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H Frame

Brackets and such

Brackets and such

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This is the start of a portion of a thread involving cams and high powered concours. My name was invoked so here is the info as it developed.

2) Yes there is a way to strengthen the frame mounting points and I believe the honorary knowledgeable Laker is the man!! on that so hopefully he exits the seat and cup holder conversations and chimes in on the fun page, PLEASE NOTE PEOPLE OF COG I WAS JUST JOKING ABOUT SEATS AND CUP-HOLDERS REALLY WAS :)
 
No cup holder, flower sniffin or 2-hour lunch's here. I'll post up some pictures for your viewing pleasure. I actually forgot what I had already figured out 10 years ago when I went thru this. While I do agree that the frame probably comes into play after the gyrations start. The main culprit is the axle! That poor skinny but LONG rear axle is asked to tie both sides of the tetra-lever system together all by itself. If you remove the wheel/axle you will notice that the 2 sides are completely independent. Because of the flexy axle, the drive shaft side starts to move up and down before the right side and eventually you have an axle that looks like a whip. Unlike a normal swingarm which is cast as one piece, or if a welded unit, it will have a giant gusset just in front of the tire. The more power the beefier the swingarm. So, my H-frame addresses this by tying the 2 sides together and consequently does transfer some of the load to the upper strut tabs, thereby reducing the stress on the swingarm mounts. I wish I would have added more gusseting but since its already electroless nickel plated i didn't want to mess that up with more welding. But it works just fine the way it is. No more high-speed wobbles. For those that are unaware, I had an issue of the rear tire moving 2 inches total, left and right at the top of the tire, while riding in Mexico around some high-speed sweepers. And it continued to get worse even at lower speeds like in Missouri. I'm told by the nice folks on the other forum that machinists are a dime a dozen and basically anybody can do this. So, it really should be common knowledge. 🤣:unsure:✌️

I forgot to mention anything about cams.

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laker9142 said:
No cup holder, flower sniffin or 2-hour lunch's here. I'll post up some pictures for your viewing pleasure. I actually forgot what I had already figured out 10 years ago when I went thru this. While I do agree that the frame probably comes into play after the gyrations start. The main culprit is the axle! That poor skinny but LONG rear axle is asked to tie both sides of the tetra-lever system together all by itself. If you remove the wheel/axle you will notice that the 2 sides are completely independent. Because of the flexy axle, the drive shaft side starts to move up and down before the right side and eventually you have an axle that looks like a whip. Unlike a normal swingarm which is cast as one piece, or if a welded unit, it will have a giant gusset just in front of the tire. The more power the beefier the swingarm. So, my H-frame addresses this by tying the 2 sides together and consequently does transfer some of the load to the upper strut tabs, thereby reducing the stress on the swingarm mounts. I wish I would have added more gusseting but since its already electroless nickel plated i didn't want to mess that up with more welding. But it works just fine the way it is. No more high-speed wobbles. For those that are unaware, I had an issue of the rear tire moving 2 inches total, left and right at the top of the tire, while riding in Mexico around some high-speed sweepers. And it continued to get worse even at lower speeds like in Missouri. I'm told by the nice folks on the other forum that machinists are a dime a dozen and basically anybody can do this. So, it really should be common knowledge. 🤣:unsure:✌️

I forgot to mention anything about cams.
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Intelligent Engineering with Beautiful Craftmanship hats off to you Laker, Do you market this fix?


Bud​

Very nice work David.​

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laker9142
I might make some of the H frames. Sadly, that was a cut and fit kind of project, and I didn't make any drawings. So, I'd have to take mine apart to copy and make sure the new one fit. So that might happen this winter if somebody wanted one. The other thing is, in Jeffs case, where he's massively twisting the rear wheel (because of the driveshaft), it may also overpower the upper strut tabs where the H frame attaches. So that may need some gusseting. I'd have to look at it. The H frame is 90% of the fix, the rest of that stuff is nice and rock solid, but probably unnecessary, especially for straight line work.

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laker9142 said:
I might make some of the H frames. Sadly, that was a cut and fit kind of project, and I didn't make any drawings. So, I'd have to take mine apart to copy and make sure the new one fit. So that might happen this winter if somebody wanted one. The other thing is, in Jeffs case, where he's massively twisting the rear wheel (because of the driveshaft), it may also overpower the upper strut tabs where the H frame attaches. So that may need some gusseting. I'd have to look at it. The H frame is 90% of the fix, the rest of that stuff is nice and rock solid, but probably unnecessary, especially for straight line work.
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Thanks Dave I probably could use your set up on this bike in the future so I will reach out come winter
 

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sean97123638 said:
Would you strengthen the top of the H like you strengthened the middle?
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That was mentioned in post 81.
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Also, I was just thinking (remembering) about another benefit to the H frame. Those 2 individual, stock, aluminum struts are shaped like an S and are weak enough that they act like a spring, an undamped spring. So, they absorb the energy from the wheel movement and immediately release it. That energy never makes it to the damper where it can be controlled. On my 3-way adjustable Penske I had to soften the high-speed setting from just past halfway to almost full soft.

I "think" the reasoning would be that since what must be a significant amount of energy is undamped in stock form, the shock is valved stiffer to really slow down what energy it does receive. Thereby giving the illusion of a medium valving. I'm still working on that explanation, but I do know for a fact when I first installed the H frame it felt like I was riding a hard tail. So much so that I thought I must have really screwed something up like a bind, or clearance issues or something! But no, the answer was softening the high-speed valving.
 
Sean asks:
Thank you Laker. Working the science of suspension. Question: What would be a ballpark cost for this excellent upgrade ?
 
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Somewhere between $300-$400 depending on how well it goes and the actual cost of powder coat. I threw in 25 for that. I have had other inquiries and I'll probably have to build some kind of down and dirty jig which hasn't been factored in. But I would eat that if I can get enough interest.

The cost surprised me too but there's more to it than meets the eye. For instance, the rod ends and rod end adaptors plus tubing costs is $80, powder coat 25? possibly buy stamped out gussets $10 each for 40 total. 5 pieces of tubing to prep and 12 welds. Adds up quick.

Im going to try to move all this H frame stuff over to the vendor area. Stepped on Jeffs thread pretty bad.
 
Sean asks;

Thank you Laker. That's great value considering the upgrade and fabrication. I'm ready when you decide to build. Is it necessary to powder coat ? I have a powder coater in Florida that does ceramic coating. I would do ceramic instead. As previously mentioned, I would strengthen the upper portion of the H bracket using the same engineering in the middle portion. The triangle support seen in photo #1. Question: Is the main bushing upgrade in this kit capable of eliminating most of the flex (Left to Right,) in the rear suspension ? Curious...
 
I'm not sure what you're asking about the triangle piece. It is not included with the H frame though. I assume the bushings upgrade you speak is the replacement of the stock needle bearings with ball bearings as pictured. The answer is yes it eliminates ALL flex left to right. The problem with that procedure is that I would have to have the bike in my shop to add those mods. Mostly for measuring and fitting, plus some grinding and filing for clearance.

No need to powder coat. I can leave it bare. Its just that someone else wanted powder coat instead of nickel plate like I did. Seemed like a fair request for color.
 
Hello Laker. The triangle piece I was referring to is the reinforcement on your H bracket. Is it called "gusseting ?" I assume that the bearing upgrade you offer would eliminate over 50 % of the flex you refer too, correct ? If that is the case, bearing replacement for a street driven bike would be a significant improvement over stock. I believe the H bracket would be for racing only. I am interested in your entire kit thou. How many bearings would need to be upgraded if I were to replace them ? Would you need the bike to replace the bearings ? If you are out of the state of FL, it would be out of the question. Could you fabricate the bearing kit for my application ?

Thank you,
Sean
 
It appears the two lower swing arm pivot points would be the main players in the swing arm flex Laker. 2 bearing upgrades would make a considerable improvement in the flex. What is your thoughts ?
 
Sean, As stated earlier;
1) I would need your bike in my shop to do the bearing replacement. I'm in Ohio. it would be expensive.
2) The triangle pieces you speak of are called gussets and will be added to the front side of the H frame.

sean97123638 said:
I believe the H bracket would be for racing only.
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I don't know about that. But I would agree that the majority of Concours riders may or may not benefit from these mods.
 
Hello Laker. It appears this project will not become a reality due to cost and distance. You did mention earlier that you could use your bike as a cast in order to fabricate the kit or parts. You did say cost would be in the $ 400.00 range. If you could duplicate the (2) bearings based on your bike, I would purchase them and have them installed here in Florida. Just a idea...

Thank you,
Sean
 
As stated before:

I would have to have the bike in my shop to add those mods. Mostly for measuring and fitting, plus some grinding and filing for clearance.

So basically the answer is no, I'm not interested in trying to coordinate fitment with someone in Florida who may not understand what I'm even talking about. You may be able to find someone down there to make this stuff for you, show them the pictures and it should be clear.
 
I do understand what you are talking about Sir. In your initial response during Jeff's discussion regarding the cam upgrade, you stated wait till winter in order for you to use your Connie as a cast to design a kit. There was no mention of bringing the motorcycle to your shop for fitment. You further stated it would range in price up to $400.00. In regards to the bearings in question. Could you not duplicate the bearing installed in your Connie ? No need to coordinate fitment of 2 bearings at the pivot points. My tech and I would be capable of install. Is the tolerance between two Connie swingarms that far off as to worry about the bearing fitment Laker ? Is this not similar to wheel bearing replacement ? There is a kit that fits all year models.. Pondering.....Thank you.
 
Sean, I don't know how you come to your conclusions. The only thing I ever put a price on is the H frame itself, and that was at your insistence. The only thing I ever said about all the other stuff is that's its nice and rock solid. I also said it's probably not necessary because the H frame is 90% of the fix. Those are the statements I made, please don't tell me I said something different. If you think I said something different, then you're reading it wrong. I will not be making any bearing replacement units. Those pics were for everyone's viewing pleasure. I won't comment on this subject anymore. Thank you for your understanding.
 
I'll be starting on some H frames soon. The cost will be approximately $500. Let me know in the next week or so if you have interest. I believe that 3 people are interested so far.
 
Yes Sir. I will take one. Question: Is this the H bracket only, or does it include the right side swing arm bracket also ?
 
That is only the H shaped unit. The triangular shaped piece is separate and probably not necessary. We've been through all this before, I believe the H frame unit fixes 85-90% of the flexing. If that triangle piece becomes necessary then I'll make those at a later date. After some ride time with the H frame. And they won't be cheap either. The windshield brackets are cheap, like a gift to Cogland.
 
This project is on temporary/indefinite hold. I have a different idea that may appeal to more people, which basically means easier to make and install. And cheaper.

This is another one of those things similar in nature to the windshield brackets......You don't know you need it until you try it. Or until it fails.
 
Interesting...Care to elaborate on your idea ?? Any timeline on the finished product ? Will this suspension upgrade work as well as your H bracket engineering ? Hmmmm....
 
sean97123638 said:
Interesting...Care to elaborate on your idea ?? Any timeline on the finished product ? Will this suspension upgrade work as well as your H bracket engineering ? Hmmmm....
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I think we should guess, and the first guess that is correct or the closest gets a free (whatever it is) one to be presented at this coming year's National. (y) (hopefully B'&S' bought it and will jump on board with this idea, I mean I wouldn't but he might?)

Here, I'll go first (just to make the rest of you look smart).....I think he is considering a whole new axle shaft that is much stiffer and stronger...because he said the current one is like a whip. Ted will probably have to have one on his RED C14 and there goes his rear trailer tie down system...woe is TED. :eek:
 
sean97123638 said:
Interesting...Care to elaborate on your idea ?? Any timeline on the finished product ? Will this suspension upgrade work as well as your H bracket engineering ? Hmmmm....
Click to expand...
No comment at this time because I still need to do a deep dive into it, including tearing mine apart. Could be many months

fartymarty said:
.I think he is considering a whole new axle shaft that is much stiffer and stronger...because he said the current one is like a whip.
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Incorrect.

Brackets and such said:
The windshield brackets are cheap, like a gift to Cogland.
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I'm getting ready to start a boatload of windshield brackets. They seem to sell as long as I have some to sell. This will be the raffle item again. Just got a shipment of materials in today.
 
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Ok Marty, I'll take a shot at this. The issue the H bracket addresses is the flex created by the driveshaft during acceleration due to the independent swing arm components. Each side acts on its own, not good.. The H bracket tied both sides together, thus eliminating a large percentage of the flex. Laker's complete suspension upgrade consisted of three components: The H bracket, bushing upgrade and right-side swing arm bracket, an impressive upgrade if I can say so. Looking at the engineering of this issue, I believe Laker will design some form of a straight "crossmember" crossing the upper back half of the swingarm system in conjunction with an upgrade in the swingarm bushing(s). This would eliminate seventy five percent of the flex occurring with the motorcycle, an excellent upgrade for any Connie owner. Just my two cents...Sean
 
It wouldn't affect my system, but (if it did) I've already developed a new design that allows more clearance for stock mufflers.
Laker's aware of my new design and it's not an issue with his new Bracket design.
I think he has a great idea.

Ted
 
Just curious if anything has been developed that could be bought and installed at this time.
 
zrxmax said:
Just curious if anything has been developed that could be bought and installed at this time.
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No not yet. But the prospects of it happening are looking up. I bought a second C14, so I plan to move all my existing stuff to the new one. Then the old one becomes a project bike. The BIG project is to convert to chain drive while maintaining the tetra lever swing-arm geometry. Hope to get to well under 600lbs. But in the process I will have the opportunity make some of those H frames. (Don't tell Andydude). No time frame right now.
 
Thanks for update.

Question... I saw some mention of high speed wobbles... hmmm.... I have never felt anything even remotely close to a high speed wobble in three years and over 30,000 miles. Is this issue caused by an under engineered rear suspension parts?

Another question. A single wheel trailer came with the purchase of my 2010 Connie. The trailer hitch had a steel bolt that went through the hollow axel... did that bolt do anything for keeping things solid with the swing arm? Add to that... would a solid axel ( more unsprung weight ) make a difference in terms of tying the swing arm together in a way that reduces the possibility of high speed wobbles?

I really like not having to deal with a chain on my Connie.... are you interested in drag racing and lower ETs than the average Connie?
 
zrxmax said:
are you interested in drag racing and lower ETs than the average Connie?
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I just want to be more like Sarah.

LOL. No, I like tight twisties and lighter is always better. Plus, I can't leave well enough alone.

zrxmax said:
Add to that... would a solid axel ( more unsprung weight ) make a difference in terms of tying the swing arm together in a way that reduces the possibility of high speed wobbles?
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I don't think so. I just measured deflection as per the photo, .040 inch movement with 28 lbs. .125 flex in both directions just with one hand pushing and pulling. Besides that, everything else in the assembly is weak enough, and with enough clearance bult in, that a perfectly rigid axle is still not going to make everything rigid from one side to the other. The axle will get stiffer when you tighten the nut but I don't know how much. I didn't go back thru this thread, but I may have implied earlier that the axle is more important than it really is.
zrxmax said:
I have never felt anything even remotely close to a high speed wobble in three years and over 30,000 miles. Is this issue caused by an under engineered rear suspension parts?
Click to expand...
As far as I know I'm the only one on this forum and other forums that has ever had the noticeable tetra lever flex. And it was bad. The top of the tire was moving left and right about 2 inches total. As witnessed by 2 people.
Also, a lot of people used to complain about the tire wearing on the left side more than the right. And that the bike wouldn't go straight if you let go of the handlebars.
 

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Have you ever seen the videos where Sarah eats it? No doubt in my mind that Sarah is an accomplished stunt rider and I respect that level of skill that required 100s of hour to accomplish. However... I don't think anybody is going to try these kind of stunts on a Concours... but then... some of the stuff I have seen riders do on Busa's is pretty amazing.

My rear tire is wearing perfectly as I would expect... no tetra never flex on mine.
 
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