Author Topic: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?  (Read 1605 times)

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Offline The Dude

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Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« on: May 15, 2017, 04:30:02 pm »
Before I venture forth here, I feel the need to admit that I have never taken any riding course.  To get my license required only reading the rules for bikes and taking a written test, then a not-at-all-difficult riding test.  That was 23 years ago.  I've had three bikes in that time that I may have accumulated 15-20K miles on, total. My current ride is my '02 C-10, which I've put about 6-7K miles on in the last 2.5 years.  Having said that, I know the rules of the road, and have managed to stay alive by not taking risks, or pissing people off with stupid or rude behavior.  Now that that's out of the way...

On a recent ride out to a friends house 65 miles north of me, I noticed construction going on on the opposite side of the highway.  It was slowing traffic, but not stopping it.  On the way back home, it was stopped and stacking up.  People were cutting across the grass median to get to the two-lane access road (traffic going both directions), and I did the same, rather than sit on the bike for ? minutes/hours.  Thing were going ok on the access road, but eventually came to a halt about a quarter mile or more from the traffic light at the crossroad.  It also happened to be the same location of the main road's construction bottleneck.  Because of the construction (and possible wreck - I mean it was STOPPED on the highway down below), and all the congestion, officers were directing traffic through the light.  One at a time.

Riding the shoulder is something that I am sure is illegal, and I have never had the need to do it.  I've seen it done from my car/truck, and wished I could escape, too.  I've seen it done from the seat of my bike, too, but didn't join because I didn't want to be "that guy", and I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. But it dawned on my pretty quickly I was in for a very loooooonnnnnng quarter mile+ slog.  On a hot bike.  Clutching/creeping for a yard or two at at time. And then I realized why those guys would take the shoulder, or split lanes, or whatever to get outta there.  My options were the right should which was narrow and not friendly, or the oncoming lane, which was clearly open.  Knowing I could wedge back into traffic if necessary, I took left and puttered up the road and got back in line where the off ramp met the feeder, which was 3-5 car lengths before the light.  Before I know it, a TX DPS Tahoe was dropped from a helicopter to the gap between me the next car back. 

We eventually got a nearby parking lot.  He said he was giving me a citation for violation: DRIVE IN LEFT LANE WHEN NOT PASSING OR WHERE PROHIBITED.  I couldn't argue, of course.  That's the law.  But I asked him if he's ever ridden motorcycle at all - Nope.  I didn't bother to explain.  I can't help but think that a rider wouldn't have given me that ticket.

So I ask: Is it ever acceptable to go around a parking lot of cars moving at .75 mile per hour?

What would you have done?



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Offline smithr1

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 04:37:30 pm »
I have done it twice. Both times I was about to pass out from the heat.  I was willing to tell any cop that and was also willing to pay the fine.  A lot cheaper than an ambulance ride and ER visit.
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Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2017, 04:43:00 pm »
I probably would have done the same.  I might have actually ridden on a sidewalk once... :-X
-James
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Offline NeroW

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2017, 05:50:27 pm »
I have done it twice. Both times I was about to pass out from the heat.  I was willing to tell any cop that and was also willing to pay the fine.  A lot cheaper than an ambulance ride and ER visit.

I have done this kind of thing a couple of times as well. All were for a safety issue. The one that springs to mind was back in the eighties riding a KZ750 in DFW in August. Stuck on a slab and overheating (the KZ was air-cooled). Rode the shoulder to the next exit, pulled into a lot and shut down just in time for an Irving PO to pull up behind me. I explained I was overheating and not trying to "gain an advantage", just trying to exit safely and give the bike a chance to cool down. His reply was "Are you finished?" as he wrote out the citation. I got the impression if I would have left a skid mark from braking too hard, this guy would have written me a ticket for "defacing public property".

To be fair, most PO's know what's happening. If the reason is legit, they are pretty cool about these things.

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Offline Ram

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2017, 07:50:04 pm »
What if you were to push the bike on the sides rather than ride it? Will one get a ticket?
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Offline GIant81

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2017, 08:46:09 pm »
Think of it this way, if you were in a different state, not only would it have been legal, but expected for you to lane split / filter.


Offline gPink

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2017, 10:04:13 pm »
So the police were toting a Tahoe by helo? Just to drop the 5000 lb vehicle on the highway to give you a ticket? The ticket is what...100 bucks and the helo is 2k per hour? I'd have to see the judge I think.
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Online WANDRNG

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2017, 10:46:10 pm »
Think of it this way, if you were in a different state, not only would it have been legal, but expected for you to lane split / filter.
In the state were it is legal to lane share - it is illegal to use the shoulder. You must stay in "traffic lanes" - so you cannot cross the white line on the right (onto the shoulder) or the center line (into opposing lanes or median).  Driving outside of a traffic lane can earn you a ticket in all 50 - depending on the individual LEO.

I would guess most LEO's would forgive you for using the shoulder at a safe (slow) speed to exit a road asap to cool your bike down or avoid passing out from heat stroke (but as previous accounts above prove, not all LEO's).  Just riding down the shoulder for mile upon mile  would probably be like waving the red cape if front of the bull.

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Offline The Dude

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 02:05:42 am »
gPink - I think you need took my words a little too literally.  Unless you were kidding, of course!

So, my next question is: Should I go to court and plead my case?  I've always accepted the consequences of driving too fast.  I don't like it, but not enough to prevent me from getting a speeding ticket every couple of years.  But this is different.
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Offline gsun

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2017, 02:15:59 am »
I use the shoulder all the time in that situation. Just keep a sharp eye out for marked cars. Unmarked - what can you do?

Offline gPink

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2017, 08:39:29 am »
gPink - I think you need took my words a little too literally.  Unless you were kidding, of course!

So, my next question is: Should I go to court and plead my case?  I've always accepted the consequences of driving too fast.  I don't like it, but not enough to prevent me from getting a speeding ticket every couple of years.  But this is different.
;D  Was there a double yellow where you crossed to the left to pass or in in normal circumstances would it have been legal to pass in that location? That would be my determining factor on whether to contest the ticket. As to the situation you found yourself in there is very little that is more nerve wracking than to be at a dead stop in traffic on a bike and hear screeching tires behind you. I would have moved on as you did.
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Offline Diz

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 09:08:44 am »
I wonder if pleading to a judge would have any impact. Get with the assistant D.A and try to reduce your citation. After all; your argument was "I know it was wrong but I was on a motorcycle and I could do it" doesn't seem too persuasive.

Your point about the LEO not riding so understanding was not there is valid I think. I once rode 1 1/2 miles on the shoulder in a rainstorm to get around stopped traffic. Had two officers wave me through when they saw me. Their department had at least 20 motorcycle patrolmen so I assumed there was an awareness....

Offline Ranger Jim

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 11:18:40 am »
IF you choose to appear before a judge, you should plead "Nolo Contendre" or no contest (some judges will say that's the same as a guilty plea) and then offer items in extenuation and mitigation (an explanation of why you did what you did and why it should be excused or reduced). At best you'll get the penalty dropped or reduced; at worst, hard to say. 
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Offline BlueZX10R

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 02:20:21 pm »
So, my next question is: Should I go to court and plead my case?  I've always accepted the consequences of driving too fast.  I don't like it, but not enough to prevent me from getting a speeding ticket every couple of years.  But this is different.

How much is your time worth?  If all you want to do is reduce the fine, it probably isn't worth the court time in my experience.  How much time off would you have to take?  I've found that traffic court eats up at least half a day. 

If you are trying to keep it off your record, then hire a lawyer.  I've never seen anyone argue their own case in front of a judge and do anything besides reduce the fine.  My last speeding ticket got changed to a non-moving violation.
-James
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Offline Rico

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2017, 03:16:45 pm »
Hi, I'm Ricardo...and I'm an avid lane splitter.
In a situation ike yours I would of done the same, maybe taken a side walk if i had to.
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Offline JimBob

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2017, 03:48:56 pm »
IF you choose to appear before a judge, you should plead "Nolo Contendre" or no contest (some judges will say that's the same as a guilty plea) and then offer items in extenuation and mitigation (an explanation of why you did what you did and why it should be excused or reduced). At best you'll get the penalty dropped or reduced; at worst, hard to say.


Along these lines:


First, how much is ticket, are there points involved. You're going to pay court costs+ some other ticket if it's reduced. I've found court is only valuable if it can prevent me getting/losing points on my license.


Courts are REALLY busy, so there are DA/Prosecutors assigned the task of plea bargaining tickets to expedite court for bigger issues. Most likely the Prosecutor will speak to you to make a deal to get you to plead guilty, reducing time before the judge. Hold out for no points - or when they speak with you let them know "no points" is what you're after.


Everyt ticket I've had over the years has been "plead down" to a LOT less than what the cop wrote.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2017, 07:47:23 pm »


 I've never seen anyone argue their own case in front of a judge and do anything besides reduce the fine. 


  I've argued my own case 2x and had both cases dismissed. Steve
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2017, 09:41:30 pm »
I've had many motorcycle citations, and very few automobile tickets,
I used to just think, heck, pay the ticket and forget it... but something in my mind clicked a long time ago... you have a right, and an obligation so to speak, to have your day in court.... and that's how the judicial system can change their views based on case laws and circumstances... it takes time, but if nobody ever went and argued in a court, there would be no lane splitting is ok law, nor would there be a law now allowing motorcycles to utilize the high occupancy special lanes of traffic the HOV lanes, and further, motorcycle awareness and firmer sentences on aggresive drivers that run over motorcycle riders would never have fome about.....
Think about it....

Its your chance to make a difference, and truth be told, a person with a valid reason other than a utter b/s line and abusive attitude, may and does, offer some people reasonable outcome.

I've gone to court, when I could have waived a ticket, 3 different times... for tripple digit speeds... and came out with a fine, but not a multi count crime, which would have included wreckless opp and fleeing, as non were pressable as the officers in all occaisons never appeared in court... they all figured the ticket would be paid, and viola...

My experience in this is the following:
Go to court.
Prior to the hearing, by at least an hour, make sure to speak with the bailiff.... he stacks the citations for the order of the hearings the judge will preside over... make sure you ask nicely, and be respectful, of the bailiff, to place your ticket on top, so you get your time early in the roster...
Look presentable, and be respectfull, you don't have to kizzazz, but just be a normal person.
Ask if a DA will be present during the procedings, or if they do predispositions in chamber prior to the actual trial, this means a lot, as they tend to "rubber stamp" tickets based n violation only, and not prevailing circumstances by each violator. If he will be in court, that is good... if not, you have a bit more to do.

Don't reveal anything to the DA if you speak with him, it will just be used by him, to assist his agenda of thinning your wallet, simply explain there are extenuating circumstances requring some judgmental leniency.

When called, listen to the charge, and the penalties... listen close. 
Never admit Guilt... it is boilerplate for "slam me"
If you feel you actually have a "case" depending on how severe the penalties for the offense are described, well... you plead not guilty, and ask for a hearing with a lawyer... boom, and you come back and play again, and may win or loose, but you protected yourself...
(I only say this because not knowing a drivers history, or what they have to loose, its an option...and speeds up the current hearing process... at hand.)

If the penalties are no jail, and a simple fine...($100-$200) with points and high resulting insurance premiums... yes, you better think about them..., then you can do the old "nolo contendre - no contest" schpiel, and the judge, will continue..
Just hope he didn't have a bad day, or a bunch of disrespectful people before him that po'd him before he sees you..

Now, you get to explain why, what, etc, makes you think he should be lenient, or more lenient on you by your description of facts...(again, hope the arresting officer is not in court, but even then, it still can work for you, as he was onsite, and knew traffic conditions, and also HAZARDS to a person on a bike, in that situatin...if asked.. and you WILL ask if the opportunity arrises.. )

Now you state facts...
How long you sat, and walked basically, with a 700# bike, in heat.
How the machine was overheating, and excessive mechanical wear, possibly rendering it inoperable shortly, would have been both costly, and create an even further blockage of traffic
The effects this event had progressed by duration, effecting your ability to safely conduct yourself without personal physical harm, or damage during the event.
Your driving record. (Or not, depending on what it is)
And,
The ever present dangers of being run over by someone behind you, who is not paying attention, while they are wrapped up in a steel box, and talking on a phone...while putting on eye makeup, and eating a croissant, and turned around smacking the kids in the back seat...
Etc.

Speed, level of attentiveness, cautious and mindfull relocation to place yourself out of harms way, in a very reasonable and as safe as possible manner was your goal, and your only goal...


Go for it.

Oh, personally, I'm in Ohio, and if you put your four way flashers on, and drive SLOW at a walking pace, in the right berm, I could not buy a citation, but then the bike cops ride Harleys... well, most of them...so...

4 way flashers mean you have trouble... and that goes a long way in court.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 09:56:54 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Heel2d

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 01:40:06 pm »
I'd talk to a lawyer first. Won't cause anything unless you hire him/her to represent you but you'll find out what might be possible. Some counties in my state allow you to negotiate with the DA and others require you have counsel. Don't ask how I know this.    :??:   
Anyway initial consultation is free and remember that thing about "having a fool for a client".
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Offline old n slow

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2017, 10:38:44 pm »
In my county, in my state, Missouri, there is soething called "court supervision". Basically it is usupervised probation for traffic offfenses. My 19 year old son got a speeding ticket on his FJR....20 MPH over on a city street.

The system worked like this. First court date....Plead not guilty and request a pretrial conference with the prosecutor. That was a 3 hour situation to plead not guilty. Second court appearance, NINE months later, he has his pretrial confrence with he prosecutor. This is just sitting at the prosecutors table in the court room while other court business is going on....My kid asks for court supeevision in exchange fora guilty plea. Prosecutor agrees...most always do...my kid pays 35 buks for court costs, no fines and points if he has no moving violations for 6 months, then the ticket is removed from his record. Another three hour civics lessonfor the kid!

The key to the american petty judicial system is to just show up and act like a normal human...doing that will make ypu stand out among the norm that judges ans prosecutors deal with daily.
Mike D.   

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Offline The Dude

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2017, 10:47:50 am »
Thanks for all the input.  I get a speeding ticket about every two years (mostly car, some bike) and am not concerned about the points as I am about the insurance hike.  I've got two teenagers driving now and insurance premiums have quadrupled in the past 2 years because of it.  I would like to face the court to make my point on behalf of all motorcyclists, as suggested by MOB.  But I'm quite sure I could get deferred adjudication* for this by letting go of that cause.  (* Pay the fine, don't get another violation for 90 days, and it'll be like it never happened (except for my wallet).

Of course, I could just take my chances that the officer won't show up to court, which, I'm told, results in an automatic dismissal.

I have until Monday morning (6/5) to make up my mind.
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Offline GKreamer

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2017, 12:25:13 am »
So?  How'd it go in court?

Offline JimBob

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2017, 02:00:59 pm »

Of course, I could just take my chances that the officer won't show up to court, which, I'm told, results in an automatic dismissal.



Officers ALWAYS show up. He'll have his stack of citations ready and go through all his cases at once.




Offline The Dude

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2017, 02:35:38 am »
I went on June 5th to court expecting to actually go to court.  Turns out if you want your time in court, they set another date in order have the citing officer there.  Great.  :-[

After that delay, then a date reset by the court, I finally got to present my case today.  Someone here estimated a half day for traffic court, and that was exactly right.

I wound up talking to the DA or prosecuting attorney just prior to my time to go before the judge.  He offered 90 day deferred adjudication with a reduced fine.  I thought about it, then told him that I was hoping to get to explain my case: that I was not driving carelessly/recklessly, and that I was only looking after my own safety.  Once he heard that traffic was backed up, and that the offense was on the feeder road, he came to the quick conclusion that I'd been cited for the wrong offense, and he dismissed it altogether!

Honestly, I believe that citation was valid, but that this DA saw the situation for what it was.  Or maybe he liked my tie (a tip from an ex-cop co-worker).

So, I didn't get to write new laws for motorcyclists.  But I got off scot-free.  I can't complain too much.
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Offline Diz

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Re: Technically, I'm guilty. But is it wrong?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 08:55:10 am »
It probably looked as if you were rolling dice for a while Congratulations! :great: