Author Topic: Straightening curved roads  (Read 3640 times)

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Offline 2linby

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Straightening curved roads
« on: September 22, 2008, 11:00:00 pm »
No I am not talking about new road construction to "fix" curved roads!    What I am talking about is do you follow the path of the road or do you try to straighten it out with a more direct path of travel?  AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks!  Northwest Area Director  COG #5539  AMA #927779  IBA #15034  TEAM OREGON MC Instructor    http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby  http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip)  http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)
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Offline Greg Habel

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2008, 07:53:00 am »
I use the "delayed apex" method in turns.  Gives better visibility before and into the turn.  There's a harder "cut" near the apex but it has shown me how much more I can lean if needed.  At that time you have lots of room in the lane. I do suspect though that the delayed apex method may eat more rubber.  Always amazes me when I watch motorcycle racing and how many different "lines" there are to a corner.  Good question.  Greg H from Mass, Connie Droppers Anonymous Awards Dude  COG# 7010,a Tracey  CDA 120  99 Connie "Herrin Christabelle", 05 Ninja 250  
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Offline Yuma

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2008, 09:40:00 am »
For me it depends on how well I can see through the curves.  If on flat open areas I may strighten the road a little but if I'm in hills/trees or blind curves I'm with habelsgtb on the delayed apex....        Yuma,  Summer in Yuma is not hell, but hell is a local call :-)  2006 Connie http://community.webshots.com/user/Lateck?vhost=community
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Offline oldsawfiler

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2008, 10:36:00 am »
Please explain "delayed apex".  Are you entering a rh curve near centrer line, then cutting close to the shoulder, and exiting near the center line again?  Not familiar with the term.    1990 Aint she a pretty Tomato (the bike ofcourse)  wedshots albums   http://community.webshots.com/user/sawfiler64/albums/most-recent
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Offline Greg Habel

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 11:34:00 am »
Here's a good article by David Hough.  Has pictures as well.  http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/RS-cc2.htm   Greg H from Mass, Connie Droppers Anonymous Awards Dude  COG# 7010,a Tracey  CDA 120  99 Connie "Herrin Christabelle", 05 Ninja 250  
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Offline ZGirl

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2008, 01:59:00 pm »
Greg,  Good article.  Thanks for posting it.  
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Offline shawmutt

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2008, 05:26:00 pm »
Holy crap, and I thought counter-steering was a hard concept!    Thanks for the article!    As far as me, I just hopped on a bike and rode it around.  My first rally was an exercise in luck.  Hell, I just figured out to start corners from the outside a month ago :blush:      
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 05:28:00 pm by shawmutt »
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Offline 2linby

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2008, 08:54:00 pm »
Holy crap, and I thought counter-steering was a hard concept!     Thanks for the article!     As far as me, I just hopped on a bike and rode it around.  My first rally was an exercise in luck.  Hell, I just figured out to start corners from the outside a month ago.      There is a lot you can do to help yourself to become a better and safer rider. Dave Hough's Proficient motorcycling books are a very good start and I would strong recommend taking a MC class as soon as you can work one into your schedule.    AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks!  Northwest Area Director  COG #5539  AMA #927779  IBA #15034  TEAM OREGON MC Instructor    http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby  http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip)  http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)
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Offline shawmutt

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 07:29:00 pm »
I did the BRC, and will probably do the ERC this coming summer, unfortunately funds and time are at a premium, so the race course will have to wait  :p  
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Offline S Smith

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 11:41:00 pm »
Before delayed apex can be applied and mastered, riders must understand and be able to executed basic cornering skills, including...  * Attain proper entry speed  * Use outside-inside-outside path of travel  * Look through to exit of turn  * Maintain steady or slightly increasing speed through entire turn (no decel in turn)      --  Steve Smith, #3184  COG Northeast Area Director  (somewhere in south central CT)     If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
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Offline Brett0769

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2008, 04:02:00 pm »
I had a roommate in college who was very into autocross. He raced a VW Golf and a Scirocco. I learned a lot about driving from him without even getting into too much trouble. :) My '73 Nova wasn't the definition of grace by any means, but she could certainly burn her tires off without much effort. That doesn't do you much good when you fly off the road though.     The principles of the road are fixed though the abilities of the vehicles are very different when comparing motorcycles to cars and cars to cars. Your objective when going through curves should be to find the path that provides the lowest, constant level of centrifugal force so that there are no sudden changes to lateral force while you're in a state of reduced traction that would cause a loss of control. That's the outside-inside-outside path, or 'straightening the curve'.     Rearwheel drive cars tend to oversteer, so when taking a curve improperly or at too high a speed, the rear end will lose traction first and slide to the outside. At extremes, the rear end will come completely around and the car will be traveling backwards. This can be corrected by counter-steering at the apex, causing the car to regain traction in the rear and making the car appear to 'drift' or go through the curve sideways.     Frontwheel drive cars tend to understeer, in the same situation the front end will simply slide, taking the car on a path toward the outside of the curve or, at extremes, completely off the road.     Motorcycles are rear wheel drive vehicles which means they tend toward oversteering BUT when they lose traction in the rear, once they regain that traction, if the rear wheel is not inline with the front wheel they tend to flip the vehicle causing a high-side fall. This is very bad. If you lock your rear wheel and it comes out of line with the front wheel, leave it locked until you've come to a complete stop.     When they lose traction in the front they lose control almost instantly, go down and slide on their sides which is a low-side fall. This is also bad but not as bad for the rider as is the catapult affect of the high-side fall.    Braking requires at least a portion of available traction, so braking in a curve is ill-advised. If you're traveling too quickly for an upcoming curve, you always want to brake before you enter the curve while your steering is neutral (both wheels inline with one another). This allows the maximum traction possible while braking. Accelerating slightly through the curve will increase downforce on the bike and improve your traction, so accelerating slightly through the curve is the best course of action on bikes and in cars.     I should note that I briefly had a 1990 Eagle Talon Turbo w/AWD, 4 cylinder engine producing 195hp. In cases where it began to lose traction, the means of correcting it was dropping it down a gear and kicking it in the a**. Having four drive wheels on the ground makes for fun driving to be sure. :)      
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 04:13:00 pm by Brett0769 »
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Offline Lake Cle Elum

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2008, 11:32:00 am »
I should not admit this, as it is neither smart or legal. BUT, I spent 6 years roadracing and used to ride with some really fast guys in the Calif Mountains every year when I went down to visit my old college room-mate.    I only do this on rare occassions: On a tight twisty road with little traffic, I've been known to cross the centerline on approach to a blind, righthand curve. The advantages are, it gives a lot more time to see what lies ahead and makes it a much wider turn; meaning you get thru it faster.    The negatives are,(like I said), it's not smart or legal. I know 2Linby is going to yell at me as it goes against all of his m/c trainer theories, BUT I was an MSF instructor back in the late 1970's.....      
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 11:33:00 am by Lake Cle Elum »
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Offline Brett0769

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2008, 04:03:00 pm »
There's a George Carlin joke that covers the problems with this thinking.     A young man was riding with his buddy in Los Angeles. They came up to a stoplight that was yellow and turned red right before they reached the white line. His buddy stomped on the gas and zipped through the intersection. The young man was terrified. "What are you doing man!?!". "Don't worry man, my brother does it all the time." the buddy said smoothly.     The next light turned yellow as they approached and the buddy floored it again. "Woah!" the young man said. "You're going to get us killed!". "Naah," the buddy replied, "Like I said, my brother does it all the time.".     As they approached the next light, which was red, the buddy sped up to zip through it but it suddenly turned green. The buddy stomped on the brakes and came screeching to a halt at the white line. After he recovered, the young man looked at him and said, "What the hell are you doing? The light's green!". "Yeah, I know." replied his buddy, "but my brother might be coming the other way.".  
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Offline 2linby

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2008, 09:06:00 pm »
I only do this on rare occassions: On a tight twisty road with little traffic, I've been known to cross the centerline on approach to a blind, righthand curve. The advantages are, it gives a lot more time to see what lies ahead and makes it a much wider turn; meaning you get thru it faster.     The negatives are,(like I said), it's not smart or legal. I know 2Linby is going to yell at me as it goes against all of his m/c trainer theories, BUT I was an MSF instructor back in the late 1970's.....  <i/>    Nothing wrong with using all the open available road, as given the circumstances of being safe or sorry I'd chose the side of safe. And talking to a Cop or a Judge is arguably preferred to talking to an emergency room doctor, or them talking to my next of kin!  AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks!  Northwest Area Director  COG #5539  AMA #927779  IBA #15034  TEAM OREGON MC Instructor    http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby  http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip)  http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)
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Offline Terrynyc

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Straightening curved roads
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2008, 03:57:00 pm »
Steve's last point is truly an epiphany.  It goes against common sense but it helps immeasurably.  The bike actually becomes more stable with light throttle.  Its one of Keith Code's major teaching points, throttle control.  Terry Faherty   COG #792  AMA #526406  NYC Metro AAD and chief bottle washer  Bikes may change but a COGer forever!
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