Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Motorcycle Talk => Motorcycle Safety => Topic started by: S Smith on October 25, 2012, 11:07:20 am

Title: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: S Smith on October 25, 2012, 11:07:20 am
Here is a link to an article from AMA on current ABS system technology...

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx (http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx)

Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Sport Rider on October 25, 2012, 06:18:22 pm
Interesting article.  I don't follow all the arguements pro and con, but I found some of the myths to be a stretch, even with my limited knowledge on the subject.  by that, I mean, I can't believe some people actually believe those myths cause they seem like no-brainers to me.

This one I'm not sure I agree with their answer though:
Myth: ABS can overcome a lack of riding skill.
Absolutely not. Neither ABS nor any other type of motorcycle technology can replace experience and proper training. For example, a rider who has not learned how to properly use the front brake will not stop effectively and safelty using just the rear brake, whether the motorcycle is equipped with ABS or not.


I guess I read it a little more granularly than how they answered it.  I think ABS does not OVERCOME a lack of skills, but it does make an unskilled rider safer in their stopping, even if done wrong.  ie - if they only use the rear brake, the ABS would keep them from locking it up like is such a common newb thing to do.  Perhaps I'm just mis-interpreting the myth though.

Only my opinion, of course, and I'll appologize now for being incorrect!   ;D ;D
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: S Smith on October 25, 2012, 06:53:06 pm
ABS can prevent lock up due to overbraking, but proper and effective braking requires use of both brakes.  The front brake provides 70% or more braking power, so that rear brake alone only provides 30% or less. 

IMHO ABS can shorten the stopping distance when compared to a locked-up, skidding tire, but a rider who can perform proper maximum braking techniques (threshold braking) should stop in a shorter distance than if the ABS system engaged.

Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: llmotoll on October 25, 2012, 07:12:34 pm
good stuff, thanks for posting it Steve.

Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Slybones on October 25, 2012, 10:04:52 pm
Interesting article.  I don't follow all the arguements pro and con, but I found some of the myths to be a stretch, even with my limited knowledge on the subject.  by that, I mean, I can't believe some people actually believe those myths cause they seem like no-brainers to me.

This one I'm not sure I agree with their answer though:
Myth: ABS can overcome a lack of riding skill.
Absolutely not. Neither ABS nor any other type of motorcycle technology can replace experience and proper training. For example, a rider who has not learned how to properly use the front brake will not stop effectively and safelty using just the rear brake, whether the motorcycle is equipped with ABS or not.


I guess I read it a little more granularly than how they answered it.  I think ABS does not OVERCOME a lack of skills, but it does make an unskilled rider safer in their stopping, even if done wrong.  ie - if they only use the rear brake, the ABS would keep them from locking it up like is such a common newb thing to do.  Perhaps I'm just mis-interpreting the myth though.

Only my opinion, of course, and I'll appologize now for being incorrect!   ;D ;D


Quote from: S Smith
ABS can prevent lock up due to overbraking, but proper and effective braking requires use of both brakes.  The front brake provides 70% or more braking power, so that rear brake alone only provides 30% or less. 

IMHO ABS can shorten the stopping distance when compared to a locked-up, skidding tire, but a rider who can perform proper maximum braking techniques (threshold braking) should stop in a shorter distance than if the ABS system engaged.

When I did the motor officer training course, we did braking sessions twice a day, every day. My observation was of the 7 people in the class 5 of them initially tended to car it, as it was referred to. They hit the rear brakes hard, locked them up, skidded a long long way and only moderate use of the front brake.  -- I think the initial comment in the article is oriented towards these 5 and says that ABS is not going to save them.

There were 2 in the class ( me as one of them ) that tended to over use the front brake. Just grap a handful. I think ABS can help this group of people. I would think these are the same/similar to low traction conditions, albeit low traction conditions its easier yet to over use the front brake.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Jorge on October 27, 2012, 11:44:09 am
Myths???? How about this one published as a safety article on braking in the Abate (state motorcycle organization):
... locking rear wheel will cause a slide and you will go faster...
Wow! With those physics laws we would not need amy petroleum!
Jorge
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Pistole on October 27, 2012, 01:51:11 pm
- rear/front brake use and ABS are two different issues.

.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: 2linby on October 27, 2012, 08:13:13 pm
ABS can prevent lock up due to overbraking, but proper and effective braking requires use of both brakes.  The front brake provides 70% or more braking power, so that rear brake alone only provides 30% or less. 


Whoa there buddy!  Not so fast with the math there.  70% front braking + 30% rear braking = 100% total braking. Is that about right?  :-[  Just curious....... ;)
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: CRocker on October 27, 2012, 11:13:10 pm
My thought is 70% front braking plus 30% rear braking equals at least 115% when you factor the "pucker power" into a stop like that! ;)
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Cap'n Bob on October 28, 2012, 08:07:29 am
   IMO, There is no debate on ABS systems for me. Folks should always still practice their braking whether or not they have ABS. But I see no real down side with ABS. Sometimes there are circumstances that no human is going to overcome. So any trade off for ABS is worth it.
     Whether or not it's considered a good thing or better. I'll take it any day. My C10's both would lock the rear tire with the most minimum of brake pedal pressure. The 2003 resulted in a titanium elbow. And my 86 locked up on the highway the other night headed home from the NE area Fall rally. For some reason someone missed their turn and decided to stop in the middle of the highway. So cars started braking and going every which way. I saw it happening and slowed but to my surprise, still managed to lock the rear brake. I could not believe I still managed to lock the rear brake even though I was fully aware or it and was braking accordingly. Thankfully I had enough experience and time to release it a regain full control.
   Sometimes I think your better off just not using the the rear brake at all on the C10. I'm getting the opinion that it might be more dangerous using it that it is just taking your chances and going front only. I've had two bikes with ABS, and whether or not it is better or not for braking effectiveness. The fact remains that it is definitely better than having your rear brake locking if so much as a cloud coming out, like it can on the C10's. I'll take the ABS. Practicing your braking technique is always a good thing. But sometimes it just isn't enough. Of course this is just my opinion.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Slybones on October 28, 2012, 02:11:55 pm
I'll take the ABS. Practicing your braking technique is always a good thing. But sometimes it just isn't enough. Of course this is just my opinion.

+1
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: The10KGuy on October 28, 2012, 07:40:24 pm
This is from some ABS article I ran across...I understand ABS better now.  ::)
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Bergmen on November 08, 2012, 04:00:40 pm
Well, I have not ridden a motorcycle with ABS but on two occasions ABS prevented me from stopping as fast as I would otherwise have in autos, the second one resulting in a collision.

First incident: I am just leaving my house and I'm down the road about 1/2 mile when a large buck jumps out in front of me going from right to left. I am in a 1988 Corvette, four wheel disk brakes and ABS. I hammer the brakes and get significant push-back because of the ABS. My stopping distance is increased dramatically and the only reason I don't hit the deer is he cleared the car before I got to where he was.

Second incident: I'm driving our 2003 Suburban (four wheel disk brakes, 2WD, ABS) out on a rural two lane road, speed limit 45mph. We come upon an old Mercedes cruising on the shoulder about 15mph, occupants appear to be checking out some farm animals to the right. I move out gently to pass, straddling the centerline. Suddenly the moron decides to swing a U-turn right in front of us without looking. I slam on the brakes, get the same solid push-back as in the Corvette and hit the car in the left rear corner panel caving it in. No injuries but I am as furious with the idiot as I am at the ABS system that caused this. Had I been allowed to moderate braking to max capability there would have been no lockup and no collision.

I do not lock up wheels with disk brakes and never have (except for an early incident with my new 1969 Honda CB750 but that is a subject for another story). This in over four decades of driving and riding with disk brakes without ABS and many, many drop anchor panic stops, too many to count. This published myth is incorrect:

Myth: ABS may allow you to stop with more control, but it will take you longer to come to a stop.

It only compares ABS to locked up wheels. I would have to have it proven to me, unequivocally, that modern ABS systems can match my braking capabilities or I'm not going down that road. Modern disk brakes and state of the art tires can be moderated to the maximum braking effect without locking up in order to minimize stopping distances. This was impossible back in the drum brake era and crappy tires (especially cars with power brakes back in the day). Disk brakes and super sticky tires have revolutionized this.

This is just my opinion but I have not arrived at this lightly or with limited experience.

Dan
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Jorge on November 08, 2012, 04:33:06 pm
The idea behind ABS is that all tires get brake pressure applied right at the threshold of skidding, which is the maximum braking force. Since all vehicles that have linked brakes (i.e.: cars, trucks, some M/C's) have to be designed with a compromise in splitting the braking force from front to rear (and even left to right), I would expect that ABS will give shorter stopping distances almost always than non-ABS.
Taking your example of the Suburban (BTW, we have a 2001), the usable brake force at the rear with a driver only load, vs. with 8 people with luggage would be drastically different. Without ABS, the compromise means that to keep the rear wheels from locking up when empty would causelonger stopping distance when full. With ABS, you can hammer the brakes, and let the ABS proportion the braking forces to all the wheels, and shorten the distance. With a bike, I wish I had it, since locking the front means going down.
A friend attributes ABS with saving him in a situation where he had to apply maximum braking forces, and the ABS did that to both wheels without locking either.
There is a way to test this... measure the stopping distance with ABS, pull the fuse on the ABS system and repeat... might be an exciting test!! IF you decide to do it, be sure to post the video :-)
Jorge
One exception I can think of is in packed (but not icing) snow. Locking the tires can cause a "plowing" action that might get you stopped faster
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Egodriver71 on November 08, 2012, 07:33:12 pm
It's been proven many times that a 'good' driver can out brake ABS on dry pavement.

Keys to this are 'good' driver and dry pavement.

As much as each of us thinks we are 'good' drivers, the general masses are not.  And I'd be willing to lay odds that over 75% of the driving population could not out brake ABS on dry pavement.

The other BIG caveat is dry pavement.  ABS was really implemented more to handle panic stops in low tractions situations than it was in ideal conditions.

The last point is anybody out there trying to prove they can out brake ABS is NOT in a panic stop.  They know they are going to apply the brakes and not have the level of adrenalin in a TRUE panic stop.





Do I think ABS has its place, yes.  We don't have enough 'good' drivers out there to not have it.

Just like why understeer has to be designed into cars, even 'sports' cars.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Bergmen on November 08, 2012, 08:20:10 pm
It's been proven many times that a 'good' driver can out brake ABS on dry pavement.

Keys to this are 'good' driver and dry pavement.

As much as each of us thinks we are 'good' drivers, the general masses are not.  And I'd be willing to lay odds that over 75% of the driving population could not out brake ABS on dry pavement.

The other BIG caveat is dry pavement.  ABS was really implemented more to handle panic stops in low tractions situations than it was in ideal conditions.

The last point is anybody out there trying to prove they can out brake ABS is NOT in a panic stop.  They know they are going to apply the brakes and not have the level of adrenalin in a TRUE panic stop.

Do I think ABS has its place, yes.  We don't have enough 'good' drivers out there to not have it.

Just like why understeer has to be designed into cars, even 'sports' cars.

I do agree with you here. It is me vs. ABS. A little background:

I bought one of the first Honda CB750s that arrived in the Santa Clara Valley, California in July, 1969. This was the first modern mass produced motorcycle to have a hydraulic disk front brake. There were others but they were very limited and highly special and not among the "masses". This brake totally revolutionized motorcycle braking to the extent that the tire companies were far from the point of being able to produce and offer front tires capable of handling that powerful of a front brake. We all had ribbed front tires back then, tread was for cornering since braking was secondary because of what was available.

I came from a 1968 XLCH Sportster which had a single leading shoe front drum brake, maybe 30% effective as the disk on the Honda. My stopping habits were to mash the front brake to the max, no worries about locking up the tire.

Then somebody pulled in front of me on the Honda. I was not paying the attention I should have and hammered the brakes only to lock up the front tire and go down in the process. I was uninjured except for a few skin-ups but this taught me a lesson. I have never completely locked a front wheel on a motorcycle since.

I began a steady program of practice. I would conduct maximum braking tests to see where the traction limit was on whatever front tire I was running at the time. I (along with the magazines that were conducting road tests on the CB750) found how remarkable this brake could be modulated to the maximum without locking the tire. This was before modern elastomers that gave a bit of a warning before locking up but it was still possible to do.

I made it a point to practice regularly, sometimes daily. At the same time I was hammering the throttle to redline several times a day (this type of horsepower was instantly addicting). It was not hard to see that I was going through tires, both front and rear, at a pretty good pace.

The brakes on the CB750 were just as magnificent as the engine power and that magical 8,500 rpm redline. I became an expert at maximum braking, under all conditions and without incident.

I continue this regiment today. Practice, practice, practice. Scrutinize the tarmac for any compromises in traction and practice, practice, practice. Practice straight ahead, practice panic stops while leaned over (there is a technique here that works), practice in the rain, at night, uphill, downhill, freeways (when safe), rural bumpy roads, etc.

Today's brakes and tires are several generations more superior than the equipment I started this routine with, only adding to the effectiveness.

Others may find ABS to be valuable and I will not quarrel with that at all, it is a matter of personal choice. For me I do not need (or want) ABS on my motorcycles.

Dan
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: JPavlis_CA on November 08, 2012, 08:28:48 pm
The idea behind ABS is that all tires get brake pressure applied right at the threshold of skidding, which is the maximum braking force.

This is not quite right, Jorge. The idea behind ABS (to use use your words), as it was origionally designed for 4 wheeled vehicles is to prevent wheel lock while providing the ability to make directional changes while panic braking. If the average driver panic brakes on a car without ABS, the wheels will lock up and the car will continue in the same direction. With ABS pulsing the brake pressure, a driver can make directional changes, and possibly steer out of a collision.

Now ABS on bikes, while a good idea, has a problem with this original design intent in that if the rider attempts to steer around an obstacle with ABS activated on the front wheel, the bike will go down as the front tire skids everytime the full brake force is applied by the system.

Your comment about snow makes me think you have never actually driven in snowy conditions. If you had, you'd know that once your wheels lock and start skidding, it takes longer to stop. It would take a huge amount of snow to "pack" enough to stop a vehicle.

If you ever seen a vehicle equipped with ABS brakes attempt maximum braking on sand or snow, you can actually see the wheels momentarily lock up and skid with each on/off pulse of the system. When BMW first introduced ABS on their bikes, I saw a very effective demo of this. This was in a parking lot with sand scattered in a braking area. The rider would approach at 30 mph and try to maximum brake. Without ABS, the rear wheel locked up and he had to carefully modulate the front to avoid crashing. With ABS there was no drama - he just nailed the brakes and came to a stop. You could see the tires skidding with each pulse, and his stopping distance was shortened considerably with ABS, because he wasn't skidding. When the BMW people were asked about steering during panic stops with ABS activated, they said don't. Treat it the same as a non-ABS bike and get off the brakes.

I've had a couple of instances of the front ABS kicking in - both times my stopping distance lengthened from what I know it should have been based on riding the same roads on non-ABS bikes. So far I have found the ABS to be intrusive, but I have learned to live within its limits. But who knows, there might come that time when for whatever reason I may say I'm glad I had ABS.

ABS is a good thing, but you have to understand its limitations, such as not attempting to steer a two wheel vehicle while ABS is active and keeping the bike vertical, although it is getting much better. I read something recently about one of the new superbikes where the testers were getting shorter stops with the ABS active. Don't remember the details, though.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Jorge on November 08, 2012, 08:53:09 pm
Wow! Amazing how many comments...
I have never ridden a bike with ABS so cannot comment but sounds like maybe I should not so wanting of an ABS model?
I do practice, but will admit that the idea of locking the front wheel still intimidates me some.
You are correct that the main advantage of car ABS is ability to steer while stopping in low traction conditions. I also appreciate your comment about stopping in panic vs. Staged conditions... the teat would still be interesting; maybe I'll.try it just before I replace my tires before snow starts.
BTW I have lived  from age 9 in Chicago and central Indiana so yes    I've driven in snow maybe a few times :-(
My unique snow conditions were meant in very dry snow, where it dies NOT melt and re-freeze under your tires, the scraping & piling up of snow on front of the tires does (I believe) stop you faster than not locking up; these are very limited conditions which was the point of that comment.
If I do end up doing the test, I'll post up (no video though).
Jorge
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: JPavlis_CA on November 08, 2012, 09:18:50 pm
Another Ill-annoyan, huh?  I'm a Chicago boy, too, but I got out.   ;D

Panic stopping on dry snow....  either it's thin enough that your tire will contact pavement, or there's packed snow underneath. With pavement contact you'll stop pretty fast, with packed snow you're skidding. BTDT.   :-[

Try it sometime. Dry snow doesn't have much mass. Wet snow on the other hand....  But the "piling up" effect in either case adds very little to stopping a vehicle, until it gets deep enough to involve the frame, body, etc.  BTDT, too   :rotflmao:
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Bergmen on November 08, 2012, 09:27:16 pm
I do practice, but will admit that the idea of locking the front wheel still intimidates me some.

It should, but you can safely approach this threshold. Make sure you are on a clean, dry, level, straight road with good tarmac (asphalt seems to work best for initial testing), excellent visibility and no traffic (obviously). Tire pressures properly set, tires in good condition (more than 50% of original tread). ATGATT, of course.

Run up to about 50mph and do a hard stop with both brakes and get the feel of it, making certain that you are prefectly vertical and are applying even pressure with both arms to the handlebars. Do it once again, only increase the front braking while making sure the rear does not break loose. Breaking the rear loose to determine that threshold is very easy to determine. Subtley, you will gain front/rear modulation so that for every increment of front braking level, you will feed the rear in at a percentage of the front and prevent the wheel from locking. Practice will hone this.

Approach the braking increases gradually. You will get to the point where you can audibly hear the front tire begin to complain with a high pitched squall. You are approaching lockup but will find that it can be kept completely under your control. After two or three runs, let the brakes cool (they get mighty hot mighty fast) by making a straight run down the freeway for a mile or so.

Do this at varying speeds to gain confidence in the functions of your brakes and tires as well as your reflexes. Make a regular habit of practicing this, maybe everyday, until this becomes second nature. At this point in my riding career I will give myself a one second notice and hammer the brakes for practice, in a variety of locations, roads and conditions. Never in traffic while practicing, you do not want a 5,000 pound car dragging all four skins right up to your tail light.

Take your time, work up to this gradually and practice, practice, practice.

Dan
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Pistole on November 08, 2012, 09:36:50 pm
- with my abs'ed C14 , have been able to active the abs in the dry with the front brake so many times that I will never ever buy another motorcycle without abs.

.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Slybones on November 08, 2012, 09:57:17 pm
Well I disagree that the main advantage of ABS is to steer while stopping in low traction situations. I agree with the original comment the advantage is that you do not lock up the tires in low traction situations. The fact that you can make directional changes is one of the many benefits of not locking up your tires. But its not the only benefit and therefore not probably the original intent of ABS, just one of several benefits.

I understand that ABS has its limitations on an Motorcycle with regards to steering while ABS is enaged. But since I dont see that as the original intent of ABS, I dont see this as a design flaw of ABS on motorcycles. Its just not one of the benefits gained by ABS on a motorcycle. And yes riders should understand this limitation. But convincing Jorge that maybe he does not want ABS on his next bike because of this, is IMO, silly.

And Dan, I cannot believe that you just told someone to run their bike up to 50mph and make a hard stop to just get the feel of it.  -- I agree with much of what you just said. People should practice, practice, practice, at varying speeds, conditions, etc. And never in traffic... all of that. I think first they need to learn the proper technique of applying the front and rear brake. Then practice that at slow speeds to get the muscle memory going. Then increase the speeds and conditions. Continue to increase the speed as skill improves.  IMO anyone who only practices some, and is not a self proclaimed expert in braking under any circumstance should not just run out any start trying this at 50mph. IMO of couse.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: JPavlis_CA on November 08, 2012, 10:12:51 pm
Fred - ABS was developed for cars to make stopping safer for those drivers who just stomp on the pedal and skid into the object. Don't you remember all the TV commercials when ABS first came out telling us to stomp and steer? ABS was designed to make the idiot stompers safer, and it just so happened that ABS was also effective in low traction situations. But the original intent was to make cars safer by preventing skids. It certainly wasn't to make stops shorter as some of those early systems were truly horrible when it came to stopping distances.

As someone who grew up learning to drive on the midwest snow and ice, where we were taught to pump the pedal when braking, when ABS came out we had to learn a whole new way of braking. Which is why to this day, I find it intrusive.

Now, I don't see anyone here trying to convince Jorge he shouldn't get a bike with ABS; it's more of correcting some of the misconceptions around ABS.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Bergmen on November 08, 2012, 10:31:15 pm
And Dan, I cannot believe that you just told someone to run their bike up to 50mph and make a hard stop to just get the feel of it.  -- I agree with much of what you just said. People should practice, practice, practice, at varying speeds, conditions, etc. And never in traffic... all of that. I think first they need to learn the proper technique of applying the front and rear brake. Then practice that at slow speeds to get the muscle memory going. Then increase the speeds and conditions. Continue to increase the speed as skill improves.  IMO anyone who only practices some, and is not a self proclaimed expert in braking under any circumstance should not just run out any start trying this at 50mph. IMO of couse.

Maybe I should have been more clear about my definition of "hard stop". I am suggesting a work-up program to approach the threshold of determining on-set of wheel lock-up. Working up gradually as I indicated.

These motorcycles require a certain level of minimum operating skills in order to ride in a manner that lowers the risk level to acceptable levels. It is incumbent upon responsible and skilled motorcyclists to acquire these skills in a controlled and safe manner, and practice them on a regular basis. Maximum braking skills are developed with practice and proper scrutiny of operating conditions and a carefully controlled escalation of incremental increases in brake application forces. The better one is at this, the safer they will be, but this is only one component of being an all-around safe rider. There are many others, obviously, but I am only dealing with braking skills here.

All of this requires putting one's thinking cap on and taking this very seriously. The muscle memory that this exercise program will develop wil be available in a micro-second when the chips are down as an immediate reaction to a life threatening situation. I have spent hours and hours teaching my son these skills and we practice on a regular basis. I did not have to convince my son of the value of this, he is eager to learn.

As a side note to all of this (and OT for the moment), I just about ate it a couple of weeks ago on my way to meet my son for a day ride. I approached a "T" intersection where I was to stop and make a left turn to go north on State street. At about mid-turn as I was lightly accelerating out of the apex, the back wheel lost traction and kicked hard right such that I went full lock. In one second I was back straight again and I had to mentally go over what happened so I could understand what I did to recover.

As I thought of this, I was able to recount my actions. The instant the back kicked out I simultaneously slammed my left foot down, chopped the throttle and pulled in the clutch while every other sense and capability razor focused on regaining straight line control. I averted a nasty high-side as a result. It was over before I realized it but muscle memory and decades of riding and practice paid off. When I got to my son's house I went over the incident and we discussed this at length. He actually helped me reconstruct this and told me flat out that I saved my butt because of my approach to riding and my reactive skill sets. Gotta love that boy.

I never did figure out what caused this (although in hindsight I should have dismounted and felt the pavement). I did return to the scene of the crime and detected a slight odor of diesel fuel and chalked it up to a probable spill by a logging truck. Slimey stuff that diesel fuel and extremely difficult to see.

Dan
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: S Smith on November 09, 2012, 02:43:57 am

...motorcycles require a certain level of minimum operating skills in order to ride in a manner that lowers the risk level to acceptable levels. It is incumbent upon responsible and skilled motorcyclists to acquire these skills in a controlled and safe manner, and practice them on a regular basis. Maximum braking skills are developed with practice and proper scrutiny of operating conditions and a carefully controlled escalation of incremental increases in brake application forces. The better one is at this, the safer they will be, but this is only one component of being an all-around safe rider. There are many others, obviously, but I am only dealing with braking skills here.

+1
although I want to emphasize that if the rider should learn and become proficient with the max braking techniques in a motorcycle course if before practicing and perfecting the technique on your own at speed.   
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Bergmen on November 09, 2012, 03:06:07 am

...motorcycles require a certain level of minimum operating skills in order to ride in a manner that lowers the risk level to acceptable levels. It is incumbent upon responsible and skilled motorcyclists to acquire these skills in a controlled and safe manner, and practice them on a regular basis. Maximum braking skills are developed with practice and proper scrutiny of operating conditions and a carefully controlled escalation of incremental increases in brake application forces. The better one is at this, the safer they will be, but this is only one component of being an all-around safe rider. There are many others, obviously, but I am only dealing with braking skills here.

+1
although I want to emphasize that if the rider should learn and become proficient with the max braking techniques in a motorcycle course if before practicing and perfecting the technique on your own at speed.

I agree. I hope everyone understands that I am aiming my methods at motorcyclists who are at least at the intermediate level, not beginner or novice. I would expect that anyone who chooses a motorcycle in the class of the Concours (C10 or C14) would have some experience in riding and have progressed to the level of acquiring a 1000cc sport/touring motorcycle.

I do understand that there are first time riders who start off on the C10 Concours. For those individuals, my methods do not count, they need to establish at least an intermediate level of riding skills (and significant familiarity of Concours handling traits) before heading down the max braking trail.

Dan
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: danodemotoman on November 09, 2012, 05:00:40 am
  I understood right away what Dan stated.
 A man's gotta know his (bike/tires) limitations.
 Saved my a** a few times.


Maybe I should have been more clear about my definition of "hard stop". I am suggesting a work-up program to approach the threshold of determining on-set of wheel lock-up. Working up gradually as I indicated.

Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: JAYTH1 on November 17, 2012, 08:45:41 pm
      The irony of the fact that this thread started on the same day that I was involved in an accident that abs would  have prevented is somehow fitting. I will go on record here "i practice threshold braking every ride" That said, when that left turning s.o.b. came 'cross my bow I locked the front...I had the presence of mind to release the skid, but man I was still gonna take a ride in his trunk. I countersteered for daylight and reapplied...at 38 degrees that was too much to ask....The front tucked and down I went. I'm positive that the outcome would have been different had brake modulation been removed from the equation. Can I lap faster with it...I don't think so...will it make me a better rider..once again nope..But I gotta tell ya, it woulda helped here. The real world is where i ride and in it abs is a real asset.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Tim S on November 20, 2012, 01:41:19 pm
ABS is great. I have been in the rain several times and the C-10 was worth at least one pucker per ride.....Guess my right hand is the larger problem, but I have always thought that ABS would have made these stops easier or at least with less drama. The Avons, modulating the brakes and maybe a little divine intervention saved my butt a few times. I now have an 09 with ABS which I am happy to have.

None of us are on the race track when we are on the street, and focus is always occasinally lacking.....if you're being 100% honest. Then there are the cagers and critters which are completely different stories. This is where the technology can help. If you are always on game, always focused, always where you need to be, proper speed, approach, you can see animals getting ready to jump out into the road, etc, then you are just plan AWSOME!!! :) That's about all I can say.
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Mcfly on November 22, 2012, 02:05:45 pm
ABS also comes into play when 'unseen' road conditions make threshold braking nearly impossible.
Any change in road condition when putting your bike in an emergency stop will change the dynamics
of how the bike stops.  A patch of wet pavement, or oily spots at intersections will turn your brake into
a skid very quickly.  ABS will react to these changing conditions that you might not see.
Motorcycles have a much smaller contact patch of rubber on the road, and are light, so skidding
is an easier thing to accomplish especially on lighter sport bikes....  ABS can only help prevent that, IMHO.

As far as rider mechanics go, I don't think ABS changes anything.  Brake OR turn still applies...
simultaneously this is still going to hurt.  Owners of bikes equipped with ABS should be familiar
with how the system works and feels, but should still practice existing skill sets taught in MSF classes.

I would not hesitate to own an ABS equipped motorcycle.  Now, if someone would kindly donate one...  ;)
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: MikeP on November 26, 2012, 11:33:26 am
I'm an old guy and been riding 49 years, since i was 11. My frist "bike" was a Honda CT90 trail. The first thing my Grandfather tought me was to control the front brake. "Boy the front brake can mean life or death and one finger is all you need" That has saved my neck and made me a much better motocrosser the my Bud's. My 2012 C14 is my first bike with ABS. I have had a few "Panic" stops with it. But I still only need one finger on the front brake and light rear brake. Never set off the ABS. I know it's there for when i run out of talent. If you lock it up you are out of control. With ABS you still have a chance to avoid the danger. You live and die with the front brake.
If you ride and are affraid of the front brake, sell the bike and get something with four wheels. To learn how to control the front brake by a cheap old dirtbike and learn to corner in dirt while applying the front brake without locking it up. when you learn the feel of what the front wheel is doing and how much pressure it doesn't take you be a better rider. My Late Grandfather garoonteees!
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: gtskev on November 28, 2012, 04:11:28 pm
IMHO the article (and our discussion) dances around one of the most valuable aspects of ABS--the ability to practice panic stops and really get close to the threshold with MUCH less danger of hitting the ground.  I do practice (not every day, but often) and always check my ABS on the gravel in my driveway every time I leave the house.  ABS makes practice a much more efficient process by eliminating most of the opportunity to crash.  I have two ABS bikes, one of which is still the fastest stopping production motorcycle ever made, and have been able to lift the back tire off the ground in an Experienced Rider Course with both of them.  I didn't feel it either time but the instructor verified that it did happen (not by much...).  It is an amazing confidence builder during practice and I recommend it to anyone considering ABS.  Also, the other thing about a good rider beating ABS on dry pavement is that you know the stop is coming.  The stress of an emergency or panic stop affects everyones capabilities--to what degree is incredibly variable, even in the same person--but I firmly believe that practice will improve whatever performance would have been initiated without practice.  So, that's my theory and I'm sticking with it. :nananana:
Title: Re: AMA Article - Myths Busted: Anti-Lock Braking Systems
Post by: Mcfly on November 29, 2012, 03:30:10 am
A patch of wet pavement, or oily spots at intersections will turn your brake into a skid very quickly.

I should add those pesky thick white lines on the road.  Had a real hard brake today, kept
the rear wheel free til I hit the white line going across the road, and the back tire locked.
Fortunately, it was at low speed, I felt it, and compensated... not as fast as ABS would though.

The schmuck in the minivan in front of me (doing 50 mph) decided to make a right turn at the last second...
...no signal... one little left brake light (not the 3 equipped on the thing) and a wee bit of poo
in my shorts.