Author Topic: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed  (Read 8167 times)

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Offline Boomer

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2016, 07:07:25 pm »
I would take the fork out and stand it upside down for a day to let the fork oil seep into the threads.
Then dremel some grooves in the outer and use a chisel and hammer to break the cap loose.
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Offline Cal

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2016, 11:41:10 pm »
"9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-6789"

I wonder what reason they call it metric?  Wouldn't "close-enough-to-work" work?  The fastener is toast anyway.

 ;)

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Offline blewbayou

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2016, 01:11:40 am »
Is there enough height to run a left hand thread die onto it? Die will bottom out. Keep applying pressure until cap breaks loose. Light hammer taps around outside of tube, as mentioned in earlier posts, will help break some corrosion loose.

I've not seen one of these forks in person, not sure if a die and socket would even fit...just my thought.

Offline claytonsdad

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2016, 01:47:37 am »
Quote
"9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-6789"

I wonder what reason they call it metric?  Wouldn't "close-enough-to-work" work?  The fastener is toast anyway.

I really think "close enough" would work.  I have a set and can tell you that the harder you twist these suckers, the more they bite into the fastener.  Haven't had one slip yet.  I've had to beat fasteners out of them with a hammer and a drift to get them back out before.  If one would fit into the recess, I almost guarantee it would remove the fastener, rounded or not.  However, DO NOT USE CHEAP (READ HARBOR FREIGHT) extensions.  If the fastener is really stuck, you will break them.  Otherwise, I wish I'd found them sooner.  These are a purely mechanical means of gripping the fastener, unlike Gator Grip and such. 
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2016, 04:43:22 pm »
Ted told me politely via PM that I was being a wuckfit,..... and he was right  :-[ :-[ :-[
No way ya can get a drift in there to hit.

I have a fork in pieces in front of me and unless its the valve side (which from the pic it isn't) it's not hollow so you can cut some flats on the center and maybe get it out that way. I still think yer gonna have to remove the fork and apply some heat to get that sucker out. Ally to steel corrosion is a mighty stickem. I have always lithium greased mine before fitting after fighting one some 15 years ago.
Good luck  :)
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2016, 07:25:10 pm »


So my 91 I got running this last spring has a leaky fork seal and I want to clean up the seal with a thin plastic or cardboard wiper and top up the fluid before a more major service over the winter.  I tapped on a 19mm socket that I ground the chamfer off of just like I learned about from MOB concerning my final drive fill plug. It felt for a moment that it might come loose but no luck.  So I have a replacement cap with a good hex that came right off my magical parts bike.



Any thoughts on this removal?  I am thinking to do it in place without removing the fork will take some careful carving with a dremel to make a smaller socket fit.  Maybe some heat on the fork.  I loosened up all the upper pinch bolts and have the right handlebar off as you can see. And yes I let the air out of the forks.



So with all the supposed tool opinions, and suggestions given so far, I just had to go back, and quote the original messege, and make sure people are seeing the pictures of the problem.. looking closely at the plug, the damaged one, and where it lives currently in its stuck position... also note the threaded projection on the top that the plastic cover screws onto...

Maybe now, the people that didn't read the iniial post, or have never looked at a pre 94 fork, get a better picture of the work area and tooling restrictions for fitment....


Carry on.

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Offline connie_rider

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2016, 10:31:43 pm »
Easiest is still to replace the fork leg.

The reason the original hex gave way was.
  Corrosion on the O.D. of the cap and corrosion of the original hex.
  Pinch bolts were tight.

I don't think he can successfully grind a strong hex/square/flat on the damaged stud.
  (I'd personally build a spanner to do the job, but I have tools to do so, (and also go thru the shock.)
I think there is a chance the extractor tool will turn it, if;
  1) The upper pinch bolt bolts are loosened
  2) Wedge the groove a bit to be sure the upper triple tree clamp is as loose as it can be.
  3) Blow out as much corrosion as you can.
  4) Soak the pocket with penetrating oil for several days (as I feel most of the corrosion is above the O-ring).
  5) Pray softly, Curse loudy!!

But; Easiest is still to replace the fork leg.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline roadisattva

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2016, 02:05:59 am »
I have been up north in Minnesota for the last few weeks and the great weather is keeping me here doing old house and farm chores on the daughters farm.  Thanks all for the ongoing discussion.  The extractor sockets sound like a great idea and worth a try as Ted discusses.
As I do have the complete fork set from the parts bike just sitting there I will try the extractor hammered on lightly maybe with the rattle gun set on low to start. If no luck then I do the swap and report here with a pic or two.  I did not think those extractor sockets came in a large enough size so thanks claytonsdad for the harbor freight link. I will take my parts bike end cap in with me to check the fit. Home in the next few days and ready to get in the garage and get this old girl back on the road for a ride or two more this fall.
btw, if you look at the pic above that MOB reposted you can see the marks where I got a drift in there and tried to hammer the cap to start it turning, it dug into the aluminum pretty good but I didn't want to booger things up so much that other methods could not be tried.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 02:18:52 am by roadisattva »
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Offline Bud

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2016, 11:13:39 am »
I'm with Ted.  It's not hard to pull the fork tubes and use the one from the parts bike.  The frustration factor would be too much for me.   >:( :truce: :truce:
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Offline roadisattva

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2016, 03:55:46 pm »
There sure is a frustration factor.  I got the extractor socket set from harbor freight and used my Harbor freight dremel type tool to shape the hex some and hammered the 17mm socket on and it was on nice and tight.  But lesson learned is that even on tight and using good leverage the aluminum is too soft and the cap is too tight.  I am about to remove the front forks from the donor bike and the good bike and swap them to keep the donor a roller for now.  The donor forks do not seem to be leaking, both the caps came out with ease (the end caps are also called preload adjusters, is that right?) and I will drain and fill with fresh 15wt and go for awhile.  Learning the differences between an 86 and later models in the handlebar area but the forks seem to match. Good rotors and newer, better tire on the 86 front wheel as well so that's going on the 91.  Just need to clean up the fork fluid all over the calipers and clean and lube the speedometer drive. Wheel bearings feel good and so do the head bearings but from what I read I should tighten them so the triple does not bounce off of the stops. 
So I plan to rebuild the 91 forks to reinstall later by drilling out the stuck cap, cleaning and flushing, and doing the spring cut and pvc spacer mod. So far I have 1000 in the low mileage 91, 200 in the parts 86, a hundred bucks or so in misc parts, and hope to get and keep this bike in touring condition on a limited budget. Its running great on the donor bike carbs and petcock for now but the 91 set will go in to Steve some day soon. 

Thanks all
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2016, 06:35:49 pm »
Once you get the donor parts on, you can always bench the bad fork tube and basically drill out enough material until it falls apart. Of course, I'd do this with the tube on it's side to keep shavings from falling to the bottom.

4 or 5 3/8" holes drilled into the bad cap should work - would provide some relief for the threads, and you could put a couple large bolts through the holes and twist them with a pry bar (of course, securing the tube without scratching it would be key)


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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2016, 06:42:30 pm »
You could slide the upper triple clamp down on top of the lower, tighten and clamp them both in a vise the for twice the holding power with scratching the fork.

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2016, 06:20:42 pm »
report for all that have watched and discussed:

I have the forks off the 91 and the 86 donor bike; always surprises to be found and solutions determined.  the 86 forks have been off before  and the original air system defeated by welding the tube holes and filling the air line crossover sleeves holes with a machine screw and cutting off the head and preening the remaining portion to lock and seal.  So it appears to be a proper job of defeating the air system.
 I appear to have stock progressive style springs and non leaking fork seals.  The fluid that came out is not as bad as expected.
My plan now is to reassemble the 91 with the 86 stock parts, 15w fluid and ride without the air system. Calipers and pads on the 91 are good. Yes, ties holding them up.

 Any thoughts on adjustments for the lack of the air system;  fluid level, viscosity, etc?  I plan to ride for a few/ get the feel of it/ rides and maybe put in the other springs after a 4 inch cut off with a pvc spacer. So I have two connies with no front ends and jacks under the engines out in the garages. A regular one man tech gathering but without the beer.   Another discovery is that the parts bike front wheel has good wheel bearings, rotors, and a 2013 Michelin 110/80 tire with very nice tread but only needs a new valve. The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007, but it is holding air and has some tread. This is fun sorting out this bike on a budget using the magic parts bike. Learning much with COG help.
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2016, 07:53:36 pm »
Sounds like fun.

Quote
The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007

I would pitch that tire far, far away. No way I trust my life on a nine year old tire.

Keep on keepin on. :beerchug:
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2016, 08:05:25 pm »
report for all that have watched and discussed:

I have the forks off the 91 and the 86 donor bike; always surprises to be found and solutions determined.  the 86 forks have been off before  and the original air system defeated by welding the tube holes and filling the air line crossover sleeves holes with a machine screw and cutting off the head and preening the remaining portion to lock and seal.  So it appears to be a proper job of defeating the air system.
 I appear to have stock progressive style springs and non leaking fork seals.  The fluid that came out is not as bad as expected.
My plan now is to reassemble the 91 with the 86 stock parts, 15w fluid and ride without the air system. Calipers and pads on the 91 are good. Yes, ties holding them up.

 Any thoughts on adjustments for the lack of the air system;  fluid level, viscosity, etc?  I plan to ride for a few/ get the feel of it/ rides and maybe put in the other springs after a 4 inch cut off with a pvc spacer. So I have two connies with no front ends and jacks under the engines out in the garages. A regular one man tech gathering but without the beer.   Another discovery is that the parts bike front wheel has good wheel bearings, rotors, and a 2013 Michelin 110/80 tire with very nice tread but only needs a new valve. The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007, but it is holding air and has some tread. This is fun sorting out this bike on a budget using the magic parts bike. Learning much with COG help.

My advice...
I've seen about every permutation of cutting springs and adding spacers to pre 94 forks, and when going to spring only ( no ait assist) the most reliable, and easiest method truley is the Progressive springs from Murph's.... they are inexpensive, and they work nicely without a bunch of guesswork,
Drop em in, after adding the correct level of oil of your choice...(I've used 10 and 15 wt) and you are done as long as the air crossover holes are plugged.

I've installed them on both my pre 94's, and 3 other owners bikes, and found they were all improved, for very little money.


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Offline connie_rider

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2016, 09:24:31 pm »
I agree.

Here's a thought.
I have the stock springs out of my 03.
  (They are in the Progressive box that I got my progressives in).
If I recall, the 91 had springs and spacers?
               the 03 had longer springs without spacers?
                The 03 had a better ride than the 91?

If yes, would my 03 springs fit in his 91?
If so I'll give them to you to try until you get some progressives.
You cover shipping and we're even.

Ride safe, Ted



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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2016, 10:57:17 pm »
Make sure you dont cross thread the cap to the tube
Screwed up fork tubes make good cheater bars
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Offline Cal

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2016, 11:02:54 pm »
so why are people closing up the air crossover system?

Cal

Offline roadisattva

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2016, 01:43:28 am »
I agree.

Here's a thought.
I have the stock springs out of my 03.
  (They are in the Progressive box that I got my progressives in).
If I recall, the 91 had springs and spacers?
               the 03 had longer springs without spacers?
                The 03 had a better ride than the 91?

If yes, would my 03 springs fit in his 91?
If so I'll give them to you to try until you get some progressives.
You cover shipping and we're even.

Ride safe, Ted


Ted,
You are right the 91 has spacers and kind of limp springs.  It seems I have some progressive springs in the donor forks that are identical in coil count to the ones pictured on Murphs site.  They are about an inch longer than the stockers without the spacer.  I will take a side by side pic tomorrow.  It seems like the magic parts bike makes what MOB recommends appear.  Wow, just wow  I'am running them  These are either the later model springs like yours or progressives.  Thanks again for the offer to help.
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2016, 01:53:04 am »
so why are people closing up the air crossover system?

Cal

well, you can leave it in place, and if the seals an orings are good, no issue.
just don't add air on top of the Progressive spring kit....
fork seals after removing the need for air, will go forever...

just saying.

mind the correct oil levels tho. for pre 94

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2016, 01:56:23 am »
so why are people closing up the air crossover system?

Cal

Not ignoring you.
Not sure why their changing, nor the purpose of it.
I suspect it kept the air pressures and fluid levels equal.

One possible reason for changing is air leaks?

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline roadisattva

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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2016, 04:15:12 pm »
report for all that have watched and discussed:

I have the forks off the 91 and the 86 donor bike; always surprises to be found and solutions determined.  the 86 forks have been off before  and the original air system defeated by welding the tube holes and filling the air line crossover sleeves holes with a machine screw and cutting off the head and preening the remaining portion to lock and seal.  So it appears to be a proper job of defeating the air system.
 I appear to have stock progressive style springs and non leaking fork seals.  The fluid that came out is not as bad as expected.
My plan now is to reassemble the 91 with the 86 stock parts, 15w fluid and ride without the air system. Calipers and pads on the 91 are good. Yes, ties holding them up.

 Any thoughts on adjustments for the lack of the air system;  fluid level, viscosity, etc?  I plan to ride for a few/ get the feel of it/ rides and maybe put in the other springs after a 4 inch cut off with a pvc spacer. So I have two connies with no front ends and jacks under the engines out in the garages. A regular one man tech gathering but without the beer.   Another discovery is that the parts bike front wheel has good wheel bearings, rotors, and a 2013 Michelin 110/80 tire with very nice tread but only needs a new valve. The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007, but it is holding air and has some tread. This is fun sorting out this bike on a budget using the magic parts bike. Learning much with COG help.


My advice...
I've seen about every permutation of cutting springs and adding spacers to pre 94 forks, and when going to spring only ( no ait assist) the most reliable, and easiest method truley is the Progressive springs from Murph's.... they are inexpensive, and they work nicely without a bunch of guesswork,
Drop em in, after adding the correct level of oil of your choice...(I've used 10 and 15 wt) and you are done as long as the air crossover holes are plugged.

I've installed them on both my pre 94's, and 3 other owners bikes, and found they were all improved, for very little money.


MOB,  I really wanted so badly to buy some springs from Murphs on your recommendation that I looked at the website and recognized the progressives as what I took out of the donor 86,  even the coil count is the same.

Top is what I found in the 86 donor and bottom is the 91 stocker from the fork I could get open.
So I am putting the progressives forks/springs into the 91 starting with atf for fluid and changing with my cool drain plugs when I want to try something heavier. I am having such good luck with this parts bike that I better check the engine for Steves cams and a seventh gear unit,  Wow  So are these progressives from Murphs, is there a way to tell or are these just regular post 94 springs? They sure are a lot stiffer just trying to compress in my hands.  I am looking forward to the ride. It was a front diver but I thought it was because of the leaky fork seal.  Putting it back together today. I will mark and use my wooden dowel hydrolock tester stick for fluid dipstick.  Just under 14 inches from the top with the forks fully extended, pumped slowly a few times before a final measurement;  right?
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2016, 11:34:15 pm »
Its going back together.  I got the donor tire wheel valve fixed and rebalanced at Cycle Gear today and the front end is part way together.  Finished tomorrow and a test ride,  maybe a real ride on Monday.  Sunny and 57 in the afternoon. 
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2016, 02:43:37 am »
roadisattva sed; I will mark and use my wooden dowel hydrolock tester stick for fluid dipstick.  Just under 14 inches from the top with the forks fully extended, pumped slowly a few times before a final measurement;  right?

Don't quite follow you there.
That might be the measurements on the stock 86.
Easier way to do it is;
Remove the springs, completely compress the shock, and set the oil level at 6 1/2"..

A sneaky way to set the 6 1/2" is to overfill with fluid, and suck the extra fluid out.
Being  :truce: frugal, I sometimes use a Turkey baster and a rubber hose.
   Attach the hose to the turkey baster. (Precision front suspension setting device)
      Put the hose 6 1/2" into the top of the shock and suck the oil out.
      When you suck air, the oil level is exactly 6 1/2"...

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 12:40:42 pm by connie_rider »
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Re: 91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2016, 02:57:39 pm »
Ted,
I used the FSM and MOB method for 86-93 forks filling and all went well.  I filled with atf that I had on hand.  Checked it over and went for a test ride. Viscosity charts seem to say to me that atf is around 10 wt or higher allowing for differences in brands.  This is great to have this project not be just a repair but an upgrade to progressive like springs.  All seems to be well on a 10 mile test ride and I will go for a more extended ride today.  I loosened and retightened everything while learning and understanding the sequence of fork and wheel installation and keeping the bike upright as well. No leaks and an improved ride with an upgrade in tire and springs is a great outcome with COG help.  I will be renewing membership.

Thanks for offers of help.  It was great to be able to do this with what was at hand.  My little hot rod garage suspension mod here was to sandwich the fork bracket from both bikes together on the 91 for additional bracing on the forks. ( the bracket with 4 holes on top of the fender)
I have fiqured out how to get a photobucket pic into my posts but have no luck getting emoticons above this box to come down using drag/drop or cut past,  what is the method?
Another Steve