Author Topic: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining  (Read 586 times)

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Offline strum

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Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« on: October 03, 2018, 01:58:19 pm »
 My bike is an 08 and Im running Pilot 4 Gts Currently almost 5,900 miles on the rear tire and i was looking at it to day . im seeing some very distinct raising on the back edges of the tread.  I noticed it all throughout this tires life but as its nearing its life the raising is much more pronounced.
 Doing a search and watching videos my understanding is the rebound dampining is either to soft too hard.  The guy in the video said that if the raising is in the front then its set to slow and if in the back its set too fast ( i could have that backwards) but the manuel doesn't say slow or fast it says soft or hard .
 The suspension settings it were played with by me and a mechanic when I first got the bike 2 years ago and not messed with since.  I like the handling but i can see by the wear it needs some tuning.
 any help is greatly appreciated .
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Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
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Offline Staylo

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 02:13:26 pm »
When they say “slow” and “fast”, they are referring to the rate of travel of the suspension. In other words, if you increase the damping forces, you slow down the travel, and vice versa. A slow rate of travel will cause the suspension to feel “harder”, and a faster rate of travel will cause the suspension to feel “softer”. On your suspension, the “+” indicates an increase in dampening, or a slowing of suspension travel, and it will feel harder. The “-“ indicates a decrease in damping, and therefore an increase in suspension travel speed and it will feel softer. The suspension wants to move fast enough to be able to follow the contours of the road, but slowly enough that it doesn’t create bouncing, or cause the tire to lose contact with the road.  As you start to understand the mechanics of suspension, and how it does it’s job, you can begin to feel what adjustments need to be made and how the bike is reacting. I would suggest getting a good book on motorcycle suspension tuning and reading it.
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Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 03:08:56 pm »
thanks Staylo . I just got off the phone with the guy at Taxxon.   Guess what our suspension is crap. I know he's right but Im just not ready to throw 2+ grand into it. so ill play around a little .. he did say he could help some if i rode it down but didnt think it was worth the money.  He said about 40 bucks so thats not crazy money . I may go that route to start.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline Staylo

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2018, 03:56:22 pm »
Unfortunately, that is true of all motorcycles, not just the Concours. Even my really expensive Ducati I owned before was not properly sprung for anybody but a 14-year-old girl. The components themselves were of good quality, but for some reason motorcycle manufacturers like to put wimpy springs on their bikes when they sell them. Probably because 90% of motorcycle riders don’t know the first thing about suspension, and all they care about is does it feel ‘cushy’. Saltsprings do feel cushy, but the problem is they handle like crap. I will say this, it is a lot of money, but it’s almost like buying a new motorcycle. Now, if you just putt around and tour at a leisurely pace, then my opinion would be I wouldn’t spend the money on upgrading suspension. However, if you like to zip around at a brisk clip, and like running the twists in the mountains, then it’s the best thing you’ll ever do for the bike. It’s one of those things that is very difficult to wrap your mind around spending the money, until you have spent it and see the results, and then you wish you would’ve done it sooner. In the meantime, if Traxxion will help you set up your suspension as well as can be achieved with the stock components for $40, then that’s a no brainer.
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'11 C14

Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2018, 08:13:33 pm »
 Just for fun i turned the adjuster out a little.  it was  1 1/4 tun out .  So I turned it exactly 2 turns out . It actually feels better to me . Just a touch softer .
 Ill have to run some twisties to really know  though.. That is if I can find some :D
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline RoadKillHeaven

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2018, 08:18:43 pm »
Manufacturers cannot and will not fulfill whims of fastidious consumers.
Manufacturers produce what 90% of consumers will be content with.
I for one believe C14, with proper set up, is a very well-behaving sport-tourer and its suspension is up for the task virtually anywhere where public roads are.
Modifications are very SUBJECTIVE and may or may not work for different people.
If you have the budget to perform mods, no one will ever stop you.
I have been, for the most part, annoyed with quality of most aftermarket parts manufacturers.

Cheers...

P.S
Rear bump and rebound should be softer/faster in the back to minimize bucking (as in horse) at speed. But not too soft/fast to create wobble when leaned at speed.
Proper set up will transform any bike...



Offline ron203

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2018, 10:53:28 pm »
Sounds like we need a road trip to Traxxion.... :popcorncouple:
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2018, 11:23:02 pm »
Good news ! If you happen to weigh 150lbs then almost all motorcycle  manufacturers have already installed the correct springs (including the C14)  but it is still up to you to adjust your pre-load to get the correct chassis geometry or ride height (sag settings) 
So you must and should always replace the springs front and back (unless you weigh 150lbs).  Now comes the stock  shock valving. There is nothing you can do to fix that on the big three street bikes. Those stock  valves are garbage.  They must be replaced. If not then you will have a harsh-non compliant  ride over any rough and changing road conditions.  That is the way it is and no way around that.  I love it when I hear about how a 55 turns much better. All a 55  does is change the chassis geometry which anyone can do for free without changing a tire.
Most of us already knew this trick by dropping the front 10mm.   Here is one thing you will never hear on the race track : "I think I will buy a taller  back tire because it turns better!"

Some one will be along soon to tell you that it is your tire pressure that is the problem. 
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 11:27:12 pm by Daytona_Mike »
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Offline Wingedspirit

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2018, 11:38:59 pm »
training Wheels is right. I took that advice & visited a reputable shop and had my setup done.
1hr. labor and I'm very happy. I did put two more clicks harder on the rear compression adjustment for two up.
I'll try to get the setup for you to go by for a baseline. Stay "tuned"

http://forum.cog-online.org/tires-suspension-c14/do-this-before-you-buy-new-suspension/

Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2018, 12:29:52 am »
Sounds like we need a road trip to Traxxion.... :popcorncouple:
[/quote

 Dan is working with me .. possible monday morn or wed afternoon.  I hope monday morning works for him.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline Staylo

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2018, 12:36:19 am »
Just for fun i turned the adjuster out a little.  it was  1 1/4 tun out .  So I turned it exactly 2 turns out . It actually feels better to me . Just a touch softer .
 Ill have to run some twisties to really know  though.. That is if I can find some :D
If the adjuster you’re referring to that you turned out to two turns is the large black knob sticking out of the side of the bike right in front of the left saddlebag, that is the preload adjuster. Turning that knob out will remove pre-load from the shock spring, making the suspension feel softer, but that doesn’t change the damping rate. Preload is the amount of tension placed on the spring while the motorcycle is at rest.  There is a threaded collar on the shock that screws up and down the shock body either compressing, or releasing pressure on the spring. That’s a very important part of properly setting up a suspension, but preload is a once and done adjustment that needs to be done while taking measurements of the frame while you’re doing it to get certain parameters set within a proper window. That something that’s usually done by a suspension tuner, or somebody who is well studied in suspension set up. Generally the only time someone would mess with preload is if they are going from one up writing, to two up riding, where additional preload is beneficial due to the extra weight of the passenger. I’m assuming the $40 you would be paying Traxxion is for them to do a baseline set up on the bike, which would include attempting to get your pre-loads, front and rear, set to proper range. There’s a good chance, however, that it will not be possible because of the light Springs they use from the factory, But to do a proper suspension set up you will need to be sitting on your bike while the tech does the work, so it’ll be a really good opportunity to ask a lot of questions and get a tutorial on suspension tuning theory. That would alone be worth the $40.
Lancaster County, PA
'11 C14

Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2018, 12:52:00 am »
Staylo .. no im speaking of the small adjuster on the bottom of the shock. using a flat screwdriver. Rebound damping
 
   Dan says our suspension is inferior and im sure he is correct comparing it to theirs. But the way I see it is if an inferior system is set up poorly then its double inferior. 
  I have read and played with all this in the past and really I know im not to far from the best i can get with what i have
    But Im a slowpoker what do I know lol.
   Yes your absolutely right . the education I can get is worth the 40 bucks.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2018, 01:04:14 am »
Really i started this because of the odd looking tire wear im seeing and it got me looking at what would cause it. this led me to rebound setting which led me to Taxxion which  pretty much told me we will not end our weird tire wear issues. without upgrading. but dropping $2-3000 is a large pill to swallow. So for now I just want to know im as good as I can be with what I have.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline Douglas

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2018, 04:08:15 am »
Have to see it in person. Bring it to my track event and I could tell you
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2018, 02:37:15 pm »
Note: Preload cannot and will not change spring rate (softer or harder) It can only raise or lower the bikes frame (chassis geometry) . This is why the springs have to be replaced to match the weight of the rider+ passenger plus luggage.  Preload adjusters give you some (a little) forgiveness when you load up the bike but if it sags too much  no amount of preload will pick the bike up to the correct chassis geometry. The springs have to be replaced.  On high end dirt bikes the springs get old and have to be replaced. I  am on my 3rd set  on KTM.
The tires are showing cupping due to poor valving which the C14  has zero adjustment for compression damping so the tire itself  becomes the shock absorb-er.This is why traxxion is saying there is nothing you can do with those  stock shocks  but:
1) Re-valve
2) replace

I am surprised Traxxion is not offering to re-valve your existing shocks.
The problem with high end- good suspension is that many of us dont even know what that is (me included at one time)  but when you do ride (example- Ohlins or Penske /AK20's) then your spoiled and to fix it it costs $$$. I wish I wasn't spoiled but I am now  so when I bought my C14 I was like 'This is garbage!' I hate this handling and rough/harsh ride. 
I was lucky and found used AK20's and an Ohlins (here on this forum) which transformed the bike from:  'I hate it !'  to  'I love it!!'
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 03:03:31 pm by Daytona_Mike »
Normally aspirated engines have perpetual turbo lag
2000 Red C10 1052 kit
2008  C14 Silver Dammit Full AreaP- Flies are put back in SISF_Flash
2011  KLR650   688 piston ported and polished
2011  KTM 530    This thing is FUN!!

Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2018, 12:28:21 am »
Thanks guys yall have given me much good info.   I hope to get down there(traxxion) next week .. i have some new tire ordered but I want them to look at what im running before i change em.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline Douglas

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2018, 01:03:00 am »
Your cupped tires will tell them how bad your rebound is. I just talked to Max and Dan a couple days ago. Tell them you're part of the Concours Owners Group and they'll help you out. if you're interested in seeing what great suspension can do I know a place where you can put the screws to it
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Offline Clip67

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2018, 10:00:36 pm »
I agree with the above posts.  I will add that I bought a new left-over 2016 this Spring, and noticed that harsh jolt or bucking effect on the rear while using the "stock" setting as listed in the manual.  In other words, the rebound on the shock was set too "hard" for me, as the bike came set up from the factory.

I changed what you did, and went softer on the shock rebound and it certainly helped on the sharp edge bumps, pavement joints, etc...  The problem is everything is a compromise and to get the shock to feel better on the hard bumps, I had to make it softer than I prefer for the best handling. I really wish there were compression adjustments at both ends as well.

Like the others have said the bike is under-sprung from the factory (unless you are a lighter rider), and certainly it is for me (about 200 lbs with gear). Getting the preload setting as close as they can be for your weight helps a lot. Replacing with the correct spring rates at both ends would be a significant help as well, but then you still have the valving issues to deal with.

I plan to upgrade the suspension in the near future, but for now I spent some time getting the bike as good as it can be in stock form.  I have some experience from racing dirt bikes, but if you are unsure of which way to go it may be helpful to get some inexpensive set up help from the pros... If you have time to play with it a little, then make one minor change at a time and record what your new setting is. Don't be afraid to go "too far" in one direction or another as it will help you to zero in on the best setting. Remember that both ends need to work together of course. Hope this helps...

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 10:03:50 am »
Sounds like we need a road trip to Traxxion.... :popcorncouple:

Sounds like we need a COG Sponsored Discount and Community Relationship with this Guy.  :)

And before you get any ideas Ron, I will NOT head-up that committee.  :nananana:

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Offline Douglas

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 10:25:36 am »
I nominate Nate to speak with Max about becoming g an industry member 😂
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Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2018, 12:55:07 am »
I ended up going to Traxxion today. The tech took my bike for a spin then did some adjustments, then he put me on it to do some measurements.  A few more adjustments and done. He said he sees a lot of bikes come in way out but mine wasnt off much.
  I could immediately feel a difference. not like super dramatic but a difference all the same.  The balance and overall ride is more comfortable . Ill have to get it out on some twistys to give a final review but im happy.
  Those guys are great to talk with and are full of information too . It was a good experience.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."

Offline ron203

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2018, 10:52:59 am »
I nominate Nate to speak with Max about becoming g an industry member 😂

I didn't do it....  :nananana:

(Well done Doug!)   ;)
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Offline strum

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Re: Help or addvise needed on rear rebound dampining
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2018, 05:08:22 pm »
Ok after a week or two of riding i wanted to revisit this post just to say Im glad I had those guys do a set up for me.
 It was worth the 45 bucks.
 Ive read where a lot of guys say the C14 suspension is sub par but Ive decided that for the average guy like me the suspension is more than adequate.
 My set up wasnt far off but those guys did some fine tuning and I think where they really hit it for me was they got the front and back rebounds equal.
 I feel like I can read the road better, its more stable, and the few curves i find around here  :nananana:  are even more fun to ride.
 So should you go out and spend the bucks to have yours set up ? Thats up to you i guess. But it worked out for me. For now Im gonna save my $2500 bucks.
2008 C-14
Measurement is the first step that leads to control and eventually to improvement.
If you can't measure something, you can't understand it.
If you can't understand it, you can't control it.
If you can't control it, you can't improve it."