Author Topic: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock  (Read 5105 times)

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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2013, 02:20:44 am »
Sly - I meant the bike was about 1/2" taller - the shock isn't that much longer, but iirc from when I helped Norm work out the math on the link hole location, the difference worked out to be a 2.5:1  -

  I'd still like to see the front end looked at... Steve
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Offline Slybones

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2013, 03:47:23 am »
Well Steve your gonna have to help understand that one... And as I understand it.

Back on the old days when there were 2 shocks on each side, and attached directly to the swingarm and the frame, one inch in swingarm/tire movement due to a bump would directly be one inch of shock movement.

Now days they have these monoshocks with the center link and dog bones, which provide a lever action. Now the suspension designers can change the ratio of swingarm movement to shock movement, opposed to having a direct one to one movement.  So I see how some of that trig stuff as 2linby called it comes into play during dynamic movement over bump.

What does that have to do with this.... Here we are not talking about going over a bump. We are talking about a static condition, and the ( for lack of a better term ) default static condition at that. How the bike sits on flat pavement not moving. In this case where someone just changes the shock, and ther rear tire is the same, the swingarm is the same, the frame mounting locations is the same, the center link is the same, the dog bones are the same, etc I am not seeing how the location of the hole in the center link is moving. The height of the rear axle from the ground is the same. With all else being the same I dont see, I dont see how that hole location moved.  All that I see that has changed is the rear subframe / seat height is pushed up by the additional length of the shock.  Which is nothing. Which is my most of us are reporting no noticeable change. I dont this is because we all just missed it, or were too tall to notice etc.  Heck, I have used both the stock size rear tire and the wing size rear tire and I noticed that height difference. If the ZZR shock height difference was that much I think many more would be reporting it, and there would be fewer like me wondering WTF.

So please educate me on why this is all wrong.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 03:49:05 am by Slybones »
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2013, 01:04:42 pm »
Wow Sly, relax  - I never said anyone is all wrong - in fact all I was trying to point out was to check the front end  ???

If you look at it this way, rather than looking at it from the seat position look at the swingarm (like the bike is on the center stand) - you can readily see that the extra shock length means the shock "rocker" has to angle downward more to attach to the longer shock. That in turn pulls the swingarm down. If the swingarm had moved downward, let's say 1/4" at the dog bone attachment, that amount of movement needs to be multiplied by the length from the attachment outward to the rear axle, and the height measurement difference is taken there. . It's been a long time, but I seem to recall the amount of movement was about 2.5X. If you look at the change in the hole location of norms lowering rockers, you'll see the 1.5" lowering rocker had a hole location change of .625".  HTH, Steve
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Offline worncog

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2013, 01:39:30 pm »
Side note I believe its more that just drilling and tapping the bolt head. I am thinking this alone, would put grease between the bolt and the inside the bushing. Not sure this is where we want the greese. Dont we want the grease on the needle bearings and the outer part of the bushing? In this case we need to modify the bushing also. And in such a way as the hole from the drilled/tapped bolt will align with the bushing mod to allow grease all the way into the needle bearings. This not correct?

Seems like it. If you go back to my picture of the two bolts, you will see the stock connne bolt also acts as the bushing and the grease gets all the way to the needle bearings. AND on the ZZR dont they have the zerk on the center link so the grease is applied to the needle bearings from the outside, versus up from the inside like the Connie arrangement, which is why the ZZR bushing and bolt are way they are.

If one is going to drill the bolt and thread it for zerk installation, they will also need to cross-drill the bushing to have an effective path for the grease to reach the needle bearing. And yes, the ZZR bolt & bushing combination once torqued, become fixed/non-rotational and effectively operate in the same manner as the original C-10 shouldered bolt. The drilling and threading are the most time consuming parts of this modification IMO. 

I agree that your disassembly method Slybones is probably the most effective at getting a uniform fill of grease on the needle bearings. I'm sure throughout the C-10 fleet, very few are actually using Moly as their high pressure grease. I know for a fact the local dealers don't...but that is another subject all together. :)

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Offline Slybones

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2013, 06:10:57 pm »
Wow Sly, relax  - I never said anyone is all wrong - in fact all I was trying to point out was to check the front end  ???

If you look at it this way, rather than looking at it from the seat position look at the swingarm (like the bike is on the center stand) - you can readily see that the extra shock length means the shock "rocker" has to angle downward more to attach to the longer shock. That in turn pulls the swingarm down. If the swingarm had moved downward, let's say 1/4" at the dog bone attachment, that amount of movement needs to be multiplied by the length from the attachment outward to the rear axle, and the height measurement difference is taken there. . It's been a long time, but I seem to recall the amount of movement was about 2.5X. If you look at the change in the hole location of norms lowering rockers, you'll see the 1.5" lowering rocker had a hole location change of .625".  HTH, Steve

I am relaxed. I just want to learn how it works. And I never said 'you' said it was all wrong. But what I said does differ from what your are saying, and I was asking you to explain it.

This still does not do it for me. That whole first part explains to me how the lever ratio part works. Like I was mentioning I see how this works to give a ratio of axle movement to shock movement. I will even accept from the calculations you did that its 2.5:1.  Versus old days of the shock being directly attached to the swingarm and this was 1:1. As mentioned this allows the suspension designers to have a lot more flexibility.

But were not talking about the bike on the center stand. Were are talking about taking the bike off the center stand and swinging a leg over it, when asking ourselves how much the seat height is moved. Which translates into how much more/less I am tippy toeing.

With the bike off the center stand, swingarm the same, rear tire the same, etc. my poor brain thinks the height of rear axle is the same. I dont see how this moved. And since the rocker is the same, the dog bones are the same, the frame is the same, etc. the ratio is the same and therefore the location of the hole is the same. 
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2013, 11:28:31 pm »
it all can be the same if the longer shock compresses more. HTH, Steve
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2013, 09:18:15 am »
it all can be the same if the longer shock compresses more. HTH, Steve
Good point. Maybe he should check his sag adjustment. He may have a much stiffer spring installed on that stock zzr shock.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2013, 01:20:57 pm »
you can cut the stock springs for free. I've written several posts about it in the past... Steve
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Offline GF-in-CA

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2013, 11:59:15 pm »
Late to the discussion, but had a few thoughts.

Any difference in the length of the two shocks is less important than what the ride height is with the shocks installed (Steve basically said as much).  A 1/4" difference in the free length is well within the adjustment range of either shock assuming the spring rates are roughly the same.  Setting the static sag should bring the ride height fairly close between the two.  The exception would be if the rider is too heavy for the ZZR spring, in which case the ZZR shock would probably ride lower than stock.  My impression of the stock shock was that it was stiffer than the ZZR shock at the higher pressures.  JMHO.

Airmonger, you didn't mention where you set the preload adjuster on the ZZR shock.  Backing off the preload will lower the rear end, so you might try that if you haven't already.  If that's OK then I would check to see if there is any binding in the shock linkage or anything else that would prevent the swingarm from moving freely.  Also, any chance that when you reassembled the forks that you increased the preload adjustment from before?  Increasing the fork preload will raise the front end and increase the ride height.

A stiffer spring won't change the free length of the shock.  The shock would need to be taken apart to modify the stop inside (not likely) or the lower end clevis would need to be modified to increase the free length (again, not likely).  I haven't found anyone who sells a stiffer spring for the ZZR, though someone could have one custom made, so I guess it is possible that someone could have put a stiffer spring in, but I don't think it is likely.  A stiffer spring would affect the sag setting as Steve and Mike said, but that is adjustable.  Again, JMHO.

HTH,
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:03:08 am by GF-in-CA »
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Offline fred-houston

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2013, 07:49:18 pm »
Hate to bring up an old subject, but I am a bit confused.

I am installing a ZZR1200 Shock on a 99 C10.  The ZZR shock came with the lower and upper bolt, and there is a bushing on the upper mount of the shock.  The lower mount only has the ZZR bolt.  I understand having to file the top, and I understand the washers on the lower mount, but looking at the parts fish on Ron Ayers I can not find that lower bushing.  I did find a sleeve 42036-1077 and a bearing 92046A-1237, is this what a need for the lower part of the shock?

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Offline AirMonger

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2013, 01:34:39 pm »
Fred, if memory serves me you only need the sleeve. I lucked out an got the entire linkage however the sleeve was the only part I used from the ZZR linkage. Hope that helps.
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Offline fred-houston

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Re: Who' links, what links? ZZR Shock
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2013, 04:22:02 pm »
After looking at the fish after posting this, I finally figured out that I was looking in the wrong location.  I did notice that sleeve on the link and did order it.

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