Author Topic: California MSF training is gone  (Read 5254 times)

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Offline 2linby

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California MSF training is gone
« on: November 27, 2014, 05:36:45 pm »
http://www.soundrider.com/current/1412/GoodbyeMSF.aspx

Nice article from Dave Hough on the next steps for California Motorcycle education.
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Offline jathkajoe

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2014, 07:13:55 pm »
Seems like a good move, and overdue. As a retired teacher and principal if a curriculum produces results opposite of your goal it needs to be reviewed and revised if that's possible, abandoned and replaced if appropriate revisions can't be done.

We need good beginning rider instruction so the new riders are equipped to enjoy and survive to become experienced riders.

Jathkajoe

Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2014, 07:41:42 pm »
If only the same level of training was required to operate car.  If the comparison is being made with European statistics, it seems like having that level of instruction and testing for any motor vehicle license would be a good idea.
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Offline Bergmen

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2014, 04:25:44 pm »
I had my son (21 years old at the time) take the California MSF Basic course when he wanted to buy his first motorcycle. It seemed good in that it taught basic motorcycle functioning (low speed handling, shifting, braking, etc.) on small 250cc bikes. Speeds were slow and little tipovers common but nobody got hurt and initial skills were taught fairly well.

I could not have replicated this (no 250cc bikes at this house) so this was a good first step. Obviously missing were the mind-set and skill-sets necessary for survival. I took over from there and I taught Steven in 3 to 4 two hour sessions at the kitchen table. We then went out to a large empty parking lot and had him practice our techniques. We also made several short local mountain road rides (me leading to show certain techniques then following to watch for compliance). Steven picked these skills up like a duck to water and two years later has two motorcyles and many road trips under his belt.

My Dad trained me in similar fashion but a lot less structured, but my foundational skills came from him. I built on them to teach Steven.

It's all good.

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Offline DGOLD

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2014, 08:35:39 pm »
Having had the Highway Patrol class and a class with Lee Parks  I feel that either way a two day class is inadequate to lead to a licence. Here in California  those under 18 are suppose to have 50 hours behind the wheel. maybe something similar is appropriate.
Comparing statistic with Europe could be misleading for two reasons. First most bikes are much lighter  and with less horsepower and secondly car drivers are more in tune with bikes as they are so much popular. It just takes a day in Italy to see that the scooters are crazy but somehow stay on their rubber better.

Offline Bergmen

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2014, 08:44:20 pm »
Years ago when I lived in Japan it was only easy to get a license to operate small displacement motorcycles, mopeds and scooters. One had to work their way up the ladder in order to get a license to ride bigger, more powerful motorcycles. The criteria was stringent, not all applicants got licenses, one had to prove a significant level of competency. Arduous courses of instruction were required covering several days for each level (licenses were displacement specific in categories).

This was over 50 years ago and I'm sure it is still as complex if not more so.

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Offline BertL

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2014, 03:59:25 am »
Certainly California is a trend setter in many regards.  My guess is that this is only the first step and ultimately we'll have a tiered licensing system modeled after Europe or Japan but watered down to appease the motorcycle industry.

If you recall an actor by the name of Gary Busey dumped his bike, abused his brain on the curb, and the race was on for a California Helmet Law with Busey leading the charge "Urges States to Pass Helmet Law".  In my opinion all that's required is for another celebrity type to do something stupid on a superbike, maim or kill himself or a passenger and the race will be on again with the usual cast of bobble heads standing behind the injured or his coffin nodding in unison.

Having said this, I'm not against the concept of a tiered licensing system.  It would be much more beneficial if we controlled the process as opposed to some political types shoving a draconian system down our throat.

Bert

Offline The Wizard

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2014, 06:42:32 am »
My son and I both took the MSF Riding Course,and my son learned well.I'm not sure about the training questions,tired license works elsewhere but possible it would help if the motorcycle industry was made to stop selling these first time riders these 100 hp+ sport bikes.Maybe tiered motorcycle buying. You can get them trained,but unlike cars they don't give a training permit with specifics about size etc.  The Wizard
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Offline KnoxSwift

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2014, 01:52:32 pm »
I took MSF not in CA but in my previous state of residence. I think it was very good but that was also MANY years ago. So maybe the course has gone down hill since then? I actually took all 3 levels (beginner, moderate, advanced). The Insurance discount was great back then.
I really think maybe the course has changed over many years and probably just needs an update/correction I really thought it was the best thing i've done for my motorcycling.


Offline S Smith

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2014, 03:01:41 pm »
IIRC, even Team Oregon and STAR are one weekend courses.  These programs derived their genesis from the old MSF MRC:RSS.  These courses typically provide around 8 hours of on-cycle and 6-8 hours of classroom.  All the programs all somewhat similar, so what's the difference?  Other states are using the MSF curriculum and seeing improvement in rider statistics.  Maybe it is not the curriculum as much as the administration of the program. Maybe the emphasis when training is run by private contractors (rather than state run) is more about the $$ than training. 

As Dan pointed out, these beginner courses only provide basic physical and mental skills. The kinds you would need to prove with a basic DMV knowledge and riding test.  It then falls upon the rider to practice and hone those skills before putting themselves into a situation that is beyond their ability.

 
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Offline 2linby

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2014, 09:47:57 pm »
Maybe it is not the curriculum as much as the administration of the program. Maybe the emphasis when training is run by private contractors (rather than state run) is more about the $$ than training. 

Based on the article I suspect this is the case. If CHP was not happy with the program based on the statistical data then they have every right to change things up. The fact that MSF did not pursue renewal may also tell you something. Lee Parks is a solid organization and Stacy Axmaker from the Idaho Star Program is a solid administrator who will see this program through and I hope for the sake of the new riders in California they find great success.
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Offline Skiee

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2014, 02:42:47 am »
If only the same level of training was required to operate car.  If the comparison is being made with European statistics, it seems like having that level of instruction and testing for any motor vehicle license would be a good idea.
Absolutely agree!!
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Offline S Smith

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2014, 11:11:44 am »
Lee Parks is a solid organization and Stacy Axmaker from the Idaho Star Program is a solid administrator who will see this program through and I hope for the sake of the new riders in California they find great success.

+1

I was fortunate to meet and chat with Ax a few years ago when he conducted a breakout session at our update.  He presented to our instructor pool the same presentation he gave that year at SMSA conference.  He will be an tremendous asset to get CHP MSP on track.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 05:18:15 pm by S Smith »
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Offline TLR

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 05:16:24 am »
The Idaho STAR courses are outstanding, but, as Steve said, they are weekend courses, improved from MSF and even improved from Oregon's courses--which I understand won an award or two.   The curriculum is, I was told, only slightly different, but in several critical areas.  That is, Oregon folks didn't agree with some of the MSF techniques, and Idaho didn't either, and each state created improved curriculums.

The courses are definitely NOTHING like the training riders must have in the U.K. and other countries.

The thing that makes Idaho's STAR courses so good, relatively speaking, imho, is the commitment of the instructors.  On courses I've take the instructors have been uniformly excellent.  Some are LEO's, some are just experienced and enthusiastic veteran riders, well trained to be instructors.  I don't know how the program is financed or whether the instructors are volunteers or get paid something, but the cost is very reasonable, so I bet they don't get paid enough.  Local motorcycle dealers donate the bikes and helmets.  The state of Idaho is behind it, at least in some fashion;  gives it good support, I'm told.  The local courses are given at a local high school, in a classroom near the back door that leads to the parking lot, where the course markings are painted.  Low-budget operation, using only resources that are available.

Not sure if all this goodness and common sense can be translated to the People's Republic of California, with its politics, unions, litigious environment, high costs of living, dangerous neighborhoods, etc.  But it sure works great in Idaho.

Will be most interested to see if our Idaho STAR guy can duplicate the thing in California.

Another thing the STAR folks do is track motorcycle accidents.  They coordinate with law enforcement to get better data regarding motorcycle accidents and they track the statistics carefully. 

I'd like to meet Stacy Axmaker some day;  heard all good things.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 05:21:19 am by TLR »
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Offline JB

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2015, 09:29:54 pm »
So who is responsible for all of the motorcyclists that didn't die under MSF instruction?

I could go on for days about this.
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Offline TLR

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2015, 12:52:58 am »
There is an article with some news about the new California program. 

My issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (MCN) arrived today and had this article in it.  Then, an email arrived with access to the digital version.

I copied the link, so I hope it works for you, if you don't have a subscription.  MCN, if I could add, is an outstanding motorcycle magazine, in my opinion.  It is 100% funded by subscription and contains no advertising.  Every month, it's a must-read for me, asap after it arrives.

http://www.motorcycleconsumernews-digitalmagazine.com/mcnews/april_2015d/?sub_id=kZRIUesxiBtm#pg24

Hope you can read the article.  It has lots of good info, about how it happened, who is creating the program, what the objectives are.  If you can't open it, basic news is the company, Total Control Training, Inc., has been training about 600 instructors and creating 130 training sites, and all should be up and running by April.  They've actually been training students since January 16.

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Offline cra-z1000

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2015, 01:14:40 am »
My son and I both took the MSF Riding Course,and my son learned well.I'm not sure about the training questions,tired license works elsewhere but possible it would help if the motorcycle industry was made to stop selling these first time riders these 100 hp+ sport bikes.Maybe tiered motorcycle buying. You can get them trained,but unlike cars they don't give a training permit with specifics about size etc.  The Wizard

Very true , classes are given with small 250's and then the new riders , young and old go out and get the biggest and baddest thing they can afford .
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Offline Ranger Jim

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2015, 01:59:08 am »
That's right Jason. Just like any 18 year old can go out and buy whatever hyper-performance car they can get financed for! Geez! California finally does something sensible and they get NO kudos for it. The MSF i(and has been all along) the MOTORCYCLE  SALES FOUNDATION. They couldn't care less about safety. FOLLOW THE MONEY!

FYIW: I've been a MSF certified RiderCoach for 10 years and have conducted over 200 classes.
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Offline gottaride

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2015, 02:07:34 am »
Why it's just unamurican. I`m gonna call up me congressman and give him a piece of my mind. My freedum is a stake here. BLAH blah.

Just kidding guys.

I grewup riding in the Province of Quebec where graduated motorcycle licences were the norm but that was then..now dunno. 250, 400. 750 etc. Good for Cali for doing the wise thing and being proactive.

Now that i`m in Alberta of course i can buy a 'Busa as a newbie and have at 'er. :-[ Money makes the world go 'round but it shouldn't.

Offline DGOLD

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2015, 02:05:46 pm »
I had taken the MSF course in California in2000, one son in 2001 another son in 2005, my wife and two daughters together in 2009.
It felt to me that after hearing everyone's reports on the class that less and less was being expected each time. Maybe it was just too easy to keep their certification and franchise and they became progressively more lazy.

Offline LessPaul

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Re: California MSF training is gone
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2015, 03:36:32 pm »
Nothing to do with Cali, but I just signed up yesterday for an "Advanced Rider" course thru our local community college. The public version of the Military Sport Bike Rider Course.

It's an all-day sucker. 7:45am to 4:30pm.  All of $25.

Looking forward to it!
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