Author Topic: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program  (Read 3649 times)

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Offline TLR

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Guys, before I started this new topic, I did a search for Accident Scene Management, Inc., ASMI, and Bystander Assistance Program, and the only thing I found was from 2009 and one post from 2012, so I'd like to get this information out to as many of the COG'ers as possible.   

Moderators:  Could this be made a sticky?  (If that's what it's called.)

And, although I've not attended any COG events, and won't until I retire again, I think it would be a GREAT idea to ask the ASMI people to provide some instructors for classes at the next event.



OK, today I attended an eight-hour class taught by two very capable instructors from the Accident Scene Management, Inc. organization.  Which is sponsored in part by the Road Guardians.

This class is a class that every serious motorcyclists should take, and I don't say that flippantly.

The Basic class teaches what you should do if you come upon the scene of a motorcycle accident:  How to manage the scene, protect yourself and victims from further injury from passing motorists, assess the situation, call for EMS, and then treat the victims of the motorcycle accident correctly.

Eye-opener:  Few EMT's are taught these motorcycle-accident-specific treatment techniques.  An EMT is likely NOT to know the proper way to remove a helmet, for example.

SAMI instructors have taught first responders these treatment techniques and it's very common for the students to tell them they have never been trained for motorcycle-specific trauma.


Another eye-opener:  If you know CPR and try it on a non-breathing TRAUMA victim, such as a downed motorcyclist, with a suspected bunch of broken ribs, you could do MUCH more harm than good.  Don't do the standard CPR on a trauma victim.  There are other techniques.  And they are taught in this course.

In my class today, most of the class were Blue Knights.  Current or retired LEO's.  It was a fun class, despite the subject matter being how to treat serious trauma wounds.  The cost to me was $65.   ASMI offers their Advanced class also.

So, guys, I highly recommend checking out this organization and trying to find a class near you.  The knowledge you get in this class could very well save the life of whoever you ride with.  Your friends and riding companions who take this class might save your life someday too, for that matter.

Personally, it's always bugged me that I knew that even with my CPR and basic first aid training, I would have no real understanding of what to do if I came upon a motorcycle accident where there were one, two, or more motorcyclists down, seriously hurt, unconscious, bleeding, and broken.  Here in Idaho, our best riding is out in the middle of nowhere, where an ambulance might take 30 minutes or more to get to you, and a Lifeflight is often the only answer.  IF you can get a call out on your cell phone.

Please check it out.  Get in a local class, this spring, as soon as you can.  If you're lucky, you might also get in a class with a bunch of Blue Knights, or other first responders, and you'll learn much more than you could imagine.
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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 04:23:55 am »
Oh! My God. Someone call Idaho Bob, err... Island Bob... Quick!!!  He's needed to deal with this horrible situation in Idaho! Motorcyclists without proper accident scene management!

Ummm... excuse the sarcasm, but just what are you trying to accomplish, Tom?

I agree people should have some sort of basic roadside medic capacity, but you sound like a shill for this specific company.

Am I wrong?????
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Offline dan4aspen

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 07:12:51 am »
I think the point he is trying to make is, most of us ride in a group of some sort or fashion, and that maybe having this knowledge could save you or your friends life someday. 

My buddy who rides all the time, and has for 30 years, went out in a group last year, which I missed do to family engagement.   All of these guys each had many years experience.  Unfortunately, 1 of them went down due to loose gravel in a corner, and hit a car with his helmet, while filipping through the air.  He was life flighted out of that area, with broken ribs,  concussion, broken femur, and hip, and arterial bleeding. 

Medical training specific to our sport couldn't hurt any of us.  Knowledge is a powerful thing.  I have medical training, from military, including cpr, but have no idea how to perform CPR on somebody with broken ribs.  Assume you would only breathe into their mouth, and leave chest alone, for possible broken ribs which if compressed could rupture a lung, or artery, if they hadn't been damaged on impact. 
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Offline Rick

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 10:04:23 am »
CPR has changed. You don't breathe into their mouth any more. CPR on a chest injury patient is done very gently, paying attention to how deep you,compress the chest (1.5-2" on an adult). You don't have to press very hard. You may have to ventilate by mouth in this case however due to the instability of the chest wall.

When I used to teach this stuff I always told my students that the patient is already dead, you can't really make it any worse so give it a try anyway.

Offline Sly

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 11:25:08 am »
Hello all, I’m new to this site, haven’t got my C14 (next week  :motonoises:) but I’ve been reading many posts over the last month. And of course, this caught my eye like most other posts. First of all, I’m a paramedic, 30 years in and I’m all for basic skills and in NO WAY will I or my intentions are to critique the instructors on their course, wasn’t there, don’t know them.

But if I may, I will  give you my thoughts and some let’s say, hard core facts about trauma victims. First, everyone should learn basic CPR / first aid. Bravo to you sir, for doing it and not just talking about it!!

Yes there are specific techniques in removing a helmet, weather it be a motorcycle, football or whatever helmet and this is generally taught in prehospital trauma life support. Here in Quebec, basic knowledge and taught in the paramedic program.

CPR on a trauma victime is, well (sorry, may be graphic here) damn near useless. CPR was first developed for medical cardiac arrests, not trauma. If your heart stops beating because of trauma (arteries are sectioned, aorta, liver, spinal cord dissection) it is caused by major bleeding and the ONLY thing that may save your life is landing on an operating table, surgeon ready!!! The golden hour (time of incident to the operating table) and the silver 10 minutes (time on scene) are basic rules in trauma.

Our protocols (here in Quebec) are if I get to any trauma scene and the patient is flat line, Sorry.

As for CPR on a trauma victime, there are no different methods, it’s CPR and the newest standards are deeper and faster compressions and if there are broken ribs, well...... (yes, citizen CPR is now taught without mouth to mouth, and that’s a good thing).

Now just to make sure I don’t get branded as the non empathetic type, what we do in our ambulances (MD approved protocol) and what I would do if I was in my car or on my bike are two things. I’ll give you my all and hope to get the same, but the stats are there, trauma induced cardiac arrest are just damn fatal. Miracles do happen, and you can learn CPR in 30 minutes.

Just my 2 cents, no offence intended.

Safe riding everyone, keep the shinny side up!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 02:05:49 pm by Sly »

Offline Rick

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 09:10:26 pm »
++1

If you see a paramedic doing cpr on a traumatic arrest patient, he most likely is going through the motions for the family/media/bystanders. 

Hello all, I’m new to this site, haven’t got my C14 (next week  :motonoises:) but I’ve been reading many posts over the last month. And of course, this caught my eye like most other posts. First of all, I’m a paramedic, 30 years in and I’m all for basic skills and in NO WAY will I or my intentions are to critique the instructors on their course, wasn’t there, don’t know them.

But if I may, I will  give you my thoughts and some let’s say, hard core facts about trauma victims. First, everyone should learn basic CPR / first aid. Bravo to you sir, for doing it and not just talking about it!!

Yes there are specific techniques in removing a helmet, weather it be a motorcycle, football or whatever helmet and this is generally taught in prehospital trauma life support. Here in Quebec, basic knowledge and taught in the paramedic program.

CPR on a trauma victime is, well (sorry, may be graphic here) damn near useless. CPR was first developed for medical cardiac arrests, not trauma. If your heart stops beating because of trauma (arteries are sectioned, aorta, liver, spinal cord dissection) it is caused by major bleeding and the ONLY thing that may save your life is landing on an operating table, surgeon ready!!! The golden hour (time of incident to the operating table) and the silver 10 minutes (time on scene) are basic rules in trauma.

Our protocols (here in Quebec) are if I get to any trauma scene and the patient is flat line, Sorry.

As for CPR on a trauma victime, there are no different methods, it’s CPR and the newest standards are deeper and faster compressions and if there are broken ribs, well...... (yes, citizen CPR is now taught without mouth to mouth, and that’s a good thing).

Now just to make sure I don’t get branded as the non empathetic type, what we do in our ambulances (MD approved protocol) and what I would do if I was in my car or on my bike are two things. I’ll give you my all and hope to get the same, but the stats are there, trauma induced cardiac arrest are just damn fatal. Miracles do happen, and you can learn CPR in 30 minutes.

Just my 2 cents, no offence intended.

Safe riding everyone, keep the shinny side up!

Offline TLR

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2014, 09:13:49 pm »
Interesting responses here, thanks.  Here are mine:

JPavlis_CA:  Your post is insulting.

I am not a shill for ASMI or Road Guardians.

I kinda thought this thread was a place for us to bring our personal experiences, new products, riding techniques relating to motorcycle safety to the attention of others.  But you correct me if I'm wrong about that OK?


For the record, I spent over 25 years doing purchasing and procurement work for a corporation, and I'm not easily impressed by stuff, or most people, and have developed a fairly good BS meter.   This class impressed me.  It might prove to be the best $65 I've spent in a while.  Just my opinion, OK?

At the risk of appearing to be a shill, here's the website I found, if you're interested:  http://roadguardians.org

You can review it or not, nothing in it for me.  There are a couple videos there you might find educational.  But probably not.


This class, however, also impressed the other students:  Two current motor cops, retired LEO's of assorted kinds, the 911 operator, and the Army Reserve medic sitting next to me.  The "old" guy who rides his BMW GS bike all over the world, off road and otherwise, learned a lot too.  Everybody did.

I'm a relatively inexperienced biker;  it seemed to me the other guys in this class put on more motorcycle miles each summer than I have done my whole life.   Two cops ride for their job and pleasure, with the Blue Knights, a few others rode with other groups.  Mostly, the students were Blue Knights.  It's a major hobby/activity/avocation for them, unlike me.  Yet, they were all impressed and surprised by at least a few things, and learned critical stuff they didn't know before.  And, ALL, unlike me, had stories to tell about accidents they'd been in, or witnessed, or come upon.  I never have.

dan4aspen is exactly right.  I think it occurred to many of us that there is probably no doubt some bikers have been inadvertently killed by buddies, fellow riders, spouses, or bystanders who moved the victim's body incorrectly, dragged them off the road incorrectly, broke the neck inadvertently, or otherwise contributed to their death because they didn't know what to do.

CPR:  Rick, I've taken the old CPR classes and most recent ones.  Yep, they don't advise mouth-to-mouth anymore.  But this class makes the point that the U of AZ docs who created this new technique deal with non-trauma heart attack victims.  People who collapse on the sidewalk, etc.  Not guys who hit a wall at 40 mph or tumbled down the road for a hundred feet.  Their technique pushes fresh blood to the brain, but you start pounding on somebody's chest who already you can assume to have spinal cord and rib damage and it MIGHT not be the best way to get oxygen to the brain.

So, this class does NOT teach CPR.  It teaches mouth-to-mouth, using a small square vinyl screen they give you, or will sell you more for $5.  Comes in a little red packet with a ring that attaches to your jacket or wherever.  That and medical gloves are the first things the instructor reaches for when coming upon the scene of a bike accident, she said.


To Sly, your experience is impressive, and all I can say is three things:  1)  These instructors have given classes to EMT's specifically, and the EMT's did not know some of the techniques that are specific to treating motorcyclists.  2)  The LEO's in the class all seemed to understand that EMT's--at least in their experience, in Idaho--have, let's say, highly variable degrees of expertise.  Not to mention the ones in other countries they've ridden in, such as in South America, etc.  3)  IF the victim has a full face helmet, and IF you check and can't get any breathing, because the victim swallowed the tongue or whatever, this course says remove the helmet using the technique they teach, move the jaw, and do mouth-to-mouth.  You've got about 5 minutes to get it going.  And keep doing mouth to mouth until EMT's arrive or the victim starts breathing.  The idea is to get oxygen to the brain, and the standard CPR won't cut it, due to probability of extensive rib damage.

Educating EMT's btw, wasn't the main point of the class.  It was to educate us to do the right things before the EMT's get there, and then get out of their way, but stand by and make sure any ill-trained EMT's didn't start doing the wrong things.


Last thing:  It seems like this ASMI class or organization is young.  Kinda new.  Their website says they are only in 30 states, but international too, whatever that means.  So it might not be available to you locally.  That's why I recommended to the COG powers-that-be to check it out and consider having them give some classes to the next COG event.




« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 01:12:32 am by TLR »
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Offline ChipDoc

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2014, 11:25:53 pm »
I hadn't heard of these people before, but now that I know about them I really want to seek them out and learn what I can.  They seem to be all over the place; three of them are near me in Florida.  Find some folks near you here:

http://roadguardians.org/instructor-bios/

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, TLR - and have fun with that new Connie!

Offline Eddie-FL

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 12:17:03 pm »
If I'm not mistaken, this group or one similar put on a class at one of the past National Rallies. At least I remember it being discussed, so it's not entirely new. Does seem that it might be worthwhile.
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Offline Tour1

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 04:13:31 pm »
After driving for 41 years or so I've come across 2 emergencies.
One was a car on fire in the early morning darkness as I was coming home from work.
I had a GPS phone but I called 911 before I checked my location, and I couldn't see any street names, just route numbers that I wasn't sure were county or state routes.  I was ambling home "the long way" and I didn't pay attention to where I was turning. After a really embarrassing exchange with the 911 operator police & FD showed up because somebody else had reported the fire.  It turned out to be about 500 feet from a fire house, on the back side so I didn't see any markings or garage doors, etc.
Another time I saw a bike & rider rear-end a car that was skidding and hitting a deer.  I stopped as did others, and (pre-gps phone) nobody knew what the road name was or exactly where we were on it.  Luckily it was near the jail and a prison bus stopped and its driver called in the location.
So it seems to me there are things that should be on an accident scene checklist, including knowing or learning where you are as soon as possible.  Maybe that would be or could be covered in a safety course.
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Offline llmotoll

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 05:38:28 pm »
Thanks for sharing this information TLR
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Offline BillB_VA

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 08:15:01 pm »
I really have to echo Sly. I too am a paramedic in Virginia. We are taught when and how to correctly remove a helmet, and package a patient who is a victim of multi system trauma. In my area a traumatic cardiac arrest as a result of a vehicle collision is to receive CPR and be transported immediately to the closest hospital. CPR is CPR, if your heart has stopped as a result of trauma, fractured ribs are not your biggest problem. If CPR is successful in a return of circulation, you have a chance of survival only if we can get you quickly to the operating table. That's why in many cases, we fly all our motorcycle collision victims if they have serious injuries. I think any training program is better than no training. I applaud everyone for getting educated in what to do in the event of a collision. It may the difference in life or death for a victim.

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Offline TLR

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 01:34:42 am »
Thanks All, but just to clarify (I edited my previous post to emphasize this),  The class does NOT TEACH CPR.

If you're in a group of riders and one is hit by a vehicle or goes down and is seriously injured, or you're one of the first people on the scene of a motorcycle accident, and IF you find the injured biker is unconscious and not breathing, what do you do?

The EMT's are 10 min to 60 minutes away.

What do you do in the meantime?

What do you do to try to keep that biker, or your buddy or spouse or whoever it is, alive while you're waiting for the EMT's to arrive?


That's what this class teaches, ok?


I've since looked at the website more closely, and learned that classes are taught by EMT's.  Turns out, one of my instructors was an EMT.

In my class, the first half of the class was about stuff you do before you begin treating the victim(s).

If the victim isn't breathing, you have about five minutes to try to get oxygen to the brain.

So, you do some stuff, (scene management and the right way to call 911, etc.), and then start treating the victim--and the treatments were the second half of the day.


I won't try to explain it all here, but essentially, ONE of the things they teach--and you can argue about this if you want--that if you assume there may be spinal/rib/other torso breaks and damage, pounding on the chest to get the heart pumping isn't what you do.

IF the victim isn't breathing, you clear the airway and try to get the brain supplied with oxygen, and you do this with mouth-to-mouth.  Two breaths right away, get ready to clear the vomit, clean it out if you get it, then a breath every five seconds, basically.  Keep doing it until the EMT's arrive,  however long it may be.

Anybody have a problem with this?

If so, I guess I'd like to hear alternative suggestions.  Seriously, I would;  EMT's weigh in.  I'm certainly NO EXPERT, by any means.

They teach how to treat other injuries also.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:42:36 am by TLR »
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Offline Gumby

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 02:20:26 am »


Interesting topic, gets me thinking.

Offline 2linby

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 04:08:15 am »
Oh! My God. Someone call Idaho Bob, err... Island Bob... Quick!!!  He's needed to deal with this horrible situation in Idaho! Motorcyclists without proper accident scene management!

Ummm... excuse the sarcasm, but just what are you trying to accomplish, Tom?

I agree people should have some sort of basic roadside medic capacity, but you sound like a shill for this specific company.

Am I wrong?????

Sounds like you are........ ;)  But hey you are entitled to your first impressions....... :-[ :-[ :-[

No doubt many of us have witnessed or been involved in a few horrific collision situations. First of all please stop calling collisions "accidents" they are not. Collisions are avoidable, accidents are a whole other situation.

Of the most sever collisions I've been party to, the injuries, unfortunately involved proved to be fatal. There was little I could have done to aid in the prevention of the victims death. I wish to this day for each and every one of them I could have done more, but given each scenario I doubt the outcome would have proved to be different.

However this is not to say that had I a different skill set perhaps I could have done more to aid these folks better.  Education is always a good thing. The more we know the better we can be in these extreme situations.
 

 


« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 01:56:53 pm by 2linby »
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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2014, 03:24:23 am »
Yeah, Tom, I guess my response was over the top, but let me try to explain.

Your summary of what you were exposed to in the class was good, but then your final thoughts seemed to push this particular organization. There are many others out there. For example, T3RG, Women in Motion and Rescue Riders also work with ASMI, but you made it sound like this Road Guardians group was the only thing going and the best there is.

And I have to tell you, I was put off when I looked at their site. First thing I see is the picture of the typical parade of Harleys. Yup, won't argue about them needing some sort of training. But then looking deeper, I find the expected tie in to ABATE, an organization made famous for fighting helmet laws. Just what is going on here? Definite dichotomy between the two positions.

But then it got even worse. While the Guardians were pushing joining their organization and crowing about it being free to do so, they sure would like you to make a donation so they could buy more "stuff."

So, I was put off by the initial post. I guess it's because instead of closing with a suggestion to get some training, instead, you said to look specifically for the Road Guardians and as a result I concluded you had some sort of relation with the organization. So... sorry.

BTW, I had training back in '97 or '98 by an RN associated with ASM, Inc. Not only a nurse and accident scene/first responder trainer, but also an AFM track nurse (her husband was a racer) and a rider. She knows her stuff.

And Bob....   :nananana:
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Offline TLR

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2014, 01:19:44 am »
OK.  You have your experience and I can't argue with that.  You're entitled to all your opinions.  No problem, at all.

As I explained, I was, personally, bothered by the fact that even with CPR and basic Red Cross-type first aid training, I still knew I hadn't a clue what to do if I came upon a motorcyclist down with injuries.

This class was what I was looking for.  And, was the best $65 I've spent in a while.

I discovered the class, and ASMI, etc., by googling something about first aid kits for motorcyclists, or something like that, a few weeks ago.


Glad to know there are other organizations offering such useful--imho critical--information to riders, but I didn't know anything about them.

Just knew--and tried to explain--that I thought this class was outstanding.


Btw, don't know about ABATE, or even Road Guardians, for that matter, but I see NO dichotomy between fighting mandatory helmet laws and offering motorcycle safety classes, of one sort or another.

My white helmet, which I always wear, has a sticker on the back that reads, "This helmet worn by choice--MY CHOICE."

Personally, I guess I'd be inclined to support any organization that fought for both personal freedom and also offered motorcycle safety classes of one sort or another.  I see them as dovetailing perfectly.


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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2014, 04:58:23 am »
Tom - Sorry if I came across as sarcastic and gruff, but after decades of riding, wrenching, helping others... and having friends die in my arms on the side of the road, I tend get that way when someone comes along excited by some great new thing... which isn't.

I'm glad you are getting into it. I'm a firm believer in advanced training, whether it be rider training or first responder. I encourage you to explore both. My med stuff is local to me so I can't help there, but if you want suggestions for rider training... just ask, I'm sure you'll have a response within minutes from the inmates.   ;D

From what I've read, the Guardians are an umbrella group formed to handle the increased business side of the ASMI, which makes sense since ASMI is non-profit.

As for helmet use... it's a personal choice... as long as you are willing, you accept the risk.... and the cost. Don't ask me to cover it..
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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2014, 09:47:05 am »
As for helmet use... it's a personal choice... as long as you are willing, you accept the risk.... and the cost. Don't ask me to cover it..
You know... I get the point, I really do. If I had to chose between policy A that covered me and my passenger wearing full gear (or even just a helmet) and policy B that was twice the price but allow me to accept the risk, I would chose B. But that's not the way insurance works. I've seen countless people wearing full gear riding in some very unsafe manners (speeding, stunts, passing, ...) but most of that seems to be acceptable to the motorcycle community in general. Ride around without a helmet and you're an idiot, you don't care about your family/loved ones, you shouldn't be allowed to have children, your making everyone insurance go up, ... the list is almost endless.
<--- is there any mechanism in place to deal with a non- productive, antagonistic, former non- member such as this?

Offline 2linby

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2014, 09:18:39 pm »
... the list is almost endless.
Now that is good news!

 ;)

You know we love ya.........right  :)
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Offline Camper Dave

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Re: Accident Scene Management, Inc., (ASMI) Bystander Assistance Program
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2014, 10:10:08 pm »
You know we love ya.........right  :)
I know the important people do...

Did I ever tell you how important you are to me Mr. 2lin??  :great:
<--- is there any mechanism in place to deal with a non- productive, antagonistic, former non- member such as this?