Author Topic: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help  (Read 1344 times)

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Offline ghostrider990

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Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« on: April 25, 2018, 03:58:20 pm »
As I look to replace yet another set of tires for the season, I have noticed a recurring theme with tire wear on this bike.
This will be my 3rd set of Angel GT Spec A's, previous was the OEM B-stones, and one set of Michelin Road 3's.
All have worn the same, except the OEM's, which I ditched early.

It's tough to show with pictures, but I consistently get an uneven wear pattern on the front and rear edges of my tires, that I will call "scalloping".
This is easier felt with a hand than seen with the eye, but it is manifested in each edge of the larger water sipes wearing higher and lower - each one alternately so, from the center of the tire to the edges.
I can hear and feel the tires rolling unevenly as it gets worse, with the tires making an audible "humming" sound when coming to a stop.  This uneven wear pattern is always more prevalent when riding two-up, or with a load on the back, or both.

Ive read somewhere before that this is caused by improper suspension setup, that causes the tire to make uneven contact with the road surface under compression (load). Sort of like "skipping or hopping" eradically and not making full road contact.
Knowing this, I have tried several different suspension settings over the past 3 sets of tires, with obviously no positive effects.

Let it be known, that I have never had my sag set properly.  I'm completely guessing at this, and going by what "feels" comfortable to me while riding at my typical pace, given road conditions and load on the bike.  I certainly don't feel any erratic undulations or vibrations in the suspension when riding at a spirited pace.

I can safely say, this wear pattern is highly exacerbated when I ride two up, or single with a full load of gear - call it 200lbs. extra plus my own 220lbs with gear on.
I will typically set the preload of the rear shock to FULL or thereabouts, and the damping to about half of full, which I think is about 3 "clicks".
Front forks were 2 lines showing, with damping about 3/4 to full out....about 9-10 clicks, i think.
FULL STOCK ORIGINAL suspension.  22k, never serviced.
And to be fair - even my second set of tires"scalloped" in the same way (michelins) when the bike was still new (under 10k miles).
I tend to run stock pressures (42/42) during solo riding, with suspension set to middle of the road settings.
With rider or load, ill run (44 or 45 psi).

Aside from getting the sag set with the help of someone else, does anybody have any thoughts on how or why this is happening?  A good racer can look a tire wear, and know EXACTLY where to tweak his suspension settings....I have never been blessed with this knowledge or gift!


Any advice is welcomed.

gr
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Offline smithr1

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2018, 04:07:45 pm »
Question?
Do you regularly still have the front break on as you go around tight corners or are you fully off the brake and starting to load the suspension with throttle?

I had bad front scalloping until I did two things.   Keep your pressures high.  42+ and do not carry braking into the lean.  The back will also scallop if the pressure to low for the load.  Not much you can do if the back flattens its profile from to much hwy.  Just have to ride harder in the corners or re-profile the tire which in my mind is a waist.
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Offline Syxxphive

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2018, 06:20:45 pm »
Honestly it’s most likely your suspension. Comes from the factory setup for a 145# ish rider. Look up the motool slacker. It’s a one man sag scale.

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2018, 07:22:16 pm »
After 10 years of adjusting and readjusting my suspensions characteristics to accommodate riding single, two up, a with a trailer in tow, I've settled on the fact the suspension doesn't really come into play as the cause for this odd wear you see..
And all of the tires I have replaced did actually exhibit the exact odd wear pattern you describe, the OEM Stones, the PR, PR2, and PR3, all eventually had this issue,
I believe it can be traced to the means of manufacture on all of them, as they all began using "dual compound" treads, where the center was a bit harder and more wear resistant, and anything wider than the 2" center of the tire began to do that scallop on the leading edges of the large tread sipe slits... I think the PR3 almost overcame that issue, but rell short, even tho they added some small siping slots with recesses in strategic spots, to allow the large block portions of the tread to flex a bit more. I also found the sets used for more longer freeway rides seemed most prone to the wear, even tho I playyed with pressures up to #45 on ea, and settle on #43 most of the time...

I feel your pain, and know they all ended up looking like the rubber was "smeared" and displaced, raising the trailing edge of the slots...while the adjacent leading edge of the same slot was worn 2x lower...
My only explanation is rubber compounds on all of them.
 >:( >:(

This picture begins to give my reasoning for some of this odd wear...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 07:44:21 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2018, 07:33:02 pm »
On my Kawasaki's  (C10 and C14) I always had major scalloping front and back.
Only when I fixed/replaced my suspension did it go away and only then.
If you go to a track day or show a suspension person those tires they will tell you right away that it is the  shock valving resulting in poor damping.
Just my experience.. others may have a different opinion and it is not tire pressure.
I have Ohlins and AK20's and I  never run 42psi -- more like 38 -cuz I like sticky tires with a bigger contact patch- and I do not scallop. PR3 and PR4-GT's are my favorite. Right now I have super soft Pirelli Diable Corsa's. Dam they grip well and wear out really quick.
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 07:35:54 pm »
I agree with Bob here. I got the same scalliping this past weekend on nearly new Michelin Pilot Power 2 tires. I was told the same thing by another rider, that it was from using too much braking in the corners. That is a bad habit that I have to break. Of course ow8ng down in the straight always might help in my case.
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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2018, 07:48:07 pm »
Now I'm really depressed.... :'(
I'm depressed because I paid $14k for a bike that came with such a horrible suspension, that if I want to get 6k miles out of a $200 tire, I have to spend $2000 for an aftermarket suspension... as that is the reason my tires wear out..
 >:( >:(

I can't afford that... :rotflmao:

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Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2018, 11:36:11 pm »
I have always run the Michelin Pilot Road 3’s and more so the 4’s after the OEM Bridgestones gave out quickly.  All of them scollopped or cupped as described. The PR 4’s did have less cupping after I installed the Traxxion AK20’s and Penske Rear, but still cupped to some degree. I still have the tires and it’s easy to compare.

My thoughts on why tires cup is something I read once that makes sense. An un-siped tire or tire without the grooves will not cup. The cupping originates at each tire snipe or groove. Take one of those Eberhard Faber #100 Pink Pearl Erasers we all had in school. Hold it perfectly vertical and continue to run or erase in the same direction. The leading edge will wear down faster and the end of the eraser will no longer be flat. I think the same thing happens to the motorcycle tires as they get forces and friction while turning. The dual compounds also contribute to some weird wear patterns. My theory, so if anyone agrees or disagrees, let me know.  ::)
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2018, 12:57:55 am »
Good input from everyone, thank you!

I had planned on upgrading the suspension this year, but it got put on hold.

At the very least, it does need to get serviced by the end of the riding season - and may just get overhauled and upgraded then.

Oh, and to answer a previous question: i do NOT trailbrake, nor do I hold the brakes through a turn. I always throttle through a turn.  Anymore, i don't even use the rear brake!!

Dammit, this almost makes me NOT want to buy new tires until I get the suspension sorted out!  >:(




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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2018, 12:36:47 pm »
This is Jedi-Tire Wear analysis, and suspension set-up by one of the best guys in the business, Dave Moss.

I've tried watching and learning from him before, but it's just WAY over my head.

But you can see in some instances (mostly on-track) how suspension set-up effects tire wear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLbxcYVEPYc

To me, to get a real idea of settings and how to correct these uneven wear issues, would be to visit a pro.
Set up sag, get baseline readings, and settings, refresh fork/shock oils, and make sure Springs were all appropriately sized for the rider/passenger weights.

The more I read, the more I know I need to get my suspension upgraded, as I'm CERTAIN the springs on the OEM forks and shock are both too flimsy for my weight, especially when carrying gear or a passenger.
This is when I see the most scalloping develop on tires (with a load).

*Further to this, I've done a bit of research, and although I'd prefer not to spend the big bucks on a Ohlins rear shock, it would appear that the Penske does NOT offer a remote preload adjustment system similar to OEM.

For me, riding solo most often, but carrying a load AND passenger periodically - I'd ideally have THREE suspension settings.
And using a wrench to adjust for those settings, to me, is tedious.  I'd want that ease of accessibility and convenience of the remotre preload adjuster mounted outboard of the shock itself. 
My 2c.

There went THAT tax return!!  :-[

gr
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Offline KnoxSwift

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 02:55:27 pm »
See this Article *Website* about cupping:
http://www.rattlebars.com/tirewear/index.html

Maybe over thinking wear? I live in the mountains and I burn through tires quickly and see what this site describes. However if I do some cross country rides I never see this type of where. I think it's part of hard riding through twists maybe?

Offline 4Bikes

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2018, 04:36:37 pm »
Thanks for the link.  :great: This blurb about cupping  is on the same page with what I said above....

I next tell people they can demonstrate to themselves what's happening by taking a new pencil with an unused eraser on the end and while holding the pencil perfectly vertical, push down and drag the eraser on a rough surface in one direction.  Then I tell them to look at the eraser and note that all the wear is on the leading edge and not evenly distributed across the end surface of the eraser.  It seems to make the concept easier for many to understand.
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2018, 05:31:42 pm »
Ive seen that site before, and no offense intended, but it is LOADED with contradictory information.

The section on cupping vs. scalloping alone is spelled out as a contradiction in itself!  :-[

Nevermind that....I think it's kind of obvious no matter what the source or description, most proper tire life and performance depends largely on suspension setup and attention to maintenance of all of the inter-related systems on the bike.

It really IS something of a "black-art" and given the number of years I've been riding, I still haven't even scratched the surface of understanding it, let alone mastering it -- like SO many other things!  :motonoises:

good discussions, and thank you for the input!

gr
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:12:22 am by ghostrider990 »
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Offline Syxxphive

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2018, 05:55:49 pm »

*Further to this, I've done a bit of research, and although I'd prefer not to spend the big bucks on a Ohlins rear shock, it would appear that the Penske does NOT offer a remote preload adjustment system similar to OEM.

For me, riding solo most often, but carrying a load AND passenger periodically - I'd ideally have THREE suspension settings.
And using a wrench to adjust for those settings, to me, is tedious.  I'd want that ease of accessibility and convenience of the remotre preload adjuster mounted outboard of the shock itself. 
My 2c.


gr

The Penske 8983 has remote adjustability. Looks like it has a thumbp screw. There’s several members here who have used it.

Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2018, 01:09:57 am »

*Further to this, I've done a bit of research, and although I'd prefer not to spend the big bucks on a Ohlins rear shock, it would appear that the Penske does NOT offer a remote preload adjustment system similar to OEM.

For me, riding solo most often, but carrying a load AND passenger periodically - I'd ideally have THREE suspension settings.
And using a wrench to adjust for those settings, to me, is tedious.  I'd want that ease of accessibility and convenience of the remotre preload adjuster mounted outboard of the shock itself. 
My 2c.

gr

The Penske 8983 has remote adjustability. Looks like it has a thumbp screw. There’s several members here who have used it.

Respectifully, I think you're wrong.  Remote adjustability for Rebound and Compression settings, not PRELOAD.

From Penske's website:

8983

Penske Racing Shocks announces the new 8300 Series – Remote Reservoir Damper. Based on the ever popular and highly successful 8100 series, the 8300 provides new dimensions of adjustability and versatility to the professional racer and the high-end aftermarket customer. Its modular design allows the use of piggybacks where remote versions are not desirable or feasible. The New compression adjuster features a new adjustable parabolic needle bleed bypass of a conventional shim stack and piston carried over from the 8700 series dampers. This results in 16 clicks of adjustment with enhanced linear steps between settings. As the latest offering from Penske Racing Shocks, the new 8300 Series damper sets the standard in entry-level, double-adjustable shock absorbers in terms of performance, quality, and value.

8987:

The 8987 Triple Remote Reservoir style damper gives you preload, ride height, rebound and High/Low Speed Compression. When comparing the 8983 and the 8987 the difference is in the reservoirs, where compression damping adjustment takes place. The compression adjuster on the 8983 is a high speed compression adjuster. High speed refers to the velocity of the wheel moving up and down, not how fast the bike is moving around the track. To clarify, low speed compression is “firmness” or “feel”. High speed compression is “bumps”. So what does all of this mean in the real world? With ordinary racing shocks, you have to use the compression adjuster to make the bike feel firm. This works acceptably at smooth racetracks. The problems arise when you get to a bumpy track. In order to get the shock to soak bumps, you have to soften the compression damping. The result is a bike that soaks bumps, but some squat will result under acceleration. You need to be able to “dial in low speed compression” to restore chassis feel, but you won’t be able to since you only have a high-speed adjuster. You are forced to compromise. This is where the triple-adjustable Penske becomes a critical component for professional racers. You are able to adjust for bumps and feel independently, and there is no compromise. The most interesting effect of this shock is that once your bike is set up to have a firm feel and be compliant over bumps, you will be able to return a smooth track and change little or nothing. The bike will not need to soak as many bumps, and it will still feel firm. It is state-of-the-art!

NO MENTION OF HYDRAULIC REMOTE PRELOAD ADJUSTABILITY.
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Offline Syxxphive

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2018, 01:52:09 am »
Didn’t realize you meant preload adjustability. My bad. Is the Ohlins adjustable in that regard the same way stock is?

Offline Deepsea

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2018, 03:46:36 am »
Yes, the Ohlins has a remote preload adjuster just like the OEM shock. I have both the Ohlins shock and Ohlins ZX14 forks installed on my 09 C14. They did cost $$$$ but I'm very happy with the performance and would buy them again. If you're Really serious about riding in the twisties then raising the rear by changing the links helps a lot. I installed shorter ones and raised the rear by 44mm.
  I use the Dunlop Q3+ tires and have not had any wear issues since changing the suspension :great: [size=78%].[/size]
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 08:15:13 pm by Deepsea »
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2018, 02:07:41 pm »
Good info on the Ohlins.

Thanks.  :great:

gr
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Offline AmphibSailor

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2018, 06:20:08 pm »
Honestly it’s most likely your suspension. Comes from the factory setup for a 145# ish rider. Look up the motool slacker. It’s a one man sag scale.

Kind of expensive, but if you don't have the help this is probably the cat's meow.  Any experience with it?  If so, think about doing a review on it in a different thread.  I'd like to hear more about it. :great:   :motonoises:
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Offline Syxxphive

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2018, 07:40:08 pm »
Honestly it’s most likely your suspension. Comes from the factory setup for a 145# ish rider. Look up the motool slacker. It’s a one man sag scale.

Kind of expensive, but if you don't have the help this is probably the cat's meow.  Any experience with it?  If so, think about doing a review on it in a different thread.  I'd like to hear more about it. :great:   :motonoises:
I’m hoping to soon. Dave moss did a review of it.
https://youtu.be/obGoMPgiI18

Offline Deepsea

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2018, 08:18:34 pm »
I have the Motool Slacker. I'll get it out in the morning and do a review.
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Offline ghostrider990

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2018, 12:38:24 am »
I have the Motool Slacker. I'll get it out in the morning and do a review.

Good Onya!  :beerchug:
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Offline AmphibSailor

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2018, 03:59:20 am »
I have the Motool Slacker. I'll get it out in the morning and do a review.
Great!  I'll be looking for it.

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Offline AmphibSailor

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2018, 04:03:42 am »
Honestly it’s most likely your suspension. Comes from the factory setup for a 145# ish rider. Look up the motool slacker. It’s a one man sag scale.

Kind of expensive, but if you don't have the help this is probably the cat's meow.  Any experience with it?  If so, think about doing a review on it in a different thread.  I'd like to hear more about it. :great:   :motonoises:
I’m hoping to soon. Dave moss did a review of it.
https://youtu.be/obGoMPgiI18


Thanks!
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Offline Colt45

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Re: Uneven Tire Wear: Need Help
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2018, 02:00:38 pm »
Not the suspension.

Looking at the top of the tire, if the rear edge of the tread block on the front is higher, you are braking in a turn.  Must be done sometimes, but should not be done always. 

If the rear is higher on the rear tread block you are accelerating hard out of a turn, not so bad, but try to roll into the throttle as you roll up from the lean so you are accelerating most when nearly upright. 

If the rear is higher on the front of the tread block, you are using engine braking/rear brake while leaned over.  Again, not too bad on technique (engine braking, that is), but try slowing more while mostly vertical and cornering under very light accelerating (unloads the suspension so it can absorb bumps better). 

ON THE STREET, really good technique rarely uses the brakes because your speed is such that a little engine braking slows you enough to easily make the turn.  And that rhythm is addictive! 
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