Author Topic: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course  (Read 4354 times)

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Offline S Smith

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2016, 12:22:31 pm »
I've been involved with providing motorcycle safety training for nearly 20 years. I've taken a lot of training too. As I mentioned, the mental and physical skills taught in ALL street rider education courses is based on the accident and injury causation findings of the "Hurt Report" from the early 80's. Read the Summary of Findings and see how it relates to what is taught in current rider training offerings.

4Bikes hits the nail on the head... any training is better than no training.  Every rider should do something. I have found that within COG, our members tend to be more mature-minded, touring riders. Safety, proper gear, training, etc tend to be more in the forefront of their minds. There are many riders out there who are overconfident or naive of their skills and feel they do not need to take rider training. Yet these same people will spend hundreds on golf & tennis pros, or ski/snowboard lessons to name only a few.

Stayin Safe is a great program. (BTW - MSF has had a similar on-street course using headsets, but I do not see many state programs running it - probably due to cost and liability) These courses may not be for everyone. Stayin Safe and other similar on-street and track programs like CSS come at a hefty price tag that may be out of reach for a vast number of riders. Find something that is affordable. Even taking a parking lot course like total Control or MSF ERC riders will come away learning at least one new thing or improve one skill. Isn;t this what it's about?

 
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There is more to be gained by members raising hands saying "I'll do that" instead of pointing fingers saying "nobody's doing that."

Offline Diz

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2016, 01:36:50 pm »

In the end, I would rather see 1000's of riders get some level of training, than a handful get advanced training. One thing that struck me hard, is seeing how many things I could be doing better while riding.
I've been involved with providing motorcycle safety training for nearly 20 years. I've taken a lot of training too. As I mentioned, the mental and physical skills taught in ALL street rider education courses is based on the accident and injury causation findings of the "Hurt Report" from the early 80's. Read the Summary of Findings and see how it relates to what is taught in current rider training offerings.

4Bikes hits the nail on the head... any training is better than no training.  Every rider should do something. I have found that within COG, our members tend to be more mature-minded, touring riders. Safety, proper gear, training, etc tend to be more in the forefront of their minds. There are many riders out there who are overconfident or naive of their skills and feel they do not need to take rider training. Yet these same people will spend hundreds on golf & tennis pros, or ski/snowboard lessons to name only a few.


^
+1000 Read the Hurt Summary. #'s 12 & 55 are really telling

Offline JimBob

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2016, 06:06:32 pm »
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+1000 Read the Hurt Summary. #'s 12 & 55 are really telling

Hey Diz, what are you referring to with #12 & 55? I have the PDF open, but there's no section 55, and section 12 is the summary.

Are you referring to pages? Cause page 12 is just methodolgy.

Thanks!

Offline S Smith

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2016, 06:45:48 pm »
Quote
+1000 Read the Hurt Summary. #'s 12 & 55 are really telling

Hey Diz, what are you referring to with #12 & 55? I have the PDF open, but there's no section 55, and section 12 is the summary.

Are you referring to pages? Cause page 12 is just methodolgy.

Thanks!

I feel he means the summary items of these numbers


| Steve Smith | COG #3184 | MSF/CONREP RC |

There is more to be gained by members raising hands saying "I'll do that" instead of pointing fingers saying "nobody's doing that."

Offline Diz

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2016, 02:18:02 am »
Jim Bob; when I opened the supplied link, the top 55 items of motorcycle unsafety listed by the Hurt report is what I was able to view. # 12 and #55 were items that identified common causes for accidents or crashes. Found those particular observations to be revealing about the state of motorcycle drivers.

Online 4Bikes

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2016, 11:15:27 am »
A fellow Cogger Jack mailed me two books and magazines with the Stayin Safe articles. The first book is Total Control by Lee Parks, and the second is Stayin Safe the Art and Science of Riding Really Well by Larry Grodsky.  :great: :great: :great:

In the Hurt Report, this consecutive grouping stands out to me and are countered by taking a training a course. In many ways, all of the 55 summary items seem to come down to avoiding the the accident in the first place.

24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

25. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly underrepresented in the accident data.

26. Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident.

27. Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.

28. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline Diz

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2016, 09:20:03 pm »
You stated that you were practicing increased situational awareness when you came upon the deer in the road; was there any swerving or hard emergency braking when you came to a stop? It sounded as if you saw the deer long before any heart stopping moment could occur. Training and practice did not make you a statistic.

Online 4Bikes

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2016, 10:05:45 pm »
You stated that you were practicing increased situational awareness when you came upon the deer in the road; was there any swerving or hard emergency braking when you came to a stop? It sounded as if you saw the deer long before any heart stopping moment could occur. Training and practice did not make you a statistic.
In that case yes, I came over a blind crest and looked far ahead as possible and saw them. I also noted that another vehicle had not come my way for over 10 minutes and it was a rural road in a state forrest.  I was not a surprised and I easily checked up and was on the horns. All of that came from my recent training. Before that training, it may have still worked out but a much bigger and urgent stop on the brakes. 

Back the Hurt summary. I was surprised to see the low percentage of MC crashes caused by animals. That is high up on my list of gotchas while riding since they are so unpredictable.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline JimBob

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2016, 02:49:51 am »
Jim Bob; when I opened the supplied link, the top 55 items of motorcycle unsafety listed by the Hurt report is what I was able to view. # 12 and #55 were items that identified common causes for accidents or crashes. Found those particular observations to be revealing about the state of motorcycle drivers.

Ah, thanks - I had the report open from a different source, in the original (non-web) format, so it looked different. The link in the first post here has that list. Got it.

Offline JimBob

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2016, 02:58:58 am »
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12. Most motorcycle accidents involve a short trip associated with shopping, errands, friends, entertainment or recreation, and the accident is likely to happen in a very short time close to the trip origin.

Well, this is the same with cars, but it's misleading. Of necessity, ALL TRIPSbegin with the driver/rider "close to trip origin", while only long rides have riders farther from origin. It's basic math. Also, we do a LOT more short trips than long ones, in general. The stat doesn't really mean much as it stands (without more vectors/metrics); though we can possibly infer we experience a little attentional blindness in familiar surroundings.

Quote
55. Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property.

I wish they'd been more clear on this - did they lack collision insurance, med insurance or both? Did they have other forms of medical coverage from other sources? Keeping in mind this study started in '75, who would have insurance on a bike (I didn't in the 80's-bike/car weren't valuable enough)? Certainly there's a greater variety of higher-cost motorcycles today, and the average age has increased with greater purchasing power.
 
The Hurt Report certainly provides a great baseline, but boy it's been what - 30+ years since it's conclusions. Lots has changed, both in the riding environment and especially the ability to collect, study and dissect data.

Offline Ranger Jim

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2016, 10:30:20 am »
RE: #12 - The fact that most crashes happen close to home is also largely due to the fact that we become complacent to covering very familiar territory. You've seen the curves, intersections, driveways, etc so many times that you (essentially) stop looking at them and virtually go onto autopilot. If anyone or anything unusual occurs, the surprise factor can be overwhelming because you're not concentrating.
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No one is a TOTAL failure; they can always be used as a bad example.

Offline Diz

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2016, 05:37:00 pm »
RE: #12 - The fact that most crashes happen close to home is also largely due to the fact that we become complacent to covering very familiar territory. You've seen the curves, intersections, driveways, etc so many times that you (essentially) stop looking at them and virtually go onto autopilot. If anyone or anything unusual occurs, the surprise factor can be overwhelming because you're not concentrating.

^
+1

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2016, 11:15:21 am »
The group of six that I trained with for the Stayin Safe course continue to be in contact, including the two instructors.  We pass along things that we learned, etc. so I continue to learn and will share.  Here is a an example from rider David Y.

Participant Feedback -- Stayin’ Safe Motorcycle Safety Training – spring 2016

Now more than a month after two intense days of on-road, Stayin’ Safe Motorcycle Training, I’m a lot clearer about its impact on my riding. Integration is the key concept for me and it results from continually evaluating past misadventures and asking how to avoid doing again what made them misadventures.

Here are three examples where Stayin’ Safe Training help me pull individual concepts together:

1. Light hands used to mean am I relaxed? Is my riding posture comfortable, not tense? Are my shoulders down and not hurting or stressed? Now light hands mean heavy feet. Am I leaning the bike by changing my weight on the pegs? Am I transferring butt weight down to the balls of my feet? Are my knees in and relaxed? Am I using my entire body (body steering) by moving forward and to the side to create more lean control? Am I aware of how my left handgrip moves forward and down when I’m initiating a left hand turn (countersteering) In other words does my bike lean like a bicycle starting a turn? Can I make the bike LEAN with light hands? Yep.

2. Do a mirror check every 5 to 7 seconds used to mean do a mirror check every 5 to 7 seconds -- or feel guilty. Now do a mirror check every 5 to 7 seconds is a suggestion about how to insure “no surprises” and maintain 360 degree awareness about what might threaten me from behind, from either side, or from ahead. It means trying to focus on the greatest risks and balance attention among them. Sounds like common sense but adding in “put your bike where they can’t get you” and maintain relentless attention adds up to a more integrated approach. You put yourself at the center of your visual circle and break the circle up into perhaps 6 sections. Your eyes rotate around the circle looking for the potential risks in each section. You rearrange your crash potential priorities at each click around the circle and pay most attention to those sections with the greatest risk. Sounds simple but every surprise car in your blind spot is a screw up.

3. Smooth riding used to mean pulling off a snick shift (instead of a clunk) every once in a while. Now fork travel gets my attention. Every abrupt movement of the forks signals an opportunity to get better at shifting, braking, or steering through road crud. Low speed control of simultaneous clutch, throttle, brake, and body weight management has direct application to high-speed bike smoothness. We only have a few controls to use but using them all at the same time is a stretch. A good stretch  especially when done daily.

In my integrated head, a rider can only do two things:
1.   change speed or 2.  change road position.

Skills that lead to safer riding involve preparing to do both, then doing them well.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline Ranger Jim

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2016, 11:32:22 am »
In my opinion, the Stayin' Safe course is (arguably) the best course available to riders who have some experience and want to continue to improve. As the training is done in small groups, you have the advantage of virtually one-on-one coaching. Since it's done on the roadways and not in a parking lot, you are dealing with the "real world." If you apply yourself and look at the "Why's" of the skills they encourage you develop, you become a much more analytical rider and have a much greater understanding of how you can control your motorcycle.

Yes, it is an expensive class but when you put it into the context of what you can gain it is well worth the cost.  I plan to take it sometime.
JIM CULP
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No one is a TOTAL failure; they can always be used as a bad example.

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2016, 12:14:47 pm »
I had a great conversation with Ranger Jim at the Helen Rally about motorcycle safety.  Jim is the former COG Safety officer, and I can tell you that he knows this subject well to the point where I think he could easily be a Stayin Safe instructor.   :great:
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline Ranger Jim

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2016, 01:51:31 pm »
 :c017: I appreciate the kind words. TCARS!  :motonoises:
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No one is a TOTAL failure; they can always be used as a bad example.

Offline Diz

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Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2016, 12:22:45 am »
Back the Hurt summary. I was surprised to see the low percentage of MC crashes caused by animals. That is high up on my list of gotchas while riding since they are so unpredictable.

I have been trying to develop better situational awareness and this quote has come back to me many times. Since I read those lines; a near collision with a buzzard I startled next to the road feeding, 2 near collisions with turkeys that decided the other side of the road might be better, drove around a good sized snapping turtle, had multiple deer sightings on the shoulder of the road, braked hard for 1 deer, braked hard for 1 cow, squished a bunch of chipmunks (Cleaning the bike is a b@#$ch) had a song bird fly into my chest and stopped completely to let a bear cross. I have thought each time that I was glad I was trying to pay attention to the moment. No way to anticipate animals.