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ABS?? No Rear Brake after Cable switch, new fluid and pads

D

dsamudio

Guest
Guest
We switched out the cables for a full Galpher Cable kit (brakes, ABS, Clutch) as well as regular brake service.

We have good pressure on the Clutch and Front Brake.

The rear brake has NO pressure, No Bubbles, and we're finishing our second bottle of fluid.

Were using a vacuum to bleed the brakes and are using hand vacuum to try and get rear brake pressure.

What we have tried.

moving cables around to get the air out
removed the caliper and bleed with the bleeder valves upright


Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Thanks all,
Dimitrius
 
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Maybe a reverse brake bleed kit?
I haven't ever had to do this, but some swear by it.
Did a quick search and saw this one.

www.ebay.com

Reverse Brake Bleeder Kit for Harley Davidson Bleed One Person Solo | eBay

(Includes instructions and adapters to fit 99.9% of brake bleeder screws: 1/8", 1/4", 5/16", and even 3/8". ;) Syringe holds an enormous 60 ml, which is about 2 fluid ounces--more than enough for most any brake system.
www.ebay.com

Also saw this. Bleed hose with a check valve in it.
www.ebay.com

Motorcycle Car Brake Bleeder Clutch Bleed Bleeding Tool One Way Valve &Tube Kit | eBay

1 Brake Bleeder Tool Kit. Internal valve prevents air being drawn into the system. Aluminum body for resisting corrosion from brake fluid. Note: The real color of the item may be slightly different from the pictures shown on website caused by many factors such as brightness of your monitor...
www.ebay.com

Also found this; https://www.ebay.com/itm/1219765562...e%2FFtAAo2h1P5IMs%3D|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675
 
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Haven't listed the year or mileage so anything that comes from me is speculation!

If your getting a steady stream with no bubbles there is a good possibility the Master cylinder Cup flipped ( Inside Piston some call it ) you will pull fluid all day long , but not build pressure
 
Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
Haven't listed the year or mileage so anything that comes from me is speculation!

If your getting a steady stream with no bubbles there is a good possibility the Master cylinder Cup flipped ( Inside Piston some call it ) you will pull fluid all day long , but not build pressure
Click to expand...
Sorry about that.

Year: 2010 ABS
Mileage: 15K

Having service and upgrades done.

15k-maintenance-and-upgrades-suggestions-welcome

Thanks,
Dimitrius
 
connie_rider said:
Maybe a reverse brake bleed kit?
I haven't ever had to do this, but some swear by it.
Did a quick search and saw this one.

www.ebay.com

Reverse Brake Bleeder Kit for Harley Davidson Bleed One Person Solo | eBay

(Includes instructions and adapters to fit 99.9% of brake bleeder screws: 1/8", 1/4", 5/16", and even 3/8". ;) Syringe holds an enormous 60 ml, which is about 2 fluid ounces--more than enough for most any brake system.
www.ebay.com

Also saw this. Bleed hose with a check valve in it.
Click to expand...
Thanks

The shop has had two guys work on it when needed and has\is using a hand pump vacuum and a numatic vacuum (to get the air out of the lines).

I do like the one way valve and I will be getting one for my own use.

Thanks again,
Dimitrius
 
Assuming there are no issues and ABS worked in the past and not that it matters cause the accumulator could fail and your main system will still function!

Despite the Internet forums turning misunderstood things into Voodoo, ABS systems have no effect on brake bleeding unless you replaced the accumulator then there is a procedure just for that!


Whenever you are bleeding on an ABS-equipped bike you can do so exactly as you would any bike, car, or truck - stroke the pedal to pressurize the system, open a bleeder, close the same bleeder and keep repeating until you get a steady stream with no bubbles. the procedure does not change whether you are pressure-bleeding, vacuum-bleeding, or manual bleeding.

Reverse bleeding works really well on front brakes cause the master cylinder is higher than your point of exit, and the laws of physics ( Air rises in Fluid) having air trapped up high can be almost impossible to extract. So pushing fluid out of the MC pushes the air out with it.


Sure that you stroked the pedal many times? in the hope to build pressure and if you haven't there is a good chance while the vacuum bleeding you flipped the piston in the bore or something is lodged in the MC
 
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Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
Assuming there are no issues and ABS worked in the past and not that it matters cause the accumulator could fail and your main system will still function!

Despite the Internet forums turning misunderstood things into Voodoo, ABS systems have no effect on brake bleeding unless you replaced the accumulator then there is a procedure just for that!


Whenever you are bleeding on an ABS-equipped bike you can do so exactly as you would any bike, car, or truck - stroke the pedal to pressurize the system, open a bleeder, close the same bleeder and keep repeating until you get a steady stream with no bubbles. the procedure does not change whether you are pressure-bleeding, vacuum-bleeding, or manual bleeding.

Reverse bleeding works really well on front brakes cause the master cylinder is higher than your point of exit, and the laws of physics ( Air rises in Fluid) having air trapped up high can be almost impossible to extract. So pushing fluid out of the MC pushes the air out with it.


Sure that you stroked the pedal many times? in the hope to build pressure and if you haven't there is a good chance while the vacuum bleeding you flipped the piston in the bore or something is lodged in the MC
Click to expand...
Thank you for the info.

I think they have been pumping on the brake, but I will verify they have been.

I did see a post reporting that once the air was in the lines, the process is very time consuming....hours.

Dimitrius
 
Sure just wanted to throw that ABS info out there since it goes hand and hand with resetting your TPS by key on and twisting the throttle four times while spinning your body 360 degrees around and singing praises to your god! and then key off :)

Seriously though what caught me was you wrote they used a pneumatic-powered bleeder, we have those too and you use shop air from your compressor almost all shop compressors run 120PSI or like ours 300PSI. Usually, it overcomes the rubber piston that is the size of your index fingernail.

Just my two cents but I regulate the air to no more than 80PSI to pull the Vacuum.

Imagined your guys after installing that long rear line backfilled it with fluid so that there is less air to push around?

Connie Rider suggests the reverse bleeder you can give it a try at this point if you have one.
 
I think the real problem are the curved cables.

Anyone else have issues when installing the Galfer kit?

The Galfer kit is 11 cables total.
They look great, but so many bends.

IMG_1055.JPG
 
Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
Sure just wanted to throw that ABS info out there since it goes hand and hand with resetting your TPS by key on and twisting the throttle four times while spinning your body 360 degrees around and singing praises to your god! and then key off :)

Seriously though what caught me was you wrote they used a pneumatic-powered bleeder, we have those too and you use shop air from your compressor almost all shop compressors run 120PSI or like ours 300PSI. Usually, it overcomes the rubber piston that is the size of your index fingernail.

Just my two cents but I regulate the air to no more than 80PSI to pull the Vacuum.

Imagined your guys after installing that long rear line backfilled it with fluid so that there is less air to push around?

Connie Rider suggests the reverse bleeder you can give it a try at this point if you have one.
Click to expand...
Thats great info on the pressure. Will turn mine down next time. No issues this far but I barely crack the bleeder.
 
Are you sure Galfer sold you the flexible ABS accumulator jumper lines cause it's not something they make, look at the three top ones and the center one has the OEM part sticker still attached. The Jumpers connecting to the steel hard line are always braided in an ABS system.
 
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Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
Are you sure Galfer sold you the flexible ABS accumulator jumper lines cause it's not something they make, look at the three top ones and the center one has the OEM part sticker still attached the Jumpers connecting to steel line are always braided in an ABS system?

Sounds like a post coming off the rails :0
Here is a song for your listing pleasure
Click to expand...
The part is hard to find, but it's there.

Galfer C14 11 cable kit

I called and verifid it would work. The do not have them in stock, but build as needed and to the color scheme requested.

The one with the sticker we did not change; only the shiny black and chrome ones.

DS
 
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Alright, Sorry for doubting you, You have a special order Kit that is not in their catalog, I have their Service rep on the phone and he is trying to get me the information cause of the parts list that comes with your kit.
I attached and it's the same instructions under the 11-line kit that is posted on their website and it's not correct
and it threw me off.

So hate to tell you this but your guys are going to have to manually bleed the ABS if you do not have access to Kawasaki KDS software or Bosch to run the pump to help move the fluid in both directions.
Even though there are some manual bleeding procedures that may be used without a scan tool it's very difficult, you really need the KDS or a Direct Bosch abs tool to make sure all of the ABS solenoids have been activated will allow the brake fluid to flow through the entire system and ensure all the air is out of the system.
You are in a little deep Sorry if you want PM me and I will try to explain how to manual bleed the pump
 

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I think I'm begining to understand your thinking.

This may be a problem becaues we change the cables on the
Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
Alright, Sorry for doubting you, You have a special order Kit that is not in their catalog, I have their Service rep on the phone and he is trying to get me the information cause of the parts list that comes with your kit.
I attached and it's the same instructions under the 11-line kit that is posted on their website and it's not correct
and it threw me off.

So hate to tell you this but your guys are going to have to manually bleed the ABS if you do not have access to Kawasaki KDS software or Bosch to run the pump to help move the fluid in both directions.
Even though there are some manual bleeding procedures that may be used without a scan tool it's very difficult, you really need the KDS or a Direct Bosch abs tool to make sure all of the ABS solenoids have been activated will allow the brake fluid to flow through the entire system and ensure all the air is out of the system.
You are in a little deep Sorry if you want PM me and I will try to explain how to manual bleed the pump
Click to expand...
I think I'm begining to understand.

There is a problem because we change the cables going to the ABS hydrolic unit?

Please PM me with any info or the "how to" manually bleed the pump.

Thanks for double checking with Galfer.
Dimitrius
 
I found an artical in Concourier Vol 33 pg 23, (you'll need to download it) where

Ben Getz (ZXtasy)
COG #12569, Washington

changed out his cables using the same kit as I have, but no issues.

Just a bit more info to muddy the waters.

Dimitrius
 
That article mentions no bleeding or if he ran into an issue. Sent you a message with instructions that you can try first. Think you might have two problems but what i wrote will tell us
 
Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
That article mentions no bleeding or if he ran into an issue. Sent you a message with instructions that you can try first. Think you might have two problems but what i wrote will tell us
Click to expand...
Yea, I noticed that. All you get at the end is that he bleeds the brakes.

Thanks for the instructions.

We'll give it a try.
 
I installed the Murphs speed bleeder kits at the same time. I also bled the rear brake first and it was fast and straight forward, no issues. The hardest was the clutch, had to bleed both directions and took a third hand from my nephew. I think others may be closing in on the master cylinder. Might be worth pulling it and checking assembly.
 
Today, we held the caliper above the master and no pressure on the rear brake.

Reverse plead and no pressure on the brake.

Front brake has full pressure.

ABS lines were changes one at a time, so they are in the correct places.

No leeks from the lines

The only resistance we get is from the spring for the rear brake

About the shop

This is a two-man shop that has been in business for 17 yrs.

They are the Goto for Sports bikes and have done lots of track bikes and anything else that walks in the door.

lots of ABS bypass for track bikes as wells cables changes and cables changes on bikes with ABS

Next steps

bypass the ABS to rule out the master cylinder and calipers

getting the back wheel in the air, turning on the engine, putting it in gear and bleeding the brakes


Suggestions welcome,

Dimitrius
 
And the verdict is in.....

The Master cylinder.

C&D called it.

I've ordered the rebuild parts and they will be in early next week.

We isolated from the rear master cylinder and caliper from the ABS. The calipers moved when air was applied, but when the isolated system was bled and the master cylinder engaged, no pressure.

Thanks for the suggestions, all.

I'll update after the master cylinder rebuild (with genuine Kawa parts).

Dimitrius
 
Rebuilt the master cylinder and it was corraded on the inside and frozen stiff. We were not able to get it clean enough to re-use any of the parts (not that we would have).

After the rebuild the brakes bleed in 2 minutes.

It looks like we have new know issues.

I'm the third guy report this.

Here is the thread started last week:

Sudden Rear Brake Failure

DS
 
It's caused solely by inadequate maintenance of the braking system and while new to you, not so to all.
 
Thanks Freddy,

From sever things we have found, I don't think much regular maintenance was done
by the previous owner.
 
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