Author Topic: C10 to C14 rear shock question?  (Read 2542 times)

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Offline Lee

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C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« on: August 15, 2018, 04:46:16 pm »
I have acquired a low mileage C14 shock with all the linkage and rocker. I have searched this site and others having mention of lowering links, but did not see anyone using C14 linkage/rocker. Is the rocker arm ratio going the wrong way to lower C10 with the C14 shock? Is there some other fitment issue? Would like to have some insight before disassembly. When adding a rocker to lower a C10 with a C14 shock, are you lengthening the rocker? The C14 rocker appears .5 inch or so shorter.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2018, 08:29:57 pm »
The C-14 rocker is a different design with different geometry than a C-10.

If you do the shock install on a stock rocker {I think} you will need to build a shoulder bolt or bushing to go thru the lower eye of the shock and drill the upper eye to a larger diameter.
(I'll try to find that info)

I recently added a C-14 shock to my 2003. To keep the seat height the same I added a Lowering Rocker.
Norm Soucy makes a 1 1/2" lowering rocker that makes the seat height the same as stock.
I think the cost is now $200 and the rocker comes with new seals and bearings..
Here is his up to date info:   sanleonster@gmail.com
                                          phone# (281) 339-1156


Another option is lowering links. I'm not sure what is available or if they will work.
 I've been told that the adjustable (Soupy's) do not work with the center stand.
  I think you would need links that have the stock bend in them so that the center stand will work.

Here is a set I found. Looks to me like it will "not" work with the CS..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Concours-1000-Lowering-Link-Links-Kit-Adjustable-1996-1997-1998-1999-2000-ZG1000/181719209978?hash=item2a4f4f17fa:g:gBwAAOSwxYxUs797

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 12:47:10 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline oldsmoboat

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Offline Mcfly

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2018, 12:47:50 am »
Another option is lowering links. I'm not sure what is available or if they will work.
 I've been told that the adjustable (Soupy's) do not work with the center stand.
  I think you would need links that have the stock bend in them so that the center stand will work.

Here is a set I found. Looks to me like it will not work with the CS..
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Concours-1000-Lowering-Link-Links-Kit-Adjustable-1996-1997-1998-1999-2000-ZG1000/181719209978?hash=item2a4f4f17fa:g:gBwAAOSwxYxUs797

Ride safe, Ted
The Spring on the C14 shock is too wide to use with Soupy's Adjustable Lowering Links.
Those links on e-bay look just like Soupy's....  I'm not very confident.
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Offline oldsmoboat

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2018, 11:01:07 pm »
I have Soucy's dogbone and a C14 shock on my 2004.

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 12:31:44 am »
I didn't know Soucy made a dog bone??
To my knowledge, he only made Lowering Rocker's.

If you used a Link, are you sure it's not a Soupy's dog bone/Lowering Link?
If yes, does it work with the center stand?

Ride safe, Ted

I have Soucy's dogbone and a C14 shock on my 2004.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 11:30:02 am by connie_rider »
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Offline oldsmoboat

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 01:15:28 am »
Dogbone may have been the incorrect term.  Norm called it "lowering link".

Not my picture but this is what it looks like.  http://cog-online.org/clubportal/images/clubimages/1328/webpages/Techguide/loweringarm-01.jpg

I thought I had a whole thread on my shock replacement but I don't find it.  Did find this which talks about the necessary modifications.
http://forum.cog-online.org/tiressuspension-c10/rear-shock-58159

I had to grind down the crossbar on the center stand a little to get the center stand to work. 



Offline oldsmoboat

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 01:19:37 am »

Offline Bob_C_CT

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 06:27:34 am »
Yes, that's Norms lowering link.
97 C10,ZRX Front, Meanstreak rim

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 11:40:33 am »
Ok, Oldsmoboat, that clears it up. You did the same as most of us and used a Lowering Rocker.
Your adjuster is installed in the same place I did mine.
Good point on grinding your crossbar. I had forgot about that.
I ground a bit off the end on the Rocker to clear the crossbar of my center stand.

Lee, all of the mods folks made will sound a little confusing to you right now.
With shock in hand, and looking at your bike, it will all make sense.
 To me the most difficult part was getting the proper bushing for the lower eye.
  As I recall, I made mine from one of the original C-10 shock bolts.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2018, 08:36:20 pm »
Thanks all!

Pulling shocks soon to exchange. C14 rocker is short eye to eye in all directions on side by side comparison to C10 by about .5 inches. Will go with shim and drill out as others have done using stock rocker. Adjust ride height with lowering arms if needed. Plan to measure head stock change in degrees also as a curiosity.....

Offline oldsmoboat

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2018, 10:18:46 pm »
Might as well do emulators and springs in the front, too....
I mean, as long as your doing suspension.  :)

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2018, 11:09:20 pm »
Might as well do emulators and springs in the front, too....
I mean, as long as your doing suspension.  :)

Shear genius....  the end result is well worth it.
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Offline Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2018, 04:21:15 pm »
Well Sunday was the day. I have a parts C10. Used it to mock up C14 shock change over for bike I ride.

Bored C14 shock top bush. My C10 shock was offset to clutch lever side. I tried to duplicate this relationship by grinding more on that side of C14 shock for exact placement. In next final disassembly well take some more off as well.

Next using grease port as center, drilled C10 bushin/bolt to fit C14 shock bolt. The grease port was off center slightly to begin with interestingly. No way to compensate for it. Did drilling incrementally with Harbor Freight $13 bit set.  When I do actual final assembly on my ride bike will leave this bolt slightly loose allowing bush to find it's on "happy place", then will torque to C14 spec locking it in that place. It was no more than .125 inch off center anyway.

After drilling, chucked the C10 bush in drill press cutting bolt head with hack saw while spinning. Then cut threaded side off in same fashion. Lastly ground resulting hardened bush from 35 mm to approximate 30 mm to fit C14 shock.

Please note as I was using the threaded portion of C10 bolt/bush to anchor bush to drill press table surface, I only drilled to a 32mm depth. That to make sure threaded portion remained intact till final cut off. Also as C10 bush/bolt is hardened, I used step at bolt head and the threaded end step to start cut off points.

Cleaned all and assembled all with C10 linkage parts. My seat height has not been checked yet. Did check shocks. C14 was one inch longer. Did check steering head angle also. Old shock had head angle was at 27.5 degrees. Post C14 shock change over, head angle was still at 27.5, no change. Was surprised by this. So would be safe say rake and trail were not affected appreciable to the one inch difference shock length at change over. Interesting. I was surprised here!

Of note, learned a neat "new to me" trick in this process. To level and squared a drill press table. One only need bend a coat hanger chucked in drill press to make a compass of sorts.  Turning chuck by hand leveling table to touch all points of coat hanger end and waala! Leveled & squared press table to chuck with no fuss. Damn wish I knew that long ago. Thanks internet. 64 years and still learning!

I know fellow COGERs have done this process before. Looked a lot of posts in prep, as well with everyone's help here in. This was a fairly straight forward process. The most labor intensive and time consuming is drilling incrementally and grinding with trial fits, as well final sanding to dress and square all mating surfaces.

Now if I may ask, how has everyone dealt with side and center stands? Not sure there is enough room on closed positions to weld any long enough extensions. But that will be another Sunday perhaps. Thanks again all.

Offline Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2018, 04:27:05 pm »
Useful trick for this procedure above! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdQ7Uo7oG7I

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2018, 06:47:47 pm »
Cleaned all and assembled all with C10 linkage parts. My seat height has not been checked yet. Did check shocks. C14 was one inch longer. Did check steering head angle also. Old shock had head angle was at 27.5 degrees. Post C14 shock change over, head angle was still at 27.5, no change. Was surprised by this. So would be safe say rake and trail were not affected appreciable to the one inch difference shock length at change over. Interesting. I was surprised here!

Lee, I don't think there will be a lot of head angle change, but I have a thought that might explain why the head angle didn't change..

  Adding a longer shock has to raise the rear of the bike, "unless" you didn't adjust something..,,,,,,
     Is it possible your C-10 shock had air pressure in it, and the C-14 Shock had no preload dialed in?
    If yes, because you have more spring sag with the C-14 shock, the seat height may be close to the C-10 set up..

Great idea on leveling the Drill Press table!

Update; Not sure how your measuring your head angle change? I did quick/rough test..
            With my bike on center stand, I placed a digital angle finder on my front fork, and jacked the front of the bike
              up and down.   With both wheels not touching the ground, & bike rocking on center stand; the rear goes up
              about 1" when front is lowered about 1"..
           I think that moving the rear only (1"), would give me about 1/2* of change at the front?
                     
            Makes me suspect your seat height is the same as with the C-10 shock, because the rear is sagging more than
            it did with the C-10 shock.    I suggest adding preload and raise the rear.
              If you do so, look to see if you get change in the Head angle..

Hope this helps, Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 08:44:21 pm by connie_rider »
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Offline Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2018, 11:44:07 pm »
Thanks for info Ted.

Was able to get back to shock project today. Played around with the C14 shock on C10. Black knob did not change headstock angle measurably with stock C10 arms attached to stock C10 rocker. Seat height was way too high for my comfort though. Whether aired or not
(did not check it beyond length measure) C10 shock was just 1 inch shorter than C14 shock when I removed it. I still am having trouble reconciling lack of head angle change initially. I am thinking I may have made a measurement error. All measure was done with bike off center stand and held by handle bar end. But.........

Today I used a 3-position after market lengthening arm (off a ZX12 I believe) to lower seat height. Using best low seat was in 8 inch long hole position. The rear tire touched ground on stand and headstock angle went to 32 degrees in held by handlebar position. Did not like this on face value.

The first hole position would have been stock C10 arm length. So next used middle hole at 7 & 5/8ths inch position. This gave tolerable seat height and 30 degrees at headstock. Probably ok but not stock specs.

So next I raised fork tubes in triple trees by 3/4 inch. This gave even better seating position and 28 degrees at headstock. Now very close to stock start spec and closer on seat height. Believe this to be good. Side stand and center stand are now good without mods too. Better still.

Next plan is to cycle fork through full shock travel to make sure nothing is making contact at full compression. If no issue there I will then proceed to transfer all changes from my mock up non runner C10 to what I ride daily.

If test rides are satisfactory then that will be close. I still find this type of shock linkage perplexing. But through trial and hopefully few errors think I will get the hang of it.

I know others have been here before. But kind of wanted to leave a detail of process for others in future. I paid $54 for C14 shock with under 20k miles on Ebay. This makes this a cost effective swap in the extreme. I only looked at shocks where seller listed mileage.

If test rides are satisfactory will have the stock C10 arms lengthened to 7 & 5/8s via heli-arc weld up. Stock they are 7 & 1/4. So a 3/8 splice should do it. That should finish this project for well under $100.

If any one sees an issue with fork raising or anything else feel free to shout out. It will be a week or so before I get to check this out further as back to work is slowing the next step in process to a hold till time allows.

Thanks all for comments and advice!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:51:11 pm by Lee »

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2018, 12:52:35 pm »
Lee, I started to do a similar thing to a C-10 but opted to use the Lowering Rocker as it was easier.
   (ie: I already had a Norm Soucy 1 1/2" Lowering Rrocker to use)

  I have some C-10 Links that you can have. (cut your extension's from them)

Sending you a PM.

I see we're both South Central.
I'm in Houston / where are you located?

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 05:51:14 pm by connie_rider »
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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2018, 03:51:36 pm »
I am not inseam challenged and decided to leave the ride height 1 -1/2" taller. I like the increased steering angle. Bike turns in much more quickly now. Great info on the lowering link arms not clearing the C14 shock. Won't waste my money on those if I do decide to go back to the stock ride height.
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Offline Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2018, 05:44:08 pm »
Ted

So you like lengthened rocker better than doing longer links?

If I  am understanding and assuming correctly, you must have welded two rockers to make a longer one?

Yes can see I will have to give you more than one call on my return from travel next week.

Thanks again on formula offer, ph#, and C10 part offer. Will make use of all surely.

Mercer Lee

Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2018, 06:00:58 pm »
No, I had a (1 1/2") Norm Soucy Lowering Rocker that I had bought to lower my bike previously.
     At that time I had the stock shock on it.
     The bike was too low for me, so I removed it.

When I installed the C-14 Shock I realized that using the Rocker would made the bike stock height.
So, I installed it with the C-14 shock.....

Norm also sells Lowering Links that should lower the bike lower than stock.

NOTE: The Norm Soucy Lowering Rocker is not lengthened.
           It is built with the center hole in a higher position..

Give me a call when you get home.

Ride safe, Ted
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Offline Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2018, 06:16:02 pm »
Ted,
Disregard: "If I  am understanding and assuming correctly, you must have welded two rockers to make a longer one?"

Reread your message. Understand where your  longer rocker came from now. I misread your statement on source.
Mercer Lee

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2018, 12:38:17 am »
Not a problem.
Interested in your project... Trying to supply what information I can.

Ride safe, Ted
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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2018, 10:55:55 pm »
Sounds like you're figgerin' it out...   :beerchug:     :great:

I purchased a bushing that was close to spec, and shortened it to fit... about 2mm iirc.
I don't have a zerk on it, but every other oil change I repack the bearings, and it works
out just fine... 

With my Centerstand, I can deploy it with the bike upright, but leaning on the side stand.
No mods necessary.  My rear shock is set at 7-8 clicks for one up.  Max for two up.
You can't even compare the ride difference.  Night and day.  Great bang for the buck mod
if you're willing to put in the time and energy.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: C10 to C14 rear shock question?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2018, 04:14:52 pm »
Marty, with your 7-8 click setting, can you check your spring sag?
   I've been trying to learn about setting spring sag and your numbers will help me.

Using info I found on YouTube, {to be anywhere near what they suggest}, I have a lot more preload set than you.
I think I have about 18 clicks...

Ride safe, Ted
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