Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Motorcycle Talk => Motorcycle Safety => Topic started by: S Smith on December 04, 2010, 04:14:14 am

Title: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: S Smith on December 04, 2010, 04:14:14 am
Some recent studies have shown that as the average age of motorcyclists has increased, so has the number of rider mishaps.  This fact sheet from MSF may help enlighten and inform the seasoned riders on the forum.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: danodemotoman on December 04, 2010, 06:50:35 am
 From what I read the title is misleading.
 'Should be 'Older Riders'?
 Seasoned' makes me think of experience.
 Thinking now about seasoned curly fries.  :D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: WillyP on December 06, 2010, 12:45:08 pm
That's 'Political Correctness' for ya... I'll take mine with a little vinegar and some freshly ground black pepper!


Or, maybe they want to differentiate from riders who are older, but new to riding?
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Rev Ryder on December 06, 2010, 02:58:13 pm
Nope., they're just talking about our aging population.  Years in the saddle aren't taken into account.  There are a lot of reasons for the increase in deaths that are most likely simply tied to our getting older as a people (United States).  In 1980 when the average age was 24, the majority of the people on the road were closer to 24 and hence better suited to the task of operating a motor vehicle.  Today, the average biker is 41 and the average age of all motorists is likewise up.  Add to the mix that older folks (yeah, we geriatric bikers too) are more likely to die from the same injury that a 24 year old might survive and you can automatically see the primary reason for this polls results.  Toss into the mix cell phones, more crowded roadways, etc. that have occurred since 1980 and you get even more of the picture.  It's just plain dangerous out there ffolks and we're not getting younger.  If we WANT to get older (stay alive) then we have to be better than we've ever been... despite the fact that our reflexes, our judgement, our physical abilities, and our ability to take a hit are not what they once were.

And yeah, Willy's right, they're just trying to euphemize the language and not call us "Old Farts" that they used the "nice" term, "seasoned".  Now about those fries... this Old Fart's gettin' hungry.   >:D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: smithr1 on December 06, 2010, 04:31:21 pm
I knew I didn't feel as safe on the road for some reason.  I just figured it was because I was surrounded by dumb asses.
Mmmm fries.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: COGnosticator on December 06, 2010, 06:40:18 pm
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Cap'n Bob on December 06, 2010, 07:24:20 pm
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D

I would never purposely break the law!  :))
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: COGnosticator on December 06, 2010, 09:53:16 pm
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D

I would never purposely break the law!  :))

I don't do it on purpose, it is a case of forgetfulness............ >:D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Brady on December 06, 2010, 09:59:23 pm
I knew I didn't feel as safe on the road for some reason.  I just figured it was because I was surrounded by dumb asses.
Mmmm fries.

this wins the " greatest post of the day award" IMO.. every time I read it I bust up..  :))
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: WillyP on December 07, 2010, 10:42:51 am
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D

Passing on the double yellow is legal in some states, like VT.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Cap'n Bob on December 07, 2010, 11:02:12 am
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D

Passing on the double yellow is legal in some states, like VT.

That's one of the reasons that I do love Vermont!   :))
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: S Smith on December 07, 2010, 12:27:22 pm
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D

Passing on the double yellow is legal in some states, like VT.

I wouldn't know anything about that  ;D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: smithr1 on December 07, 2010, 03:07:11 pm
Oh well yes officer.  At that moment I was in a Vermont state of mind.  And back there in town I was feeling all California. 

I like the west Texas state of mind too.  Is there any other states with 80mph roads any more?
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: oldsawfiler on December 07, 2010, 04:45:17 pm
And in retrospect I was dreaming about Montana
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Brady on December 07, 2010, 11:49:08 pm
Montana is a great state to ride in. Last time I was there I was doing 85+ between Billings and Butte and I had a state motor cop pass me and wave. It was at that moment I knew that Montana was something special. :D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: WillyP on December 08, 2010, 10:30:12 am
Oh well yes officer.  At that moment I was in a Vermont state of mind.  And back there in town I was feeling all California. 

I like the west Texas state of mind too.  Is there any other states with 80mph roads any more?

Yes we have a couple of roads with no speed limit at all here in NH... One in Louden called New Hampshire Motor Speedway, another one in Epping called New England Dragway...  ;)
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: doug on December 08, 2010, 08:38:38 pm
Montana is a great state to ride in. Last time I was there I was doing 85+ between Billings and Butte and I had a state motor cop pass me and wave. It was at that moment I knew that Montana was something special. :D

Your sure he wasn't "waving" you over right??!!!?
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: 2linby on December 11, 2010, 12:18:41 am
From what I read the title is misleading.
 'Should be 'Older Riders'?
 Seasoned' makes me think of experience.
 Thinking now about seasoned curly fries.  :D

You know I love seasoned curly fries too, but the salt gives me heartburn.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Necron99 on December 30, 2010, 10:35:05 am
Montana doesn't have the "safe and reasonable" speed limit anymore.  They were forced into complying with everyone else by the feds.   >:(
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Rev Ryder on January 02, 2011, 02:39:01 pm
I thought that happened years ago with the 55 mph speed limit.  I thought there was a mandate for compliance in order to receive highway funds from the Fed. Or was it changed more recently?  OR was it changed, then changed back, then changed again?





Kinda sounds like;
I was lookin' back to see if you was lookin' back to see if I was lookin' back to see if you were lookin' back at me.   :)

Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Necron99 on January 10, 2011, 08:25:41 pm
It's been a good number of years.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Rev Ryder on January 11, 2011, 02:44:51 pm
Yeah, here's what I just found in Wikipedia and I still am not exactly sure what I am reading. LOL

Quote
Montana and Nevada were the last remaining U.S. states relying exclusively on the basic rule, without a specific, numeric rural speed limit prior to the National Maximum Speed Law of 1974 {I think this is referring to the "safe and reasonable" deal}. After repeal of Federal speed mandates in 1996, Montana was the only state to revert to rural daytime speed limit, beyond the Basic Rule {I'm not following this "beyond the Basic Rule"comment too well, can anyone clarify?}. After the Montana Supreme Court decided that the Basic Rule was too vague and therefore violated the due process requirement of the Montana Constitution., Montana's legislature imposed a 75 mph (121 km/h) limit on rural freeways in 1999, although the same wording in the basic rule remains.

 
Sometimes the term Basic Rule is in caps denoting a proper noun and other times it is not.  It appears they did something in 96 "beyond the Basic Rule", which I assume means they posted a daytime speed limit that had an actual number, but then in 99 they changed that number either up or down to be 75 mph.  Someone needs to clean up the Wiki's language on this one so that it is clearer, methinks.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Mitch on January 12, 2011, 02:13:00 am
The primary traffic violations committed by me are speeding and passing on a double yellow   ;D


+1
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: 6 Riders on March 18, 2012, 06:50:29 pm
Yeah, here's what I just found in Wikipedia and I still am not exactly sure what I am reading. LOL

Quote
Montana and Nevada were the last remaining U.S. states relying exclusively on the basic rule, without a specific, numeric rural speed limit prior to the National Maximum Speed Law of 1974 {I think this is referring to the "safe and reasonable" deal}. After repeal of Federal speed mandates in 1996, Montana was the only state to revert to rural daytime speed limit, beyond the Basic Rule {I'm not following this "beyond the Basic Rule"comment too well, can anyone clarify?}. After the Montana Supreme Court decided that the Basic Rule was too vague and therefore violated the due process requirement of the Montana Constitution., Montana's legislature imposed a 75 mph (121 km/h) limit on rural freeways in 1999, although the same wording in the basic rule remains.

I seem to recall the "basic rule" during daylight hours anything under 100 (in rural areas) is not going to get you "noticed" by the MSP, AND the tickets are somewhere in the neighborhood of $15.00 if they do "notice" you, if you get caught being "stupid" driving to fast through a City or Town (even on the freeway) your in trouble and it WILL cost you. I could be mistaken though, I'm not a Lawyer.
I do remember the feds threatening to pull HWY funding under Clinton, which caused Montana to post limits and "enforce" them. But the fine for getting a ticket was really cheap, and then only if you woke the trooper from a nap blowing by him in your Load arse car.
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: WillyP on March 20, 2012, 01:24:26 pm
Yeah, here's what I just found in Wikipedia and I still am not exactly sure what I am reading. LOL

Quote
Montana and Nevada were the last remaining U.S. states relying exclusively on the basic rule, without a specific, numeric rural speed limit prior to the National Maximum Speed Law of 1974 {I think this is referring to the "safe and reasonable" deal}. After repeal of Federal speed mandates in 1996, Montana was the only state to revert to rural daytime speed limit, beyond the Basic Rule {I'm not following this "beyond the Basic Rule"comment too well, can anyone clarify?}. After the Montana Supreme Court decided that the Basic Rule was too vague and therefore violated the due process requirement of the Montana Constitution., Montana's legislature imposed a 75 mph (121 km/h) limit on rural freeways in 1999, although the same wording in the basic rule remains.

 
Sometimes the term Basic Rule is in caps denoting a proper noun and other times it is not.  It appears they did something in 96 "beyond the Basic Rule", which I assume means they posted a daytime speed limit that had an actual number, but then in 99 they changed that number either up or down to be 75 mph.  Someone needs to clean up the Wiki's language on this one so that it is clearer, methinks.

Montana and Nevada did not have a maximum stated speed limit, the 'Basic Rule' law was 'safe and reasonable'. Very subjective, someone could be thrown in jail for going 45, or if they knew the judge, maybe they could argue 120 was 'safe and reasonable' and get away with it. Starting in '74, and prior to '96 there was a Federal law requiring states to enforce a maximum speed of 55. It was repealed in '96 and between '96 and '99 Montana did not have a specific maximum speed limit, just the Basic Rule of 'safe and reasonable'. In '99 the Montana court ruled that was too vague, and Montana enacted a maximum speed limit of 75.

At least that's how I read it, sounds pretty clear to me.  :beerchug:
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Thud300 on January 03, 2016, 03:01:32 am
One time, 'safe and reasonable" was 100 mph between Billings and Deadwood  ;D
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Bob H on January 03, 2016, 12:42:43 pm
The fact sheet referenced is a classic case of statistical manipulation using incomplete data.  It presents a partial list of data, and then uses the incomplete data to make conclusions which are not really supported by that true but incomplete data.

The information that is missing, and extremely important, is whether aging is the cause of the higher accident rate, or not.  The facts given are used to imply that this is a cause and effect relationship, however that is never proven to be the case.  Using such limited data to establish cause and effect is no more valid than showing that a higher percentage of motorcycles now are blue, and concluding that blue causes accidents.

There may be other significant factors affecting the higher accident rate.  The riding experience level, the type of riding, and the type of motorcycle all have an effect on accident rate, but these factors are not addressed by the author.

I'm not claiming that average age is not important, and there may be a cause and effect relationship here, but that conclusion is definitely not proven by the limited data presented by this fact sheet.

"There's an old saying by Mark Twain that goes like this. “Figures don't Lie, but Liars Figure.” Which basically means you can make statistical figures say anything."
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: TLR on May 22, 2016, 09:55:13 pm
Oh well yes officer.  At that moment I was in a Vermont state of mind.  And back there in town I was feeling all California. 

I like the west Texas state of mind too.  Is there any other states with 80mph roads any more?


Yep.  Idaho has 80 mph limit on parts of the interstate.

It's WONDERFUL!
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Jerry_Layman_NE on March 21, 2017, 04:34:13 pm
I always thought it was "Reasonable and Prudent". At least that's what Rich Reed's rally in Ennis MT used to be called. I was able to go to all three.


(http://www.houseofthud.com/montana/reason.jpg)

There is nothing quite as deflating as doing a high speed "all out" run, tucked down behind the windshield of your C10, throttle pinned all the way back to the stops... and then have Ron Ramlow on his ZX11 shoot past you with Carol on the back, as she turns around to snap a quick picture of you before they both disappear over the horizon.   :rotflmao:
Title: Re: MSF Seasoned Rider Fact Sheet
Post by: Steve_Reinschmidt_CO on March 21, 2017, 07:30:54 pm
On the first page I see these 2 "facts":

2. One of every three drivers in America is now over 55 years of age.

8. Recent data show that of the more than 57,000 drivers involved in fatal crashes
annually, more than 10,000 of those were over 55 years of age.

Check my math here but 1/3 (lets call it 33%) of the drivers are 55+. But only 17.5% of the drivers involved in fatal crashes are 55+. This particular statistic would imply 55+ drivers as better drivers than average. Like someone else pointed out correlation and causation are 2 different things.