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91 C 10 fork cap hex is rounded off, advice needed

R

roadisattva

Bicycle


So my 91 I got running this last spring has a leaky fork seal and I want to clean up the seal with a thin plastic or cardboard wiper and top up the fluid before a more major service over the winter.  I tapped on a 19mm socket that I ground the chamfer off of just like I learned about from MOB concerning my final drive fill plug. It felt for a moment that it might come loose but no luck.  So I have a replacement cap with a good hex that came right off my magical parts bike.



Any thoughts on this removal?  I am thinking to do it in place without removing the fork will take some careful carving with a dremel to make a smaller socket fit.  Maybe some heat on the fork.  I loosened up all the upper pinch bolts and have the right handlebar off as you can see. And yes I let the air out of the forks.
 
Wow..
That's a mess for sure...
That pinch bolt doesn't look loose to me in that photo..

You are gonna have to create a new hex somehow... when you do, and can get a good hex socket to fit, do the following...

Completely remove the top pinch bolts, take them out...
Pound a flat bladed screwdriver down into the slit in the clamp from the top, to further spread that clamp a bit, and leave it in place until the plug comes out, very important to keep that clamp spread...

Don't just start heating it up yet,  look down near the bottom tripple tree, and unclamp the ring clamps that hold the air crossover tube between the forks, ccompletely, and pry that assembly upwards to expose the holes in the fork tubes, this will allow air to escape if you apply heat to the tube.

Pouring solvents and rust remedies down from the top won't help, as the oring is sealing above the threads... so that will never reach the threads...


I've used various methods to get this plug out prior to ever damaging the hex, my techniques consisted of completely removing the top tripple tree, and the tire and brakes and such, and dropped the bottom tree with tubes installed, from the bike,
Inverted the forks, and clamped the bottom tree in a vice overnight, to allow the oil to reach the internal threads, and carefully applied heat directly to the tube where the threads exist before attempting to remove the plug.

No matter what, you may never get that one out, it just doesn't look good...  bummer.
 
Thinking out loud here(not my best thing to do) Can you swap the fork leg out with the one off the parts bike?
 
roadisattva, I'm in agreement with MOB.  (OMG, did I say that?? Ohhh, the shame!)
Follow his steps and loosen the pinch bolts..

NOTE: Loosening the pinch bolts should always be done before removing the cap.

Only thing I would add to what MOB sed would be;; tap on the O.D. of the fork tube with a soft hammer.
Might help break corrosion loose.
If all else fails,,, you might have to get an old fashioned pipe wrench to get it to turn...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: "Who Me".... Why didn't we think of that.  :-[
      In the end, that might be the simplest fix.
 
connie_rider said:
roadisattva, I'm in agreement with MOB.  (OMG, did I say that?? Ohhh, the shame!)
Follow his steps and loosen the pinch bolts..

NOTE: Loosening the pinch bolts should always be done before removing the cap.

Only thing I would add to what MOB sed would be;; tap on the O.D. of the fork tube with a soft hammer.
Might help break corrosion loose.
If all else fails,,, you might have to get an old fashioned pipe wrench to get it to turn...

Ride safe, Ted

PS: "Who Me".... Why didn't we think of that.  :-[
      In the end, that might be the simplest fix.
Click to expand...

Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Not gonna happen.

Inverting, and heat, off the bike, with the tripple tree totally removed...
(I found that loosening the bolts still doesn't do the same, all clamping force on the tube there must be removed, thus my screwdriver slit spreading part.)

But in the end, he may end up doing a fork swap, if so, remove both caps, clean the threads on the tubes, and caps, and coaut them with grease...
So it don't happen again
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Click to expand...
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.  :-X <walks away whistling>
 
IF I were doing it, and had to carve a new head on the thing to get a wrench on it, I would not go to the trouble of trying to do a hex.  I'd get a square "farmer" socket, the kind used on old-style square nuts, and carve a square head on the thing to match it.  Much easier than trying to do a symmetrical hex, and you just about can't strip a square.

Plus heat.

And maybe penetrating oil.

And cursing, lots of cursing.

But that's just me.
 
JPavlis_CA said:
MAN OF BLUES said:
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Click to expand...
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.  :-X <walks away whistling>
Click to expand...


Between you and I, I will admit it would have been one of my first choices if all else failed, and I was going to suggest it.... but felt that my confidence level, and. Level of tools handy, probably would not be the same as the o/p, and I refrained, simply because I do this kinda stuff all the time, on stuff I own... didn't want to chance someone else doing it...

Nosmo,
As for making a "square" knob to grip on, use caution.... if you have ever seen the bottom of that plug, there is a hollow area there, directly under the hex...
If you chop that hex down too far, the wall thickness and cross section will be reduced significantly, and that knob might shear completely off... then the real fun begins.
I also noted as the oring sits above the threads, and fits tight.. penetrating solvents will never reach the threads... but, I have used PB Blaster on the top, and basically filled the recess, and allowed it to soak... it may have assisted in breaking the corrosion between the top o.d. of the plug, and the fork tube, but I know it never made it past that oring.
 
It's been a long time since I've seen the  pre-93 forks... isn't that plug aluminium? (that's for our Brit readers).

A good PB Blaster soak, a couple of 1/8" relief holes and judicious use of force on the edge of the hole with a drift and a BFH should loosen it enough to spin it off with vice-grips. Like you said, the corrosion should be at the top, not below the o-ring.

The spring pressure might be a problem - may need to find a way to push against it.

Hell, worst case, I'd break out my Dremel and cut it out and contact the Wizard for a replacement.  :rotflmao:
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
JPavlis_CA said:
MAN OF BLUES said:
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Click to expand...
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.  :-X <walks away whistling>
Click to expand...


Between you and I, I will admit it would have been one of my first choices if all else failed, and I was going to suggest it.... but felt that my confidence level, and. Level of tools handy, probably would not be the same as the o/p, and I refrained, simply because I do this kinda stuff all the time, on stuff I own... didn't want to chance someone else doing it...

Nosmo,
As for making a "square" knob to grip on, use caution.... if you have ever seen the bottom of that plug, there is a hollow area there, directly under the hex...
If you chop that hex down too far, the wall thickness and cross section will be reduced significantly, and that knob might shear completely off... then the real fun begins.
I also noted as the oring sits above the threads, and fits tight.. penetrating solvents will never reach the threads... but, I have used PB Blaster on the top, and basically filled the recess, and allowed it to soak... it may have assisted in breaking the corrosion between the top o.d. of the plug, and the fork tube, but I know it never made it past that oring.
Click to expand...

MOB, I didn't know all that stuff, as I've never had my tubes apart.  Good to know for when I do.  That's why you "da man" and I'm just a Connie driver.  :great:
 
A bunch of great thoughts and brainpower on this.  thanks all, my intent here was to make the leaky fork somewhat functional for some more riding this fall here in Kansas.  I do have this great magical parts bike that the replacement fork cap unscrewed right out of without loosening the pinch bolts.  Fooled me into thinking that step was unneeded on the good bike. The parts bike has good looking forks with no visible leaks and I am sure I could swap the entire fork and triple out.  Heck even the front tire on the parts bike is better looking and newer. A PR2 I think. I will try removing the pinch bolts completely and using the wedgie method on the pinch gap after dremeling the hex alittle. But what I am afraid of is that the fork seal is truly bad and I should just rebuild the forks from the parts bike and reuse them on the 91. The 86 set of carbs and the petcock from the parts bike are functioning perfectly on the 91 so why wouldn't the set of forks, probably should just R&R them to keep the good magic going.
Can I just unbolt the calibers and remove the pinch bolts and drop the forks and axle assembly complete?. Maybe I should just do the swap...... slide the 86 forks and axle assembly right up there, change the fluid and ride on.  The rotors are just as good looking.
This 91 driver and the 86 parts bike have meshed well to get me riding and liking the ride. 
 
If the brakes and tire, and stuff are good on the donor bike, pulling the tire and assofiated parts, and both fork tubes, and installing them may be the wise choice... don't attempt to swap the stem assembly, and lower tripple tho, the bearings are worn in and the mateup of the donor tree may be, well, would be, an issue... forks and other stuff would be fine...

Best of luck on this, hope you get back on the road
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
JPavlis_CA said:
MAN OF BLUES said:
Heheheeh
Ain't seen a pre 94 fork in a while have you pal... pipe wrench?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Click to expand...
:rotflmao: That was great.  :))

Rich - as long as we're throwing stuff out there, how about drilling some "relief" holes around the perimeter of the cap.  :-X <walks away whistling>
Click to expand...


Between you and I, I will admit it would have been one of my first choices if all else failed, and I was going to suggest it.... but felt that my confidence level, and. Level of tools handy, probably would not be the same as the o/p, and I refrained, simply because I do this kinda stuff all the time, on stuff I own... didn't want to chance someone else doing it...

Nosmo,
As for making a "square" knob to grip on, use caution.... if you have ever seen the bottom of that plug, there is a hollow area there, directly under the hex...
If you chop that hex down too far, the wall thickness and cross section will be reduced significantly, and that knob might shear completely off... then the real fun begins.
I also noted as the oring sits above the threads, and fits tight.. penetrating solvents will never reach the threads... but, I have used PB Blaster on the top, and basically filled the recess, and allowed it to soak... it may have assisted in breaking the corrosion between the top o.d. of the plug, and the fork tube, but I know it never made it past that oring.
Click to expand...

So with MOB and COG just keystrokes away, Harbor Freight just 4 miles away, the parts bike just inches away; well my confidence level is like my favorite generic quote from several action movies:    " I'm goin in"
 
roadisattva said:
So with MOB and COG just keystrokes away, Harbor Freight just 4 miles away, the parts bike just inches away; well my confidence level is like my favorite generic quote from several action movies:    " I'm goin in"
Click to expand...

So it'll be...

"Damnit, Jim!"

or maybe...

"Damnit.....  Janet"
 
Ok MOB, I had forgot the recesses on the earlier Connie Forks.
My oops.
Doubtful he can reshape the hex for the same reason...
If he does, I suspect the resulting OD would be too small and probably twist off.

Might be possible to drill 2 holes in the top section of the cap.
(Just outside of the original hex)
Drill and tap to mebbe 1/4 - 20.
Install 2 bolts in the holes with a support bar across the top.
Put a bar between the supported bolts and turn.

ie; Sorta use the bolts like a spanner wrench.

Ted
 
My main thought here was to just get the cap off , clean up the fork seal, put in some atf or 10w30 high mileage and ride some more this fall.
If I just drill a hole an put in fluid will the few chips that might escape just settle to the bottom? I could carefully clean and collect chips down to the last poke through at the bottom of the hole I drill in the boogered up cap.  I could drain and fill with a measured amount of fluid to get it close. I plan to reseal and add pvc spacers and proper fluid.  Even the amount of torque I put on the 19mm socket before the hex gave way would bend over two 1/4-20 screws I believe.

Thoughts on this get it back on the road for the fall scheme?
 
So the coffee is just kicking in and I have another thought.  Why not forget getting the cap out, just drain the fork, clean the seal lip in hope of slowing the leak and push in fluid with a large syringe through the drain. 
 
roadisattva said:
So the coffee is just kicking in and I have another thought.  Why not forget getting the cap out, just drain the fork, clean the seal lip in hope of slowing the leak and push in fluid with a large syringe through the drain.
Click to expand...

Eventually you'll have to get the cap off. Replacing the fork from the parts bike would be better to do.

When you tried to remove it previously, the pinch bolts were tight.
Loosening them probably/hopefully made it easier to turn.
You just need a way to grip the cap.

I think it's doubtful that you can reshape a hex or square on the existing stub.
So, I was trying to think of a way to explain how to build a tool to turn the cap.
Thus my thought on the spanner wrench/bolts.
I admit, NOT an ideal idea, but posted it to stir thoughts.

Personally, I'd just build a spanner and drill holes in the cap to match.
If the spanner is built right,,,, it will work better than trying to reshape the stub.

NOTE: Since the area below the O-ring has had oil on it, I suspect the corrosion is only above the O-ring.
  ie; When you washed the bike or rode in rain, water accumulated in the cavity and caused the corrosion.
          So,,,, blow out the cavity with high pressure air, and then fill the cavity with some light oil etc and let it set.
          Might help, and definitely won't hurt..

Last; If the cap doesn't turn after all of this, replace the fork.

Ride safe, Ted



 
The various procedures I already outlined are what I would do, on a customers bike, to preclude further damages, and laborious aftermath repairs.

Trying to reshape a hex into a square invlves removing a LOT of metal, simply shaping the existing hex to a smaller hex, does not...
Geometry.... draw a hex, and then draw a square that fits inside the hex.... compare that to a hex within a hex.... getting the picture yet?

As far as drilling thru the cap, any metal chips will require a complete disassembly of the forks, internally, as in pulling all the guts out, including the internal sliders... which are in real short supply these days... then everything needs flushed, and cleaned and reinstalled...and filled to the correct level with fluid...

This ain't happening easily, nor can the fluid be changed and height measured without doing it from the top.. simply a waste of efforts.
If ya gotta drill something, then start by first getting a hex shape formed on the nut.
Then start drilling 1/8" diameter holes, alongside the inner surface of the fork tube and only go as deep as the dimension you see on the good plug, that equals the depth to the middle of that o ring groove, no deeper... drill as many holes as it takes around the top perimeter of the plug, with the holes spaced as close as possible, ... then pour in some PB Blaster, or good penetrant... and let it sit.... then, as I previously directed, with the forks and bottom tree pulled off the bike and tree clamped in a vise, and forks inverted, heat the area the plug lives in, and have at it with a good wrench...


I say just install the donor forks and be done with it... :-[ ::) :-X

Then later, take the ruined one to someone who welds, have him weld a chunk of stock onto the bad plug, and use that to remove the plug, later...
 
Saw this Dont know if it would be small enough to get down in to where it needs to go But for 12 bucks may be worth a shot
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Gator-Grip-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Combination-3-8-in-Drive-6-Point-Socket-Set/999949198?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-MechanicsTools-_-999949198:Gator-Grip&CAWELAID=&kpid=999949198&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1737&k_clickID=7eec3f50-da16-4d59-bd50-efd44704366e
If your pressed for time go with MOB and swap the fork out then later you can deal with it and not be rushing to make a mistake (DAMHIK)
 
who me? said:
Saw this Dont know if it would be small enough to get down in to where it needs to go But for 12 bucks may be worth a shot
http://www.lowes.com/pd/Gator-Grip-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Combination-3-8-in-Drive-6-Point-Socket-Set/999949198?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-MechanicsTools-_-999949198:Gator-Grip&CAWELAID=&kpid=999949198&CAGPSPN=pla&store_code=1737&k_clickID=7eec3f50-da16-4d59-bd50-efd44704366e
If your pressed for time go with MOB and swap the fork out then later you can deal with it and not be rushing to make a mistake (DAMHIK)
Click to expand...

I destroyed 2 of those, on perfectly functional hexes, at a pal's house, trying to remove a stuck bolt for him... he had every permutation of "as seen on tv" miracle tool on hand, but didn't even have a good set of sockets, or a 12" breaker bar... I jumped on the bike, rode 30 miles each way and brought back correct sockets, and popped the bolt out in a second... the insult was I had the breakerbar, and every metric tool I could need on the bike.... just didn't have a good socket, and at 9p.m. on a Sunday out in bfe, it was the only choice for the sae bolt at hand... (oh, I called momma and directed her to bring the tools, which she knows well, and the location, and she told my to go pound salt.... well, that was putting it mildly..  :rotflmao:  )
 
I have a perfectly good set of forks for the early C10's, freshish oil and no issues.  Yours for the price of delivery.  PM if interested.
 
Wow Rob thanks for the great offer but I have a set on the 86 donor bike, just here to explore alternatives.  I want to get on this and document the fix with a pic or two, but the starter in my van quit in the driveway yesterday and I have to inhabit the undervan today. I will post my fix here.

Thanks all
 
I am way out of my element, and way late to the party, but I've used these things successfully several times to remove lug nuts that were rounded off.  If there is clearance to get the correct size on, they are made inside where they grip the hex head with a ground reverse spiral.  The harder you twist, the more they grip.  It doesn't matter if the hex is completely rounded off. Sooner or later, something has to give.  Just a suggestion.  If you try this and use an extension, make sure it's a good one.  I've twisted several cheap ones in two removing lug nuts.  For some reason, the idea of proper torque escapes tire shops in my area. 

http://www.lowes.com/pd/IRWIN-BOLT-GRIP-5-Pack-Bolt-Extractor-Set/50146292
http://www.harborfreight.com/9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-67894.html
 
I would take the fork out and stand it upside down for a day to let the fork oil seep into the threads.
Then dremel some grooves in the outer and use a chisel and hammer to break the cap loose.
 
"9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-6789"

I wonder what reason they call it metric?  Wouldn't "close-enough-to-work" work?  The fastener is toast anyway.

;)

Cal
 
Is there enough height to run a left hand thread die onto it? Die will bottom out. Keep applying pressure until cap breaks loose. Light hammer taps around outside of tube, as mentioned in earlier posts, will help break some corrosion loose.

I've not seen one of these forks in person, not sure if a die and socket would even fit...just my thought.
 
"9-pc-38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-socket-set-6789"

I wonder what reason they call it metric?  Wouldn't "close-enough-to-work" work?  The fastener is toast anyway.
Click to expand...

I really think "close enough" would work.  I have a set and can tell you that the harder you twist these suckers, the more they bite into the fastener.  Haven't had one slip yet.  I've had to beat fasteners out of them with a hammer and a drift to get them back out before.  If one would fit into the recess, I almost guarantee it would remove the fastener, rounded or not.  However, DO NOT USE CHEAP (READ HARBOR FREIGHT) extensions.  If the fastener is really stuck, you will break them.  Otherwise, I wish I'd found them sooner.  These are a purely mechanical means of gripping the fastener, unlike Gator Grip and such. 
 
Ted told me politely via PM that I was being a wuckfit,..... and he was right  :-[ :-[ :-[
No way ya can get a drift in there to hit.

I have a fork in pieces in front of me and unless its the valve side (which from the pic it isn't) it's not hollow so you can cut some flats on the center and maybe get it out that way. I still think yer gonna have to remove the fork and apply some heat to get that sucker out. Ally to steel corrosion is a mighty stickem. I have always lithium greased mine before fitting after fighting one some 15 years ago.
Good luck  :)
 
roadisattva said:


So my 91 I got running this last spring has a leaky fork seal and I want to clean up the seal with a thin plastic or cardboard wiper and top up the fluid before a more major service over the winter.  I tapped on a 19mm socket that I ground the chamfer off of just like I learned about from MOB concerning my final drive fill plug. It felt for a moment that it might come loose but no luck.  So I have a replacement cap with a good hex that came right off my magical parts bike.



Any thoughts on this removal?  I am thinking to do it in place without removing the fork will take some careful carving with a dremel to make a smaller socket fit.  Maybe some heat on the fork.  I loosened up all the upper pinch bolts and have the right handlebar off as you can see. And yes I let the air out of the forks.
Click to expand...


So with all the supposed tool opinions, and suggestions given so far, I just had to go back, and quote the original messege, and make sure people are seeing the pictures of the problem.. looking closely at the plug, the damaged one, and where it lives currently in its stuck position... also note the threaded projection on the top that the plastic cover screws onto...

Maybe now, the people that didn't read the iniial post, or have never looked at a pre 94 fork, get a better picture of the work area and tooling restrictions for fitment....


Carry on.
 
Easiest is still to replace the fork leg.

The reason the original hex gave way was.
  Corrosion on the O.D. of the cap and corrosion of the original hex.
  Pinch bolts were tight.

I don't think he can successfully grind a strong hex/square/flat on the damaged stud.
  (I'd personally build a spanner to do the job, but I have tools to do so, (and also go thru the shock.)
I think there is a chance the extractor tool will turn it, if;
  1) The upper pinch bolt bolts are loosened
  2) Wedge the groove a bit to be sure the upper triple tree clamp is as loose as it can be.
  3) Blow out as much corrosion as you can.
  4) Soak the pocket with penetrating oil for several days (as I feel most of the corrosion is above the O-ring).
  5) Pray softly, Curse loudy!!

But; Easiest is still to replace the fork leg.

Ride safe, Ted
 
I have been up north in Minnesota for the last few weeks and the great weather is keeping me here doing old house and farm chores on the daughters farm.  Thanks all for the ongoing discussion.  The extractor sockets sound like a great idea and worth a try as Ted discusses.
As I do have the complete fork set from the parts bike just sitting there I will try the extractor hammered on lightly maybe with the rattle gun set on low to start. If no luck then I do the swap and report here with a pic or two.  I did not think those extractor sockets came in a large enough size so thanks claytonsdad for the harbor freight link. I will take my parts bike end cap in with me to check the fit. Home in the next few days and ready to get in the garage and get this old girl back on the road for a ride or two more this fall.
btw, if you look at the pic above that MOB reposted you can see the marks where I got a drift in there and tried to hammer the cap to start it turning, it dug into the aluminum pretty good but I didn't want to booger things up so much that other methods could not be tried.
 
I'm with Ted.  It's not hard to pull the fork tubes and use the one from the parts bike.  The frustration factor would be too much for me.  :mad: :truce: :truce:
 
There sure is a frustration factor.  I got the extractor socket set from harbor freight and used my Harbor freight dremel type tool to shape the hex some and hammered the 17mm socket on and it was on nice and tight.  But lesson learned is that even on tight and using good leverage the aluminum is too soft and the cap is too tight.  I am about to remove the front forks from the donor bike and the good bike and swap them to keep the donor a roller for now.  The donor forks do not seem to be leaking, both the caps came out with ease (the end caps are also called preload adjusters, is that right?) and I will drain and fill with fresh 15wt and go for awhile.  Learning the differences between an 86 and later models in the handlebar area but the forks seem to match. Good rotors and newer, better tire on the 86 front wheel as well so that's going on the 91.  Just need to clean up the fork fluid all over the calipers and clean and lube the speedometer drive. Wheel bearings feel good and so do the head bearings but from what I read I should tighten them so the triple does not bounce off of the stops. 
So I plan to rebuild the 91 forks to reinstall later by drilling out the stuck cap, cleaning and flushing, and doing the spring cut and pvc spacer mod. So far I have 1000 in the low mileage 91, 200 in the parts 86, a hundred bucks or so in misc parts, and hope to get and keep this bike in touring condition on a limited budget. Its running great on the donor bike carbs and petcock for now but the 91 set will go in to Steve some day soon. 

Thanks all
 
Once you get the donor parts on, you can always bench the bad fork tube and basically drill out enough material until it falls apart. Of course, I'd do this with the tube on it's side to keep shavings from falling to the bottom.

4 or 5 3/8" holes drilled into the bad cap should work - would provide some relief for the threads, and you could put a couple large bolts through the holes and twist them with a pry bar (of course, securing the tube without scratching it would be key)

 
You could slide the upper triple clamp down on top of the lower, tighten and clamp them both in a vise the for twice the holding power with scratching the fork.
 
report for all that have watched and discussed:

I have the forks off the 91 and the 86 donor bike; always surprises to be found and solutions determined.  the 86 forks have been off before  and the original air system defeated by welding the tube holes and filling the air line crossover sleeves holes with a machine screw and cutting off the head and preening the remaining portion to lock and seal.  So it appears to be a proper job of defeating the air system.
I appear to have stock progressive style springs and non leaking fork seals.  The fluid that came out is not as bad as expected.
My plan now is to reassemble the 91 with the 86 stock parts, 15w fluid and ride without the air system. Calipers and pads on the 91 are good. Yes, ties holding them up.

Any thoughts on adjustments for the lack of the air system;  fluid level, viscosity, etc?  I plan to ride for a few/ get the feel of it/ rides and maybe put in the other springs after a 4 inch cut off with a pvc spacer. So I have two connies with no front ends and jacks under the engines out in the garages. A regular one man tech gathering but without the beer.  Another discovery is that the parts bike front wheel has good wheel bearings, rotors, and a 2013 Michelin 110/80 tire with very nice tread but only needs a new valve. The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007, but it is holding air and has some tread. This is fun sorting out this bike on a budget using the magic parts bike. Learning much with COG help.
 
Sounds like fun.

The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007
Click to expand...

I would pitch that tire far, far away. No way I trust my life on a nine year old tire.

Keep on keepin on. :beerchug:
 
roadisattva said:
report for all that have watched and discussed:

I have the forks off the 91 and the 86 donor bike; always surprises to be found and solutions determined.  the 86 forks have been off before  and the original air system defeated by welding the tube holes and filling the air line crossover sleeves holes with a machine screw and cutting off the head and preening the remaining portion to lock and seal.  So it appears to be a proper job of defeating the air system.
I appear to have stock progressive style springs and non leaking fork seals.  The fluid that came out is not as bad as expected.
My plan now is to reassemble the 91 with the 86 stock parts, 15w fluid and ride without the air system. Calipers and pads on the 91 are good. Yes, ties holding them up.

Any thoughts on adjustments for the lack of the air system;  fluid level, viscosity, etc?  I plan to ride for a few/ get the feel of it/ rides and maybe put in the other springs after a 4 inch cut off with a pvc spacer. So I have two connies with no front ends and jacks under the engines out in the garages. A regular one man tech gathering but without the beer.  Another discovery is that the parts bike front wheel has good wheel bearings, rotors, and a 2013 Michelin 110/80 tire with very nice tread but only needs a new valve. The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007, but it is holding air and has some tread. This is fun sorting out this bike on a budget using the magic parts bike. Learning much with COG help.
Click to expand...

My advice...
I've seen about every permutation of cutting springs and adding spacers to pre 94 forks, and when going to spring only ( no ait assist) the most reliable, and easiest method truley is the Progressive springs from Murph's.... they are inexpensive, and they work nicely without a bunch of guesswork,
Drop em in, after adding the correct level of oil of your choice...(I've used 10 and 15 wt) and you are done as long as the air crossover holes are plugged.

I've installed them on both my pre 94's, and 3 other owners bikes, and found they were all improved, for very little money.

 
I agree.

Here's a thought.
I have the stock springs out of my 03.
  (They are in the Progressive box that I got my progressives in).
If I recall, the 91 had springs and spacers?
              the 03 had longer springs without spacers?
                The 03 had a better ride than the 91?

If yes, would my 03 springs fit in his 91?
If so I'll give them to you to try until you get some progressives.
You cover shipping and we're even.

Ride safe, Ted



 
Make sure you dont cross thread the cap to the tube
Screwed up fork tubes make good cheater bars
DAMHIK
 
connie_rider said:
I agree.

Here's a thought.
I have the stock springs out of my 03.
  (They are in the Progressive box that I got my progressives in).
If I recall, the 91 had springs and spacers?
              the 03 had longer springs without spacers?
                The 03 had a better ride than the 91?

If yes, would my 03 springs fit in his 91?
If so I'll give them to you to try until you get some progressives.
You cover shipping and we're even.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...


Ted,
You are right the 91 has spacers and kind of limp springs.  It seems I have some progressive springs in the donor forks that are identical in coil count to the ones pictured on Murphs site.  They are about an inch longer than the stockers without the spacer.  I will take a side by side pic tomorrow.  It seems like the magic parts bike makes what MOB recommends appear.  Wow, just wow  I'am running them  These are either the later model springs like yours or progressives.  Thanks again for the offer to help.
 
Cal said:
so why are people closing up the air crossover system?

Cal
Click to expand...

well, you can leave it in place, and if the seals an orings are good, no issue.
just don't add air on top of the Progressive spring kit....
fork seals after removing the need for air, will go forever...

just saying.

mind the correct oil levels tho. for pre 94
 
Cal said:
so why are people closing up the air crossover system?

Cal
Click to expand...

Not ignoring you.
Not sure why their changing, nor the purpose of it.
I suspect it kept the air pressures and fluid levels equal.

One possible reason for changing is air leaks?

Ride safe, Ted
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
roadisattva said:
report for all that have watched and discussed:

I have the forks off the 91 and the 86 donor bike; always surprises to be found and solutions determined.  the 86 forks have been off before  and the original air system defeated by welding the tube holes and filling the air line crossover sleeves holes with a machine screw and cutting off the head and preening the remaining portion to lock and seal.  So it appears to be a proper job of defeating the air system.
I appear to have stock progressive style springs and non leaking fork seals.  The fluid that came out is not as bad as expected.
My plan now is to reassemble the 91 with the 86 stock parts, 15w fluid and ride without the air system. Calipers and pads on the 91 are good. Yes, ties holding them up.

Any thoughts on adjustments for the lack of the air system;  fluid level, viscosity, etc?  I plan to ride for a few/ get the feel of it/ rides and maybe put in the other springs after a 4 inch cut off with a pvc spacer. So I have two connies with no front ends and jacks under the engines out in the garages. A regular one man tech gathering but without the beer.  Another discovery is that the parts bike front wheel has good wheel bearings, rotors, and a 2013 Michelin 110/80 tire with very nice tread but only needs a new valve. The 91 front tire is a duro from 2007, but it is holding air and has some tread. This is fun sorting out this bike on a budget using the magic parts bike. Learning much with COG help.
Click to expand...

My advice...
I've seen about every permutation of cutting springs and adding spacers to pre 94 forks, and when going to spring only ( no ait assist) the most reliable, and easiest method truley is the Progressive springs from Murph's.... they are inexpensive, and they work nicely without a bunch of guesswork,
Drop em in, after adding the correct level of oil of your choice...(I've used 10 and 15 wt) and you are done as long as the air crossover holes are plugged.

I've installed them on both my pre 94's, and 3 other owners bikes, and found they were all improved, for very little money.
Click to expand...

MOB,  I really wanted so badly to buy some springs from Murphs on your recommendation that I looked at the website and recognized the progressives as what I took out of the donor 86,  even the coil count is the same.

Top is what I found in the 86 donor and bottom is the 91 stocker from the fork I could get open.
So I am putting the progressives forks/springs into the 91 starting with atf for fluid and changing with my cool drain plugs when I want to try something heavier. I am having such good luck with this parts bike that I better check the engine for Steves cams and a seventh gear unit,  Wow  So are these progressives from Murphs, is there a way to tell or are these just regular post 94 springs? They sure are a lot stiffer just trying to compress in my hands.  I am looking forward to the ride. It was a front diver but I thought it was because of the leaky fork seal.  Putting it back together today. I will mark and use my wooden dowel hydrolock tester stick for fluid dipstick.  Just under 14 inches from the top with the forks fully extended, pumped slowly a few times before a final measurement;  right?
 
Its going back together.  I got the donor tire wheel valve fixed and rebalanced at Cycle Gear today and the front end is part way together.  Finished tomorrow and a test ride,  maybe a real ride on Monday.  Sunny and 57 in the afternoon. 
 
roadisattva sed; I will mark and use my wooden dowel hydrolock tester stick for fluid dipstick.  Just under 14 inches from the top with the forks fully extended, pumped slowly a few times before a final measurement;  right?

Don't quite follow you there.
That might be the measurements on the stock 86.
Easier way to do it is;
Remove the springs, completely compress the shock, and set the oil level at 6 1/2"..

A sneaky way to set the 6 1/2" is to overfill with fluid, and suck the extra fluid out.
Being  :truce: frugal, I sometimes use a Turkey baster and a rubber hose.
  Attach the hose to the turkey baster. (Precision front suspension setting device)
      Put the hose 6 1/2" into the top of the shock and suck the oil out.
      When you suck air, the oil level is exactly 6 1/2"...

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted,
I used the FSM and MOB method for 86-93 forks filling and all went well.  I filled with atf that I had on hand.  Checked it over and went for a test ride. Viscosity charts seem to say to me that atf is around 10 wt or higher allowing for differences in brands.  This is great to have this project not be just a repair but an upgrade to progressive like springs.  All seems to be well on a 10 mile test ride and I will go for a more extended ride today.  I loosened and retightened everything while learning and understanding the sequence of fork and wheel installation and keeping the bike upright as well. No leaks and an improved ride with an upgrade in tire and springs is a great outcome with COG help.  I will be renewing membership.

Thanks for offers of help.  It was great to be able to do this with what was at hand.  My little hot rod garage suspension mod here was to sandwich the fork bracket from both bikes together on the 91 for additional bracing on the forks. ( the bracket with 4 holes on top of the fender)
I have fiqured out how to get a photobucket pic into my posts but have no luck getting emoticons above this box to come down using drag/drop or cut past,  what is the method?
 
You're overthinkin' the emoticons - just click on the one you want to use, it will insert at the current cursor position!

Initially you may just see the BBCode for it - like I think the big tooth smiley ( :) ) is a colon and close paren: : )

 
roadisattva, if you want, ship me the original fork leg and I think I can open it up.
It's become a challenge now.  Would love to try.. >:D

Couple of thoughts;
Did you install both of the donor forks?
When we started using ATF, I knew the approx. viscosity.
Knew each brand was different.
So, being a tinkerer, I built a simple tester to check the viscosity.

NOTE: I worked for Shell Oil in the Fuels Engineering group.
            Went and talked to the Lubrication Engineers.

Also, you didn't say how the forks felt with the new springs??

Ride safe, Ted
 
Ted,
I changed both forks because the set from the 86 had the air system work a round.  So now I have what looks like progressive springs or at least post 93 springs and they seem to ride nice and firm with the atf and no air system.  So which atf's in your searching have the heavier viscosity? Did you look at the top spring in my pic. It matches the progressive spring pic on Murphs site down to coil count. I feel like I have made a real upgrade that will be on the bike for a long time instead of just a short term fix.  For a while the old forks are making the parts bike a roller. I guess I would only use them to get an air system early bike going.  I rode 80 miles so far and all seem well. I was looking for RR tracks and manholes to go over.  Little to no dive in the front and no leaks so far. Trying 36 psi in the tires for now.  Next is to service the rear shock and suspension and swap the rear wheel/tire to the 91 from the parts bike.
 
Sounds like your getting there.
I did the viscosity tests somewhere between 1985 and 1990.
So, the info wouldn't be any good now.
I (and I think most) use 40 psi in the tires.

The springs in your photo look just like the springs I took out of my 2003.
Been some time since I installed the Progressives, so I don't recall details; but I think they were a constant wind, not the varied grind that you have.

Need someone to clarify that?

Ride safe, Ted
 
If you look at the progressive springs pic and click on it on Murphs site you can clearly see the two different windings and the count of each is the same as my parts bike springs.  I would like to see a pic of post 94 springs that I could count the coils on as well. Either way I am fine with the way it rides and consider the ones I have an upgrade.
 
connie_rider said:
Sounds like your getting there.
I did the viscosity tests somewhere between 1985 and 1990.
So, the info wouldn't be any good now.
I (and I think most) use 40 psi in the tires.

The springs in your photo look just like the springs I took out of my 2003.
Been some time since I installed the Progressives, so I don't recall details; but I think they were a constant wind, not the varied grind that you have.

Need someone to clarify that?

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
t
The springs he installed, the one on top in his piscture, are truley the Progressive product from Murph, so that is a good swap for sure... the bottom one is a stock pre '94 spring.... I have 3 sets of them, as I replaced a lot of them with Progressive...

In reality both springs are a "progressively wound spring", meaning different areas of the spring react to compression differently....  the bottom spring clearly shows larger coil spacing, and its overall length is shorter...  in spring function, this is a ""mushier"" spring... also, the Progressive products coil spacing, wire diameter, and overall inside/outside diameters vary from the OEM ones, and they ware about 20-25% stiffer...less sag, and better reactivity to stutter bumps and compression...

Also note, boths forks are pre 94, so both get fluid levels checked with springs out, and fully extended.... not compressed... :-X

Good job Rodie, you did good. :great: and lucked out on those springs... :great: :beerchug:
 
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