motorists becoming indolent.
Note, ABS hasn't declined since then. On contrary, ABS has increased its spectrum of use.
BMW has already produced a self-driving motorcycle. Tested it on some track.https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17847508/bmw-motorrad-self-driving-motorcycle
Can you see an enthusiast riding in a self-driving mode? Perhaps an nonfan of motorcycle who wants to impress peers?
Self-driving tech is THE major contributor to declining enthusiasm among motorists who are more interested in tech (bluetooth, navi and rear view cameras) which are contributing factors to drivers indolence!
DO not confuse safety item like ABS with indulgence of bluetooth or rear view camera!
Americans, it is FACT, are more disinterested in driving dynamics than they are in tech that contributes to brain atrophy!

Cheers!
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 02:14:21 pm by RoadKillHeaven »

Offline lather

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 02:25:12 pm »
I still prefer a bike without ABS :motonoises: half a million mile without it and I'm still here.

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 02:32:59 pm »
I still prefer a bike without ABS :motonoises: half a million mile without it and I'm still here.
Not when your front tire meets cold/wet concrete slab sprinkled with post-accident antifreeze/oil mix.   :o
All my bikes were non-ABS. C14 is the first ABS. I am strong proponent of this tech on any motor vehicle, more-so on a bike.

Offline Road Runner

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 12:08:01 am »
I still prefer a bike without ABS :motonoises: half a million mile without it and I'm still here.
Not when your front tire meets cold/wet concrete slab sprinkled with post-accident antifreeze/oil mix.   :o
All my bikes were non-ABS. C14 is the first ABS. I am strong proponent of this tech on any motor vehicle, more-so on a bike.
+1 ABS  :great:
David L. Hamil
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Offline Cal

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 02:23:01 am »
If ABS kicks in you have done something wrong, or missed an indicator that you should have already been going slower or begun stopping sooner.

As a CSC instructor and examiner for M2 to M Motorcycle licensing in Ontario, Canada - i have seen students come on course to play/practice first thing in the day and use ABS to the max as that is what they thought they should do.  We give them a number of exercises in a closed parking lot - one of which of course is an emergency stop area.

I am now specifically instructing riders to work on their emergency skills for braking rather than using the ABS abilities they paid for.  It is a totally different set of skills (ABS takes no skill at all!) and for sure proper emergency braking beats ABS braking anytime for a skilled and competent rider.

Weight transfer MUST occur to the front wheel (TIRE!) to allow expansion of the contact patch to increase traction.  Increased traction = more braking power able to be applied.  That has to be gradual (quick gradual - but don't grab the front brake!)

ABS turns brake function off then on (many times/really quickly) so that expansion of tire to pavement never occurs (or is minimised once enabled) if you just grab and trust your ABS.  it may keep you upright and get you stopped but it will never beat proper manual application of brakes for shortness of path!

Scan to stay out of harms way.  Practice emergency braking several times each year in controlled areas.  Realise you are doing the first part wrong if you use the emergency stopping skills you have practiced more than once or twice each riding year (more if your lucky to be in a high mileage area (:>)

Would I pay for ABS on any new bike now?  Probably.  The increase in cost is not that much anymore.  Will I replace my 86 to get it?  NOPE!

Cal

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 04:11:22 am »
Scan to stay out of harms way.

The only way to stay safe besides not riding at all.




Offline Jorge

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2018, 01:00:51 am »
You guys all make good points, but...
In a dire emergency, the most frequent that really can hurt us, when someone pulls out in front of us because they are completely clueless, I don't want to have to modulate my braking to let the front end settle and increase my contact patch - the ABS controller will do that 100 times faster than I can, and deliver more braking, sooner, than I ever could. I just have to squeeze as hard as I possibly can, and let the computer do the rest... and it will do this to both tires at the same time. That 70/30 Front/Rear, the ABS controller can do it, every time it's asked to.
To make matters one more degree of difficulty... where is that horrible scenario most likely to occur?  at an intersection. What to almost all intersections have?  painted lines. Wet or dry, the friction coefficient of my tires on bare pavement is not the same as the lines. Again, the ABS controller will "take care of that detail" for me. My job is to clamp the brakes, and look for an escape.
Sorry, a racer CAN outbrake ABS, but they determine when they will apply the brakes, they know how much traction is available, and it is a smooth and consistent surface; not exactly what we face when we ride.
I purchased my wife's bike because it has ABS, and I got a C14 instead of another C10 mostly for the same reason.
I do not see myself ever going back to a non-ABS bike.

Good discussion guys!  of course my opinion is the most valid :truce: :)

Offline Cal

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 02:51:57 am »
Just pretend you have a friend that will offer you an opportunity to ride on his non-ABS enabled bike.  You head out on the road and crank it on and almost immediately that bone-head driver you always watched out for appears right in front of you.  No swerve opportunity - just stop or else!

You apply the most practised method you have to get stopped as fast as you can - and the front end immediately goes like its on grease.  Because you don't know how to stop your bike in an emergency with anything less than ABS.

Now if you had practised emergency braking using the threshold technique (ie - increase the braking power as quickly as is safe to the threshold of almost losing traction) you may have actually gotten stopped or at least reduced speed enough for the hit to be survivable.

I teach riders to ride almost any version of bike and to understand the technique required to get the bike stopped as quickly and safely as possible.  that requires weight transfer forward so that traction is maximised as soon as possible and maximum braking can progress at that time.

oh - and I also do my best to have them not ride with their fingers on the front brake all the time - as human reaction is to grab/clench;  the micro-seconds required to move the hand to and begin squeezing the front brake scrubs off (valuable time - yes!) that grab factor that causes the front tire to skid and become useless.

i strongly beleive what i teach is valid and meets the needs in the majority of riding cases.  ABS if you have it can meet a small subset of situations where traction has been compromised.  It will (should) allow you to eventually get stopped in a controlled manner if you have time/space for ABS to do it.  i am confident a trained and practiced rider can beat the stop time of an ABS all the way stop.

Cal

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2018, 07:54:19 am »
I participate in IPSC training. I attend shooting range. I carry concealed gun in condition "0". Does it mean I am extremely proficient in a combat or superbly ready to defend myself? Hell No. But it is a start.

Same goes for average motorcycle rider, which I am, who can't or won't participate in riding classes or attend track to hone riding skills. Most of us aren't skilled enough to be "locked&loaded" at all times when riding motorbikes.
ABS will ameliorate any situation where "average" person isn't capable to prepare for emergency braking.
Electronics have much higher degree of reaction than human will ever posses.
ABS is NOT panacea to all emergency situations. But for most, it will work and save you from killing yourself or others.
But by all means, teach people how to control motorcycle in a bad situation. It is noble cause. I mean it.

Cheers...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 08:05:13 am by RoadKillHeaven »

Online Gsled

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2018, 12:41:27 am »
 You have to remember that ABS was not developed to shorten stopping distances. The insurance industry crunched numbers a determined many accidents were a result of lose of steering control and stability during (panic) breaking. This line of reasoning ignores tailgating and target fixation. The ability to maintain threshold braking will result in shorter stopping distances than relying on abs even though the modern systems are greatly improved for original. That being said if you find yourself in a situation involving abs actuation start searching for a way past by steering to an escape route (should have already been planned by then)

Online Daboo

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2018, 02:12:50 am »
I won't buy a bike again without ABS unless it is some classic where there's no other way to buy it.

I was commuting to work in Renton and passing through the "Renton S Curves" in morning rush hour traffic.  I was getting off in a couple exits, but I saw the traffic backing up seriously and getting packed.  It looked like they were moving, just at about 20 mph.  I started looking for a hole to slip into and start making my way across four lanes of traffic.  I saw one behind a delivery truck.  Smaller than I liked and with no visibility...but it looked like the best plan at the time.

I pulled in behind him and immediately realized he was slowing down...a lot.  What I didn't realize was that he was coming to a complete stop and I couldn't see anything in front of him.  I grabbed the brakes on my Honda for all I was worth.  After stopping, I wondered what that pulsing sensation was...and figured out that must've been the ABS kicking in.  On dry clean pavement and while being upright.

Could I have stopped quicker without ABS?  I don't know.  I also know now that I should've gone a bit further down the road and picked a different vehicle to pull in behind.  But like I said, it seemed like the best idea at the time.  I've only had about 6-7 times when I've had to grab the brakes hard.  I'd like that advantage of having ABS in the tool chest for when I do something like this that wasn't so smart.

Chris
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 02:21:31 am by Daboo »
Chris

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Offline Rico

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2018, 09:52:10 am »
I would much rather have MSC than ABS.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRWg91hv-M
"Beware of the lollipop of mediocrity. One lick and you'll suck forever!"Brian Willson

Offline Cal

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2018, 11:03:12 pm »
"I would much rather have MSC than ABS"

That makes better sense when rationalising the investment to me - and it really does include ABS in the MSC mix of tools.

For one thing - you are going around the curve while intentionally braking so yes you stay in your path better.  But if you were actually trying to stop the quickest way possible I would be hard pressed to change my training/habit of straightening the bike out first to better enable hard braking.

Cool video.  Hope that rider gets paid big to intentionally push the bike to a crash!

Cal

Offline lather

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2018, 12:37:54 am »
Its probably good for the sport to make bikes that are easier to ride for those not dedicated enough to develop their skills. As long as they include a switch to turn it off for the test of us.

Offline ConcoursKZ

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2018, 10:42:04 am »
Anyone who doesn't like ABS most likely has never owned a bike with it. Amazing technology. 60,000 on my bike and it was needed maybe 5 times. 1 of which saved me from death and 1 from hitting 4 deer. Non ABS would have been ugly. 
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“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”

Offline Rico

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2018, 12:06:42 pm »
I am all for ABS on the streets. It is true that a very good rider can probably stop as good or slightly better than ABS, (like mentioned before) there are way too many variables for the common rider. Wet spots, Painted lines, oil deposits on center of lanes, uneven pavement, dirt, other drivers. If I have help on the braking part, I can pay more attention on those. I've been riding sport bikes since 91 and put over 350k miles (estimate, I think its more). Right now I have a 05 R1 (love it), 10 ninja 250 and a 10 Concours with ABS. Taken all of them to the track. The ABS can surely bring that heavy concours to a stop really quick.

Also, when I first started riding and watching Motogp and other races I liked a racer named Arafumi Abe. He wasn't a mere-mortal rider and he passed away riding a scooter when a box truck made a left in front of him. I don't know if ABS would of helped him, but if a man on top of the game can go that way, I as a mere-mortal, would/will take advantages like ABS if I can get them.
"Beware of the lollipop of mediocrity. One lick and you'll suck forever!"Brian Willson