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Anybody else doing Roll-On (modification) comparisons?

Ride report; {Reposted from another discussion (getting your torque back) as it applies to the Roll-on Comparisons}.

Me and texas.devops went to Mexico yesterday and did some Roll-on Test's.
After Steve came up with the idea for a restrictor in a Delk or Black Widow system, I decided to do this on a dual muffler system to see if the reducer idea would do anything. I wasn't sure, and Steve wondered too.
(Quick answer. It does, and can be used to tune your torque curve). See below.

,,With no restrictor's, the bikes were basically even with neither pulling away at low/mid rpm's. (bike seemed a little abrupt at lower throttle openings)
,,With 2 restrictor's, his bike pulled away slightly at low/mid rpm's. (bike seemed to hesitate at lower throttle openings)
,,With 1 restrictor, my bike now pull's away slightly at low/mid rpm's. (bike feels really smooth at lower throttle openings)

NOTE: Texas and I have 2 bikes that are very close to one another in performance. At high RPM's their even.
ie; (The restrictors changed high RPM power very little. (If at all)
Because of the Roll on comparison, and because we have such closely matched bikes, we are able to "see" what is happening.
If you don't have another (closely powered) bike to compare with, it all comes down to your Butt Dyno and Butt Dyno's lie!


That said: A Butt Dyno does tell you differences.....
When I installed 2 restrictors, I could feel that something wasn't right. Removing 1 of the restrictor's, the feel was noticeably better.
NOTE: I'm NOT talking about WOT. I'm talking about partial throttle/low RPM torque.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Ride report; {Reposted from another discussion (getting your torque back) as it applies to the Roll-on Comparisons}.

Me and texas.devops went to Mexico yesterday and did some Roll-on Test's.
After Steve came up with the idea for a restrictor in a Delk or Black Widow system, I decided to do this on a dual muffler system to see if the reducer idea would do anything. I wasn't sure, and Steve wondered too.
(Quick answer. It does, and can be used to tune your torque curve). See below.

,,With no restrictor's, the bikes were basically even with neither pulling away at low/mid rpm's. (bike seemed a little abrupt at lower throttle openings)
,,With 2 restrictor's, his bike pulled away slightly at low/mid rpm's. (bike seemed to hesitate at lower throttle openings)
,,With 1 restrictor, my bike now pull's away slightly at low/mid rpm's. (bike feels really smooth at lower throttle openings)

NOTE: Texas and I have 2 bikes that are very close to one another in performance. At high RPM's their even.
ie; (The restrictors changed high RPM power very little. (If at all)
Because of the Roll on comparison, and because we have such closely matched bikes, we are able to "see" what is happening.
If you don't have another (closely powered) bike to compare with, it all comes down to your Butt Dyno and Butt Dyno's lie!


That said: A Butt Dyno does tell you differences.....
When I installed 2 restrictors, I could feel that something wasn't right. Removing 1 of the restrictor's, the feel was noticeably better.
NOTE: I'm NOT talking about WOT. I'm talking about partial throttle/low RPM torque.

Ride safe, Ted
I'm getting ready for the National and removed the restrictor that I still had in the bike.
Reason; I hope to do a repeat roll-on with a friend while at the National, so I put the bike back to how it was when he and I first compared.
ie; It had 0 restrictors in the pipes at that time and the bike is set up the same now.

NOTE: Steve suggested that people with Delk. or BW headers install Restrictors to improve the low end torque.
I opted to give the idea a try, but have a 2 muffler system with ZX-14 headers.
The Torque Effects (after adding the restrictors on my 2 muffler/ZX-14 header system) was questionable as a 2 muffler system could respond differently than a 1 muffler system.

I've done comparison roll-on's with 0, 2, and 1 restrictor's.
ie; After each restrictor change a roll-on was done with the same bike/texas.devops to look for change.
The restrictors "definitely" made a difference and I think the 1 restrictor set up is best in my muffler system.
ie; I really liked the way the bike delivered power at the Tennessee event, and I may go back to that (1 restrictor) set up after the National.
But, I want to repeat (0 restrictor) Roll-on's to be sure.. <evil grin>

Ride safe, Ted
 
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To anyone that is just getting into this discussion;
I want to clear something up about the Roll-on (modification) Comparison, by putting it into a simple statement.
** The purpose of the Roll-on Comparison is "not" to see whose bike is the fastest.
The purpose of a Roll-on Comparison is to see if a Modification works.

ie; ** Compare your bike with other bikes. {not just "try" to prove your bike is faster than RED}
(Then,,,, report modifications/results to this discussion).

Roll-on procedure;
Our test consists of getting the bikes rolling, put them in 3rd gear, let them stabilize at about 2000 RPM's, count to 3, and whack the throttles open.
{ I prefer 2000 to show low end torque, but other starting RPM's can be used}
We generally knew the result "way "before 10,000 RPM, but is sometimes fun to go there.

NOTE: A roll-on "removes" differences in clutch work, how a person shifts, etc from the comparison...

Ok, I admit that it's not very scientific, but it is a good GREAT way to compare mods... (Sort of a poor mans Dyno)

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Arrived home for the National yesterday. (We made a side trip to Branson for some shows before heading home).
Wow, did we have a great time!!!

Ride report;
While at the National, I was able to do only one roll on test with Laker. (4 pulls)
The other folks that planned to meet/compare modifications didn't show up. (??)
NOTE: The main purpose of this test was to see why his bike hasn't pulled away from Red as it has a Full Area P System.
(See previous reports [66, 67, 74])

New Mods;
Since our last meet, RED was unchanged.

His bike had been gone thru with valve adjust/plugs/fuel pump.
Additionally, he installed a Yoshimura exhaust, (pulled his flies??), and built his own Flash.
We both thought his bike would pull away at higher RPM's (and maybe also at low/mid RPM's because of the Yoshimura exhaust)

Results of the test; There was only a slight change from previous tests.
At low RPM's (2000 to 2500 RPM / 3 runs) RED would jump ahead a length or so, and then the bikes stayed at that spacing until we shut it down. (approx. 7,000 RPM)
The only exception was when we did a higher RPM start. (perhaps 5000 RPM)
On that run, his bike pulled RED slightly and then the bikes stayed at that spacing until we shut it down. (approx. 10,000 RPM)

We were both puzzled by the results. His bike should be beating mine.... (???)
After discussing things, "he" feels that there was some improvement, and further refinement of his Flash will be the solution.

NOTE: I'm not posting this as a brag.
(We're trying to find a solution to the Delima and I think that eventually he'll find it).
But (being me) "I" told him that painting his bike RED is the refinement that needs to be done. <evil grin>

As both of us didn't see the runs the same, I'm hoping that he'll read this report and clarify things that I reported incorrectly in my report.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I agree with Ted's account. I felt like mine was slightly better than in the past and I think Ted's report supports that. I was disappointed but after thinking about it for a minute, I was actually pleased that I didn't go backwards. Building a flash from scratch could have made it worse. Small changes make quite a difference as do ambient Temps. When I got home Friday night it had cooled off considerably, and the bike was back to where I'm sure it would have pulled away at higher rpm. But then again maybe his would have been better too. When not doing roll ons with Ted I'm very pleased. It pulls hard starting about 4-5k and was much fun on Push mtn road.
 
I agree with Ted's account. I felt like mine was slightly better than in the past and I think Ted's report supports that. I was disappointed but after thinking about it for a minute, I was actually pleased that I didn't go backwards. Building a flash from scratch could have made it worse. Small changes make quite a difference as do ambient Temps. When I got home Friday night it had cooled off considerably, and the bike was back to where I'm sure it would have pulled away at higher rpm. But then again maybe his would have been better too. When not doing roll ons with Ted I'm very pleased. It pulls hard starting about 4-5k and was much fun on Push mtn road.
The ECU uses 2 pressure sensors to compare ambient changes, so whatever changes it adjusted to in the cooler weather Both bikes would benefit from.

Steve
 
The ECU uses 2 pressure sensors to compare ambient changes, so whatever changes it adjusted to in the cooler weather Both bikes would benefit from.
Yes. but I haven't tried to address this situation yet. It's a big difference like an off and on switch. I've got some ideas, but it will be a lot of trial and error. And of course, the weather doesn't always cooperate.

But I doubt that I ever match Ted at 2500rpm. He seems to have the right combo for that.

Roll ons are the only way to figure this kind of thing out. Meeting up with Ted twice a year is slow but fun. I'm gonna bring a 40-pound bag of salt and strap to his bike!
 
But I doubt that I ever match Ted at 2500rpm. He seems to have the right combo for that.
I've done multiple Roll-on's with Texas Devops.
(After he added a BW Muffler, and MRP Flash) his bike is extremely close to my bike in the Roll-on's.
NOTE: He has a stock Header, and I've found that the stocker "may" be better at low RPM's than my set up.
Read thru the Roll-on tests discussion to learn more..

I'm gonna bring a 40-pound bag of salt and strap to his bike!
We could trade bikes and see what happens??
Texas and I did that. The results were the same.
NOTE: I was the heavier rider in our tests.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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While I was away has "anyone" done more Roll-on test's or testing of Reducers?
The idea is to compare Modifications that people have done to their bikes and report. (so we can see trends)

I keep trying to get folks to do Roll-on Test's and report.
* I even tried to get the UCC folks to join in.
(Unfortunately, they couldn't understand the concept, resorted to name calling, and kicked me out). 😵

To anyone that is just getting into this discussion;
I want to clear something up about the Roll-on (modification) Comparison, by putting it into a simple statement.
** The purpose of the Roll-on Comparison is "not" to see whose bike is the fastest.
The purpose of a Roll-on Comparison is to see if a Modification works.
It should be done in multiple tests, between multiple bikes so we can see trends.

ie; ** Compare your bike with "other" bikes. {not just "try" to prove your bike is faster than RED}

Roll-on procedure;
Our test consists of warming up the bikes, then with the bikes rolling, coast down and put them in 3rd gear, let them stabilize at about 2000 RPM's, count to 3, and whack the throttles open. (So simple, even a child can do it)
NOTE: I prefer 2000 to show low end torque, but other starting RPM's can be used.
We generally knew the result "way "before 10,000 RPM, but is sometimes fun to go there.

After the test; (Both Riders) should report the results to this discussion. (include modifications, and variances)
** Ideally, the report should break the Roll-on into different RPM segments. (ie; report at what RPM Range one of the bikes pulled the other).

NOTE: A roll-on "removes" differences in clutch work, how a person shifts, etc from the comparison...

Ok, I admit that it's not very scientific, but it is a good GREAT way to compare mods... (Sort of a poor mans Dyno)

Ride safe, Ted
 
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To anyone that is just getting into this discussion;
I want to clear something up about the Roll-on (modification) Comparison, by putting it into a simple statement.
** The purpose of the Roll-on Comparison is "not" to see whose bike is the fastest.
The purpose of a Roll-on Comparison is to see if a Modification works.

ie; ** Compare your bike with other bikes. {not just "try" to prove your bike is faster than RED}

Ok, I admit that it's not very scientific, but it is a good GREAT way to compare mods... (Sort of a poor mans Dyno)

-——————————————
I concur, this is a shakedown of newly installed upgrades rather than a competitive scenario. Can’t stress that difference enough. It’s a SWAG experiment, not a sausage measuring scenario.

:^ ) AB
 
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Haven't posted on this discussion in a while. In South Houston it's been to ^$% hot to go riding.

Has anyone else been doing Roll On tests?
If so, post your report here.
As always, we welcome the reports from both bikes.

Ride safe, Ted (SRCA Founder/President)
 
I hate to admit that Texas/Devops done good, but I like his explanation of Roll-on testing.

ie; This is a shakedown of newly installed upgrades rather than a competitive scenario.
Can’t stress that difference enough.
It’s a SWAG experiment, not a sausage measuring scenario.

Ride safe, Ted (SRCA Founder/President)
 
Right on Ted, important to highlight this. If and when Smokey pulls a pair over, stressing the INTENT is testing rather than racing may make a difference in how things shape up with that particular LEO at that particular moment.

Of course the recommendation is NOT to be doing roll-ons down Main St or on the freeway during rush-hour traffic near interchanges. LEOs may frown on anything exciting under those traffic conditions, no matter the intent. LOL
 
I haven't done a Roll on report in a long time.
I just returned from the Horseshoe Mountain Rally, where we did some roll-on testing.
Here's the report.

{Note: Pay attention 2andblue}
Robert showed up with a beautiful Dark Blue Connie (2010 I think).
It had Muzzy headers/dual Muzzy mufflers and mid pipes and had less miles on it than mine.
The bike also had a brand new Ivan Flash installed.
(The Flash was done with knowledge of what headers were on the bike, so I'll assume the Flash was correct for a bike with the Muzzy's)
Watching Robert ride it, it looked really fast!
The bike would lift the front end with a solid twist of the throttle.
It handled great in the twisties and Robert is very satisfied with how it works.
Seeing his bike I figured his would pull away from mine.
Yes,,,, It is that impressive.

After a day of FUN {{riding the twists and turns in Arkansas}} we finally found a straight and did 1 roll on comparison.
NOTE: All seemed fine with the test so I think it good test. (ie; We had an even start/same approx weight/same gas/etc) Only difference from my previous reports was we "may have" started it with the engines slightly below 2000 RPM.

When we opened the throttles, His bike initially pulled mine a bit (1 wheel length) and I thought "here he goes".
But it didn't happen. :oops:
At approx. 2500-3000 RPM mine began to pull away and kept doing it. :sneaky:
Seeing this, I thought his Muzzy system would do better than mine and he would catch / pass me as the RPM's came up. {so we went all the way to 10k}
Suprisingly, his never caught/passed mine.
NOTE: I think mine continued to pull away all the way to 10k, but his may have stopped my pull and been even at some point. {At 10k he was about 3-4 lengths behind me}

Bottom line is, my set up of ZX-14 headers/dual Area P mufflers and mid pipes/MRP Flash still seem the better set up for this type of comparison.

IMPORTANT:
Most of this report is not intended as braggadocios. (See Supercharged in my next post {#222} for a little BD) <GRIN>
(Even though it's RED) I don't think I have the fastest Connie out there nor am I posting this as a race challenge.

It's intended as a test report that can be used to evaluate possibilities when you mod your bike.
I continue to ask for others to do the same tests and reports.

Err; If you choose to do modifications to your bike, I do have one suggestion for a modification that I know will help.
I highly suggest RED paint!! 🫣

Ride safe, Ted
 
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@connie_rider nice job sticking with it. What gear was this last roll-on in?

Would be cool to map all different gears and starting RPM’s the see where each setup exceeds or loses. Then check the variables and make changes to close the gap.

Wayne, Carol & Blue (Unafraid of Red)
 
I get a little jealous of those connies that lift the wheel on throttle. Mine only does if I am crossing another road with a slight rise in it.

I recommend tightening the rear suspension to 18 clicks in (from fully soft) at a minimum so that the rear doesn't sag when you twist hard. I did this last summer and bingo the nose went UP almost as fast as it went forward. Oh, and turn off your traction control if you don't want Mama Kawa's "rider aide" (aka "Babysitter") to spoil the fun.

Just make sure your right foot is squarely planted over the rear brake so that if your right hand forgets to roll out of the wheelie your right foot will be able to keep you from scraping the paint off your license plate.

And make sure you're wearing all your gear! Ask me how I know. :^ \
 
I recommend tightening the rear suspension to 18 clicks in (from fully soft) at a minimum so that the rear doesn't sag when you twist hard. I did this last summer and bingo the nose went UP almost as fast as it went forward. Oh, and turn off your traction control if you don't want Mama Kawa's "rider aide" (aka "Babysitter") to spoil the fun.

Just make sure your right foot is squarely planted over the rear brake so that if your right hand forgets to roll out of the wheelie your right foot will be able to keep you from scraping the paint off your license plate.

And make sure you're wearing all your gear! Ask me how I know. :^ \
Maybe I will just leave it be 😀
 
LOL, can't quite wrap my head around the differential particle equation that leads to one light photon of a certain pigment reducing the friction of a motorized monster moving faster than the same monster with a slightly altered color code... but ok. LOLOLOLOL

One other thought I had about the 3rd gear roll-ons, in addition to the exhaust mods and flashes, is the airbox filter. I haven't swapped mine out yet, but given the upgrades some are making I think it only makes sense to swap this small item for a better breathing dust catcher.

Has anyone got a bead on an aftermarket that's less expensive than this one?
View attachment 29222
Try a K/N....
 
And now; The rest of the story..
On the last day; Robert parked his Connie and rode his brand new "Super Charged" H2 SX Kawasaki.
I assume he planned ""Pay Back"".
I simply planned another Roll-on Test.... <unknowing grin>

Here is the report of our attempt.
I'll start with (UNfortunately) things didn't work out as we hoped, and we were not able to do a full test.
ie; (As I waved us off for the pull, He opened the throttle too soon, then rolled off, and hit it again).
In that short time (throttle on/off/on) mine was already pulling away and he shut it down thinking no sense in doing the test. I suspect his would have blown past mine..
Unfortunately he didn't stay on the throttle, and we got past the straight section of road..
"And sooo'', we'll have to wait until another day. 👀

Yes,,, I KNOW what would have happened if he had stayed on the throttle,,,,
(As in;
Holly Cruise Missile "Batman")!! :eek:

But he didn't, so my (carefully worded) report "is",,,
"My
RED Connie ""did"" pull away from his Super Charged Kawasaki ".. 😝

Ride safe, Ted
 
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@connie_rider nice job sticking with it. What gear was this last roll-on in?

Would be cool to map all different gears and starting RPM’s the see where each setup exceeds or loses. Then check the variables and make changes to close the gap.

Wayne, Carol & Blue (Unafraid of Red)
Let me start with; a Roll-on test is a poor-man's dyno test.
This is NOT a drag race. It's a test.
Just like a Dyno tes
t you need to start at a low RPM so that you can see how the bike performs in all RPM ranges.
Starting at a higher RPM {to allow a bike to do better} covers up the torque/power you may be losing at lower RPM's, ""and"" the test is being done to see the effects of modifications.

If you want to; (map the runs) You would use a dyno.
map all different gears and starting RPM’s the see where each setup exceeds or loses. Then check the variables and make changes to close the gap.
The problem with using a dyno (to MAP) the runs is;
You have to;
,,, pay for multiple dyno runs (each test costs money)
,,, determine the differences in the different dyno's (as EVERY dyno is different),
,,, determine the differences in the dyno plot parameters (the parameters of dyno plots are different).
,,, You also have to allow for the differences in the conditions on the days that the tests were done (as differences in conditions effect the plots).
All of this takes time, money, and you need to very completely understand what the plot is telling you before you can make changes to close the gap.

Or; (to see and know the effects of the changes you made to your bike) Do a Roll-on test with your buddy, make changes, and then do another roll-on test with the same Buddy.

,,,,,,, A roll-on with the same Buddy/bike takes away the variables that occur on dyno tests.
You will immediately KNOW if your modifications made any difference and in what RPM range the change occurred.
After that,,, more Changes can be made and the Roll-on Test repeated to see the effects again.

Ride safe, Ted (err 2andblue old Buddy; Be afraid. Be VERY afraid)

PS: The 18 clicks that Texas-Devops mentioned in his post are the setting's I used when I set the sag on my bike.
We used my setting to get his sag close to correct.
EVERY bike SHOULD have the sag set on both ends.

NOTE:
Stiffening/preloading the rear suspension does NOT make wheelies easier to do.
Stiffening/preloading the rear suspension helps to prevent wheelies as the rear does not drop as much during an accell.
ie; (less weight is transferred to the rear).
 
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Let me start with; a Roll-on test is a poor-man's dyno test.
This is NOT a drag race. It's a test.
Just like a Dyno tes
t you need to start at a low RPM so that you can see how the bike performs in all RPM ranges.
Starting at a higher RPM {to allow a bike to do better} covers up the torque/power you may be losing at lower RPM's, ""and"" the test is being done to see the effects of modifications.

If you want to; (map the runs) You would use a dyno.

The problem with using a dyno (to MAP) the runs is;
You have to;
,,, pay for multiple dyno runs (each test costs money)
,,, determine the differences in the different dyno's (as EVERY dyno is different),
,,, determine the differences in the dyno plot parameters (the parameters of dyno plots are different).
,,, You also have to allow for the differences in the conditions on the days that the tests were done (as differences in conditions effect the plots).
All of this takes time, money, and you need to very completely understand what the plot is telling you before you can make changes to close the gap.

Or; (to see and know the effects of the changes you made to your bike) Do a Roll-on test with your buddy, make changes, and then do another roll-on test with the same Buddy.

,,,,,,, A roll-on with the same Buddy/bike takes away the variables that occur on dyno tests.
You will immediately KNOW if your modifications made any difference and in what RPM range the change occurred.
After that,,, more Changes can be made and the Roll-on Test repeated to see the effects again.

Ride safe, Ted (err 2andblue old Buddy; Be afraid. Be VERY afraid)

PS: The 18 clicks that Texas-Devops mentioned in his post are the setting's I used when I set the sag on my bike.
We used my setting to get his sag close to correct.
EVERY bike SHOULD have the sag set on both ends.

NOTE:
Stiffening/preloading the rear suspension does NOT make wheelies easier to do.
Stiffening/preloading the rear suspension helps to prevent wheelies as the rear does not drop as much during an accell.
ie; (less weight is transferred to the rear).
I would just like to add that roll on's can be great tests for making changes, but ONLY ONE BIKE CAN BE ALTERED or the whole test goes out the window. One bike is the "constant" and cannot be altered in any meaningful way while testing is underway, otherwise you'll never know what worked and what didn't. I was fortunate back in 2015 when making my first flashes to have several COG friends willing to be test partners. We developed the baseline, and then I made changes to my bike from there. You really can see changes in the real world that don't show up on a dyno, like the effect of sharp initial throttle response.

Steve
 
Ted, it looks like you are having a real ball with the "roll-on" tests. This is your niche I see. If you are ever in South Florida neck of the woods, would love to meet with you and do some of your roll-ons. I will tell you, my "ol" girl pulls hard...Sean
 
ONLY ONE BIKE CAN BE ALTERED


Be interesting to compare four stock bikes against each with all four riders getting to pilot each bike.. Playing with 600 Hondas many years ago there was always one bike just a little better han the rest.....be fun to do it again...Im about 80 pounds heaver..thats what ..12 HP worth? 🐱🐉
 
Yes, that would be very interesting Murph. I will be doing a baseline dyno pull on my 09 and then installing Steves reducer and doing a post dyno in the near future. I believe the reducer will give me some of my low end TQ back. I run an Area-P full system...Sean
 
Yes, that would be very interesting Murph. I will be doing a baseline dyno pull on my 09 and then installing Steves reducer and doing a post dyno in the near future. I believe the reducer will give me some of my low end TQ back. I run an Area-P full system...Sean
As I told you, you may not see any difference WOT on the dyno. Go ride the bike with it out, then in... bet you'll feel a difference. Dyno's won't always pick up on the subtleties. I saw no difference with the reducer on the dyno with my versys 1000, but you can absolutely feel it when riding. It brought all the low end sharpness back the larger tube headers has killed.
Steve
 
Yes Sir. This is what I'm looking for. Not interested in pulling the most horsepower, I have other bikes for that. This is the beauty of the VVT Connie. It has all sorts of engineering to make a 700-pound motorcycle very capable. I'm always in the learning curve...Sean
 
I talk a lot about Roll-on Tests being a way to compare modifications between 2 bikes, "because it is".
But a Roll-on or a Dyno Test do not give you all the information you need.

The only way to tell if a modification works for you "is to ride the bike" and see if the modification "is doing what you want" it to do.

In my opinion, any modification for a Connie should also work in the first 1/4 - 1/2 of the throttle rotation and lower RPM's. {BECAUSE this is the part of the Throttle and RPM range that we use the most}.

NOTE: In my last test report I tried to express that Roberts bike is doing exactly what he wants. That bike was very impressive.
Yes, my RED bike pulled his in the test, but how the bike works for him is more important that which bike is the fastest.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Steve made a valid point.
If a modification helps the Connie in the first 1/4 -1/2 of throttle rotation, "that same modification" may {or may not} show up on a Dyno or Roll-on Test. (Because their done at WOT)
 
I have an observation about roll-on testing vs dyno pulls. First I like roll-ons and find them quite helpful. But the argument that they are somehow better than a dyno due to full open throttle on the dyno, doesn't work. Roll-ons are also instant full throttle scenarios. There's no way to do part throttle comparisons other than on a fancy new dyno with the proper options. It's best to get it to throttle to your liking and forget about it. Now where's Ted?, I just made some changes.
 
Hi David. I'm he-eeeere.. 😝

My thought is that a roll-on is better than a dyno because it is an instant comparison.
ie; You can see the difference in 2 bikes immediately.
Additionally, there are far fewer variables, and you don't have to for multiple dyno runs before you can compare numbers.

I admit/agree that a dyno run gives you lots of information.
ie; A dyno test gives you real numbers to look at and compare .
But, a big issue with dyno runs is differing conditions/variables.
Roll-ons take away a lot of those variables.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Partial throttle dyno runs are relatively EZ to do, but takes some prep work.
ie; Add a mechanical stop on your throttle linkage.
 
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If a modification helps the Connie in the first 1/4 -1/2 of throttle rotation, "that same modification" may {or may not} show up on a Dyno or Roll-on Test. (Because their done at WOT)
I read this wrong or didn't absorb it properly. I completely agree and my last post is worthless.
 
The dyno is science, rolls-ons are real world plug & play, that is, if the variables are the same as mentioned in this LONG>>> thread. The dyno is a tool in the tool box of performance tools. When the squeeze is on, MATH wins..JMO.
 
I learned the hard way back in 1979. Everyone from my high school rode HDs, I had one friend with a 900 Kaw and four of us had Yamaha 1100XS bikes. Of course, the jap bikes would outrun any HD in our group, and I was looking for an edge on my fellow 1100's, so I installed Kerker headers, which was a significant mistake. My buds would walk away from me at lower RPMs, and I had a cop chase me home the first night as I rode home at 2 AM, with the night and day difference in noise, I called it advertising (for cops)
So I did the same as Ted got a set of early ZX14 headers with the small tubes remembering that Kerker mistake,
I installed two brothers' mufflers and was ready to sell the combo because it was too loud for me till someone on here suggested installing reducers in the mufflers, I believe Two Brothers make three different sizes, and I ordered the smallest and I have been happy ever since.
I just sent out new aftermarket exhaust for my new 390 KTM to get a ceramic coating to keep heat in and less heat outside, should keep them looking like new also, $100.00, the headers on my C14 are wrapped in heat tape and look nasty because my Jack Russel was trying to get lizards hiding in the motor area:rolleyes:
 
Had the same thing going on with performance cars in high school. Ran a header muffler on an 1968 Olds 442 and it ran slower. Sounded like a garbage truck..! Funny as hell. The glory days for sure Cuda...Sean
 
The dyno is science, rolls-ons are real world plug & play, that is, if the variables are the same as mentioned in this LONG>>> thread. The dyno is a tool in the tool box of performance tools. When the squeeze is on, MATH wins..JMO.
Math is not always the winner. It is an indicator.
I've been trying to explain that dyno numbers vary from Dyno to dyno.
Because the variables are never the same.
So the value of the numbers are not exactly comparable.

ie; On 1 dyno one bike may show it produces 160 HP, and another bike on another dyno may show it produces 155 HP.
But (Using the numbers alone) you can't know one is faster than the other until the bikes are compared.

But, both tests do not tell you what the bikes will do at partial throttle or lower RPMs.
How an engine produces power in the lower ranges is far more important than peak/WOT power.

PS: In the real world, S-K-I-L-L wins.
ie; A person can have all the HP in the world and a better rider will still leave them in the dust.
Particularly a skilled rider on a RED bike. <evil grin>

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Hello Ted. You are 100 % correct. I recently experienced this. It's a dyno I have been using for years. His shop was flooded out a month ago and I feel the Dyno is off. In any event, I am in the process of locating another Dyno I can do a fresh baseline on. The world of performance Ted is a rollercoaster ride. You do A/B/C and you don't get the results you predicted. I will be doing a butt dyno on the exhaust reducer I installed on my Area/P soon. I'll keep you posted...Sean
 
Here is some info that I copied from K&N.
They were showing how they ensure good results by doing their dyno tests on the same vehicle / on the same day.
But their post (also) highlights the same things I've been saying about Dyno Test variables.
ie; Dyno test results have variables in them that effect the numbers.

K&N Tests the Same Vehicle on the Same Day

K&N has noticed that SAE corrected horsepower values can vary from day to day even when testing the same vehicle, due to the manner in which the vehicle's on-board computer adjusts for varying climate conditions. For example, if a vehicle is tested at sea level on a sunny and warm day, the dyno will apply a SAE correction factor to adjust the conditions to a standard temperature and pressure (STP) and the vehicle's on-board computer will also apply a set of operating parameters. If that same vehicle is tested at a high altitude on a rainy and cold day, the dyno will again adjust to standard temperature and pressure, while the vehicle may adjust to a different correction factor than it did on the sea level test. In other words, it is very possible to manipulate the results of a dyno test by testing a vehicle under different temperature and pressure conditions.

Due to the high sensitivity of horsepower testing equipment, changing even one or two factors can dramatically alter the results. For this reason, K&N engineers always test products on the same vehicle on the same day.
In looking at dyno charts for some intake competitors, consumers have noted that the vehicles used before and after testing are frequently different, and that competitor tests are often performed on different days—sometimes even weeks apart.

While the horsepower gains on such charts might look impressive initially, it begs the question as to how accurate those results will be when applied to a real-world application.
 
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I had an opportunity to see the dyno system used by motoGP teams a few years back :oops:. They can literally run a race course on the dyno.
 
Back from the National and have 2 Roll-On's to report.
#1 was a re-run with Jack (who ran off and left me previously / before I had the MRP installed).
His bike; Yoshimira Exhaust and a modified Full Area P Flash.
Mine; Mountain Runner Premium Flash and ZX-14 headers.
Initially mine pulled very slightly. (His wheel wuz at my back wheel)
At high RPM's his gained slightly until bikes were near even. (His wheel wuz at my foot peg)


#2 was a run with Steve M. who I haven't tested with previously.
His bike; Mountain Runner Premium Flash and Two Brother Slip-on.
Mine; Mountain Runner Premium Flash and ZX-14 headers.
Initially mine pulled a bit. (approx. 1 bike length)
Bikes remained in that position thru all RPM's.


In both tests;
,,,, we started above the normal 2000-2500 RPM start. (approx. 3000)
,,, I may have twisted the throttle an "instant" before the other rider.
(that instant may be 1/4 of a second) and may have caused an initial gain)

NOTE:
I do the count/signal to start the tests and (because I do not want an advantage) I always try to wait an instant before twisting the throttle.
In repeat tests, I wait until the other bike gain RPM's to be sure I do not start before them.
In these tests I did the same, but we were unable to do repeat tests.
So; I wanted to post that possibility.

As usual; I ask the other rider's to post their thoughts on the tests.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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