Author Topic: Brake conversion food for thought  (Read 18672 times)

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Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2015, 11:47:06 pm »
IMO- The added benefit of the radial caliper will be offset by the additional unsprung weight.
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Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2015, 12:48:07 am »
One of the perks of the radial caliper bracket is the ability to upgrade the stock diameter rotor at a later date without having to purchase yet another bracket. You would simply move the caliper outboard with the appropriate spacers to compensate for the increase in diameter. From experience I know that the Chinese rotor prices have fallen, and in fact make them a attractive replacement alternative. Wouldn't it be nice to know that you could take full advantage of larger rotors without having to spend additional money on the mount brackets? I am very happy with my present set up, I just like the idea of having a viable alternative. Now if someone would invent ABS that comes in a brake fluid bottle I would really be happy!

Agreed. I was very satisfied with my 4 pots and zxmopar brackets before I built my radial caliper brackets last year. And I usually got the same response I got when I built my 4 into 1 exhaust, "why did you do that", to which I replied, " because I could". Oh and my other standard response is "because nobody else made one for my bike". Can't wait to get the new radial caliper brackets and do the change over. I may donate my homemade aluminum brackets to the C-10 Hall of Fame.
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Offline AirMonger

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2015, 01:13:13 am »
Your very right about the unsprung weight difference. What does that have to do with stopping a 700lb. motorcycle would be my response to that. I want all the controllable stopping power I can get without the assistance of ABS. This is not a GSXR that we are talking about. We are not shaving ounces to improve lap times here and the general handling characteristics are good at best compared to the majority of modern bikes. Everyone will agree that riding a C14 will leave you wanting to throw rocks at your C10. Personally I will take the trade off. If everyone continued to think that what Ma Kaw started is with is as good as it will get, we would all be eagerly awaiting the release of this years batch of K700's. This is not rocket science, this is exploiting improved technology to make a good bike even better.
"It usually takes 20 years before people begin to appreciate a good design." Kevin Cameron

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2015, 01:50:50 am »
AirMonger- There is no difference in stopping power between a similar sized radial and axial mounted caliper. The only way to improve braking is by increasing the clamping force or increasing the swept area of the braking surface. I was only pointing out that whatever improvement you think you are getting out of the radials is offset by the weight and the standard mounting. Enjoy your radial calipers.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline AirMonger

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2015, 02:39:04 am »
Which is why I run 320mm rotors. Why not employ a better caliper to exploit them? And a better question is, why not have a little fun doing it? :beerchug:
"It usually takes 20 years before people begin to appreciate a good design." Kevin Cameron

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2015, 02:42:03 am »
 :beerchug:
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2015, 02:52:01 am »
Which is why I run 320mm rotors. Why not employ a better caliper to exploit them? And a better question is, why not have a little fun doing it? :beerchug:

Damn right, we do it because we can that's why
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Offline Max

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2015, 04:02:11 am »
if you can get a modern 4 pot  caliper onto a c-10 then do it, I had the zrxmopar brackets with tokico calipers from an 02-03 zx-9r and the 2 line kit from murphs on my old 01 using stock rotors and ebc HH+ pads  I could get the rear swinging in the air hard braking into corners. with good control over the whole process.  never outright tried to do stoppies or anything like that, not wise on a 700lb  bike.  but it changed the way I used the brakes, brake way later and harder with less fade and better control.  the front end had 1.1 springs and emulators 7.5wt oil with a  bay machine works forkbrace.  or else with the stock suspension it would just slam thru to the stops.
 its a system, cant do just one thing and expect miracles it all has to work together.

as far as the bit extra unsprung weight, negligable effect on braking. the extra stopping power afforded by the better distributed clamping force  from the 4 pots more than made up for it.   If i ever get another c10 the same setup will go on the front if I can get the pieces.

do it if you can, just remember to pay attention to the front suspension or it WILL pogo all over the road on hard corner entry. it will slam into the stops lock the wheel and you will have to let up and get the wheel moving again  then the front comes up and the whole dance starts over just with less space to make that upcoming corner.

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2015, 05:05:47 am »
Max- I am currently running 2000 CBR600 Nissin calipers on stock rotors. My argument was to the improvement of radial calipers compared to the axial calipers. There is no doubt that improving the brakes is a worthy expenditure. My must have for any C10- 17" Wheels, 4 Piston brakes, overflow tubes.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline AirMonger

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2015, 12:57:16 pm »
PB, this does bring up an interesting point about weight. Has anyone measured the mass of a stock wheel vs. a 17" wheel. Obviously tire choice will effect total mass as would brake rotor choice. My thoughts are:

Radial tire vs. bias = lighter due to construction dynamics
18" vs. 17" wheel = probably a break even point due to increased width of 17" even though the spoke designs of most 17" wheels are hollow castings, so there might be a slight advantage to the 17"
Brake rotors stock vs. Chinese or similar. I did not notice a distinctive difference in weight but I don't know if that speaks well for the quality of material in the Chinese rotors.
Radial vs. axial caliper. it will take a scale to determine the weight difference between these two. There is a lot of material in both sets.
Caliper hangars. Steel (as in my case) vs. billet aluminum. This will be easy to determine with a postal scale and I will do that during the swap.

I need to replace my rotor bolts as well so I will measure the front 17" wheel (has PR3 mounted) while doing this. I don't have a stock wheel from the 06 to check weight against as I installed them on the 90 I handed off to my brother. I have 90 front fork set laying around now. I will see if, over the course of this upgrade I can come up with definitive answers to weight differences. Just for grins. If anyone has a front wheel off for winter maintenance and can chime in on this, that would be cool.
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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2015, 04:12:22 pm »
Reading over various discussions, I haven't seen anyone mention one advantage of a 17" wheel over an 18" that I think is very important..
Not sure how to explain it, but here goes.

(Regardless of the brakes you are using), the 17" gives you a braking advantage over the 18".

On the 18" wheel you are stopping a wheel from turning that has a 9" radius.
On the 17" wheel you are stopping a wheel from turning that has a 8 1/2" radius.
That 1/2' doesn't seem like much, but that 1/2" reduction means your brakes are applying more force to stop the bike because less is required to stop the wheel from turning..

Can some of you math wizards explain my theory better than I?

NOTE: On my bike, I choose to build inner and outer brackets for the caliper's (as I feel 2 brackets are more rigid than just 1 bracket.
                             Because of the extra parts, I was concerned with Un-sprung weight.
                             So, I measured the weight of the 4 pot Tokico caliper's, 4 (aluminum) Brackets, and bolts that I used, and compared
                              that weight with the stock set up (which uses steel brackets).                               
                             I think I recall that the weight of the 4 pots (and hardware) were less than a stock set up.

Ride safe, Ted



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Offline GF-in-CA

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2015, 04:28:06 pm »
Ted, you're right, a smaller diameter wheel does improve braking assuming the tire diameter is smaller as well.  The stopping force is related to the brake caliper force by the ratio of the brake pad contact radius and the tire radius

Stopping force = (caliper friction force) X (brake pad contact radius) / (tire radius)

So for a given rotor size, as the tire radius goes down, the stopping force goes up.
Gary F.

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2015, 04:45:56 pm »
Yes!! Thanks' Gary.
Your my hero....
That is what I was trying to say.

What you mention about the tire is another advantage of a 17" Wheel (as many are going from 18" Belted (Wing sized tires) to 17" Radials).
So, in most cases the aspect ratio of the new tire is better for stopping.

Ride safe, Ted

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Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2015, 08:02:14 pm »
Airmonger - I will weigh the stock wheels off my 06 when I get to work tonight. I will be unable to weigh the 17 inch wheels due to a leaky jack. Sure makes for quick work when the front wheel is off. Lol.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2015, 10:16:33 pm »
On our shop digital shipping scale the weights are as follows- Front wheel with Avon Storm 120/70 - 29lbs with rotors/ 22lbs without. Back wheel with Avon Azaro in stock size for 2006 - 36lbs. The scale resolution is in 1lb increments so the wheels could weigh a little more.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline AirMonger

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2015, 11:31:07 pm »
Great. Thanks for taking the time to do that. I was going to do my rotor bolts (and weigh all the components) and other general maintenance this weekend but it will have to wait. Gonna have a new grandson on Friday or Saturday.
"It usually takes 20 years before people begin to appreciate a good design." Kevin Cameron

Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2015, 12:18:04 am »
Congratulations on the new grandson!
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline AirMonger

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2015, 06:10:45 pm »
Thanks. A few years ago I was beginning to wonder if I was ever going to be a grandpa. Now they are stacking up like cord wood. Three in the last two years.
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Offline GF-in-CA

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2015, 09:39:45 pm »
Max- I am currently running 2000 CBR600 Nissin calipers on stock rotors. My argument was to the improvement of radial calipers compared to the axial calipers. There is no doubt that improving the brakes is a worthy expenditure. My must have for any C10- 17" Wheels, 4 Piston brakes, overflow tubes.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the construction of the radial calipers that I've seen are a stiffer design than the conventional side mounted calipers.  This should decrease the amount of flex when the brake is applied and improve overall "feel", and would be a tangible reason to choose the radial calipers.
Gary F.

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Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2015, 01:39:31 am »
The radial is only as stiff as the mount and the mounts for the retrofit are loooooong.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

Offline Jim Snyder

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2015, 03:23:29 am »
I guarantee my aluminum radial caliper brackets I made last year don't flex.
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Offline GF-in-CA

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2015, 03:28:06 am »
I'm talking about the ability of the caliper to resist spreading, which is felt directly in the lever.  The bracket won't have any affect on this.  Besides, the SVracing adapters don't look particularly stiff to me either, and by all accounts they seem to work well.  :)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 03:34:37 am by GF-in-CA »
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Offline Pbfoot

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2015, 06:56:05 am »
After studying some technical drawings of the radial calipers I would have to agree that it is a much stiffer design and due to the one piece construction and  will not spread. I stand corrected.
If you don't have time to do it right, when do you have time to do it over.                                                                17" wheels, Nissin 4 piston calipers.1kg Sonic Springs.Cartridge Fork Emulators. KB Brace. Galfer brake lines  Free power mod.

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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2015, 11:20:29 am »
Max- I am currently running 2000 CBR600 Nissin calipers on stock rotors. My argument was to the improvement of radial calipers compared to the axial calipers. There is no doubt that improving the brakes is a worthy expenditure. My must have for any C10- 17" Wheels, 4 Piston brakes, overflow tubes.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the construction of the radial calipers that I've seen are a stiffer design than the conventional side mounted calipers.  This should decrease the amount of flex when the brake is applied and improve overall "feel", and would be a tangible reason to choose the radial calipers.

It was brought up, and I have read a bit more on it too. You do lose some of the advantage by using a bracket over having a fork designed for the caliper since your mounts on the fork leg are still for a standard caliper. Swapping the forks out like Rev and others have done would be the only reasonable way to get full advantage. That being said, even mounting the radial mount to the standard caliper mount,  they are still WAY ahead of the brakes the c10 came with! And possibly better that the current conversion.
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Re: Brake conversion food for thought
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2015, 02:17:20 pm »
It was brought up, and I have read a bit more on it too. You do lose some of the advantage by using a bracket over having a fork designed for the caliper since your mounts on the fork leg are still for a standard caliper. Swapping the forks out like Rev and others have done would be the only reasonable way to get full advantage. That being said, even mounting the radial mount to the standard caliper mount,  they are still WAY ahead of the brakes the c10 came with! And possibly better that the current conversion.


I think Rain Dancer has hit it on the head.
 Swapping the entire front end is the way to get the most improvement.
 Installing brackets and 4 pot Calipers is far better than original.

More Food for thought;
I have 1 problem with "all" the Conversion brackets I have looked at.
"All" the brackets are mounted Outboard of the Fork Leg mounting points. (Conventional and Radial)
I think (because the attachment point is further from the rotor) this distance allows the brackets to flex.

When I built my conversion I added inboard brackets (to reduce this flex).
I do not KNOW if it helped, but it is lighter and (potentially) more rigid than all the brackets I have seen.

Go to Reply #30 on this discussion to see photo of my 2 bracket set up.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,47952.30.html

Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 10:00:30 pm by connie_rider »
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