Author Topic: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!  (Read 4869 times)

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Offline mattchewn

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2016, 03:34:30 pm »
Here we go again.
That dyno chart is missing the truly important data point........... TORQUE!!!!!   This is what gets the bike moving NOT HP!  The R1 may, ( I say may because I have not seen the torque numbers, but if the power is being praised then it is a fairly safe bet it has a great torque curve to make up for the lower top end HP), have a substantially better torque curve down low and that would make it a much more fun bike to ride around town and on a tight track if you aren't wringing it out at every turn. Torque is why I love throwing the C14 around on a tight track, feeling that pull without having to rev the snot out of it is awesome!
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2016, 10:14:54 pm »
Matt, Yes, I should have linked that. You would think high torque, but with regards to torque, its terrible, if high numbers is the goal.

http://www.motorcycle.com/shoot-outs/2015-six-way-superbike-track-shootout-video/attachment/070215-2015-literbike-shootout-torque-dyno-1

It feels like the chart shows.  That has to be the silliest thing said, so far, but theres a good hit  right at 7500 rpm.  Despite being a real 1000 cc machine, you'd swear "750" when it leaves a stop sign.

There has to be some other component in this we cant assign number to? And this component we cant put  a number on..Is Suzuki after THAT with their new arrangement. Based on what the tests say about this r1, this is the goal. Not huge power, everywhere.





Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2016, 10:34:05 pm »
Wow, well based on the dyno chart, the BMW crushes everything... at least if I had to pick a bike based on a dyno chart alone, that would be it.

 the praise for the yamaha probably comes from the "feeling" of power as it gains power over 7500 rpm. This isn't that is making so much power up high, it's that it was so sorry down low, so the rush of power is more noticeable. OTOH, the BMW will just pull your arms out of the sockets everywhere all the time so there's no rush, just great linear power.

  BTW, Linear power is the only way to go, when I tune that's exactly what I'm trying to achieve. Steve
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2016, 10:59:18 pm »


Steve, as you saw, the only way (on paper) it will compete and beat the bmw is to stay above 7000 rpm. You'd have to assume if the race was happening under 5000 rpm, the bmw would be long gone before the yamaha ever came on pipe.

If this is how its done, on the track, suzuki now invests a bunch of money and technology into something that improves low to mid power..that no one cares about, or uses? No way would they do that.

So, like you, I'm thinking that article was mis-interpeted, or ???


Offline Racerboy

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2016, 01:57:02 am »
Steve, I wondered about that, but I remembered going to the last wsbk race we had here in Utah.  That was 2011.

You rarely get to hear this on tv, but up close you could hear the Kawasaki "missing" like crazy.   Oddly enough, the missing coincided with every slow corner.   The bike "misfired' in any track section where ultimate  horsepower was not needed. Lost of time spent riding on 2 or3 cylinders, but the sound said "not all four".

That "missing" sound doesn't have anything to do with cam timing, and it certainly isn't an actual "miss'; it's the traction control. You only heard it on slow corners because that is when it is in effect the most.

Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2016, 04:05:21 am »
So I've been thinking about it, and in street automotive, or in the case of the c-14, The cam timing is short because that's where the vehicles spend most of thier time, and then the occasional foray into upper rpms gets more overlap for more peak hp. Maybe the racers are doing the exact opposite, long cams high overlap for peak HP, and then retarding the intake for less overlap at low rpm. In that case, the ordinary position of the balls would be in the out position, and they would generally be trying to migrate in.  Steve

Yeah... except when you look at the design, the balls move out as rpm's rise. Think about it - how would the balls move inwards when centrifugal force was moving them outwards? Even with reversed sheaves, it wouldn't happen. That is what is so confounding about this design. I'm trying to find the US patent application for this, I've seen a couple of pages excerpted from the patent, but none that address the actual mechanism.
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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2016, 04:23:24 am »
I dont quite understand your anger. We could just move on and discuss this like adults.   It is an option.

I was not stating facts I knew nothing about. Like your euro 4 emissions rant. Worth noting is you have yet to respond to that, have you?

 I was asking questions and wondering.  The reference to honda and yamaha made sense if you understood the topic.  The point you misssed was this:

Would suzuki spend a ton of research money on a valve system thats not as "good" as what the competition is using?  I dont think so, so what really going on? Opening valves, with cams is outdated technology in moto gp when the competition uses air.

Emissions not applying?   Thats not true.    This is from last years rule book. Maybe different for 2016

 Factory Option    Factory Option, with concessions     Open class
Fuel    20 liters          24 liters (22 liters)*                     24 liters

If someone came out with anything that improved fuel mileage, and let them make full power  for the entire race, it would be a big deal. This is what I meant by emissions. Reduced fuel consumption is  a big deal in moto gp.

And again, you totally miss the point, Roland. Just to clarify, I'm not angry, I'm frustrated. Frustrated by your clear lack of knowledge. You don't seem to understand racing vs street bikes. You don't seem to understand development for racing in MotoGP vs development for Superbike (which requires street bile homologation). You don't seem to understand the difference between how valves are opened vs how that opening is timed. And you don't seem to understand the difference between emissions and fuel consumption. All boiled down into Matt correcting you on the sound you heard from the Kawi's not "missing" because of some sort of timing built in to the ECU, but actually due to the traction control. Something that was clearly obvious in last years WSB at Laguna, especially in the infield turns. And you should have heard the enormous exhaust gas detonations when they hit the rev limiter going up the hill out of turn 5. But wait, you probably thught they weren't tuned properly.

Sigh. I'm done wallowing (southerners will get the reference). All I wanted to do was post some neat info about the newest manufacturer in MotoGP and all you wanted to do was cast stones. "Can't be true!"  Whatever.   ::)
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2016, 11:28:27 am »
 You did an awesome job on euro 4, dont forget that. You learned us something there.   When I said, "You rarely get to hear this on tv, but up close you could hear the Kawasaki "missing" like crazy.   Oddly enough, the missing coincided with every slow corner. "

That was called "Tongue in cheek"     Yes, I'm well aware of traction control. Several of my bikes have it, and I've heard it.

Missing from traction control. Lets think about just that.  Its pretty much the same point as if the ecu is telling the bike, "We dont need full power in this position".  Of course its traction control, but was implemented not from cam timing, or mapping,  but from actually dropping two cylinders (I believe 2 and 3) as confirmed by Kawasaki France.  In 2011, they did not have ride by wire and this was a fast and easy way to add "traction control" without a ride by wore ecu. I'm sure you invented that, right?

You posted a poorly written article and got scared when someone wanted to talk about it. As you said, "Suzuki is a small company" they cant use moto gp technology and not use it on the street. or wouldn't..or did not have the money to...You said soemthign like that, and I agree.

But when I started thinking about how it would come to the street, you got scared and lashed out.

Sadly, you never came close to explaining, or offering a thought as to why Suzuki might want this on a  moto gp machine. From what Steve said, he thought the system was to improve low-mid power (as described)  which would be odd on a machine not especially dependent on low-mid power.

What I never understood is the venom you threw out. That made you look like an idiot.   I'd rather learn about something than attack others.




Offline Bob H

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2016, 12:40:03 pm »
Is it just me or does anyone else find this exchange to be a violation of rule 4?
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2016, 12:54:59 pm »
I dont think theres a rule issue, is there?   A heated discussion, for sure, but not much more.

I think if he and I met, there would be  a handshake more so than punches thrown.  Yes, its nice when everyone can be buddy-buddy, but I've learned a lot from threads where people did have some passion and thought involved, and I feel like this thread has that. 



Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2016, 04:03:31 pm »
So I've been thinking about it, and in street automotive, or in the case of the c-14, The cam timing is short because that's where the vehicles spend most of thier time, and then the occasional foray into upper rpms gets more overlap for more peak hp. Maybe the racers are doing the exact opposite, long cams high overlap for peak HP, and then retarding the intake for less overlap at low rpm. In that case, the ordinary position of the balls would be in the out position, and they would generally be trying to migrate in.  Steve

Yeah... except when you look at the design, the balls move out as rpm's rise. Think about it - how would the balls move inwards when centrifugal force was moving them outwards? Even with reversed sheaves, it wouldn't happen. That is what is so confounding about this design. I'm trying to find the US patent application for this, I've seen a couple of pages excerpted from the patent, but none that address the actual mechanism.

  we're clearly in agreement. I expect the cam timing was selected for when the balls are out, and when they migrate inward as rpms slow, the cam retards. So it's a racing cam that gets mellowed out, not a street cam that gets pumped up. Steve
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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2016, 05:27:16 pm »
  we're clearly in agreement. I expect the cam timing was selected for when the balls are out, and when they migrate inward as rpms slow, the cam retards. So it's a racing cam that gets mellowed out, not a street cam that gets pumped up. Steve


Except... Suzuki's press release clearly states it retards the cams at. I'm having trouble thinking they lied about this, other than to confuse the other manufacturers for a bit. But then, head games are pretty common in racing.  ;D

Did you have a chance to look at the pictures included with the article on the MCN website?
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/secrets-of-suzukis-vvt/
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2016, 01:08:24 pm »
You know what sound cool about Suzuki's system?  It sounds like it works within a "range" vs an on/off switch.

Granted, if I mention vfr 800, its not really fair. Honda disables valves opening on that bike, but I dont think suzuki's system will do this. They say the new generation vfr is better, but I wont be finding out.

http://www.sportrider.com/sites/sportrider.com/files/styles/medium_1x_/public/import/page_element_images/146_0502_32_z%2Btorque_dyno_chart%2B.jpg?itok=R0vNUkkB

Look at what happened at @7000 rpm.  Almost instantly, the bike picked up 20 hp. It looks fun, but not really. It did not feel like a fast bike. It felt like a 300 ninja that turned into an 800 at 7k.

I remember back in the 80 and 90's. Suzuki might have been one of the smaller manufacturers, but their bikes never reflected that.  Both offroad, and onroad had some good, solid and quality machines.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2016, 02:13:17 pm »
  we're clearly in agreement. I expect the cam timing was selected for when the balls are out, and when they migrate inward as rpms slow, the cam retards. So it's a racing cam that gets mellowed out, not a street cam that gets pumped up. Steve


Except... Suzuki's press release clearly states it retards the cams at. I'm having trouble thinking they lied about this, other than to confuse the other manufacturers for a bit. But then, head games are pretty common in racing.  ;D

Yes, I looked at the pics. And I have found that trusting printed reports is a waste of time. Heck you should have been there when Kaw was debuting the c-14 in Daytona in early 2008; A bunch of us Coggers were getting a walk around by one of the sales folks, The other guys pushed me to the front to ask Q's about the VVT... the explanation I got was that it was built with counterweights like a mechanical distributor advance or a compression release  :-[ :-[  Steve

Did you have a chance to look at the pictures included with the article on the MCN website?
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/secrets-of-suzukis-vvt/
C-14 ECU flashing for performance and rideability enhancement
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2016, 03:14:05 pm »
Steve, I dont believe anyone knows more about the c14 than you do.  If your not an expert, I dont know who is.

VVT and the c14.   Did we gain anything with their choice to use this?

I know the theory part, but if the c14 dyno chart (hp and torque) is compared to the 2008 zx14.....

If we use this chart:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/2008_zx14_busa_dyno.jpg?378220     and

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2008/01/article/2008-kawasaki-ninja-zx-14-comparison/

I know both bikes are restricted and your version would look much better, but stock for stock its tough to find a plus side, isn't it? Or am I not seeing it?


Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2016, 04:15:08 pm »
Yeah, the torque on the zx14 is a mess until 4000 rpm. I have a lot of experience on the c-10, and they did the same thing with that and the zx1000 ninja, the cams were 15* longer on the ninja, and the cams are 15* longer on the zx14, I know because I timed them.

  Now along the way "back in the day" I installed zx1000 cams into the c-10. Below 5000 rpm the stock c-10 was faster, it would pull away easily on roll ons. from 5-7k, they would tie, and from 7k up the zx cams pulled away hard.

  Moving on, I developed my own cams for the c-10. 15* shorter than stock c-10's. Everyone loves them, bike has all kinds or torque, very throttle responsive. This is how the bike "shoodaben".

  Apply that to the c-14 / zx14 comparison. the c-14 is much cleaner and stronger running down low. Shorter cam timing looking even shorter by sitting at a 122*LC intake. So yeah, I think Kaw did fine with the c-14.

   And just as a point, I think Fred Harmon knows more about the bike overall than I do. He has really racked up an amazing amount of information in the compilation of Concourier tech articles he's done. Steve
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Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2016, 06:58:15 pm »
Any updated info on the New Suzuki?  All Ive seen, so far, is a few pics of the new gsxr.

One of the British mags said Suzuki has "30 new models that will be released during the next 18 months."
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 02:24:49 pm by rcannon409 »

Offline rcannon409

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Re: Suzuki finds loophole for VVT in MotGP!
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2016, 01:59:12 pm »
This is not vvt, its not  a suzuki, but I thought you guys would like it.

http://vid.carbuzz.com/amazing-heres-what-a-cam-on-a-bmw-superbike-looks-like-redlined-at-14k/

I hope someone will do a cut-away with suzukis new system.