Concours Owners Group (COG) Forum

Concours 14 Discussion (C14 / ZG1400 / 1400GTR) => Tires/Suspension C14 => Topic started by: rrsperry on January 17, 2017, 01:08:50 am

Title: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: rrsperry on January 17, 2017, 01:08:50 am
Ok, what's with the 22mm hex required for the front bolt?  That sure looks like an answer to a question nobody was asking. So ok,  new tool ordered.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on January 17, 2017, 10:34:47 am
My guess is that it has to do with structural engineering and strength to support a 900LB gross motorcycle weight rating.




( I think the book says somewhere that anyway )





Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: rrsperry on January 17, 2017, 11:11:14 am
I must be one stupid mechanical engineer then...  The nut doesn't do anything other than clamp.


Anyway, why wouldn't they at least give you something in the tool kit?
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on January 17, 2017, 12:51:48 pm
Cost and weight savings.  We are lucky we get what we get. 
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: turbojoe78_MA on January 17, 2017, 02:38:26 pm
I found a bolt with a 7/8" head on it, (5/8" I think) then found a nut that fit the bolt and welded the nut on.

The 7/8" bolt head fit right into the 22mm hex on the axle and then you just use your choice of tools on the welded on nut.

I'll try to post a picture later.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: CW on January 17, 2017, 02:40:17 pm
Spark plug socket turned backwards work?
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: rrsperry on January 17, 2017, 02:48:57 pm
It's not a problem, but I've already got a metric crap ton of metric sockets...lol

I bought a ProMotion combo hex thing on Amazon, be here in the AM.. $18. No worries, I just tell the wife it's for a tool. She never argues with me on tools. (In fact she usually says, "if you want it go buy it"). It worked for the 2016 Corvette, and the Connie...

But really a 24mm nut would have killed them?  ;lol
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: AmphibSailor on January 17, 2017, 03:00:30 pm
Spark plug socket turned backwards work?

Worked for me.


Try using the socket wrench and extension from the other side of the wheel.  Feed the extension through the axle to the socket.
 

If you have to use two extensions, feed the longest one through the other side and the other one from the socket side.  Try it.  You'll see that it works.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: smithr1 on January 17, 2017, 05:04:02 pm
Spark plug wrench back worked for me just this weekend.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: gpd323 on January 18, 2017, 02:46:14 pm
Spark plug socket turned backwards work?

Yes the peanut spark plug socket, then stick a short extension inside the socket and attach a ratchet. You don't have to loosen the left side pinch bolts either, just unscrew the axle from the right side (right pinch bolts loose of course) and then remove the axle. Easy!
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: rrsperry on January 18, 2017, 06:25:14 pm
Well i didn't have any spark plug sockets that would fit. So I just ordered the combo tool.

Changed the stock rear BT021 out for an Angel GT A spec, installed the Vance and Hines CS ONE exhaust. Tomorrow the front tire, and fender extender. (assuming I get the combo tool today like Amazon promises..lol)

Is it spring yet?
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: rrsperry on January 19, 2017, 09:18:48 pm
Ok, took off the wheel, changed the crap 021's for Angel GT's.   Back together.

Ok, those engineers should be flogged. The only good thing I can say is it's pretty easy to remove and install the brake calipers.

But the axel and "nut"? Are other Japanese bikes like that? I don't remember my VFR being so bad...
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: seagiant1 on January 20, 2017, 03:00:41 am
Hi,
       I had a spark plug socket that worked already in my tool box! ;D

You're going to LOVE those Angels!!! :great: >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: gsun on January 20, 2017, 03:24:10 am
I used a spark plug wrench the first time and then went to the "special" tool. It broke the second time I used it. It was aluminum. Went back to the spark plug tool. Works great!
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: rrsperry on January 21, 2017, 08:36:33 pm
That's why I got the tool steel one.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: smithr1 on January 23, 2017, 05:24:04 pm
I got the spark plug wrench and used it. 
I was then digging through all the stuff I bought last summer for the winter rebuild/maintenance and there was the special tool.  I must have bought it and forgot.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Steiny on February 18, 2017, 10:37:26 am
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181857883730?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181857883730?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true)



 just but this for 10 bucks
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Buzzard on February 18, 2017, 03:07:48 pm
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 18, 2017, 10:24:36 pm
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Gixerhp on February 22, 2017, 07:51:48 pm
Ok, what's with the 22mm hex required for the front bolt?  That sure looks like an answer to a question nobody was asking. So ok,  new tool ordered.
They are just trying to sell Snap on tools!
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: gpd323 on February 25, 2017, 09:24:07 pm
I think I said a peanut spark plug socket would work, its actually the standard sized plug socket.  :beerchug:

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/gpd323/20170225_141454_zpskinxebwa.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/gpd323/media/20170225_141454_zpskinxebwa.jpg.html)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/gpd323/20170225_141520_zps44qh4sua.jpg) (http://s146.photobucket.com/user/gpd323/media/20170225_141520_zps44qh4sua.jpg.html)
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on February 26, 2017, 12:04:46 pm
Don't forget guys, you can simply buy a single hex socket at sears for 10-15 bucks and be done with it.


I went to Northern tool and grabbed a full set of 7 sockets instead and got a nice set to keep in the tool box.


Made by Klutch and comes with a magnetic base to keep them tidy in the toolbox.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: mattchewn on February 26, 2017, 01:03:34 pm
so,
Does this mean we are over complaining about KiPass?    :??:    :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:       

Matt
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on February 26, 2017, 01:04:54 pm
so,
Does this mean we are over complaining about KiPass?    :??:    :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:       

Matt


So far I have reserved my comments about that, but yes.  Way too much bishen about that.  Get over it.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 26, 2017, 10:00:59 pm
Don't forget guys, you can simply buy a single hex socket at sears for 10-15 bucks and be done with it.


I went to Northern tool and grabbed a full set of 7 sockets instead and got a nice set to keep in the tool box.


Made by Klutch and comes with a magnetic base to keep them tidy in the toolbox.

I'm all for good tools, but namebrand means nothing.... take for example those "nice" hex bits in your photo....
They may LOOK pretty, but in fact they have the major flaw I see on all of the bits sold today, when you want to use them on the Cheese steel bolts of a C14...
Look closely at how they turned a good tool, into one guranteed to round out the internal hex on the bolts, due to the massive chamfers they added to the ends of the bits... rendering them useless for getting full bite on the total depth of the socket head....

 :truce: :-X :truce: :??:

Now, take those bits to your belt sander, or bench grinder, and completely dress the ends of perpendicular to the bit, removing all the stock to get back to a point where the hex is fully hex, and the chambers are completely gone.... and you have a full hex with sharp corners that fully engage the total depth of the screws socket to prevent them from stripping out....

 :great: :great:

I've ground every hex bit I own in this manner, as one by one they all caused grief from lack of full engagement...
And NEVER use ball end hex tools to "break a bolt free", only use them to spin a loosened bolt....
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on February 26, 2017, 10:05:17 pm
Valid points.  But these axles are not at extreme torques.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 26, 2017, 10:12:22 pm
Valid points.  But these axles are not at extreme torques.

Correct, and I wasn't directing my advice as to that big hex on the axle, I was directing it to all the other fasteners on the bike, like the ones on the brake calipers, rotors, battry cover, plastic panels, frame stiffeners around the engine, handlebars, etc....

After hearing about how many people have stripped out those hexes in the last 9+ years, I felt it was valid to make people aware of the issue.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Old Man on a Connie on February 26, 2017, 11:21:41 pm
Valid points.  But these axles are not at extreme torques.

Correct, and I wasn't directing my advice as to that big hex on the axle, I was directing it to all the other fasteners on the bike, like the ones on the brake calipers, rotors, battry cover, plastic panels, frame stiffeners around the engine, handlebars, etc....

After hearing about how many people have stripped out those hexes in the last 9+ years, I felt it was valid to make people aware of the issue.
Tis true. Just replaced my wind screen fasteners for the exact same reason.  :'( All my hex key's now have the MOB treatment.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: 4Bikes on February 27, 2017, 01:02:16 am
I twisted off a 6" 3/8 Craftsman extension using the spark plug method the first time I tried it. I then used a hex socket in the spark plu socket, but now own the "official" axel tool.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on February 27, 2017, 05:18:25 am
my axle tools are simple ones from McMaster Carr..
I purchased an "L" key, and cut a "stub" from the end of it, and use the stub, and the "L" with an 8" piece of pipe, as carry tools..
I also picked up a hexbit socket stub tool, for shop use..

https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-hex-l-keys/=16j5seu (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-hex-l-keys/=16j5seu)

Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Bruiser on March 04, 2017, 06:03:52 am
Don't forget guys, you can simply buy a single hex socket at sears for 10-15 bucks and be done with it.


I went to Northern tool and grabbed a full set of 7 sockets instead and got a nice set to keep in the tool box.


Made by Klutch and comes with a magnetic base to keep them tidy in the toolbox.
They also sell these at Harbor freight
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on March 05, 2017, 12:23:54 am
Don't forget guys, you can simply buy a single hex socket at sears for 10-15 bucks and be done with it.


I went to Northern tool and grabbed a full set of 7 sockets instead and got a nice set to keep in the tool box.


Made by Klutch and comes with a magnetic base to keep them tidy in the toolbox.
They also sell these at Harbor freight


Yeah I wouldn't be surprised.  The N/T Was half mile away so I went with them.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: 4Bikes on March 05, 2017, 12:32:09 pm
Considering that 93 foot lbs of torque on the axel bolts is needed to hold everything together under load, I find it amazing that some of the Ducati’s have single swing arm designs. The amount of load that single attachment point receives while cornering must be enormous. That would need to be a beefy swing arm and must weigh a lot.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Steve_Reinschmidt_CO on March 07, 2017, 07:09:49 pm
Considering that 93 foot lbs of torque on the axel bolts is needed to hold everything together under load, I find it amazing that some of the Ducati’s have single swing arm designs. The amount of load that single attachment point receives while cornering must be enormous. That would need to be a beefy swing arm and must weigh a lot.

True, but it helps if the bike doesn't weight 700 lbs. My Multistrada weighs 461 dry.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Buzzard on March 13, 2017, 05:04:15 pm
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JTX on March 13, 2017, 05:38:14 pm
I always use a torque wrench on suspension related nuts and bolts too.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 13, 2017, 05:41:28 pm
Torque specs on the axles aside, if properly assembled neither one can come loose while under way.  The front axle has pinch bolts at each end that hold the axle and prevent it from turning or loosening.  So unless both pinch bolts on one end fail or come loose, the front axle is going to stay fixed in place regardless of torque.

The rear axle has the cotter pin that will keep the nut from coming loose unless the cotter pin falls out or breaks.

So I am in favor of using the Kawasaki specified torque values as a starting point.  I prefer to use anti-seize compound on both the front and the rear to avoid the situation where corrosion makes the use of an impact wrench necessary.  I'd never use one to tighten but it's often quite helpful for loosening something that was tightened by a gorilla or locked into place by corrosion.  Impact often wins where no amount of hand-applied torque will loosen the fastener.  There is a sound scientific principle behind why impact does what it does where other methods often fail.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 13, 2017, 07:39:01 pm
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

Well, when you do get around to removing the spacers on either a C14, or a C10, stick a magnet against them....
Until then, trust me when I say they are steel.... this ain't a KTM....

Ride safe.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Buzzard on March 14, 2017, 08:25:19 pm
MOB, thanks for the info. Steel is good. I guess that a dirt bike (KTM) has weight issues, so they use aluminum. Just imagine the inner races being forces together, say .080". That's a lot of side loading of the bearings. Not good.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 15, 2017, 04:56:10 pm
MOB, thanks for the info. Steel is good. I guess that a dirt bike (KTM) has weight issues, so they use aluminum. Just imagine the inner races being forces together, say .080". That's a lot of side loading of the bearings. Not good.

It doesn't work that way.  See the diagram below that I captured from the FSM and color coded.  The GREEN shows the bearings themselves and you can see the inner races.  The YELLOW is the sleeve that fits inside the wheel between the bearings.  The BLUE is the axle itself and the PURPLE is the axle nut.  The RED shows the two spacers.

As you can see, regardless of how tight you make the axle nut, you're not going to put pressure on the bearings, just the STEEL inner races.  Since the axle and the axle nut are aluminum, there is absolutely no way you can tighten this assembly enough to crush the bearing inner races.  The aluminum will give way long before the steel does.

Bottom line is that the axle tension does NOT side-load the bearings in any way.  They are free to turn at all times.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/jwhance/C14/c14_front_axle.jpg)
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on March 15, 2017, 09:52:08 pm
MOB, thanks for the info. Steel is good. I guess that a dirt bike (KTM) has weight issues, so they use aluminum. Just imagine the inner races being forces together, say .080". That's a lot of side loading of the bearings. Not good.

It doesn't work that way.  See the diagram below that I captured from the FSM and color coded.  The GREEN shows the bearings themselves and you can see the inner races.  The YELLOW is the sleeve that fits inside the wheel between the bearings.  The BLUE is the axle itself and the PURPLE is the axle nut.  The RED shows the two spacers.

As you can see, regardless of how tight you make the axle nut, you're not going to put pressure on the bearings, just the STEEL inner races.  Since the axle and the axle nut are aluminum, there is absolutely no way you can tighten this assembly enough to crush the bearing inner races.  The aluminum will give way long before the steel does.

Bottom line is that the axle tension does NOT side-load the bearings in any way.  They are free to turn at all times.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/jwhance/C14/c14_front_axle.jpg)

While I agree on the fact you can't crush the spacer, and other things as noted, which I posted, I will say this....

Go stick a.magnet on the axle... and the nut....  :-X
Let's put it this way, the nut will strip first.....  and also the reason I cautioned about leaving the nut clamped up tight when loosening the axle....

Oh, the rear axle and nut, and spacer, are all steel ... :great:
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: smithr1 on March 16, 2017, 03:15:37 pm
The part in yellow is Aluminum though.  At least mine was.   

Over all I agree though.  May be better to loosen both the clamps and wrench hold both ends.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 16, 2017, 07:29:20 pm
The part in yellow is Aluminum though.  At least mine was.   

Over all I agree though.  May be better to loosen both the clamps and wrench hold both ends.

I thought we were talking about the red parts, the spacers.  They are steel.  I've never had the spacer out of mine so I'm not really sure.  But even if it is aluminum, it will be in compression vs. the axle which will be under tension.  I think the threads on the axle or axle nut are the weakest link here and will give way before any of the other parts do.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 24, 2017, 11:09:47 pm
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

Well, when you do get around to removing the spacers on either a C14, or a C10, stick a magnet against them....
Until then, trust me when I say they are steel.... this ain't a KTM....

Ride safe.

Challenge accepted.  I believe they are aluminum or some other alloy but they are definitely NOT steel and not magnetic.  Here are the two spacers off the front wheel of a 2009 Concours being tested with my handy telescopic magnet.  Just so you know I'm not faking it I use it to pickup my ratchet handle:

https://youtu.be/uDObyzXHGho (https://youtu.be/uDObyzXHGho)
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: mattchewn on March 25, 2017, 12:17:57 am
I'm sure most of you know this, but it is a good time to review. There is a precision cut piece of metal tubing between the wheel bearings. The purpose of this tube is to keep the distance between the inner bearing races constant and correct. Over torquing the axle bolt can literally squash this tube, shortening it, resulting in stressed bearings. Most motorcycles have this set up in both wheels. I have seen a local shop use an air wrench to tighten the front axle of my friends FJR1300. I had to use an air wrench on my axle tool to loosen it. Bad.
Thank you for sharing this, and it is used as a spacer, but some of your fears are a bit incorrect,
Using an air wrench on the axle nut is over kill, for sure, I would never use a tool for install that would prevent me from disassembling the parts on the road, using normally carried hand tools.
As far as "crushing" that tubular spacer, its simply not possible to do from tightening the axle nut, no matter what tools are used, the compressive strength of that tube is about 50x stronger than any force that could be generated by the mechanical force induced by the threafs on both the axle and nut....the threads would strip well prior to crushing the tube...
As for overtightening also, please note that each bore that the bearings are seated in, have an internal lip at their base, preventing over insertion... the bearings outer race will go solid against one during install, and when the second bearing is installed on the far side, it should only be tapped in untill it "bumps" the spacer tube, and you install the circlips that retain the bearings.

I hope this simplifies the assembly a bit, for those not familiar with the design elements.

I find the torque spec on the axles, both front and rear, to be somewhat excessive, but due to liability concerns of the manufacturer, they state them as "designed loading".
I've never had issue loading the axles on any bike using a 1/2" drive wratchet wrench, and a breaker bar on the opposite side, you can generate a lot of torque with those tools, more than enough to work correctly...
I also find that the suggestion of leaving the pinch bolts on the nut side of the forks tight, to hold the nut, so you can loosen the axle bolt, puts excessive wear on the actual threads of both the nut, and the axle, as the nut is now "clamped tight" and compressed slightly... If you only have one wrench, you can leave the pinch bolts.on the head of the axle tight to hold it,nwhile removing the nut on the far end.. I lube the axle threads with anti sieze, and coat the shaft with grease, and tighten the axle and nut prior to clamping the ends tight, and that is only after spinning the wheel and clamping the brakes on a dozen times to centralize the wheel between the forks...

These are lessons gleaned from 45 years of fixing bikes, with issues that were egsacerbated by incorrect procedures.
I will argue this point, from experience. I have not had the wheel bearings out of my C14, but have done many in other bikes, dirt bikes most often. These spacers are most often aluminum, and I have had to replace several due to deformation (shortening) of this spacer. If the one in a C14 is stainless steel, OK, tighten the living crap out of it. The axle is tightened about the inner races of the wheel bearing. The outer races are staid in the wheel by a boss on one side, a circlip or other keeper on the other. The inner race is located by the axle or wheel spacer on one side, the inner spacer on the other. I know from experience that I can ruin the spacer in the rear wheel of my KTM with a half inch drive socket and ratchet. Too much torque on the tightening of the axle is not a good thing. Keeping it within factory specs is safe.

Well, when you do get around to removing the spacers on either a C14, or a C10, stick a magnet against them....
Until then, trust me when I say they are steel.... this ain't a KTM....

Ride safe.

Challenge accepted.  I believe they are aluminum or some other alloy but they are definitely NOT steel and not magnetic.  Here are the two spacers off the front wheel of a 2009 Concours being tested with my handy telescopic magnet.  Just so you know I'm not faking it I use it to pickup my ratchet handle:

https://youtu.be/uDObyzXHGho (https://youtu.be/uDObyzXHGho)
Question for you;
What steel is not magnetic?
Matt
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 25, 2017, 12:40:53 am
Quote
Question for you;
What steel is not magnetic?
Matt

Most stainless steel alloys are non-magnetic.  These are not steel though, they are too light.  I believe they are aluminum.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: mattchewn on March 25, 2017, 12:54:28 am
The spacers on the outside of the wheel are definitely not aluminum. Aluminum would be destroyed instantly by the smallest amount of grit getting on the lip of the dust seal. They are stainless or some variant of it. I have had to replace them after about 50K on one bike so far.
Matt
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 25, 2017, 01:08:11 am
The spacers on the outside of the wheel are definitely not aluminum. Aluminum would be destroyed instantly by the smallest amount of grit getting on the lip of the dust seal. They are stainless or some variant of it. I have had to replace them after about 50K on one bike so far.
Matt

Feels like Aluminum to me but perhaps plated Aluminum.  The ones from this bike had the plating flaking off.  Note that the color under the plating is quite different.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/jwhance/C14/front_axle_spacers.jpg)

They need to be replaced, but of course, the local dealer has none.  "We can order them for you" they say.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 25, 2017, 01:13:49 am
Here is a close-up of the flaking.  It's clearly a coating or plating of some sort.  Different color and it flakes off.  Where is a metallurgist when you need one!  But remember the point was clearly made that these are magnetic.  They are not.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/jwhance/C14/flaking_close_up.jpg)

Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: mattchewn on March 25, 2017, 01:18:03 am
What year they off of?
The ones I replaced previously were off a '09 and did not have any flaking evidence and there was a deep groove worn into each one probably over .040 deep on each one. They were also quite heavy. This was last year when I replaced them. 

Matt
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: jwh20 on March 25, 2017, 01:19:35 am
What year they off of?
The ones I replaced previously were off a '09 and did not have any flaking evidence and there was a deep groove worn into each one probably over .040 deep on each one. They were also quite heavy. This was last year when I replaced them. 

Matt

2009 with 26,000 miles.  I suppose it's possible that there is more than one type used.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: roy826 on June 23, 2017, 05:45:47 pm
Motion Pro  ;D
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: cappyg on June 28, 2017, 11:19:38 am
400 series stainless steel is non-magnetic.  WE use it at work for that purpose.  Most softer steels and aluminum used for rubbing seal journals are typically hard coated (aluminum anodized) or ceramic spray coated and ground to size.  I would suspect if the spacers are aluminum or dead soft they were treated with a hard coating of some sort.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Bruiser on August 14, 2017, 08:12:49 pm
Yep, the size is a dilemma fer sure. I got the hex tool offered on ebay a few years ago, and use it on the left as you are looking at the bike, loosen those clamp bolts, and keep the double clamp bolts tight on the right. works every time.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: OKC14 on August 16, 2017, 07:31:56 pm
Spark plug socket for the win. $5
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: JDSCO on August 16, 2017, 08:14:01 pm
It's called a coupling nut
5/8-11 coupling nut specifically
available in steel or stainless 18-8
5/8-11 internal thread and 7/8 hex x 2" length
7/8=.875
22mm=.866
works great, fits the axle nicely and it's very affordable
Under $3.00 US at Ace Hardware or True Value or your participating hardware store
buy an extra for your friends

I installed mine in a 1/2" drive 22mm socket as shown
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: MAN OF BLUES on August 16, 2017, 08:22:21 pm
It's called a coupling nut
5/8-11 coupling nut specifically
available in steel or stainless 18-8
5/8-11 internal thread and 7/8 hex x 2" length
7/8=.875
22mm=.866
works great and it's very affordable
Under $3.00 US at Ace Hardware or True Value or your participating hardware store
buy an extra for your friends

I installed mine in a 1/2" drive 22mm socket as shown


 :beerchug: :beerchug: :great: :great: :great:

WINNER, WINNER, ..CHICKEN DINNER......SWEET.

dummy me.. and after all the years I told people how the make the "custom" wrench out of nuts, washers, and all thread rod, for removing the guts inside the C10 forks... never even entered my mind... DOHHHH.

Somebody make this a STCKY in the tool section please....
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Bud on August 16, 2017, 09:16:25 pm
It's called a coupling nut
5/8-11 coupling nut specifically
available in steel or stainless 18-8
5/8-11 internal thread and 7/8 hex x 2" length
7/8=.875
22mm=.866
works great, fits the axle nicely and it's very affordable
Under $3.00 US at Ace Hardware or True Value or your participating hardware store
buy an extra for your friends

I installed mine in a 1/2" drive 22mm socket as shown

Now why didn't I think of that?.......wait a minute......don't answer that! :))
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: strum on September 22, 2017, 06:19:12 pm
Our local Home depot did not sell that size coupling nut so I ended up borrowing a motion pro tool from a local shop.
 And I ordered one for my self. 18 bucks and ends all problems.
 Tried the spark plug socket thing. Non of mine will except an extension from the inside.


 
 
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: smithr1 on September 26, 2017, 03:07:46 pm
Tried the spark plug socket thing. Non of mine will except an extension from the inside.

Most have a rubber insert that helps hold the plug into the socket for easy removal but in all mine that just pushed right out.  But only 1 of my 3 plug sockets worked.  It did work and I used it...   Then after the job was done I found that I had ordered the one Murph has months before when I was planning ahead :/
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: strum on September 26, 2017, 11:04:42 pm
Tried the spark plug socket thing. Non of mine will except an extension from the inside.

Most have a rubber insert that helps hold the plug into the socket for easy removal but in all mine that just pushed right out.  But only 1 of my 3 plug sockets worked.  It did work and I used it...   Then after the job was done I found that I had ordered the one Murph has months before when I was planning ahead :/


Yeah I understand about the rubber but none of mine will except an extension from the inside. Im sure some works but I was just saying the Pro Motion tool or Murphs just makes this work out great. You can put a good 1/2" Drive socket (cant remmember the size from here) on the rear of the the tool and use a pull handle.
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: Deepsea on September 27, 2017, 01:33:12 am
By "Pull handle" do you mean breaker bar or ratchet?
Title: Re: What were they thinking (part 2, front axel bolt)
Post by: strum on September 27, 2017, 02:30:36 pm
I aways call it a pull handle but yes a breaker bar.