Author Topic: Car tires on motorcycles  (Read 29431 times)

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Offline Brett0769

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« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2009, 05:02:00 pm »
Do I have to pick just one?  
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Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2009, 12:37:00 am »
        1)  Your statement about the different handling characteristics among the tires really underscores the problem.]Text     2) Inexperienced riders trying out the 'dark side' in an attempt to emulate the guys they see doing things like that are going to have crashes and get hurt. ]Text       I don't make a point to argue each post but wanted to make clear:     Often we argue with part of a sentence while ignoring the complete and result in the original context being over looked.   I say again similarly: I have used several motorcycle tires that had handling characteristics that were different from each other just like car tires do (in comparison to other car tires). Also have said prior that the ct differs to the mc tire in handling as in initiating the lean. Not sinister, different.     Because one or more individuals or organizations who have never tested the ct on a mc sez... doesn't make it more than a theory. That is why we have beta testers. Not my original idea of using a ct but made it my desire to try it.   I need to repeat again. Better traction in all conditions and attitudes which IMO is a positive factor in safety.     A rider using a rear ct for the first time will ride the bike as if riding a mc that is different compared to their existing ride. Any difference in handling characteristics is easily overcome with basic riding skills. Just as when I ride an unfamiliar bike I take it easy to learn the bike.   We have read that some have used this tire concept for at least 10 years on two wheels. No reports of crashes have been attributed to using a ct. More than one report believes it is a safer tire and less prone to puncture based on his mileage use in harsh environment like multiple trips to/from Alaska. The long wear may also be considered to be a safety factor also as less time on a worn out tire.   Emulating other riders happens all the time. Some get hurt when their attempts exceed their ability/experience.   No motorcycle tire or car tire is exempt from failure. No mc rider is exempt from making an error in riding. There are no guarantees in life. I think that is part of the excitement of riding a mc.   Economics is very important to most riders. C10 riders tend to have a rep of the bang for a buck anyway. A tire that costs 1/2 and lasts 2 1/2 times longer, and most important provides more traction in all conditions and attitudes than a mc are the reasons I use them. Economics does not exceed my desire to be safe. Riding since 1960, if I had a death wish I would have expired by now.    Liability, tort and that more $ is made on the sale of a car tire are the reasons you will likely never see any corporation(s) endorse the use of a ct on a C10. Even worse many will not install a tire one size larger or smaller than the OEM designation which is why I was changing tires in the 90 f heat in Montrose COG Nat'l motel parking lot and I was not a happy camper. The parts man was apologetic but it was store policy.   I have heard many of the opinions against using a mc tire Not one of those have used the mod. I don't WANT then to. There is at least one other C10 rider using the 16" ct. A few others have stated they want to try it. I don't mind when many say they will never try it. We don't all have the same mods om our mc's nor do we want them all.   Thankfully the expression of mc modding is not censured. Many have tried.     Ride often and safe.  

Offline RP3_ Vancouver USA

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« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2009, 03:57:00 am »
Hey Dan, This is Ross from Vancouver. I just bought a   ZL1000 wheel from ebay. When it arrives I'll inspect it   and likely will be mounting up a Federal for the daily   trip Vancouver to Longview. I'm sure it states   elsewhere, but what do you like for the front as a   match?    BTW and for the record --I've been looking into this   for many moons and want all the naysayers here to   realize I am a total information geek who once   calculated exactly how many revolutions my tires (and   engine for that matter) would make on a trip to visit   my grandma in Reno. As a schoolteacher, father of 12 (5   mine and 7 hers), and grandpa for 7 I am not in any way   interested in compromising my safety or setting a bad   example. However, I do believe  10-12k from a $150-$200   tire is just unreasonable - especially for a 700lb bike   that never gets ridden like it was an R1.  
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 06:40:00 am by Ross_Pickering_WA »

Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2009, 03:49:00 am »
  Ross,   I have been using new old stock Michelin 89X 110R80-18 tires but are no longer available and boo hoo I only have one left in the shed. I really like these but a 120 may work better with the wider CT.   So I am not the one to suggest what you should use.     PS: I sent a prior PM to Ross that onlinetires.com had the best price.  

Offline Brett0769

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« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2009, 05:58:00 pm »
You guys need to read the pdf I posted from Bridgestone. At 30 degree lean a car tire is riding on less than half the contact area that it is when not leaning and it is riding on the sidewall. Claims of better handling are entirely subjective and not evidence of anything except the way you feel when you're riding on this tire, a subject about which you are clearly biased.    Objectively, as demonstrated by the tire prints in the pdf made at various lean angles; in a 30 degree lean, you have half the contact area with the road the tire is designed to provide (since it was designed for no more than 5 degree lean) and a good portion of that contact with the road is via a 1/4" thick piece of sidewall designed never to contact the road.     Initially, there was only one type of pneumatic tire. The differences between motorcycle and car tires were not arrived at by chance. They are the result of a century of engineering and testing in real world conditions.     What this is discounting is the experience and intentions of generations before you who were just as dedicated to riding as you are and who were persistently pursuing a safer, better performing tire for motorcycles. There are important performance and safety reasons for the differences in the tires. Your preferences and experiences, and those of others, with going against them, doesn't in the least bit invalidate them as facts. Car tires are not designed to lean more than 5 degrees and it is unsafe to use them in that way. The chance of failure when riding a 600+lb motorcycle at a 30 degree lean on the sidewall of a car tire is much, much higher than it is on that same motorcycle with a tire with rounded tread that maintains a consistent contact patch with the road.     If you flip a coin 999 times and it comes up heads every time, the chance of it coming up heads on the 1000th toss is still 50/50.      
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Offline Branded

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« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2009, 07:34:00 pm »
You know you can always find someone to support which ever side you happen to be on. The bottom line is if you don't want to run a CT then don't. But if you are trying to convince others you are probably wasting your time. The guys I ride with that run CT's say they will never go back to MC tires. I don't care one way or the other, it's a personal choice. After all I have read and heard from Dan and my riding buddies, I believe that I will try one on my connie. Again it is a personal choice. I do know this, there is more danger from all the other folks on the road than from running a CT. JMO  
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Offline Zorlac

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« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2009, 09:33:00 pm »
"But if you are trying to convince others you are probably wasting your time."    And therein lies the embodiment of live & let live that's just lost on Brett.  
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Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2009, 12:50:00 am »
 Those that can't handle the truth (concepts) will try any negative possible, like killing grandma if I ride a mc.   Truth is the ct tire has WAY MORE tread on the ground when vertical than a mc tire, AND thus more tread contact when leaned over. It is a fact and just as noticeable when riding.   Better traction in all conditions and attitudes on my C10.   Better traction in all conditions and attitudes on my C10.   Better traction in all conditions and attitudes on my C10.   Ever notice how much of the mc tread is not in contact in all attitudes, vertical and leaned?   Read it and weep.   The more the concept is attacked the more it is read the more the truth that it can be a superior and safer product stands out. For the rider that decides it to be. There will be some that try it and decide it is not their choice to continue. Choice. Don't need anybody's permission.   I sometimes meet those that scratch their heads that I ride a C10 engineered before cad-cam or whatever is current in modern mfg the 25 years after the first Conk model. They don't get it either and underestimate the product. You ride the 'old Concours'?   Seems to be rare that those who that try a mc tire go back to a mc tire on the rear.   It works for me on a C10. All others and on other bikes have to decide for themselves. Unlike the tire companies and shops I don't charge $150 per tire and $75 per install. Follow the money and connect the dots to industry statements.   Thanks for playing and keeping the thread alive. :)  

Offline tom_epp_NC

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« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2009, 02:16:00 am »
dan, i want to sincerely thank you for all the trials and tribulations with the ct on connie. i really enjoy reading this thread. i think i'm being dragged (or is it drug?) to the dark side...lol...  you wrote    Seems to be rare that those who that try a mc tire go back to a mc tire on the rear.    i'm guessin you meant those that try the ct rarely go back to the mc.  that was one thing i was wondering, does anybody go back?  i've got a new set of 205's with about 3k on them so i'm hoping i'm good for a little while. so far so good with them but i was really disappointed with how few selection of "stock tires" there are for this bike. i felt like i was looking for tires for my 82gs850g.  i think i read on here some where that you have better traction in all conditions and attitudes on your c10. my other question would be what's it like maneuvering at parking lot speed? is it much more stable? i'm on an 04 without a fork brace(on order from murph, he was out of stock:( ) and the front end can be pretty shaky at times. i don't think i'm ready to go out and buy another rim and get a tire and try it but if someone had one that they were willing to let me try on my bike or let me try theirs for five or ten miles, i can't say i wouldn't be interested.    thanks again, tom :)  

Offline RP3_ Vancouver USA

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« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2009, 04:30:00 am »
According to my statistics professor in college if you indeed flipped a coin 999 times and it came up heads, the chance of getting heads again is 999/1000; a final toss of tails would be considered an outlier and would be discarded in any scientific investigation; the coin you are flipping is flawed!    Bring on the darkside! If we lived in fear of new ideas and failed to examine the possibilities of others' notions, we would all be walking to our respective destinations, scared to get on the back of a four legged beast, let alone straddle a beast that can cover more that 60 meters (about 200 feet) per second .    

Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2009, 01:07:00 am »
 Yes Tom,    I'm guessin you meant those that try the ct rarely go back to the mc.  that was one thing i was wondering, does anybody go back?    thanks again, tom      I typed that twice and still got it wrong!   I personally have heard of two riders that tried the CT and went back to a MC tire.  

Offline RP3_ Vancouver USA

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« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2009, 06:34:00 am »
Online tires has the Federal on backorder. They called me today and wanted me to take a Nexxen. I have checked out the Nexxen at tire store and told them I'd wait.    I have the new wheel bearings in the Eliminator wheel and the Bridgestone 709 for the front has arrived. Now considering tackling the mount/dismount myself vs. $25 at local Bent Lever.    

Offline Grizzly

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« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2009, 09:02:00 pm »
quote:    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------  There is a thread on FJRforum.com (I own a FJR)where some owners are claiming they are successfully using Auto tires on their bike. I suggested this was not safe and that someone saying it's OK because they did it, implicitly recoomending it to others, was specious and irresponsible. For which I was generally shat upon.     Does anyone know of a credible source for actual information on why we need motorcycle specific tires and the safety of using auto tires?     Dave Clancy #5452   Hamilton ON     ----------------------------------------------------    I think that this might be helpful.  http://mc.bridgestone.co.jp/pdf/mcintroe.pdf      
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 11:02:00 pm by Grizzly »
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Offline Grizzly

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« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2009, 09:25:00 pm »
Oops, Didn't notice that it was already posted on here. How'd I miss that? I find the thought of the CT interesting but think the info on that link should be taken into consideration.    I've seen a video of a guy on CT's and it seemed to work fine, but he was on a cruiser. I don't Race my bike around scraping my knee in the corners but I wonder if my Connie'd still end up on the sidewall.     If I was the kinda guy that loved cruisers and didn't mind scraping my feet at slight angles, I'm pretty sure I'd be on CT's.  
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Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2009, 01:52:00 am »
I admit I did not read the entire Bridgestone article or even most.   But, I did notice that the images of tread contact, ct v/s mc, that the car tire appeared to have more contact area at all attitudes, vertical and lean angles. That agrees with the my riding experience. Another point stated is that the two tires are mostly the same construction other than the bead area stiffness extending further into the sidewall on the mc and of course the across tread radius. I can feel that difference in sidewall stiffness. There is a ct sidewall shift but also have found that it is not the same amount/rate on all c/t's. That is why my choice so far is the Federal tire where the shift is much less noticeable.   I wonder if the slide rule guys who wrote the article had ever tried a ct on a mc to back up their article? Ha ha, sincerely doubt that but again did not read it in entirety. How was the article based upon? Likely included what they thought they knew on the subject. Fair And Balanced report? I on the other side of the river have my suspicions.   Like most I pulled from the article what I wanted to? Human nature when supporting any position. Very difficult to be neutral.   Now hearing that the rear Pilot GT's mc tires are being phased out. Hard being a rear 16" these days.   Dan      
« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 03:54:00 am by danodemotoman »

Offline Brett0769

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« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2009, 07:29:00 pm »
The article is just science. Measured results of a test, results that are reproducable in test after test regardless of the opinions of the tester.     The pictures of tire marks show two things seemingly plain to me, though I accept that others could see it differently. 1) the car tire's contact patch varies based on lean where the motorcycle tire's contact remains approximately the same. Little variance in the amount of contact with the road for the mt, big variance for the ct. 2) at 30+ degrees, the car tire is riding on the sidewall. Half of the contact patch at 40 degrees is sidewall, ~1/4" thick.     The conclusion I draw is that that variance between the amount of tire touching the road through my lean would be unpredictable and dangerous and having a 1/4" section of rubber between me and the abrasive road surface increase the chance of the tire failing as opposed to having the tread in contact with the road. Those are my opinions and reasonable ones I think. The variance in contact patch and riding on sidewall are not opinion though, they are fact; they are clearly what happened in the tracks presented in the article.     I understand what you believe about these tires and that your belief is very firm and I affirm that you are 100% entitled to your belief. But that belief is depriving you of a critical eye. It is causing you to dismiss facts that could benefit you in preference to your beliefs. You went so far as to try to refute the article, admittedly w/o having even read what was in it, because you are so entrenched in your belief.    Bridgestone has no dog in the fight. They're going to sell a tire of one sort or the other. They state facts and observations in the article, unconvoluted by opinion or belief, in pursuit of a tire that is demonstrably superior in a particular application to the products of their competition. One area very important to demonstrating superiority, is safety.         Ross, the chance of getting heads when flipping a coin is 1 in 2 and it never changes regardless of how many times or coins you flip. Send your old Stats prof an e-mail, he'll confirm it for you. Statistical analysis of a dataset would provide for exclusion of anomalies, but it won't alter the chance of an individual result. The theory is that if you have anomalous data, it will eventually come back to the norm if the set is large enough. Alternately, I'll be more than happy to put up an even bet of one dollar against your thousand if you want to bet on the results of the next toss of a coin that's come up heads 999 times in a row. ;)      
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Offline RP3_ Vancouver USA

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« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2009, 02:50:00 am »
I think you have your notion of a wager backwards.   :confuse:  However, this scenario was specifically used as the   basis for a discussion on the difference between theory   and reality by said professor. My point was more   directly that in the aforementioned scenario the coin   is surely flawed and therefore the 999/1000 analogy is   speculatively theoretical.     BTW - This thread is fun! I wonder if we could have as   much fun debating investment strategy, politics, or   "kids these days."   I really like political cartoons. We surely have great   fodder for the artists these days. I hope our children   aren't simply told what tires they will be allowed to   use on their motorcycles - assuming, of course, that we   haven't all been legislated into cars in the   (stated/supposed) interest of our own safety.  
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 04:51:00 am by RP3_ Vancouver USA »

Offline Zorlac

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« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2009, 09:43:00 am »
There's really not much debate in investment strategy, just show me the money over the last 10yrs.  Sorta like this vs. this   And the best tire is the one you don't crash on.  :p      
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:42:00 pm by Zorlac »
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Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2009, 01:27:00 pm »
 No.No.     (1) No one using a car tire has reported any experience or tire condition of riding on the side wall.   ct's used on a mc do not use the sidewall for cornering. Repeat, repeat, repeat.   Oooooohhhhmmmmmm. :)   Could it be possible? Not on a Concours IMO. It does not happen even when I go into my 'sport mode'. The 'tits' on the side wall of my ct tire are still there after the tire is worn. there is no abrasion from contact of the road surface on the sidewall.   The tread that does wrap around shows little or no tread abrasion at the edges. Tread wrap is not a sidewall feature on a ct. What little tread that does wrap is tread. On a mc, yes more of the sidewall is tread and is designed for that including the more stiff sidewall construction. Keep in mind that most and all the ct's I have used do not have a flat tread radius. The image of a tire radius that is 'flat' reminds me of the bias tires of my youth. The modern radial is not your grandfathers car tire!   I would have to have the bike nearly laying on it's side for contact of sidewall to road surface.     2) RE: Bridgestone article photos: regardless of the variance in the amount of ct tread contact when vertical or leaned there is more road contact that a mc. Which is why  'I' say 'more traction in all conditions and attitudes'.   Statements to the contrary are not reality much less science.   My riding experience is not classroom. My Dad would say 'school of life'. We say 'Ride to live, live to ride.... and live the tell about it'.     3) When a tire thread comes up about recommendations I do not insert the ct choice I have made. uh , maybe once but that is not where i want to put my .02 and respectfully understand that is not what the poster is asking.     Stating my experience is not necessarily promoting it. Take what you want from it or not. I will stand my ground tho based on my experience.   In my experience those who argue against the use should really read the reports of those using them as most if not all the concerns will be addressed. That will not convert but at least maybe less repetition of inaccurate statements/opinions in contrast to actual use.    

Offline Brett0769

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« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2009, 01:42:00 pm »
Quote
(1) No one using a car tire has reported any experience or tire condition of riding on the side wall. ct's used on a mc do not use the sidewall for cornering. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
   That's not what I'm seeing here.        If the car tires don't touch sidewall in curves what happens? Do the sidewalls flex and collapse, distorting whenever you lean? Do the tires remain rigid so that you go up on the corner of the tread and have a 1/2" wide contact patch? Explain to me how your reality differs from these tire prints. I really don't understand.    
Quote
Bridgestone article photos: regardless of the variance in the amount of ct tread contact when vertical or leaned there is more road contact that a mc. Which is why  'I' say 'more traction in all conditions and attitudes'. Statements to the contrary are not reality much less science.
   Excellent argument for proving the world flat. I can see flat ground to the horizon in all directions and have for all my life. There are mountains rising from it, oceans embedded in it and I've traveled thousands of miles and while I've never reached the edge, I've always had to turn around to get back to where I started. Statements to the contrary are not reality, much less science.     (You can hit me for that when we meet at a rally and you figure out I'm the guy who said it. But not in the face.)    
Quote
BTW - This thread is fun! I wonder if we could have as   much fun debating investment strategy, politics, or   "kids these days."
'    No, politics or religion, both are forbidden subjects because of the vicious breakdown that occurred on the concours.org forum. They're trying to stay away from that sort of vitriol here and I agree. A group of people arguing over the mechanics of car tires can get heated, as it has here, but it's hard to take it too personally. Arguing politics or religion are arguing your core beliefs, that's very, very personal and the majority of people will not flex an iota, only scream louder and hit lower. Finances are like car tires, 'Kids these day', I doubt you'll find anyone to disagree with. :)    The 999/1000 example would be found within a large enough set. I'm not saying I've done it or seen it, but it would occur with a normal coin flipped enough times. The chance of the next toss landing heads though remains 50/50. In an ideal world, with no chaos, the coin would flip heads, then tails, then heads again infinitely. But unaccounted for variables, the wind, the force of the toss, the curvature of the thumb nail, etc. create variation. Flipping the coin enough times will bear out the 1:1 ratio, but within the set you'll find bizarre anomalies like the 999/1000.        
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Offline danodemotoman

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« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2009, 10:28:00 pm »
Those not having experienced running a CT are often repeating outdated assumptions.   Reading the FAQ's in the dark side and other web posts will see the user's real world experience on multiple machines.   Photo interpretation of the foot print is subjective and may be influenced by what one wants to see.   No one runs on the sidewall withe the ct's.      
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 12:28:00 am by danodemotoman »

Offline oldsawfiler

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« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2009, 11:58:00 pm »
Wow, Dan, 8 pages in this thread now.  Looking at the "Rorschach" prints that were posted it looks like they just took a car tire and rolled it up on edge to show the side wall print. If they had mounted it on a m/c rim with the weight of a bike and rider it would probably look a lot different.  Just mounting a c/t on a m/c rim would round the tread.  I doubt that I will ever run one myself, But I know it works well for you.    COG # 8062  AMA # 1084053  ROMA or Scarlet harlot acording to my wife
Well...even if you fall on your face you're still moving forward.

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Offline oldsawfiler

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Car tires on motorcycles
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2009, 12:08:00 am »
sorry about the double post  
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 04:26:00 am by sawfiler »
Well...even if you fall on your face you're still moving forward.

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Offline danodemotoman

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Car tires on motorcycles
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2009, 10:36:00 pm »
 Kinda like the birthers rejection?   The evidence is right there under me! LOL  

Offline Bigjimbo

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Car tires on motorcycles
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2010, 01:10:00 pm »
I have one question....has any motorcycle tire manufacturer engineer approved this?  It would seem to me that they would have authoritative say on this matter.  I can't see how a car tire, designed to run on a flat tread pattern, can be stong enough in the sidewall to sustain lateral load.  
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