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Cornering Fast

IKnowYouRider

IKnowYouRider

Guest
Guest
Hi All,

Looking for everyones advice on improving speed through turns. I am new to group riding and I am finding myself slower in turns than the group. I have taken advanced MSF courses. I have been street riding for 22 years. I feel super confident at slow speed maneuvering and taking turns at speed limit. But I have a healthy fear going 'too fast' through turns I can't see through. Wanted to hear from this experienced group on their insight on this topic.


Thanks,
Brian
 
Take a track day event, like a Reg Pridemore's CLASS or Yammie Champions School...your confidence and skills will change exponentially the first day! If that is just not possible, read Keith Codes Twist of the wrist or Nick Ienatch's book...apply the skill training exercises. Remember to look where you want to go, keep eyes up and ahead and through the next corner, look lean and believe you can make it.
 
IKnowYouRider said:
I have a healthy fear going 'too fast' through turns I can't see through. Wanted to hear from this experienced group on their insight on this topic.

Thanks,
Brian
Click to expand...
Hello Brian - in addition to already mentioned, more hours in the saddle will gain confidence that you’ll be able to handle whatever may be around that corner.

For technique tips I would offer: Focus on braking and downshifting before the corner, setting up your line for a good outside-inside-outside corner (don’t turn in too early you’ll be chasing the corner the entire turn) and drive through the corner adding extra power only when you see your exit.

Also if you are riding in a group and anybody gives you trouble, you’re in the wrong group. Ride your own ride! Only if you want to go faster should you.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
Also should add, be first on the gas and last on the brakes. But seriously, unless you are going to be a racer, and you just want to improve on your daily ride (the Fat Ninja), smooth and consistent application of your own personal throttle and braking limits, riding within them, will get you to most stops ahead of the pack of pure speed junkies. You will often be behind them but will pass them as they are gassing up or picking up...their bike out of the ditch.
 
IKnowYouRider said:
Hi All,

Looking for everyones advice on improving speed through turns. I am new to group riding and I am finding myself slower in turns than the group. I have taken advanced MSF courses. I have been street riding for 22 years. I feel super confident at slow speed maneuvering and taking turns at speed limit. But I have a healthy fear going 'too fast' through turns I can't see through. Wanted to hear from this experienced group on their insight on this topic.


Thanks,
Brian
Click to expand...
I'll break this down, because you really said a lot in a couple lines.

First, like 2andblue and KiowaEagle wrote..."Ride your own ride!" If those in the group are really your friends, they will respect that. If not, find real friends.

Second, you're smart in not riding faster through a corner than you can see. I rode with some guys from British Columbia a couple summers ago. They were fast. But they were counting on the road being good on the other side of the corner where they couldn't see. One guy went a bit wide on a corner and his bike went into the ditch. The guy behind him, followed him in. I still can see in my mind the first guy's C14 flying into the air cartwheeling and flopping around like a rag doll...with the rider in the same area. And then horror as I watched the second rider who was only half a second behind him, following him in. I'm surprised no one got killed.

My local riding is in the Pacific Northwest. Back roads are blind corners. You just have no idea what's around the other side and the roads often have no shoulders, and steep dropoffs. Often through about 9 months of the year, what you might find on the other side of the blind corner, is a place where people have pulled out onto the road and left a lot of slick mud. Or gravel from the hillside above. Riding blindly and counting on the road to be perfect, is a recipe for disaster.

Group riding can be safe...or not. I tend to ride at the rear. Not because I can't ride fast...but because of things like the paragraphs above. I've seen where riders go beyond their skill set solely to prove they are a "man". I've also seen something I think is highly dangerous. I'll call it a "parade formation" where everyone is staggered and riding one second off the rider ahead of them, and two seconds off the rider ahead of them but on their half of the lane. That's good if you're in built-up areas where you can be split apart by other traffic and you're going at city street speeds. But when you hit the open road, to me it is time to open the spacing where each rider has the room to use both sides of the lane and has 2-4 seconds spacing from the bike ahead of them. It gives you both sides of the road to use, and allows you to look at more than the rear fender of the bike ahead of you. You can ride your own ride. I rode with a group that practiced that once throughout the entire ride, and when we went into a tight corner, everyone was a couple feet (like 2 feet) from the bike next to them. Scary. The ride leader came over at the halfway point to chastise me for hanging back...and I told him it was unsafe and said I'd make my own way back home.

Bottom line...ride your own ride. And live. ;)

Chris
 
Awesome advice in this thread and great to have documented in one spot. For me, its not about trying to show off or anything like that. Its more that I feel like I may be missing out on some fun.

Interestingly enough, I went out for an hour ride today after making suspension adjustments. I never set my rider sag on this bike and did so today prior to my ride. I was way off on my suspension, I needed to be 7 clicks out from fully clockwise and I was 8 clicks out from fully counter-clockwise. the bike feels much more nimble with the new suspension setting. Much easier to actually turn the bike. Just another thing to add to all of the great advice here,
 
You got quite a few different opinions here so I'm going to add mine. I read above, everything from race techniques to what sounds like, just pack it up and stay at the rear. Bud had the best advice with good tires (a given) but most importantly, "the bike is better than you are". The bike is quite good for a 700 pounder, and it won't let you down, which should give you some initial confidence. So, I've got 3 or 4 things for you, and these are all intended for street riding! that you can practice and use.

1) Late apex cornering will save you from going off the edge of the road or hitting a truck head on, depending on which hand turn. In other words, go into a left hander about a foot from the edge of the road and make your turn so that you come off about a foot from the center line and parallel to said center line. It keeps you from running off the edge of the road and once you gain confidence with some speed, you can gas it up a lot sooner than the guy drifting out to the edge; and pass him if you want on the inside. Also called squaring of a corner, but not nearly as dramatic. On a RH turn, go in about a foot from the centerline and come off parallel to, and a foot from, the edge line. This will save you from drifting wide and hitting that truck you couldn't see coming. I first heard this concept at a Cog National in Tomah, Wi about 12 years ago, some young woman was giving us a classroom instruction, this made sense and I've practiced it since that time. It does take some practice but it's worth it.

2) Get some Techspec Snakeskin gripper pads for your gas tank. Grip those pads with your legs/knees so as to support your body with your core muscles. This allows you to keep almost all of you weight off the handlebars. The lighter the grip the better. You can't go into a corner with both arms locked, it simply won't turn. So, with your arms relaxed and body supported by your core, the bike is able to do its thing. kind of like giving a horse its head. A good way to practice riding with relaxed arms is to do almost panic stops with only the brake hand on the handlebars. Also, a good way to practice riding in general, and especially going into a corner, is to ride with one hand. That way it's impossible to stiffen the arms for support. If your hands, arms or shoulders get tired then you're doing it wrong. Especially if your back between the shoulder blades are sore or cramping.

3) When you go into a corner, lean in and try to touch your chin to the mirror, not dramatically, just in that direction. People make such a big deal about moving your butt, but that's not necessary doing what you're trying to do.

4) Be very gentle on the brakes and gas in the middle of the turn

5) If you find that you've gone in the corner too fast and your first reaction is to grab a bunch of brake, DONT do it, the bike will stand up and go straight. Don't waste a split second on even thinking about it. Just relax your elbows, I like to say, "go limp"; do the chin to mirror thing, don't touch the throttle or brake, and just ride it through. The bike is good enough to do that for you. After you scare yourself once or twice in this situation you will gain confidence. And it's really about having confidence that you can handle what's around the curve within your skill set. And your skills will improve with more confidence.
 
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laker9142 said:
You got quite a few different opinions here so I'm going to add mine. I read above, everything from race techniques to what sounds like, just pack it up and stay at the rear. Bud had the best advice with good tires (a given) but most importantly, "the bike is better than you are". The bike is quite good for a 700 pounder, and it won't let you down, which should give you some initial confidence. So, I've got 3 or 4 things for you, and these are all intended for street riding! that you can practice and use.

1) Late apex cornering will save you from going off the edge of the road or hitting a truck head on, depending on which hand turn. In other words, go into a left hander about a foot from the edge of the road and make your turn so that you come off about a foot from the center line and parallel to said center line. It keeps you from running off the edge of the road and once you gain confidence with some speed, you can gas it up a lot sooner than the guy drifting out to the edge; and pass him if you want on the inside. Also called squaring of a corner, but not nearly as dramatic. On a RH turn, go in about a foot from the centerline and come off parallel to, and a foot from, the edge line. This will save you from drifting wide and hitting that truck you couldn't see coming. I first heard this concept at a Cog National in Tomah, Wi about 12 years ago, some young woman was giving us a classroom instruction, this made sense and I've practiced it since that time. It does take some practice but it's worth it.

2) Get some Techspec Snakeskin gripper pads for your gas tank. Grip those pads with your legs/knees so as to support your body with your core muscles. This allows you to keep almost all of you weight off the handlebars. The lighter the grip the better. You can't go into a corner with both arms locked at the elbow, it simply won't turn. So, with your arms relaxed and body supported by your core, the bike is able to do its thing. kind of like giving a horse its head. A good way to practice riding with relaxed arms is to do almost panic stops with only the brake hand on the handlebars. Also, a good way to practice riding in general, and especially going into a corner, is to ride with one hand. That way it's impossible to lock up the old elbows.

3) When you go into a corner lean in and try to touch your chin to the mirror, not dramatically, just in that direction. People make such a big deal about moving your butt, but that's not necessary doing what you're trying to do.

4) Be very gentle on the brakes and gas in the middle of the turn

5) If you find that you've gone in the corner too fast and your first reaction is to grab a bunch of brake, DONT do it, the bike will stand up and go straight. Don't waste a split second on even thinking about it. Just relax your elbows, I like to say, "go limp"; do the chin to mirror thing, don't touch the throttle or brake, and just ride it through. The bike is good enough to do that for you. After you scare yourself once or twice in this situation you will gain confidence. And it's really about having confidence that you can handle what's around the curve within your skill set. And your skills will improve more confidence.
Click to expand...
"After you scare yourself once or twice in this situation you will gain confidence. "

And there it is. I was on the BRP a few years ago. I was trying to keep up with some faster riders. Entered a corner too fast, heard a voice inside my helmet screaming at me "Lean, lean, lean" I did and then I pulled over, got off and let the faster riders get so far ahead I wouldn't see them again till that evening. Never too old to learn. I found that I'm a quicker rider when I ride smoothly. Speeding up to a corner and then slowing down is not the way to go. YMMV
 
IKnowYouRider said:
Awesome advice in this thread and great to have documented in one spot. For me, its not about trying to show off or anything like that. Its more that I feel like I may be missing out on some fun.
Click to expand...
One thing I've realized as I've gotten older and wiser is that riding at the edge of my abilities is "fun"...till you crash. Even on a race track, you can say I did XXX mph and my lap times were such and such. But that and $5 or $6 will still get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...the same as it costs me. Or anyone else. It sounds impressive, but that's all.

If you wreck the bike, and assuming you can still type, you can tell us all about it and we'll commiserate with you. But it'll probably be months later when you can ride again...and you still have to buy a replacement bike. I've never seen a pool going on a forum to replace someone else's bike. So while everyone will congratulate you on how fast you were able to go...they won't help pay your bills.

I'll ride fast when I know the road and there's no other traffic. But most of the time, I'll dial it back to 85% or so. It's not just the riding that's fun, but also the chance to see the countryside you're riding in. If you're riding fast...you can't do anything more than look at the road. If you try to split your attention to both the road and the scenery, you may find both your bike and you need to be airlifted out of there.

There's only a few other riders that I've met who can ride faster than I can. But most of the time, I choose...and that bears repeating...I choose...to ride at the speed I want to ride at.

And riding at the rear of a group, is a smart move...especially if you have people who really don't know what they are doing ahead of you. That way, if (or when) they wreck, you aren't in the middle of it. :D

Chris
 
The motorcycle doesn't know if it is on the street or a track. A corner is a corner.
I would highly recommend you spend $50 bucks on champ U, I did:

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You can add a 10 % discount code for Champ U from Motojitsu's web site. I did a lot of the Motojitsu practice drills when I got back into riding.
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S Smith said:
Riding courses and track days should help to improve skills. However, riding on the street has potentially more risk of hazards than riding on the track.
Click to expand...
I agree, 100 percent.
Learning to maintain or change a line through a corner while braking or accelerating is applicable to either situation.
 
I'm reading between the lines in the OP's post, but it seems like the group he is riding with might well be treating the street like it is a track.

I could be wrong though and totally miss read the situation.

Chris
 
Hey Chris, not at all. Some of the people who posted on this post are people I have ridden with. Just looking to improve my skills. @Pmack thanks for the link, I signed up for Champ U today.
 
IKnowYouRider; You don't need to learn how to go faster. You need to learn how to improve your confidence level.
Lots of good info in this discussion.
Most important is; Ride your own ride, and ride SMOOTH!

Laker hit on some information that was shared with me when I did my first COG Rally.
ie; When you go into a corner lean in and try to touch your chin to the mirror, not dramatically, just in that direction.

I was told; When you go into a corner, don't "think" about the process of cornering. Just do what comes naturally.
They gave me an EZ way to learn the process (without thinking).
ie; As you approach a corner, roll off the throttle, stick yer chin out, and point "it" at the corner of your windshield.

Pointin' yer chin; Adds weight to the front end / shifts your weight to the inside / adds pressure to the inside grip / decreases pressure to the outside grip / decrease's death grip on the throttle (which allows EZ finger movement to the FRONT brake) / keeps your head and eyes pointed in the right direction / and ya look cool. (y)
Anddd, It all happens naturally (without thought) by just pointing yer chin.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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IKnowYouRider said:
I am new to group riding and I am finding myself slower in turns than the group.
Click to expand...
All good info, I comment here on the group ride aspect, which is a different animal than solo riding. Suggest approach group riding as a learning experience. In a group, you and I directly impact the rider behind us, his ride enjoyment and safety; yet someone up ahead sets the route and overall pace. Sometimes there are stated group ride rules, but frequently not.

In curves, try to simply follow the lines of the riders ahead. There you can observe; speed or not. But, but - because riders were ahead - you know there aren't any surprises around the bend following those lines. So, no surprises, no real sweat following their lines. Just find the right place to ride within the group:

A) Talk to the trip leader, ahead by phone is okay (or ask for a pre-ride meeting right at the meeting point [I have]).

Since you say you're slower, ask to ride 'sweep' or immediately before 'sweep.' This in-the-back positioning will take away your frustration, and the I'm-not-holding-anybody-up attitude will let you relax, enjoy the ride and follow others' lines through curves. Following lines is more important than speed when learning group riding, you can see what works. Following lines is more important than speed when learning group riding, you can see what works. (Intentional repeat) Also, it's just beautiful to watch bikes go around curves; appreciate it - it's part of the ride from the back. I do suggest you know where the next stop / meeting point will be; some leaders will wait at unfamiliar road junctions - ask.

B) But if you are in a group middle and someone rides close behind you, physically wave him to pass when coast is clear. Some riders won't pass unless waved on; so wave him on. I do that. But really, since you say you're slower, ride in the back unless / until.

C) Some group rides of >6 riders break the group into slow and fast sub-groups. Something to consider when you decide to put on a group ride yourself down the road.

Enjoy. Group riding is fun, different - a growth activity. It's made me tolerant of many riding things, and intolerant of a few.
 
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I am really enjoying the online Champ U courses. Excellent refresher for anyone who has taken the ARC courses in the past. And I think they explain it far better than the ARC course I took a few years ago. I was out today far more confident in the corners as I was focused and technical.
 
IKnowYouRider said:
... Just looking to improve my skills...
Click to expand...

Is it skills, or is it the voice in your head that tells you to take it easy around that blind corner since you can't see what is around it and public roads are full of crazy variables?

Physical skills are great but I've watched a lot of highly skilled riders go right into situations where physics dictate failure if road conditions aren't perfect. There is a combination of risk tolerance and willful blindness in play with brisk riding on public roads. If your stopping distance is 150 feet and the herd of deer standing in the road around the blind corner isn't visible until you are 100 feet away, your skills will only mean you'll hit them at a lower speed. Btdt, but thankfully in a car.

I mention this because in your initial post you mention "healthy fear going 'too fast' through turns I can't see through". That's maybe more about your own risk acceptance profile vs you new friends'.
 
Merle Lowe said:
I mention this because in your initial post you mention "healthy fear going 'too fast' through turns I can't see through". That's maybe more about your own risk acceptance profile vs you new friends'.
Click to expand...

Oh it is for sure, I have always been a very cautious rider on my bikes. But to improve from there, reduce the fear, you need to build confidence in both yourself and the bike. And I am not necessarily losing my fear but being more technical with my riding/body position and awareness to safely take corners faster than I have. Why? Because it is fun 🤩
 
Champ U was a good investment for me as a returning rider after a 15+ year hiatus.
The Motojitsu stuff got me over my fear of leaning the bike at parking lot speeds.
My brain's "lean angle sensor" was just off, compared to the old days.
Combining the revised lean angle sensor from parking lot practice with a refresher on technique from Champ U was exactly what I needed.
YMMV.
 
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