Author Topic: ABS vs Non-ABS  (Read 2223 times)

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Offline Road Runner

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2019, 03:05:24 pm »
I'm a fan of ABS ... I've practiced full performance stops on my C-14 and I don't think I could beat my ABS with non-ABS...

Mine is non ABS (by choice -- distrust techno-gadgetry), but I'm inclined to think you are quite correct (especially for us average -- or less -- riders).  My ABS will never malfunction, nor will it need maintenance, but I have tattooed in my head that if I ever lock the rear wheel in a panic stop, I need to keep it locked until I get stopped (to help mitigate high-siding), a habit I've used seldom -- but for years.
Yes, I recall the same technique from my MSF class. Great to keep in mind, for sure!
David L. Hamil
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Offline Daboo

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2019, 07:05:50 pm »
I don't want to rain on your parade but your bike did not decelerate better sliding on its side than it would have had you kept it upright and hard on the brakes. ...
I totally agree.  I was riding in South Dakota and came upon a motorcycle wreck.  The LEO came over and told me the rider had "laid it down".  I replied that if he had enough skill to "lay it down", that he had enough skill to avoid the accident entirely.  He thought for a second and chuckled at the logic in that.

Chris
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Offline Nosmo

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2019, 07:22:25 am »
You have to remember that ABS was not developed to shorten stopping distances. The insurance industry crunched numbers a determined many accidents were a result of lose of steering control and stability during (panic) breaking. This line of reasoning ignores tailgating and target fixation. The ability to maintain threshold braking will result in shorter stopping distances than relying on abs even though the modern systems are greatly improved for original. That being said if you find yourself in a situation involving abs actuation start searching for a way past by steering to an escape route (should have already been planned by then)

THIS

ABS is not intended to shorten stopping distance.  The owner's manuals for my GMC truck and Wee-Strom both contain statements that in some cases vehicles with ABS may take a LONGER distance to stop than those without.  ABS is solely intended to prevent wheel lock, and thereby help the operator to maintain some modicum of control in a panic situation.  Locked wheels are detrimental to control.

I came around a sweeping right curve on a county road several years ago with the Wee-Strom at about 50 MPH, and encountered a flock of peacocks, about a dozen or so, and they took up all of my lane.  Opposing traffic on the other lane and a very deep ditch on the right shoulder made evasive maneuvers questionable, even if I had time to set it up, which I didn't.  Admittedly, I also panicked (no one likes to admit that).  I slammed the brakes, and managed to thread my way between a couple of the birds, with literally an inch or two to spare.  I could feel the ABS pulsing the rear brake and I am absolutely convinced that it kept me from sliding out of control.  A high-side then would probably have launched me into the opposing traffic.  I'm certain in my own mind that the Concours "auto-lock" rear brake would have wrecked me.  It would have been my own fault, but fault doesn't matter when yer dead.

On the other hand, I think that if ABS is truly saving your life on a daily basis, you need to rethink your riding habits.
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"What could possibly go wrong...click....go wrong...click...go wrong...click...go wrong..."

Offline Tundra

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2019, 10:31:27 am »
I was a non ABS guy and thoughts were it dumbed down rider skill/ability. I changed my mind with my first ABS bike years ago. It was wonderful...However I'm not a fan of the brakes on my Concours, worst I've ever had in 40 years of riding. I don't believe it's the ABS, my thoughts are it's the 2012 model year specifically and it's more attributed to the "linked brakes" Mine suck. I've gone through everything, fluid and hard parts. People say you have to get used to it, or use the front only as it will apply both, yata yata yata. Shouldn't need to get used to crappy brakes.

Offline Freddy

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The best substitute for brains is ..............what?

Offline ogre_fl

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2019, 08:42:14 pm »
I was a non ABS guy and thoughts were it dumbed down rider skill/ability. I changed my mind with my first ABS bike years ago. It was wonderful...However I'm not a fan of the brakes on my Concours, worst I've ever had in 40 years of riding. I don't believe it's the ABS, my thoughts are it's the 2012 model year specifically and it's more attributed to the "linked brakes" Mine suck. I've gone through everything, fluid and hard parts. People say you have to get used to it, or use the front only as it will apply both, yata yata yata. Shouldn't need to get used to crappy brakes.

I believe ABS is a good thing on motorcycles.
I however dont care for linked brakes and particularity HATE how its done on the C14.

When I was shopping a Sport Tourer several years ago I tried a 2011 C14.
I so disliked the linked brakes, I promptly bought an FJR.

Just recently I found out that in 2010 they made the Gen 2 Connie 14 without linked brakes (and without ABS/Traction Control).
I would like ABS and traction control, but sought out and found a 2010 Non ABS bike.
I really like the brakes on this bike, heck I like the whole bike.

Offline Lee

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2020, 04:31:22 am »
If ABS kicks in you have done something wrong, or missed an indicator that you should have already been going slower or begun stopping sooner.

Well said !

Would appear ABS is a emergency overreaction and over braking avoidance technology. Not a substitute or replacement for the necessary learned skill set.

Offline Rain Dancer

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2020, 12:13:57 pm »
This, unfortunately will rank up there with a tire or oil thread. I am curious Roadkillheaven, you say abs is safety, however rear view cameras and blind spot avoidance is not. I disagree, as all of this is to help prevent unwanted occurances. It is how it is adapted by the users. It dumbs down a lot of operators. Traction control is another one. That rear view camera could save a child that runs behind a monster SUV from the passenger side. Even if you walked behind the truck before backing up and turned to watch as backing up. I have ridden with many riders that tailgate, and their response when I say anything is "I have abs, so I'm good". That is not dumbing down a rider? Or the guy I met years ago with an RR1000, all decked out and worked over. His riding buddy told me he never took the bike out of rain mode. He was petrified of it. Not dumbing down? I don't have a lot of miles, less than 400,000 street miles. I have raced a lot of different forms of bikes and cars but in no way claim to be an expert rider. I have avoided 2 animal hits because I didn't have abs, and have had none that would have been avoided if I had abs. I work on older abs bikes that have big issues with the abs systems as home care is not always easy or possible and some people can't afford or just don't believe in taking their bike to a dealer for maintenance. If you ride or plan on buying a newer bike, most likely you will have abs. Just make sure you keep practicing your braking so that time you nail the binders in the rain and there just happens to be an oil spot right there, the abs does what it should do and saves you. Not that you were't covering the brake and figured you didn't need to and now will be paying the piper. We all have different past experience and abilities, and there is no right or wrong on this. We all need to ride what we are comfortable with. But, that is just my opinion.
"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."  Dennis Miller

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Offline Lee

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2020, 02:03:38 pm »
Funny, my interest in ABS started when I noticed new cars were out braking my C10 in emergency stops. Those people who cut in front then break hard to make a right hand exit turn usually are the culprits. They cut you off by entering your safe break lead and then brake hard. Couple of weeks back had a 38ish women in town blast about 18 inches past me in the right lane then made a left turn across my path. I had to out turn her to survive. Not sure if ABS would help in those situations as I have had only my limited skill set and the blind luck defensive situational awareness gives one. In traffic, I am like a very scared fighter pilot with no bullets these days! Cell phones be damned!

Oh, my brakes are up to snuff would think and newly rebuilt. Pads are EBC up front do not remember the pad type off the top. about 6k on them now. The rear pads are older and just about getting to wear point. I have new non sintered pads to go on this winter sometime. I am also working on Brembo caliper early model mounting plates at moment for front.

But still curious about ABS. One thing I have noted in my study of them on motorcycles is that there is no failsafe backup. Seems units mechanisms would be very susceptible to debris from brake fluid breakdown. Air trapped on poor bleeding too! Seems extra special care would be in order for maintenance. With the new lawsuits we might yet see some design changes. Fly by wire perhaps instead of the electro/mechanical solenoids. Also completely separate front /rear solenoids. Believe BMW did this early on. Time will tell.

Yeah as a of necessity would be fighter pilot, might like a rear view camera!

Offline Rastus

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2020, 05:03:47 pm »
I hope you guys who faithfully rely on ABS rather than skill never have your ABS fail. I put over 100,000 miles on a Z1-R, and have over 50,000 miles logged on my 03 Connie, without ABS, and I like it. Learning trail-braking and other braking skills will save your butt. I have almost done a stoppy with my fully loaded Connie when a pickup driver pulling a trailer failed to look in my direction before pulling out in front of me. I also have no use for infotainment centers, self-driving vehicles, GPS, and other forms of distraction. Better to be prepared and aware.

Offline Daboo

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2020, 05:58:01 pm »
...I have almost done a stoppy with my fully loaded Connie when a ...
I almost did a stoppy once.  I was commuting south to work through the Renton S Curves... Normally, I'd start moving over from the HOV lane to my exit in a couple miles, but I could see the traffic was coming to a crawl.  I find it difficult to maneuver a heavy bike in bumper to bumper traffic when you are barely moving fast enough to keep your balance, and you don't know if the guy to the side will give you enough room to move over, and you don't know if the vehicle in front of you will come to a full stop with no warning.

So I decided to move over a few lanes while traffic was still moving.  I pulled in behind a delivery truck.  Didn't like it, and while it wasn't as large of a space as I'd liked to have, it was more than anything else I could see available.  By the way, we're slowing down from 60 mph.  As soon as I pulled in behind the delivery truck, it started braking hard.  I grabbed the brakes hard, maintaining my spacing only just barely.  There was no time to think, only to react.

After we all got slowed down, I realized I'd felt this pulsing feeling in the brakes.  Hmmm...must've been the ABS kicking in for the first time!  Oh wow!!  And this was on clean dry concrete pavement.

It made me a believer in ABS.

Chris
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Offline dcstrng

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2020, 05:59:43 pm »
I hope you guys ...  never have your ABS fail... I also have no use for infotainment centers, self-driving vehicles, GPS, and other forms of distraction. Better to be prepared and aware...

Yep, sort of where I am, but I've been sort of rethinking my opinion on ABS/non-ABS in light of the electronics packages for bikes such as the H2, and progress made in the racing superbike realm, nonetheless I pretty much am where you are.   

Although I do use a throttle-lock on any rides more than a few miles, I've (for some reason) never scratched the GPS/ entertainment itch...  I really do like just listening to the bike and over many years attribute much of the apparently reliability of my bikes (some different brands -- not all noted for reliability) to the fact I could detect a changing in tone, sound, throb or vibration and set things aright at the next stop.  I've purchased GPS mounts for my past three bikes -- and strangely never mounted a GPS yet (although there are farkles aplenty, otherwise).  In my cage, I habitually have an audio-book running, but this type of distraction has never migrated to my riding for some reason...

Different strokes I suppose... but back to ABS/electronics-package question -- if I were a rider who normally rode somewhere near 10/10ths, the modern full-suite electronics packages might be fascinating to play with, but as a CYA mechanism, I think just not be distracted by non-motorcycle issues is preferred (for me, at least).
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Offline Daboo

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Re: ABS vs Non-ABS
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2020, 08:43:42 pm »
One of my previous bikes didn't have ABS, but newer models did.  I didn't care too much about ABS at the time, but I was thinking that instead of holding onto the bike, to sell it then and not later.  As time would go on, more and more bikes would have ABS and new buyers would be looking for that.

Bottom line...it wasn't whether I thought ABS was good or not, but what a prospective buyer would feel.

Chris
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