Author Topic: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed  (Read 8163 times)

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Offline roadisattva

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91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« on: October 08, 2016, 01:44:40 pm »


So my 91 I got running this last spring has a leaky fork seal and I want to clean up the seal with a thin plastic or cardboard wiper and top up the fluid before a more major service over the winter.  I tapped on a 19mm socket that I ground the chamfer off of just like I learned about from MOB concerning my final drive fill plug. It felt for a moment that it might come loose but no luck.  So I have a replacement cap with a good hex that came right off my magical parts bike.



Any thoughts on this removal?  I am thinking to do it in place without removing the fork will take some careful carving with a dremel to make a smaller socket fit.  Maybe some heat on the fork.  I loosened up all the upper pinch bolts and have the right handlebar off as you can see. And yes I let the air out of the forks.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 01:56:39 pm by roadisattva »
Another Steve

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2016, 07:25:43 pm »
Wow..
That's a mess for sure...
That pinch bolt doesn't look loose to me in that photo..

You are gonna have to create a new hex somehow... when you do, and can get a good hex socket to fit, do the following...

Completely remove the top pinch bolts, take them out...
Pound a flat bladed screwdriver down into the slit in the clamp from the top, to further spread that clamp a bit, and leave it in place until the plug comes out, very important to keep that clamp spread...

Don't just start heating it up yet,  look down near the bottom tripple tree, and unclamp the ring clamps that hold the air crossover tube between the forks, ccompletely, and pry that assembly upwards to expose the holes in the fork tubes, this will allow air to escape if you apply heat to the tube.

Pouring solvents and rust remedies down from the top won't help, as the oring is sealing above the threads... so that will never reach the threads...


I've used various methods to get this plug out prior to ever damaging the hex, my techniques consisted of completely removing the top tripple tree, and the tire and brakes and such, and dropped the bottom tree with tubes installed, from the bike,
Inverted the forks, and clamped the bottom tree in a vice overnight, to allow the oil to reach the internal threads, and carefully applied heat directly to the tube where the threads exist before attempting to remove the plug.

No matter what, you may never get that one out, it just doesn't look good...  bummer.

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2016, 07:59:43 pm »
Thinking out loud here(not my best thing to do) Can you swap the fork leg out with the one off the parts bike?
I have no idea about anything.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2016, 08:47:01 pm »
roadisattva, I'm in agreement with MOB.  (OMG, did I say that?? Ohhh, the shame!)
Follow his steps and loosen the pinch bolts..

NOTE: Loosening the pinch bolts should always be done before removing the cap.

Only thing I would add to what MOB sed would be;; tap on the O.D. of the fork tube with a soft hammer.
Might help break corrosion loose.
If all else fails,,, you might have to get an old fashioned pipe wrench to get it to turn...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: "Who Me".... Why didn't we think of that.  :-[
      In the end, that might be the simplest fix.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2016, 10:21:18 pm »
roadisattva, I'm in agreement with MOB.  (OMG, did I say that?? Ohhh, the shame!)
Follow his steps and loosen the pinch bolts..

NOTE: Loosening the pinch bolts should always be done before removing the cap.

Only thing I would add to what MOB sed would be;; tap on the O.D. of the fork tube with a soft hammer.
Might help break corrosion loose.
If all else fails,,, you might have to get an old fashioned pipe wrench to get it to turn...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: "Who Me".... Why didn't we think of that.  :-[
      In the end, that might be the simplest fix.

Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Not gonna happen.

Inverting, and heat, off the bike, with the tripple tree totally removed...
(I found that loosening the bolts still doesn't do the same, all clamping force on the tube there must be removed, thus my screwdriver slit spreading part.)

But in the end, he may end up doing a fork swap, if so, remove both caps, clean the threads on the tubes, and caps, and coaut them with grease...
So it don't happen again

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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2016, 10:32:01 pm »
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.   :-X <walks away whistling>
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2016, 10:33:30 pm »
IF I were doing it, and had to carve a new head on the thing to get a wrench on it, I would not go to the trouble of trying to do a hex.  I'd get a square "farmer" socket, the kind used on old-style square nuts, and carve a square head on the thing to match it.  Much easier than trying to do a symmetrical hex, and you just about can't strip a square.

Plus heat.

And maybe penetrating oil.

And cursing, lots of cursing.

But that's just me.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2016, 10:47:10 pm »
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.   :-X <walks away whistling>


Between you and I, I will admit it would have been one of my first choices if all else failed, and I was going to suggest it.... but felt that my confidence level, and. Level of tools handy, probably would not be the same as the o/p, and I refrained, simply because I do this kinda stuff all the time, on stuff I own... didn't want to chance someone else doing it...

Nosmo,
As for making a "square" knob to grip on, use caution.... if you have ever seen the bottom of that plug, there is a hollow area there, directly under the hex...
If you chop that hex down too far, the wall thickness and cross section will be reduced significantly, and that knob might shear completely off... then the real fun begins.
I also noted as the oring sits above the threads, and fits tight.. penetrating solvents will never reach the threads... but, I have used PB Blaster on the top, and basically filled the recess, and allowed it to soak... it may have assisted in breaking the corrosion between the top o.d. of the plug, and the fork tube, but I know it never made it past that oring.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 10:56:08 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2016, 11:28:26 pm »
It's been a long time since I've seen the  pre-93 forks... isn't that plug aluminium? (that's for our Brit readers).

A good PB Blaster soak, a couple of 1/8" relief holes and judicious use of force on the edge of the hole with a drift and a BFH should loosen it enough to spin it off with vice-grips. Like you said, the corrosion should be at the top, not below the o-ring.

The spring pressure might be a problem - may need to find a way to push against it.

Hell, worst case, I'd break out my Dremel and cut it out and contact the Wizard for a replacement.  :rotflmao:
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2016, 02:41:06 am »
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.   :-X <walks away whistling>


Between you and I, I will admit it would have been one of my first choices if all else failed, and I was going to suggest it.... but felt that my confidence level, and. Level of tools handy, probably would not be the same as the o/p, and I refrained, simply because I do this kinda stuff all the time, on stuff I own... didn't want to chance someone else doing it...

Nosmo,
As for making a "square" knob to grip on, use caution.... if you have ever seen the bottom of that plug, there is a hollow area there, directly under the hex...
If you chop that hex down too far, the wall thickness and cross section will be reduced significantly, and that knob might shear completely off... then the real fun begins.
I also noted as the oring sits above the threads, and fits tight.. penetrating solvents will never reach the threads... but, I have used PB Blaster on the top, and basically filled the recess, and allowed it to soak... it may have assisted in breaking the corrosion between the top o.d. of the plug, and the fork tube, but I know it never made it past that oring.

MOB, I didn't know all that stuff, as I've never had my tubes apart.  Good to know for when I do.  That's why you "da man" and I'm just a Connie driver.   :great:
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Offline roadisattva

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2016, 02:43:16 am »
A bunch of great thoughts and brainpower on this.  thanks all, my intent here was to make the leaky fork somewhat functional for some more riding this fall here in Kansas.  I do have this great magical parts bike that the replacement fork cap unscrewed right out of without loosening the pinch bolts.  Fooled me into thinking that step was unneeded on the good bike. The parts bike has good looking forks with no visible leaks and I am sure I could swap the entire fork and triple out.  Heck even the front tire on the parts bike is better looking and newer. A PR2 I think. I will try removing the pinch bolts completely and using the wedgie method on the pinch gap after dremeling the hex alittle. But what I am afraid of is that the fork seal is truly bad and I should just rebuild the forks from the parts bike and reuse them on the 91. The 86 set of carbs and the petcock from the parts bike are functioning perfectly on the 91 so why wouldn't the set of forks, probably should just R&R them to keep the good magic going.
Can I just unbolt the calibers and remove the pinch bolts and drop the forks and axle assembly complete?. Maybe I should just do the swap...... slide the 86 forks and axle assembly right up there, change the fluid and ride on.  The rotors are just as good looking.
This 91 driver and the 86 parts bike have meshed well to get me riding and liking the ride. 
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2016, 03:15:01 am »
If the brakes and tire, and stuff are good on the donor bike, pulling the tire and assofiated parts, and both fork tubes, and installing them may be the wise choice... don't attempt to swap the stem assembly, and lower tripple tho, the bearings are worn in and the mateup of the donor tree may be, well, would be, an issue... forks and other stuff would be fine...

Best of luck on this, hope you get back on the road

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Offline roadisattva

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2016, 03:29:10 am »
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.   :-X <walks away whistling>


Between you and I, I will admit it would have been one of my first choices if all else failed, and I was going to suggest it.... but felt that my confidence level, and. Level of tools handy, probably would not be the same as the o/p, and I refrained, simply because I do this kinda stuff all the time, on stuff I own... didn't want to chance someone else doing it...

Nosmo,
As for making a "square" knob to grip on, use caution.... if you have ever seen the bottom of that plug, there is a hollow area there, directly under the hex...
If you chop that hex down too far, the wall thickness and cross section will be reduced significantly, and that knob might shear completely off... then the real fun begins.
I also noted as the oring sits above the threads, and fits tight.. penetrating solvents will never reach the threads... but, I have used PB Blaster on the top, and basically filled the recess, and allowed it to soak... it may have assisted in breaking the corrosion between the top o.d. of the plug, and the fork tube, but I know it never made it past that oring.

So with MOB and COG just keystrokes away, Harbor Freight just 4 miles away, the parts bike just inches away; well my confidence level is like my favorite generic quote from several action movies:    " I'm goin in"
Another Steve

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2016, 03:36:32 am »
So with MOB and COG just keystrokes away, Harbor Freight just 4 miles away, the parts bike just inches away; well my confidence level is like my favorite generic quote from several action movies:    " I'm goin in"

So it'll be...

"Damnit, Jim!"

or maybe...

"Damnit.....  Janet"
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2016, 12:27:37 pm »
Ok MOB, I had forgot the recesses on the earlier Connie Forks.
My oops.
Doubtful he can reshape the hex for the same reason...
If he does, I suspect the resulting OD would be too small and probably twist off.

Might be possible to drill 2 holes in the top section of the cap.
(Just outside of the original hex)
Drill and tap to mebbe 1/4 - 20.
Install 2 bolts in the holes with a support bar across the top.
Put a bar between the supported bolts and turn.

ie; Sorta use the bolts like a spanner wrench.

Ted
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2016, 01:34:35 pm »
My main thought here was to just get the cap off , clean up the fork seal, put in some atf or 10w30 high mileage and ride some more this fall.
If I just drill a hole an put in fluid will the few chips that might escape just settle to the bottom? I could carefully clean and collect chips down to the last poke through at the bottom of the hole I drill in the boogered up cap.  I could drain and fill with a measured amount of fluid to get it close. I plan to reseal and add pvc spacers and proper fluid.  Even the amount of torque I put on the 19mm socket before the hex gave way would bend over two 1/4-20 screws I believe.

 Thoughts on this get it back on the road for the fall scheme?
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2016, 01:41:38 pm »
So the coffee is just kicking in and I have another thought.  Why not forget getting the cap out, just drain the fork, clean the seal lip in hope of slowing the leak and push in fluid with a large syringe through the drain. 
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2016, 04:18:32 pm »
So the coffee is just kicking in and I have another thought.  Why not forget getting the cap out, just drain the fork, clean the seal lip in hope of slowing the leak and push in fluid with a large syringe through the drain.

Eventually you'll have to get the cap off. Replacing the fork from the parts bike would be better to do.

When you tried to remove it previously, the pinch bolts were tight.
Loosening them probably/hopefully made it easier to turn.
You just need a way to grip the cap.

I think it's doubtful that you can reshape a hex or square on the existing stub.
So, I was trying to think of a way to explain how to build a tool to turn the cap.
 Thus my thought on the spanner wrench/bolts.
I admit, NOT an ideal idea, but posted it to stir thoughts.

Personally, I'd just build a spanner and drill holes in the cap to match.
If the spanner is built right,,,, it will work better than trying to reshape the stub.

NOTE: Since the area below the O-ring has had oil on it, I suspect the corrosion is only above the O-ring.
  ie; When you washed the bike or rode in rain, water accumulated in the cavity and caused the corrosion.
          So,,,, blow out the cavity with high pressure air, and then fill the cavity with some light oil etc and let it set.
          Might help, and definitely won't hurt..

Last; If the cap doesn't turn after all of this, replace the fork.

Ride safe, Ted



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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2016, 07:37:40 pm »
The various procedures I already outlined are what I would do, on a customers bike, to preclude further damages, and laborious aftermath repairs.

Trying to reshape a hex into a square invlves removing a LOT of metal, simply shaping the existing hex to a smaller hex, does not...
Geometry.... draw a hex, and then draw a square that fits inside the hex.... compare that to a hex within a hex.... getting the picture yet?

As far as drilling thru the cap, any metal chips will require a complete disassembly of the forks, internally, as in pulling all the guts out, including the internal sliders... which are in real short supply these days... then everything needs flushed, and cleaned and reinstalled...and filled to the correct level with fluid...

This ain't happening easily, nor can the fluid be changed and height measured without doing it from the top.. simply a waste of efforts.
If ya gotta drill something, then start by first getting a hex shape formed on the nut.
Then start drilling 1/8" diameter holes, alongside the inner surface of the fork tube and only go as deep as the dimension you see on the good plug, that equals the depth to the middle of that o ring groove, no deeper... drill as many holes as it takes around the top perimeter of the plug, with the holes spaced as close as possible, ... then pour in some PB Blaster, or good penetrant... and let it sit.... then, as I previously directed, with the forks and bottom tree pulled off the bike and tree clamped in a vise, and forks inverted, heat the area the plug lives in, and have at it with a good wrench...


I say just install the donor forks and be done with it... :-[ ::) :-X

Then later, take the ruined one to someone who welds, have him weld a chunk of stock onto the bad plug, and use that to remove the plug, later...

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2016, 09:03:50 pm »
Saw this Dont know if it would be small enough to get down in to where it needs to go But for 12 bucks may be worth a shot
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Gator-Grip-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Combination-3-8-in-Drive-6-Point-Socket-Set/999949198?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-MechanicsTools-_-999949198:Gator-Grip&CAWELAID=&kpid=999949198&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1737&k_clickID=7eec3f50-da16-4d59-bd50-efd44704366e
If your pressed for time go with MOB and swap the fork out then later you can deal with it and not be rushing to make a mistake (DAMHIK)
I have no idea about anything.
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02 C10 parts are parts
08 FJR Self identifies as a C13

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2016, 10:28:55 pm »
Saw this Dont know if it would be small enough to get down in to where it needs to go But for 12 bucks may be worth a shot
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Gator-Grip-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Combination-3-8-in-Drive-6-Point-Socket-Set/999949198?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-MechanicsTools-_-999949198:Gator-Grip&CAWELAID=&kpid=999949198&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1737&k_clickID=7eec3f50-da16-4d59-bd50-efd44704366e
If your pressed for time go with MOB and swap the fork out then later you can deal with it and not be rushing to make a mistake (DAMHIK)


I destroyed 2 of those, on perfectly functional hexes, at a pal's house, trying to remove a stuck bolt for him... he had every permutation of "as seen on tv" miracle tool on hand, but didn't even have a good set of sockets, or a 12" breaker bar... I jumped on the bike, rode 30 miles each way and brought back correct sockets, and popped the bolt out in a second... the insult was I had the breakerbar, and every metric tool I could need on the bike.... just didn't have a good socket, and at 9p.m. on a Sunday out in bfe, it was the only choice for the sae bolt at hand... (oh, I called momma and directed her to bring the tools, which she knows well, and the location, and she told my to go pound salt.... well, that was putting it mildly..  :rotflmao:  )

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Offline Rob

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2016, 11:13:45 am »
I have a perfectly good set of forks for the early C10's, freshish oil and no issues.  Yours for the price of delivery.  PM if interested.

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2016, 12:07:20 pm »
Wow Rob thanks for the great offer but I have a set on the 86 donor bike, just here to explore alternatives.  I want to get on this and document the fix with a pic or two, but the starter in my van quit in the driveway yesterday and I have to inhabit the undervan today. I will post my fix here.

Thanks all
Another Steve

Offline goatmar

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2016, 03:58:28 pm »
LOTS OF PEN OIL!!!!!!!!!
Dave Muzzey  St. Charles, IL  COG#7957  '01 Connie  100K miles and counting

Offline claytonsdad

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2016, 03:27:47 pm »
I am way out of my element, and way late to the party, but I've used these things successfully several times to remove lug nuts that were rounded off.  If there is clearance to get the correct size on, they are made inside where they grip the hex head with a ground reverse spiral.  The harder you twist, the more they grip.  It doesn't matter if the hex is completely rounded off. Sooner or later, something has to give.  Just a suggestion.  If you try this and use an extension, make sure it's a good one.  I've twisted several cheap ones in two removing lug nuts.  For some reason, the idea of proper torque escapes tire shops in my area. 

http://www.lowes.com/pd/IRWIN-BOLT-GRIP-5-Pack-Bolt-Extractor-Set/50146292
http://www.harborfreight.com/9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-67894.html
2003 - The Wild Child
1052 by SiSF w/ Power Cams, ZZR Front End, 17" Wheels, Cruise Control