Author Topic: Yet another suspension rebuild (Read 1295 times)

batboy · « **Reply #25 on:** October 09, 2018, 12:03:16 am »

Murph's sent me a short and to the point message. There are no shocks in stock and the distributor does not know when they'll be available again.

I guess just to get me through fall, I'll refill the shock, and ride it that way until Thanksgiving, and then find a permanent solution over the winter.

MAN OF BLUES · « **Reply #26 on:** October 09, 2018, 12:18:55 am »

Quote from: batboy on October 09, 2018, 12:03:16 am

Murph's sent me a short and to the point message. There are no shocks in stock and the distributor does not know when they'll be available again.

I guess just to get me through fall, I'll refill the shock, and ride it that way until Thanksgiving, and then find a permanent solution over the winter.

you really don't read the stuff people hand you like I did in my last post, do you...?

you had a $250 shock and rocker assembly, I linked there...

meh... whatever...

batboy · « **Reply #27 on:** October 09, 2018, 01:32:08 am »

MOB, I saw the link, thanks for posting it. I went to the link earlier and checked it out. The C-14 shock raises the bike considerably, so even with the Soucy part it will be higher than what the bike is right now. I seriously considered it, but I decided it's not the right path for me at this time.

Pbfoot · « **Reply #28 on:** October 09, 2018, 02:29:56 am »

Quote from: batboy on October 09, 2018, 01:32:08 am

MOB, I saw the link, thanks for posting it. I went to the link earlier and checked it out. The C-14 shock raises the bike considerably, so even with the Soucy part it will be higher than what the bike is right now. I seriously considered it, but I decided it's not the right path for me at this time.

The lowering link with the C14 shock gives you stock ride height.

connie_rider · « **Reply #29 on:** October 09, 2018, 02:41:47 am »

Norm offers the rockers in various drop's.
I think the cost is $200 {includes new bearings}.

If you use a C-14 shock, his 1 1/2" rocker would make the bike approx. stock height.
I have a C-14 shock and a 1 1/2" rocker on my C-10.

His 2" rocker should lower the bike approx. 1/2".
Not sure what drop's he offers.
Only he can confirm what steps he offers...
If this is of interest to anyone , contact him.
Here is his up to date info: sanleonster@gmail.com
phone# (281) 339-1156

Ride safe, Ted

fred-houston · « **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2018, 03:18:40 pm »

Quote from: batboy on October 08, 2018, 07:34:21 pm

Well, considering this is the first time I've worked on a motorcycle rear shock, I must honestly say I personally don't know. But, I stayed up late for a couple of evenings searching through forum discussions. People say the 465 will fit. Others say the C-14 shock and ZZR shock will not. I think there was a mention that Soucy's links works with the C-14 shock, but Soupy's don't. Those names being so similar and both made lowering links, that can't be a coincidence. So, I'm trusting COG members when they said the 465 plays nice with my lowering links. Of course, I can't find that particular post right now. However, I think most of you are very trustworthy from what I've seen, Salute!

I'll give you the straight scoop as I have had everyone of the shocks you mentioned on one of my C-10's. Out of the box the 465 will fit, no problems. The ZZR and the C-14 shock will fit with some very minor modifications. I found with the C-14 shock you will probably want to go with a lowering link, and the Soucy's link is a straight switch out. I have not used Soupy's because I already found a Soucy's to install.

All the above mentioned shocks are far better than stock. To me the ZZR was too soft, the Progressive was better, but not enough for my 300 pound plus frame, I like the C-14 best out of the three. That is my opinion, you will find other that will disagree with that. I currently have a custom Cogent Dynamics Inc rebuilt C-14 shock that I am going to install. I have yet to put any miles on it so I can not offer a opinion, but I am willing to bet it will be the best yet because it was built for my weight. https://www.motocd.com/

Daytona_Mike · « **Reply #31 on:** October 11, 2018, 04:23:36 pm »

Great info Fred. I too went through several different shocks on my C10 and you are correct about the ZZR shock - the spring is too soft even for me (230lbs) The 465 is about as good as it gets for the money.
Cogent Dynamics (good company) did my KLR650 suspension (MOAB shock on the rear-Sonics and emulators up front) which transformed the horrible stock suspension (KLR stock suspension was about the WORST I have ever ridden on any bike) .

Another option I never tried (a little pricey but you get a high quality fully adjustable shock) is the Wilburs
https://tinyurl.com/yamcyxzs

I bet the Cogent Dynamics rebuilt C14 shock (re-sprung for your weight I assume) will be even better or as good as it gets. What did they charge you to do that shock may I ask?

batboy · « **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2018, 12:28:45 pm »

Thanks for all the info Fred and Mike. It's good to hear a comparison from folks that have experience with all the options. The Wilburs shock from Europe looks interesting. Not sure what the exchange rate is from dollars to euros, but they look expensive and you have to deal with shipping and customs from across the pond.

I can't find a Progressive Suspensions 465-series (part # 465-1155B) shock in stock anywhere (this is what Murph's sold). I found several sites that had it listed as being in stock, but after I called or emailed them, I found out they were not available. The manufacturer probably discontinued the model that fits the C-10.

The C-14 shock from the second generation Concours seems like the next best shock for the C-10 when you rummage through the used parts bin. But, the main problem for me is that the shock is too tall for the C-10 and the Soupy lowering links interfere with the external spring. Even when you can find the Soucy link (also discontinued), the bike would still be taller than what I have now (1.5" lower than stock). Ted says the Soucy link puts the C-14 shock right at stock height, that would put me back on my tiptoes.

That leaves the ZZR1200 shock (which is what I decided to get). The ZZR1200 is readily available and cheap. While about a 1/4" taller than stock, but with lowered forks and a low profile 17" rear tire, my bike would still be about 1/2" lower than stock (without Soupy's lowering links). I have looked at as many photos as possible showing the installed ZZR1200 shock on a Concours 1000. It appears to me that my Soupy's lowering links will work with some minor tweaking. If not, once I get a lower seat, I should be back to flat-footing it again.

About the only downside to the ZZR1200 shock I've heard is the spring rate is a little light (but still better than stock). I weigh in at 190 lbs. and plan to get lighter weight mufflers and battery, so perhaps the springs will be tolerable. Again, it's still better than a working stock shock and as a reminder, my current shock leaks, so anything will be better than what I currently have now. I found a low mileage ZZR1200 shock that I ordered for $75.

SHORT VERSION: The Progressive 465-series shock is unavailable and C-14 shock is too tall. So, I bought a ZZR1200 shock instead.

Daytona_Mike · « **Reply #33 on:** October 12, 2018, 01:43:22 pm »

ZZR shock is a good option. Dont worry about that extra height..the spring is so soft that it will not raise the bike. As a matter of fact the bike will sag too much when you get on the bike so you will probably have to add all the preload you can to get the bike back up to where it should be even with your lowering links and lighter bike parts.
Another words.. your golden and you will really like that shock. Good choice and congrats. Let us know how you like it.

Bob_C_CT · « **Reply #34 on:** October 12, 2018, 02:36:05 pm »

Yea, I run the ZZR shock, it believe it added a little height over stock maybe 1/2". It is a little mushy but way better than stock, especially your stock.

who me? · « **Reply #35 on:** October 12, 2018, 03:16:42 pm »

Quote from: batboy on October 05, 2018, 12:10:25 pm

Daytona Mike, The progressive 465 series shock is what Murph's sell, right? If this OEM shock won't hold air pressure, I'm definitely getting the 465 shock. Does the replacement 465 shock use air pressure too? The C-14 shock is not an option for me, because I have Soupy's lowering links that will interfere with the spring on the C-14 shock.

Bob, thanks for the air pump info. I hear you loud and clear about not wanting to strip out the fine threads. That's what kept me from using the impact up to this point. I ate a bowl of Wheaties this morning, so I'll try using the manual method one more time before my flabby arm muscles get too tired. By golly, 20 years ago when I was younger and stronger, I could have done this one handed... mumble mumble.

EDIT: Okay, I got the first fork cap back on. I think the Wheaties helped. Now to drain the oil from the other fork and see if I can make an even bigger mess than the first fork. Maybe I'll try the Homer Simpson breakfast to give me strength on the next fork cap (i.e. donuts).

The progressive 465 is the one Murph sells No it doesnt use air Ive had mine on with the soupys lowering links with no issues for about a year

batboy · « **Reply #36 on:** October 12, 2018, 05:10:30 pm »

Do we all agree the ZZR1200 shock will be better than the stock 30 year old C-10 shock with zero air pressure?

I need to go back through the topics about the ZZR1200 shock. I know the shock itself is not serviceable, but I thought someone had installed a different spring?

Well, I found a thread by Daytona Mike where he was looking to install a different spring. Does not look like anything was ever done though other than to conclude the ZZR shock cannot be revalved, so thus is not the best shock to use. Oh well, the ZZR shock I ordered is on the way.

I would get a Progressive 465 series shock if there were any available. Looks like they're history. The C-14 shock is either too tall or I'm too short. Maybe a little of both. So it basically boiled down to the frugal ZZR1200 shock.

Bob_C_CT · « **Reply #37 on:** October 12, 2018, 06:17:35 pm »

You will be happy with it. Cruising the shock rides real nice. I don’t have it cranked up all the way and is very compliant in twisters and two up.

connie_rider · « **Reply #38 on:** October 23, 2018, 01:59:13 pm »

Did your ZZR Shock arrive?
Any news??

Ride safe, Ted

batboy · « **Reply #39 on:** October 23, 2018, 03:33:24 pm »

I just got it yesterday. I thought it included mounting hardware, which I guess it did since the top and bottom bolts and nuts were on the ZZR1200 shock I bought. But, the bushing was not. I have a new Kawasaki shock sleeve bushing on order, but it'll be another week. Right now, I'm attempting to modify the C-10 lower shock bushing to use until the new one arrives.

I took a photo of the stock shock compared to the ZZR1200 shock. They are exactly the same length bolt hole eye to bolt hole eye (I measured twice). Someone posted on the forum several years ago that the stock was 13 inches and the ZZR1200 was 13-1/4 inches. Looks like they're both 13-1/4 inches to me (check out photo).

The ZZR spring seems very stout to me, but I haven't installed it yet. The spring wire is 12mm and the overall installed length is 8 inches and the coil spring diameter is 3 inches. The spring can be removed if you use a strut spring compressors (can be rented for free at Autozone). There's a spacer with a slot on the cleavis end of the shock that pulls out once the spring is compressed. There's a YouTube video that shows how to do it. I don't know the spring rate of the ZZR1200 shock spring, but there are a bunch of springs available if a heavier duty spring is needed. For now, I'm going to use what's on the shock and decide if I'm happy or if I need a better spring.

Oh yeah, I know people said in the past that Soupy's lowering links won't work with the ZZR1200 shock because it'll hit the spring. Looks like I should be able to get it to work, but I need to have the shock mounted on the bike first before I know for sure. The stock shock rubber bellows and the ZZR1200 shock spring are nearly the same diameter. If all else fails, I can shim the top of the lowering link a bit since the heim joint on the upper end of the link will allow a slight angle.

batboy · « **Reply #40 on:** October 24, 2018, 06:20:18 pm »

If you plan to try swapping in a ZZR1200 shock, make sure you get the bottom bushing and bolt. I was able to modify the C-10 bushing, but it was a lot of work. I have a new bushing on the way, so I'll swap in the new for the temporary one I made. You will also lose the grease zerk for the bottom shock mount. I put some grease on the bushing when I installed the shock and will just have to manually grease the bushing every so often.

I got the ZZR1200 shock installed, but I'm still working on the lowering links. The Soupy's links do barely hit the shock spring. So, that much is true. But, looks like I can cut down the upper link mounting spacer the thickness of a washer and then add a washer onto the inside of the link's heim joint to shim it out about 1mm. Not sure that will be enough, but it's best to take little steps when tweaking things.

connie_rider · « **Reply #41 on:** October 24, 2018, 08:04:57 pm »

Sounds like your on the right track..
When you do the mods, be sure to check the Center stand to see if it clears the Links when the stand is up and weight is on/off the rear tire.
When I did mine, I thought I was done.
Got a surprise when I raised the center stand.

Ride safe, Ted

batboy · « **Reply #42 on:** October 24, 2018, 10:59:06 pm »

Ok, I have the Soupy lowering links installed and there is no interference. I used 5 flat washers (each are 2mm thick) on the top of each link. The spacer is 10mm thick and normally goes to the outside of the upper link. Instead of using the spacer, I put 3 washers on the outer side and 2 on the inner side. Now the top of the link is shimmed out enough to keep the lowering link from touching the shock spring. Looks good, I'll get everything torqued down and fairing back together tomorrow. Can't wait to take a test ride.

Regarding the center stand. It's worthless, I might remove it. By worthless, I mean had a hard time putting the bike on the center stand even before I lowered the bike. But, now that it's lowered, it's impossible to use.

connie_rider · « **Reply #43 on:** October 25, 2018, 02:06:39 pm »

I ran into the same problem when I lowered my C-14.
So I shortened the center stand.
Problem solved..

Ride safe, Ted

batboy · « **Reply #44 on:** October 25, 2018, 02:54:45 pm »

The only time (for me) the center stand would be handy is out on the road. Otherwise at home I can lift the bike with a small low-profile floor jack no problem. The front tip over bars are a great place to put jack stands by the way (I duct taped a piece of rubber onto each jack stand to prevent damaging the bars).

After reading several posts about cutting and rewelding the center stand, I considered doing it, but when you look at the stand it's tough to cut more than 1/2 inch from the legs without messing up the foot lever. If you cut the upper part, then it will interfere with the shock. Ted, how do you cut an inch off and still make the center stand functional? I'm assuming the foot lever will need to be repositioned and rewelded?

I'm looking at ways to lighten the bike and removing the center stand might be a way to lose 3 or 4 pounds. Besides, on a lowered C10, the center stand is often the first thing that scrapes when carving up the curves. I guess on road trips I could carry a small scissor jack in a saddle bag in case I need to replace a rear tire or something like that.

connie_rider · « **Reply #45 on:** October 25, 2018, 04:59:53 pm »

I shortened a C-14 center stand, not a C-10 stand, so I can't be sure about a C-10.
I think you have to remove the material on a C-10 stand below the crossover brace.
If it is not possible to remove enough material there, it should be possible to replace the crossover brace with a smaller diameter or different curvature brace.

I know this is a lot of effort, but I would go to whatever effort is required to keep my CS. {as they are very handy to me}..

NOTE: When Jim S installed his header, I think he had a removable CS..
I went to extremes to build a header that would fit and also keep the use of my CS.
As you intend to use a ZX-1000 header, your CS will not fit, and/or you might talk with Jim.

PS: Did you try fitting your ZX header while the plastic was off?

Ride safe, Ted

batboy · « **Reply #46 on:** October 25, 2018, 06:59:56 pm »

I did not do a real trial fitting of the exhaust header, but I did mock it up as much as possible without removing the stock head pipes. I have identified what needs to move and about how much. The lower part of the radiator needs to move towards the front at least an inch, etc. But, that's a different topic and a different thread.

I have the bike back together, but it's drizzling. Will probably have to wait until tomorrow for a test ride. The ZZR1200 shock might be physically the same length as the C-10 shock, but once it's on, it sure makes the bike stand a little taller (1/4"?). Maybe it's the spring which doesn't sag like the stock setup or I have too much pre-load or something. Good thing I got those lowering links to work.

For those that have the ZZR1200 shock, what are you using for pre-load and what setting did you use for rebound? I was going to try "2" on the rebound setting first, but I changed my mind and turned it to "3" instead. Is there a procedure for dialing in pre-load?

EDIT: I checked with the ZZR forum and most solo riders use the 2 setting for rebound.

connie_rider · « **Reply #47 on:** October 25, 2018, 10:14:27 pm »

There are many video's on how to set suspension sag.
I like the way it is explained here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtzTyCKh5fY

Ride safe, Ted

batboy · « **Reply #48 on:** October 26, 2018, 09:19:59 pm »

I changed the rebound setting back to "2" and I have the pre-load set to "3" (that's the middle setting and most people on the ZZR forum set pre-load at 3 or 4). I watched that video on how to set sag, but I had no assistant to help me, The sun finally peeked through the clouds, so I took a quick test ride. I was expecting a better ride, but the ZZR1200 shock performed even better than expected. For $75, this ZZR1200 shock is definitely a frugal mod. I'll mess around a bit more on pre-load, but I think the current settings are real close. Between the shock and the new fork springs/oil refill, I'm quite pleased. I went for a second test ride that ended up being 30 miles. I should be done with suspension for now.

Kelly E · « **Reply #49 on:** October 27, 2018, 01:49:24 am »

Quote from: batboy on October 26, 2018, 09:19:59 pm

I changed the rebound setting back to "2" and I have the pre-load set to "3" (that's the middle setting and most people on the ZZR forum set pre-load at 3 or 4). I watched that video on how to set sag, but I had no assistant to help me, The sun finally peeked through the clouds, so I took a quick test ride. I was expecting a better ride, but the ZZR1200 shock performed even better than expected. For $75, this ZZR1200 shock is definitely a frugal mod. I'll mess around a bit more on pre-load, but I think the current settings are real close. Between the shock and the new fork springs/oil refill, I'm quite pleased. I went for a second test ride that ended up being 30 miles. I should be done with suspension for now.

Those are the same settings that I use on my ZZR shock. Even mid-corner bumps don't disturb the bike at all. I only weigh 130# but ride a little harder than most. I am very pleased with my $50 shock. The only other thing I bought was the bushing because I didn't have my lathe yet but I had the right bolt.

I might be able to set sag tomorrow just to see how close I am.