Author Topic: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)  (Read 5607 times)

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2017, 10:05:17 pm »
Valid points.  But these axles are not at extreme torques.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2017, 10:12:22 pm »
Valid points.  But these axles are not at extreme torques.

Correct, and I wasn't directing my advice as to that big hex on the axle, I was directing it to all the other fasteners on the bike, like the ones on the brake calipers, rotors, battry cover, plastic panels, frame stiffeners around the engine, handlebars, etc....

After hearing about how many people have stripped out those hexes in the last 9+ years, I felt it was valid to make people aware of the issue.

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Offline Old Man on a Connie

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2017, 11:21:41 pm »
Valid points.  But these axles are not at extreme torques.

Correct, and I wasn't directing my advice as to that big hex on the axle, I was directing it to all the other fasteners on the bike, like the ones on the brake calipers, rotors, battry cover, plastic panels, frame stiffeners around the engine, handlebars, etc....

After hearing about how many people have stripped out those hexes in the last 9+ years, I felt it was valid to make people aware of the issue.
Tis true. Just replaced my wind screen fasteners for the exact same reason.  :'( All my hex key's now have the MOB treatment.
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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2017, 01:02:16 am »
I twisted off a 6" 3/8 Craftsman extension using the spark plug method the first time I tried it. I then used a hex socket in the spark plu socket, but now own the "official" axel tool.
Silver 2011 C-14. Previous rides: KZ-400, KZ-750, KZ-1000.  Keep the rubber side down.  Ride Fast......Live Slow......

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2017, 05:18:25 am »
my axle tools are simple ones from McMaster Carr..
I purchased an "L" key, and cut a "stub" from the end of it, and use the stub, and the "L" with an 8" piece of pipe, as carry tools..
I also picked up a hexbit socket stub tool, for shop use..

https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-hex-l-keys/=16j5seu


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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2017, 06:03:52 am »
Don't forget guys, you can simply buy a single hex socket at sears for 10-15 bucks and be done with it.


I went to Northern tool and grabbed a full set of 7 sockets instead and got a nice set to keep in the tool box.


Made by Klutch and comes with a magnetic base to keep them tidy in the toolbox.
They also sell these at Harbor freight
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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2017, 12:23:54 am »
Don't forget guys, you can simply buy a single hex socket at sears for 10-15 bucks and be done with it.


I went to Northern tool and grabbed a full set of 7 sockets instead and got a nice set to keep in the tool box.


Made by Klutch and comes with a magnetic base to keep them tidy in the toolbox.
They also sell these at Harbor freight


Yeah I wouldn't be surprised.  The N/T Was half mile away so I went with them.

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2017, 12:32:09 pm »
Considering that 93 foot lbs of torque on the axel bolts is needed to hold everything together under load, I find it amazing that some of the Ducati’s have single swing arm designs. The amount of load that single attachment point receives while cornering must be enormous. That would need to be a beefy swing arm and must weigh a lot.
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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2017, 07:09:49 pm »
Considering that 93 foot lbs of torque on the axel bolts is needed to hold everything together under load, I find it amazing that some of the Ducati’s have single swing arm designs. The amount of load that single attachment point receives while cornering must be enormous. That would need to be a beefy swing arm and must weigh a lot.

True, but it helps if the bike doesn't weight 700 lbs. My Multistrada weighs 461 dry.
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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2017, 05:04:15 pm »
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2017, 05:38:14 pm »
I always use a torque wrench on suspension related nuts and bolts too.

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2017, 05:41:28 pm »
Torque specs on the axles aside, if properly assembled neither one can come loose while under way.  The front axle has pinch bolts at each end that hold the axle and prevent it from turning or loosening.  So unless both pinch bolts on one end fail or come loose, the front axle is going to stay fixed in place regardless of torque.

The rear axle has the cotter pin that will keep the nut from coming loose unless the cotter pin falls out or breaks.

So I am in favor of using the Kawasaki specified torque values as a starting point.  I prefer to use anti-seize compound on both the front and the rear to avoid the situation where corrosion makes the use of an impact wrench necessary.  I'd never use one to tighten but it's often quite helpful for loosening something that was tightened by a gorilla or locked into place by corrosion.  Impact often wins where no amount of hand-applied torque will loosen the fastener.  There is a sound scientific principle behind why impact does what it does where other methods often fail.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2017, 07:39:01 pm »
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

Well, when you do get around to removing the spacers on either a C14, or a C10, stick a magnet against them....
Until then, trust me when I say they are steel.... this ain't a KTM....

Ride safe.

30 YEARS OF KAW.....Rich R. (the other one..)  COG 5977  JUSTAMEMBAHNOW

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2017, 08:25:19 pm »
MOB, thanks for the info. Steel is good. I guess that a dirt bike (KTM) has weight issues, so they use aluminum. Just imagine the inner races being forces together, say .080". That's a lot of side loading of the bearings. Not good.

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2017, 04:56:10 pm »
MOB, thanks for the info. Steel is good. I guess that a dirt bike (KTM) has weight issues, so they use aluminum. Just imagine the inner races being forces together, say .080". That's a lot of side loading of the bearings. Not good.

It doesn't work that way.  See the diagram below that I captured from the FSM and color coded.  The GREEN shows the bearings themselves and you can see the inner races.  The YELLOW is the sleeve that fits inside the wheel between the bearings.  The BLUE is the axle itself and the PURPLE is the axle nut.  The RED shows the two spacers.

As you can see, regardless of how tight you make the axle nut, you're not going to put pressure on the bearings, just the STEEL inner races.  Since the axle and the axle nut are aluminum, there is absolutely no way you can tighten this assembly enough to crush the bearing inner races.  The aluminum will give way long before the steel does.

Bottom line is that the axle tension does NOT side-load the bearings in any way.  They are free to turn at all times.

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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2017, 09:52:08 pm »
MOB, thanks for the info. Steel is good. I guess that a dirt bike (KTM) has weight issues, so they use aluminum. Just imagine the inner races being forces together, say .080". That's a lot of side loading of the bearings. Not good.

It doesn't work that way.  See the diagram below that I captured from the FSM and color coded.  The GREEN shows the bearings themselves and you can see the inner races.  The YELLOW is the sleeve that fits inside the wheel between the bearings.  The BLUE is the axle itself and the PURPLE is the axle nut.  The RED shows the two spacers.

As you can see, regardless of how tight you make the axle nut, you're not going to put pressure on the bearings, just the STEEL inner races.  Since the axle and the axle nut are aluminum, there is absolutely no way you can tighten this assembly enough to crush the bearing inner races.  The aluminum will give way long before the steel does.

Bottom line is that the axle tension does NOT side-load the bearings in any way.  They are free to turn at all times.



While I agree on the fact you can't crush the spacer, and other things as noted, which I posted, I will say this....

Go stick a.magnet on the axle... and the nut....  :-X
Let's put it this way, the nut will strip first.....  and also the reason I cautioned about leaving the nut clamped up tight when loosening the axle....

Oh, the rear axle and nut, and spacer, are all steel ... :great:
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 09:55:24 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline smithr1

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2017, 03:15:37 pm »
The part in yellow is Aluminum though.  At least mine was.   

Over all I agree though.  May be better to loosen both the clamps and wrench hold both ends.
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Offline jwh20

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2017, 07:29:20 pm »
The part in yellow is Aluminum though.  At least mine was.   

Over all I agree though.  May be better to loosen both the clamps and wrench hold both ends.

I thought we were talking about the red parts, the spacers.  They are steel.  I've never had the spacer out of mine so I'm not really sure.  But even if it is aluminum, it will be in compression vs. the axle which will be under tension.  I think the threads on the axle or axle nut are the weakest link here and will give way before any of the other parts do.
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Offline jwh20

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2017, 11:09:47 pm »
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

Well, when you do get around to removing the spacers on either a C14, or a C10, stick a magnet against them....
Until then, trust me when I say they are steel.... this ain't a KTM....

Ride safe.

Challenge accepted.  I believe they are aluminum or some other alloy but they are definitely NOT steel and not magnetic.  Here are the two spacers off the front wheel of a 2009 Concours being tested with my handy telescopic magnet.  Just so you know I'm not faking it I use it to pickup my ratchet handle:

https://youtu.be/uDObyzXHGho
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2017, 12:17:57 am »
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

Well, when you do get around to removing the spacers on either a C14, or a C10, stick a magnet against them....
Until then, trust me when I say they are steel.... this ain't a KTM....

Ride safe.

Challenge accepted.  I believe they are aluminum or some other alloy but they are definitely NOT steel and not magnetic.  Here are the two spacers off the front wheel of a 2009 Concours being tested with my handy telescopic magnet.  Just so you know I'm not faking it I use it to pickup my ratchet handle:

https://youtu.be/uDObyzXHGho

Question for you;
What steel is not magnetic?
Matt
2015 C14  Poison Ivy. I feel the itch!
2014 KTM 690 Enduro R  Wheelie sweet!!

Offline jwh20

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2017, 12:40:53 am »
Quote
Question for you;
What steel is not magnetic?
Matt

Most stainless steel alloys are non-magnetic.  These are not steel though, they are too light.  I believe they are aluminum.
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Offline mattchewn

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2017, 12:54:28 am »
The spacers on the outside of the wheel are definitely not aluminum. Aluminum would be destroyed instantly by the smallest amount of grit getting on the lip of the dust seal. They are stainless or some variant of it. I have had to replace them after about 50K on one bike so far.
Matt
2015 C14  Poison Ivy. I feel the itch!
2014 KTM 690 Enduro R  Wheelie sweet!!

Offline jwh20

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2017, 01:08:11 am »
The spacers on the outside of the wheel are definitely not aluminum. Aluminum would be destroyed instantly by the smallest amount of grit getting on the lip of the dust seal. They are stainless or some variant of it. I have had to replace them after about 50K on one bike so far.
Matt

Feels like Aluminum to me but perhaps plated Aluminum.  The ones from this bike had the plating flaking off.  Note that the color under the plating is quite different.



They need to be replaced, but of course, the local dealer has none.  "We can order them for you" they say.
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Offline jwh20

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2017, 01:13:49 am »
Here is a close-up of the flaking.  It's clearly a coating or plating of some sort.  Different color and it flakes off.  Where is a metallurgist when you need one!  But remember the point was clearly made that these are magnetic.  They are not.



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Offline mattchewn

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Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2017, 01:18:03 am »
What year they off of?
The ones I replaced previously were off a '09 and did not have any flaking evidence and there was a deep groove worn into each one probably over .040 deep on each one. They were also quite heavy. This was last year when I replaced them. 

Matt
2015 C14  Poison Ivy. I feel the itch!
2014 KTM 690 Enduro R  Wheelie sweet!!