Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Motorcycle Talk => Motorcycle Safety => Topic started by: 4Bikes on May 16, 2016, 03:53:24 pm

Title: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 16, 2016, 03:53:24 pm
Bairbait (Rick Close) and I participated in the Switzerland of Ohio Stayin Safe Advanced rider training program this past weekend. 

http://www.stayinsafe.com/ (http://www.stayinsafe.com/)

Bairbait was looking for a decent training course, and found this AMA sanctioned training program after our reading our Chief instructor Eric Trow’s regular articles in Ride Magazine.  The Stayin Safe program is an eye opener for many reasons.  You are asked to assess your riding in many categories and you need to be honest to get the most out the course.  Our instructors review those evaluations before, during and after the training.  They really care about making sure you get the most out of the training.

Before you get the notion that this is a only safety course and will be dry and boring, you need to consider that you are riding on some of the best roads in the country for two solid days and it covers all aspects of riding.  I had no clue how many awesome and challenging the southeast Ohio roads have to offer.  They go up and down and there is no straight section of roadway, which makes it ideal for training. The accommodations and dinner at the Stockport Inn, and lunch stops along the well were extremely enjoyable.  They have other trips as well. But what will make this experience memorable is the quality of the instructors Eric and Randy, and the camaraderie of the 5 other participants in the course.  There were constant opportunities to share experiences and ask questions of the instructors.  The instructors were extremely organized and purposeful in every part of the training they covered.  You have an opportunity to ride on you own in a “study hall” on great roads and work on the things that you learned. 

I think what sets this training aside from other programs is the fact that the instructor is riding with you and communicating via radio to your ear buds.  So imagine two very talented instructors that are teaching you and evaluating your riding in real time under technical road conditions, including in our case rain for half of the first day.  They emphasize that avoidance and elimination surprises by gathering as much information as possible is a key to riding safely.  They also stop to explain the new upcoming course sections, had chalk style drawing sections of the roadway, and reviewed video riding scenarios the second day after breakfast.  You ride following one of the instructors, or they follow you to critique your riding style and decisions while hearing the instructions.  They also provide you with a handbook that rivals any motorcycle training book out there.

The thing that I find interesting, is that every rider participating was a very good rider with experience, yet they wanted to learn more.  I would put myself in that category, and came away with an overwhelming sense of enlightenment and realization that I now know so much more and can now be capable of riding better than ever. 

I read the book Proficient Motorcycling  and watched two of Keith Code’s Twist of the wrist training videos.  Despite that information, here are the things that I feel like I improved on the most after these on the road class sessions. (Seems like a lot doesn’t it?)
-Looking ahead 12 seconds and gathering as much information as possible.  Looking for the indications about the direction the road is turning based on trees, power lines and houses.
-Riding at the proper speed to be able to correct and stop if the situation requires it.
-Learning the proper position (or lane) on the roadway, to put you in the best situation at all times for seeing through and beyond a turn and avoiding traffic at hill crests and intersections.
-Understanding cornering lines, including braking if needed and throttle control
-Looking constantly for driveways, side streets, obstacles and driver hazards and assessing the best speed and place to be to avoid risk.
-Riding style #1 spending time preparing for the proper turn entry speed, while throttling out and away from the turn.
-Riding style #2 spending time learning how to brake before and into the early part of the turn.
-Spending time learning how to set the position the suspension of the bike by using both throttle and brakes in conjunction, and also learning how braking and throttle affect the suspension.
-Application of body leaning to initiate and control the turns.  Didn’t know how slight the movement from the seat could be used to make a difference and how applying throttle stands the bike up when exiting the turn. 
-Brake and clutch technique for pulling away on very steep hills.
-Swerving and avoiding obstacles and when and how to react to critters that surprise you. 
-Learning best practices for group riding and riding your own ride and using all three lanes. (forget staggered riding formations on the secondary’s)
-Slow speed parking lot maneuvers and engaging the rear brake and clutch slipping and with proper head movement
-Learned new shifting and down shifting techniques.
-and more

In the end, I now feel more educated about the risks we face and how to avoid them and I have a cool certificate good for an insurance discount. Also important, I made some new riding friends and had a very enjoyable weekend.  In my opinion, this type of training far exceeded my expectations and was totally worthwhile and an enjoyable way to spend a weekend.  Look for my Advance Rider Training patch on my jacket at the next rally and I’ll tell you all about the course.   
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Solomookie on May 16, 2016, 06:48:27 pm
Very informative write-up, Steve.  Thanks!  Sounds like time well spent.   :great:
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 16, 2016, 07:11:39 pm
Thanks, One of the riders has been riding for I believe 32 years and is 78 years young.  I also understand that this may have been the third time he took the one of these courses.  His point was you are never too old or too good to learn something new. He also wanted our group to get back together in 3 years for a ride.    :motonoises:
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 17, 2016, 09:38:27 am
A very timely topic. Advanced instruction is probably something all us need but ignore for one reason or another. I had a conversation with Steve Smith regarding motorcyclists seeking advanced instruction and maybe he will chime in. I did take away from that talk that most riders don't understand how a training instructor can help until they actually take a course. All of the bullet items in your list describe a more involved rider, a more aware rider then when the eyes open; the skills increase. Congratulations with your training! Makes want to find the time and course to do the same.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 17, 2016, 10:04:31 am
I had a long conversation with Steve Smith recently about the Stayin Safe Program.  Steve knows a lot about it, and asked me to post up about my experience.  The program was started by Larry Grodsky, and is now run by Eric Trow.  I should have mentioned in my first post that Randy is Randy Kuklis, who is a senior instructor and was trained by Larry Grodsky. 

Hopefully Steve does jump in on this thread.  I would like to hear his thoughts about this program versus parking lot training and the other common method, which is track days.

Here is a link to the history of the program started by Larry Grodsky.
http://www.stayinsafe.com/mr-safety/ (http://www.stayinsafe.com/mr-safety/)
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Chuck Landis on May 17, 2016, 10:11:30 am
Sounds like money well spent. I'm glad you had a good time. Lord knows I need a safety course.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: bearbait on May 17, 2016, 11:10:47 am
Steve wrote a great review of our Stayin Safe course. It was great getting constant instruction, it was like Eric and Randy were connected to your brain. They do small groups, six participants, one instructor for three riders. So, you get a lot of one to one attention. They also made it fun easy to learn. 

Training in a parking lot is a start, but learning on the awesome twisties of Pa. and Ohio really gave me new and especially safe riding experience. As some of you know I went down at the Northeast Spring Fling last year. My riding confidence was lost that day even though I have been riding for over 30 years. I rode 311 miles home yesterday on mostly secondary roads in Pa. and automatically used my new training. My confidence is back and as Eric says it, "Riding With Purpose ".

If I remember, Stayin Safe is offered in 10 locations across the 48 states. Check it out on their website, you will not regret spending the money. There is no price on safety!  BB
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Solomookie on May 17, 2016, 11:43:06 am
I think what sets this training aside from other programs is the fact that the instructor is riding with you and communicating via radio to your ear buds. 

It was great getting constant instruction, it was like Eric and Randy were connected to your brain.

That's really interesting.  Do they provide communicators that you install on your own helmets, or are you able to use your own? 
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 17, 2016, 01:21:26 pm
I think what sets this training aside from other programs is the fact that the instructor is riding with you and communicating via radio to your ear buds. 

It was great getting constant instruction, it was like Eric and Randy were connected to your brain.

That's really interesting.  Do they provide communicators that you install on your own helmets, or are you able to use your own?
They provide the radios and easily switch up channels to talk to everyone or to break riders into groups with an instructor.  All that you need are a set of earbuds.  Communication is one way, so you can talk all you want and no one will hear you.  If stopped, you can unplug the earbuds and use the radio like a traditional walkie talkie.  It was a great system and very clear communication. 
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Rain Dancer on May 20, 2016, 10:33:12 pm
Thanks for the write up. I was hoping to take that course at some point. Glad you both felt it was money well spent.
As was said earlier, never too good to learn!  :great:
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 20, 2016, 11:22:50 pm
I just finished about an hour ride trying to incorporate "looking ahead 12 seconds" 1st observation was how many intersections (driveways, secondary roads, shortcuts, etc.) you can see with that mindset instead of just coming upon them. I also noticed that if I was following 1 or 2 cars that I anticipated a change such as a curve, oncoming traffic, vehicles doing unexpected maneuvers before the lead vehicle. You could tell from their braking or steering patterns that they were not seeing all they could. But it is so hard to maintain that all inclusive vision. Thanks 4bikes
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: bearbait on May 20, 2016, 11:29:58 pm
I just finished about an hour ride trying to incorporate "looking ahead 12 seconds" 1st observation was how many intersections (driveways, secondary roads, shortcuts, etc.) you can see with that mindset instead of just coming upon them. I also noticed that if I was following 1 or 2 cars that I anticipated a change such as a curve, oncoming traffic, vehicles doing unexpected maneuvers before the lead vehicle. You could tell from their braking or steering patterns that they were not seeing all they could. But it is so hard to maintain that all inclusive vision. Thanks 4bikes

There was a lot of reinforcement from the instructors through the radios. It takes a lot of practice. I drove 4 hours in my car today and found myself looking ahead as far as I could see. BB
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 21, 2016, 01:53:45 am
I rode to the NE Spring Fling rally yesterday with a fellow Cogger Jack.   Today I passed on riding with a group and ventured out on my own for over 200 miles to reinforce what I learned. I came across two deer in the middle of the road and saw them in plenty of time to stop. It does pay to look ahead. It's interesting to ride using the new techniques.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 22, 2016, 09:44:42 am
Deer lack traction control on pavement, glad you stopped. 4bikes; can you explain a bit more about "riding style #1 and riding style #2" for negotiating a curve? It sounds as if #1 uses very little braking where the second style is about using the brakes to enter a turn. Did I misunderstand?
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 22, 2016, 10:04:57 am
Deer lack traction control on pavement, glad you stopped. 4bikes; can you explain a bit more about "riding style #1 and riding style #2" for negotiating a curve? It sounds as if #1 uses very little braking where the second style is about using the brakes to enter a turn. Did I misunderstand?
Style #1 and style #2 are completely different techniques and each has its own merits. You want to pick one or the other and not combine the two. 

Style #1 has you entering the turn at a proper speed that requires no braking. Once in the turn apply throttle control and accelerate out of the turn.

Style#2 has you heading towards the turn with more speed and a deliberate application of the brakes for at least 3 seconds.  Very smooth application of the brakes no matter how slight to essentially get you into the turn at the proper speed and again throttle control exiting the turn.

A bit hard to explain but we did style 1 and then on the second day worked on style 2. Both involve throttle control to setup the suspension in the turn. Style #2 can involve throttle and braking together to set the suspension.  You would need to see and do it to understand. Some of this was new to me and made a difference.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: bearbait on May 22, 2016, 10:45:15 am
It hard to explain what 4bikes just stated. In Style #2 braking into a turn and keeping a little throttle on so the weight transfer is already neutral going into the turn. Instead of waiting to throttle up coming out of the corner to transfer from slowing to accelerating, raising the front of the bike to exit the corner completing the turn.

Bottom line, Eric and Randy know the proper language to explain these procedures so even I could understand. There is no better method to learn then from the experts. The radio communication used at Stayin Safe provides real time instruction. A great investment in your riding ability and safety!  BB
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Solomookie on May 22, 2016, 12:30:46 pm
Style #1 has you entering the turn at a proper speed that requires no braking. Once in the turn apply throttle control and accelerate out of the turn.

Style #1 sounds like the concept behind "the Pace".  If you haven't already, check it out.  It has its own topic link at the top of the Motorcycle Safety board.  Very interesting read.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 23, 2016, 08:57:48 am
Style #1 sounds like what I describe as riding "fluidly" I have been learning more about Connie's ability to hold the road through proper shifting. I never used to shift in the turn, preferring to downshift before entering and holding a little throttle to ride that gear out until the bike was upright. But all curves are not created equally and the bike sometimes begs to shift to maintain a fluid speed through the turn. Maintaining speed before a curve and then scrubbing it with braking is foreign to me. Seems like you are really multi-tasking as wouldn't the rider be downshifting as braking occurs?
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 23, 2016, 09:28:02 am
For those interested in the course, here is the contact info.  Eric Trow is offering a 10% COG discount if we organize a private COG group training event.  COG needs to organize the event and decide upon the location(s), or use one of their training rides.   :motonoises:  I have been in contact with Steve Smith about this offer. 

Eric Trow
Principal, Chief Instructor
 
Stayin’ Safe/The A.R.T. of Motorcycling LLC
991 5th Street
Irwin, PA  15642
(724) 771-2269
etrow@stayinsafe.com
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: S Smith on May 27, 2016, 10:01:28 pm
Staying Safe offered their course at one or two past national rallies. IMHO This is the best place for them to offer it to get enough COG members to sign up and take a course. (We've done the same thing offer MSF ERC). Based on my experience setting up rider education courses for COG in the NE, I don't see it working well any other way. We don't seem to get enough signed up as folks have to ride in, take course, and ride home. Stayin Safe has not responded to the suggestion for them to offer their course at a national or regional rally. If getting our members to sign up is their desire, I wish Stayin Safe would become COG Industry Members and offer a standing 10% discount for our member to take the course regardless if we filled a private course or not. (This was also suggested to them)

All street rider training is based on the same findings of the Hurt report, and all teach basically the same concepts and skills. For most riders who have never taken rider training, even a MSF ERC or ARC will provide improvement at a much lower cost than an on-street course.



Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: bearbait on May 27, 2016, 10:44:46 pm
Staying Safe offered their course at one or two past national rallies. IMHO This is the best place for them to offer it to get enough COG members to sign up and take a course. (We've done the same thing offer MSF ERC). Based on my experience setting up rider education courses for COG in the NE, I don't see it working well any other way. We don't seem to get enough signed up as folks have to ride in, take course, and ride home. Stayin Safe has not responded to the suggestion for them to offer their course at a national or regional rally. If getting our members to sign up is their desire, I wish Stayin Safe would become COG Industry Members and offer a standing 10% discount for our member to take the course regardless if we filled a private course or not. (This was also suggested to them)

All street rider training is based on the same findings of the Hurt report, and all teach basically the same concepts and skills. For most riders who have never taken rider training, even a MSF ERC or ARC will provide improvement at a much lower cost than an on-street course.

Steve, I have taken all the MSF courses and there is no comparison with Stayin Safe. Stayin Safe only do small groups of riders so they can provide intense training, one instructor for three riders. Riding in a parking lot is great for slow speed training. Stayin Safe did that part in less than hour including practice. MSF, in my opinion did not instruct this procedure in a way that made it easy. Stayin Safe taught higher rpm, clutch control, along with using the rear brake to control the bike.

The instructors were with you all day talking through lunch, dinner, breakfast, and evening conversation. There are even stops along the road for chalk drawings on the road.

Bottom line, I feel MSF is great for new riders, there is no substitute for on the road training. The radio communication into your helmet from the instructors gave us real time training on great twisty roads. You get what you pay for. It's like buying a $100.00 helmet instead of quality one for say, $400.00+. BB
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: S Smith on May 27, 2016, 11:11:23 pm
Staying Safe offered their course at one or two past national rallies. IMHO This is the best place for them to offer it to get enough COG members to sign up and take a course. (We've done the same thing offer MSF ERC). Based on my experience setting up rider education courses for COG in the NE, I don't see it working well any other way. We don't seem to get enough signed up as folks have to ride in, take course, and ride home. Stayin Safe has not responded to the suggestion for them to offer their course at a national or regional rally. If getting our members to sign up is their desire, I wish Stayin Safe would become COG Industry Members and offer a standing 10% discount for our member to take the course regardless if we filled a private course or not. (This was also suggested to them)

All street rider training is based on the same findings of the Hurt report, and all teach basically the same concepts and skills. For most riders who have never taken rider training, even a MSF ERC or ARC will provide improvement at a much lower cost than an on-street course.

Steve, I have taken all the MSF courses and there is no comparison with Stayin Safe. Stayin Safe only do small groups of riders so they can provide intense training, one instructor for three riders. Riding in a parking lot is great for slow speed training. Stayin Safe did that part in less than hour including practice. MSF, in my opinion did not instruct this procedure in a way that made it easy. Stayin Safe taught higher rpm, clutch control, along with using the rear brake to control the bike.

The instructors were with you all day talking through lunch, dinner, breakfast, and evening conversation. There are even stops along the road for chalk drawings on the road.

Bottom line, I feel MSF is great for new riders, there is no substitute for on the road training. The radio communication into your helmet from the instructors gave us real time training on great twisty roads. You get what you pay for. It's like buying a $100.00 helmet instead of quality one for say, $400.00+. BB


So, you agree with what I wrote? 

I did not state on-street is not worth the $$. In my professional experience, riders who've never taken any rider training are able to better learn and practice new skills in a controlled environment without real world distractions. (BTW - MSF offers a on-street course) Most, if not all on-street training begins with rider evaluation - probably what the parking lot portion was - which might lead to a rider being dismissed if they do not meet minimum requirements. This unfortunately would negate "you get what you pay for."

Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: bearbait on May 27, 2016, 11:35:35 pm
Staying Safe offered their course at one or two past national rallies. IMHO This is the best place for them to offer it to get enough COG members to sign up and take a course. (We've done the same thing offer MSF ERC). Based on my experience setting up rider education courses for COG in the NE, I don't see it working well any other way. We don't seem to get enough signed up as folks have to ride in, take course, and ride home. Stayin Safe has not responded to the suggestion for them to offer their course at a national or regional rally. If getting our members to sign up is their desire, I wish Stayin Safe would become COG Industry Members and offer a standing 10% discount for our member to take the course regardless if we filled a private course or not. (This was also suggested to them)

All street rider training is based on the same findings of the Hurt report, and all teach basically the same concepts and skills. For most riders who have never taken rider training, even a MSF ERC or ARC will provide improvement at a much lower cost than an on-street course.

Steve, I have taken all the MSF courses and there is no comparison with Stayin Safe. Stayin Safe only do small groups of riders so they can provide intense training, one instructor for three riders. Riding in a parking lot is great for slow speed training. Stayin Safe did that part in less than hour including practice. MSF, in my opinion did not instruct this procedure in a way that made it easy. Stayin Safe taught higher rpm, clutch control, along with using the rear brake to control the bike.

The instructors were with you all day talking through lunch, dinner, breakfast, and evening conversation. There are even stops along the road for chalk drawings on the road.

Bottom line, I feel MSF is great for new riders, there is no substitute for on the road training. The radio communication into your helmet from the instructors gave us real time training on great twisty roads. You get what you pay for. It's like buying a $100.00 helmet instead of quality one for say, $400.00+. BB


So, you agree with what I wrote.

No I don't agree, this course 4bikes and I took is not meant for large groups. One instructor for every three riders is the way the Stayin Safe course worked for me. I would have not learned near what I learned at the two day course. Maybe Eric Trow can come up with a different type of training for larger groups, but it would not be of a caliber as his Advanced Rider Training.

All six riders on the course highly praised the program about how much they learned. The youngest was 54 and the oldest was 78. Also I need to mention when I now find myself using some of the training while driving my car. Yes, it is expensive and many may not have the funds to take the course. I'm retired, on a limited income, but I plan to save up enough money to take the course every two or three years to keep sharp. BB
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 28, 2016, 09:46:48 am
I think that Bearbait is agreeing with you in 1 respect Steve. He wrote of losing confidence earlier in the thread and this course gave him validation that he should continue riding. Not only that, but he transferred the new driving skills he learned to driving his cage. And isn't this what any instructor hopes for with a student? Doesn't matter what the particular activity might be, if good skills transfer from say preparing a meal to planning a trip, does it matter how the skill was developed?

The small group that BB was in allowed the instructors to learn quite a bit more about the student than the chance your MSF course instructor has. This is not a knock on you, cause about the only bad thing I can say about you is that you introduced me to Big W where I overeat without having to chew!   :-[  Back to teaching, I think the wisest statement that I ever heard was from a master ski instructor. He said that his role as an instructor was not to teach specific movements to show the student how to ski, but to remove the obstacles of the individual so that the student may experience the correct set of skills necessary to ski the mountain. Small groups give a properly trained instructor the ideal environment to help the student through their individual barriers. And this happened for BB in a real world situation. That skill development is incorporated at a higher level than what happens in a parking lot.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 28, 2016, 09:47:19 am
The Stayin Safe Advanced Training should only be for experienced riders. The other courses are better suited for beginners and higher and definitely have their place and can be very effective as well. The training for both types is really all based on the same principles. So for a variety of reasons, including financial, Stayin Safe will not be for everyone.

Moving beyond the parking lot and changing up how you ride, and the coaching while riding with a group on challenging roads can be uncomfortable at times. Think sensory overload. There is risk and cost for this training, but there are also rewards.

In the end, I would rather see 1000's of riders get some level of training, than a handful get advanced training. One thing that struck me hard, is seeing how many things I could be doing better while riding.  I think many of those things could be done with the other safety courses.  Try a safety course, read a book, and become a better rider would be my advice. You will always hear someone raving about a track day, or course they took because of the profound impact it makes on your riding and awareness. Whatever time and money spent, it will be worth it.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: S Smith on May 28, 2016, 12:22:31 pm
I've been involved with providing motorcycle safety training for nearly 20 years. I've taken a lot of training too. As I mentioned, the mental and physical skills taught in ALL street rider education courses is based on the accident and injury causation findings of the "Hurt Report (http://www.clarity.net/adam/hurt-report.html)" from the early 80's. Read the Summary of Findings and see how it relates to what is taught in current rider training offerings.

4Bikes hits the nail on the head... any training is better than no training.  Every rider should do something. I have found that within COG, our members tend to be more mature-minded, touring riders. Safety, proper gear, training, etc tend to be more in the forefront of their minds. There are many riders out there who are overconfident or naive of their skills and feel they do not need to take rider training. Yet these same people will spend hundreds on golf & tennis pros, or ski/snowboard lessons to name only a few.

Stayin Safe is a great program. (BTW - MSF has had a similar on-street course using headsets, but I do not see many state programs running it - probably due to cost and liability) These courses may not be for everyone. Stayin Safe and other similar on-street and track programs like CSS come at a hefty price tag that may be out of reach for a vast number of riders. Find something that is affordable. Even taking a parking lot course like total Control or MSF ERC riders will come away learning at least one new thing or improve one skill. Isn;t this what it's about?

 
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 28, 2016, 01:36:50 pm

In the end, I would rather see 1000's of riders get some level of training, than a handful get advanced training. One thing that struck me hard, is seeing how many things I could be doing better while riding.
I've been involved with providing motorcycle safety training for nearly 20 years. I've taken a lot of training too. As I mentioned, the mental and physical skills taught in ALL street rider education courses is based on the accident and injury causation findings of the "Hurt Report (http://www.clarity.net/adam/hurt-report.html)" from the early 80's. Read the Summary of Findings and see how it relates to what is taught in current rider training offerings.

4Bikes hits the nail on the head... any training is better than no training.  Every rider should do something. I have found that within COG, our members tend to be more mature-minded, touring riders. Safety, proper gear, training, etc tend to be more in the forefront of their minds. There are many riders out there who are overconfident or naive of their skills and feel they do not need to take rider training. Yet these same people will spend hundreds on golf & tennis pros, or ski/snowboard lessons to name only a few.


^
+1000 Read the Hurt Summary. #'s 12 & 55 are really telling
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: JimBob on May 28, 2016, 06:06:32 pm
Quote
+1000 Read the Hurt Summary. #'s 12 & 55 are really telling

Hey Diz, what are you referring to with #12 & 55? I have the PDF open, but there's no section 55, and section 12 is the summary.

Are you referring to pages? Cause page 12 is just methodolgy.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: S Smith on May 28, 2016, 06:45:48 pm
Quote
+1000 Read the Hurt Summary. #'s 12 & 55 are really telling

Hey Diz, what are you referring to with #12 & 55? I have the PDF open, but there's no section 55, and section 12 is the summary.

Are you referring to pages? Cause page 12 is just methodolgy.

Thanks!

I feel he means the summary items of these numbers


Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 29, 2016, 02:18:02 am
Jim Bob; when I opened the supplied link, the top 55 items of motorcycle unsafety listed by the Hurt report is what I was able to view. # 12 and #55 were items that identified common causes for accidents or crashes. Found those particular observations to be revealing about the state of motorcycle drivers.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 29, 2016, 11:15:27 am
A fellow Cogger Jack mailed me two books and magazines with the Stayin Safe articles. The first book is Total Control by Lee Parks, and the second is Stayin Safe the Art and Science of Riding Really Well by Larry Grodsky.  :great: :great: :great:

In the Hurt Report, this consecutive grouping stands out to me and are countered by taking a training a course. In many ways, all of the 55 summary items seem to come down to avoiding the the accident in the first place.

24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.

25. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly underrepresented in the accident data.

26. Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident.

27. Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.

28. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 29, 2016, 09:20:03 pm
You stated that you were practicing increased situational awareness when you came upon the deer in the road; was there any swerving or hard emergency braking when you came to a stop? It sounded as if you saw the deer long before any heart stopping moment could occur. Training and practice did not make you a statistic.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on May 29, 2016, 10:05:45 pm
You stated that you were practicing increased situational awareness when you came upon the deer in the road; was there any swerving or hard emergency braking when you came to a stop? It sounded as if you saw the deer long before any heart stopping moment could occur. Training and practice did not make you a statistic.
In that case yes, I came over a blind crest and looked far ahead as possible and saw them. I also noted that another vehicle had not come my way for over 10 minutes and it was a rural road in a state forrest.  I was not a surprised and I easily checked up and was on the horns. All of that came from my recent training. Before that training, it may have still worked out but a much bigger and urgent stop on the brakes. 

Back the Hurt summary. I was surprised to see the low percentage of MC crashes caused by animals. That is high up on my list of gotchas while riding since they are so unpredictable.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: JimBob on May 30, 2016, 02:49:51 am
Jim Bob; when I opened the supplied link, the top 55 items of motorcycle unsafety listed by the Hurt report is what I was able to view. # 12 and #55 were items that identified common causes for accidents or crashes. Found those particular observations to be revealing about the state of motorcycle drivers.

Ah, thanks - I had the report open from a different source, in the original (non-web) format, so it looked different. The link in the first post here has that list. Got it.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: JimBob on May 30, 2016, 02:58:58 am
Quote
12. Most motorcycle accidents involve a short trip associated with shopping, errands, friends, entertainment or recreation, and the accident is likely to happen in a very short time close to the trip origin.

Well, this is the same with cars, but it's misleading. Of necessity, ALL TRIPSbegin with the driver/rider "close to trip origin", while only long rides have riders farther from origin. It's basic math. Also, we do a LOT more short trips than long ones, in general. The stat doesn't really mean much as it stands (without more vectors/metrics); though we can possibly infer we experience a little attentional blindness in familiar surroundings.

Quote
55. Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property.

I wish they'd been more clear on this - did they lack collision insurance, med insurance or both? Did they have other forms of medical coverage from other sources? Keeping in mind this study started in '75, who would have insurance on a bike (I didn't in the 80's-bike/car weren't valuable enough)? Certainly there's a greater variety of higher-cost motorcycles today, and the average age has increased with greater purchasing power.
 
The Hurt Report certainly provides a great baseline, but boy it's been what - 30+ years since it's conclusions. Lots has changed, both in the riding environment and especially the ability to collect, study and dissect data.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Ranger Jim on May 30, 2016, 10:30:20 am
RE: #12 - The fact that most crashes happen close to home is also largely due to the fact that we become complacent to covering very familiar territory. You've seen the curves, intersections, driveways, etc so many times that you (essentially) stop looking at them and virtually go onto autopilot. If anyone or anything unusual occurs, the surprise factor can be overwhelming because you're not concentrating.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on May 30, 2016, 05:37:00 pm
RE: #12 - The fact that most crashes happen close to home is also largely due to the fact that we become complacent to covering very familiar territory. You've seen the curves, intersections, driveways, etc so many times that you (essentially) stop looking at them and virtually go onto autopilot. If anyone or anything unusual occurs, the surprise factor can be overwhelming because you're not concentrating.

^
+1
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on June 28, 2016, 11:15:21 am
The group of six that I trained with for the Stayin Safe course continue to be in contact, including the two instructors.  We pass along things that we learned, etc. so I continue to learn and will share.  Here is a an example from rider David Y.

Participant Feedback -- Stayin’ Safe Motorcycle Safety Training – spring 2016

Now more than a month after two intense days of on-road, Stayin’ Safe Motorcycle Training, I’m a lot clearer about its impact on my riding. Integration is the key concept for me and it results from continually evaluating past misadventures and asking how to avoid doing again what made them misadventures.

Here are three examples where Stayin’ Safe Training help me pull individual concepts together:

1. Light hands used to mean am I relaxed? Is my riding posture comfortable, not tense? Are my shoulders down and not hurting or stressed? Now light hands mean heavy feet. Am I leaning the bike by changing my weight on the pegs? Am I transferring butt weight down to the balls of my feet? Are my knees in and relaxed? Am I using my entire body (body steering) by moving forward and to the side to create more lean control? Am I aware of how my left handgrip moves forward and down when I’m initiating a left hand turn (countersteering) In other words does my bike lean like a bicycle starting a turn? Can I make the bike LEAN with light hands? Yep.

2. Do a mirror check every 5 to 7 seconds used to mean do a mirror check every 5 to 7 seconds -- or feel guilty. Now do a mirror check every 5 to 7 seconds is a suggestion about how to insure “no surprises” and maintain 360 degree awareness about what might threaten me from behind, from either side, or from ahead. It means trying to focus on the greatest risks and balance attention among them. Sounds like common sense but adding in “put your bike where they can’t get you” and maintain relentless attention adds up to a more integrated approach. You put yourself at the center of your visual circle and break the circle up into perhaps 6 sections. Your eyes rotate around the circle looking for the potential risks in each section. You rearrange your crash potential priorities at each click around the circle and pay most attention to those sections with the greatest risk. Sounds simple but every surprise car in your blind spot is a screw up.

3. Smooth riding used to mean pulling off a snick shift (instead of a clunk) every once in a while. Now fork travel gets my attention. Every abrupt movement of the forks signals an opportunity to get better at shifting, braking, or steering through road crud. Low speed control of simultaneous clutch, throttle, brake, and body weight management has direct application to high-speed bike smoothness. We only have a few controls to use but using them all at the same time is a stretch. A good stretch  especially when done daily.

In my integrated head, a rider can only do two things:
1.   change speed or 2.  change road position.

Skills that lead to safer riding involve preparing to do both, then doing them well.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Ranger Jim on June 28, 2016, 11:32:22 am
In my opinion, the Stayin' Safe course is (arguably) the best course available to riders who have some experience and want to continue to improve. As the training is done in small groups, you have the advantage of virtually one-on-one coaching. Since it's done on the roadways and not in a parking lot, you are dealing with the "real world." If you apply yourself and look at the "Why's" of the skills they encourage you develop, you become a much more analytical rider and have a much greater understanding of how you can control your motorcycle.

Yes, it is an expensive class but when you put it into the context of what you can gain it is well worth the cost.  I plan to take it sometime.
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: 4Bikes on June 28, 2016, 12:14:47 pm
I had a great conversation with Ranger Jim at the Helen Rally about motorcycle safety.  Jim is the former COG Safety officer, and I can tell you that he knows this subject well to the point where I think he could easily be a Stayin Safe instructor.   :great:
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Ranger Jim on June 28, 2016, 01:51:31 pm
 :c017: I appreciate the kind words. TCARS!  :motonoises:
Title: Re: Advanced Motorcycle Training Course
Post by: Diz on June 29, 2016, 12:22:45 am
Back the Hurt summary. I was surprised to see the low percentage of MC crashes caused by animals. That is high up on my list of gotchas while riding since they are so unpredictable.

I have been trying to develop better situational awareness and this quote has come back to me many times. Since I read those lines; a near collision with a buzzard I startled next to the road feeding, 2 near collisions with turkeys that decided the other side of the road might be better, drove around a good sized snapping turtle, had multiple deer sightings on the shoulder of the road, braked hard for 1 deer, braked hard for 1 cow, squished a bunch of chipmunks (Cleaning the bike is a b@#$ch) had a song bird fly into my chest and stopped completely to let a bear cross. I have thought each time that I was glad I was trying to pay attention to the moment. No way to anticipate animals.