High performance ignition; coils, wires, and spark

[JohnC]

Is there anyone with some knowledge or experience with any high performance ignition parts? I have the Dynatek hp coils and am starting to wonder if stock coils may be better? tcars John

 

[jaxrider]

John, Is there a specific problem you are trying to solve? Stock coils should work fine for the Connie. The last time I upgraded coils was back in the day, when I put an automotive ballast resistor and 3 car coils on my 1975 GT750. It helped at the time, but modern bikes (ones with electronic ignition) should not need an upgrade. David David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html

 

[slybonesjesse]

Having watched the theads over the years where the guru dudes are mon'n the Connie I dont see much effort spent on updated / aftermarket coils. - Stock coils - Igintion wires - Want to put in a plug for Murphs NGK plug wire kit. While stock in terms of wire size, resistance, the plug caps are much nicer than stock. They fit better, easier to get on and off without messing up the wire. The stock plug wires have been known to come apart. While not all that common, there has been more than one thread where someone has done a Valve Adj and the bike ran like crap afterwards. Traced back to plug wires. -- Cant say there is a performance improvement. But the reliability and ease of use improvement make these a mod IMO. - Plugs. The iridium plugs are expensive and many reports are of a slight mileage increase. And supposed to last for a lot of miles. NGK Iridium DPR8EIX-9 - Timing. Back in the early days some used to get a 4* ignition advance plate. Now days general feeling is the Connie as plenty of timing and the improvement came from increased cylinder pressure. And the better way to go would be the SISF Exhaust Cam sprocket. So now days you dont hear much about this. Although the few that I know that have done the timing mod, are happy with it and not having issues with detonation or forced to run 92 octane which are possible down sides to this mod. 2003 Concours, 56K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[lobo]

On my 03 I run both the advance plate and the cam gear mod. I have been happy with both. I started putting Xcel hot coils on my bikes back in the 60s when I rode a 1000 LTD and have put them on every bike I have had since. The main benefit I notice is quicker starting in cold weather which is useful in Wisconsin. With these mods and Steves Carb mods I average about 44 mpg when I'm pushing it and about 47 mpg when taking it easy. I havent seen a downside to any of these mods. I also recommend Murph's plug wire kit.

 

[JohnC]

David: This is the project 86 bike, I purchased the Dynatek high performance coils some time ago. As with most of this project, it has been a whole lot longer than anticipated. But I finally got around to putting the coils on and firing it off. Now I know I have some issues with the carbs, they too have been setting too long, but in a few more days I'll have time to check both items. But to make a long story short, I did do a plug check to make sure each was firing. In doing that I held each spark plug against the frame where I could see the spark, all were good. But to be quite honest, I was not impressed with the spark, I've seen better spark from a lawn mower engine. I've got the other connie apart, so I'm going to check the spark on it. If it seems stronger, then the stock coils go back on the 86 and we will go from there. As for plugs, I tried the Spitfire with the forked tip, not impressed, replaced with NGK stock. tcars John

 

[JohnC]

Ken: The only time I've ever gotten 44 mpg was downhill with a tailwind. Most usual it averages abut 38, not good. tcars, John, COG 4157, AMA & ROK Northeast Jawja AAD

 

[jaxrider]

I bought the harbor freight spark plug analyzer, with a neon bulb that sits inline between the wire and the plug to show the spark strength. It works ok but it sounds like you are doing something similar. David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html

 

[slybonesjesse]

So here is the wild a$$ thought for the day. How come no one has ripped apart an ignitor to see what was in there. Or where are the results. Here is my theory. We have those who will say ( and I believe ) that 4* timing advance is too much. And since its static advance across the board its 4* at idle as well as midrange and topend. But we do have those who have tried this and like it. And dont have detonation issues, etc. And use 87 octane, etc. When people do the 4* advance it seems we are moving the position of the pickup coils in relation to crankshaft position, by messing with the pickup coils plate. Something like that. My big assumption is this is static. And any advance by some RPM must be getting done in the ignitor. So I wondering if we can tear into the ignitor and find some resistor/capacitor circuit or 2 that controls this. Figure out how to maintain stock timing at idle and have a slight more advance in the midrange, and control the curve of the advance, etc. 2003 Concours, 56K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[Steve in sunny Fla]

The real trick is to use something like what the vmax or voyager use, an ignitor with a MAP sensor built in. In this manner you could have alot of timing on light thottle for great fuel economy, and then rely on the base timing advance for WOT operation. I bet with this system 47 to 50 mpg would be common. steve

 

[Ron Moss]

Steve wrote "The real trick is to use something like what the vmax or voyager use, an ignitor with a MAP sensor built in. In this manner you could have alot of timing on light thottle for great fuel economy, and then rely on the base timing advance for WOT operation. I bet with this system 47 to 50 mpg would be common." OK when are you going to build it?? (Of course in your spare time)

 

[brooke.benfield]

I have opened up my C10 igniter and there is a bunch of electronics in there which determine advance based on RPM. The stock curve is very simple, being "all in" at 3500 RPM if memory serves me correctly. It seems to me that there are improvements to be had with a more sophisticated approach to ignition timing. Consider the ZRX1100 setup which has a throttle position sensor on the throttle shaft which sends position info to the igniter. I proposed several years back on "another forum" that somebody try out the ZRX carbs, igniter and trigger plate on a C10 and the idea was met with less than tepid interest. I realize the ZRX trigger plate might need modifying to fit the C10 crank but it all seems doable. Steve in Sunny Fla's idea on a MAP sensor also sounds great. What do you all think about the ZRX stuff on a C10 idea? (ducking, running for cover, quivering in fear)

 

[jaxrider]

That is an interesting point about the throttle position. My big twin 2004 Intruder 1500 (carburetors) has one and my 2002 ZZR1200 has the same thing, big carbs and throttle position sensor. David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html

 

[slybonesjesse]

being "all in" at 3500 RPM if memory serves me correctly

I believe that is correct. 10* BTC at 1000 rpm and 35* BTC at 3500 rpm. I pretty much assumed there would be electronics in the ignitor. I dont think we should be afraid of them. Can we reverse engineer a ignitor and come up with a schematic diagram. This should not be that hard for someone with an electrics background. Also in that C10 ignitor electronics, was there a programmable EPROM in there. I used to work for an EPROM programming company. I know we can get the code out of that and take a look. Maybe there is a lookup table in there that can be updated. If someone sends me a spare ignitor that is not being used I will take on the project. While I like the idea of the MAP sensor, or even the ZRX setup with throttle position, this seems more of a project than many would want. At least off the top my head w/o knowing any details my poor little brain says its more than $50-$75 bucks. Does the jetting need fixed, possible wiring harness changes, etc. Seems like a bit much.-- But I do like it, in that it would be much better than what I proposed. My WAG of a modified ignitor idea is thinking along the lines of the $50 dollar exhange your stock innitor for a reworked ignitor. Designed to give a bit more midrange, which is what everyone reports with the 4* advance. Something that maybe complements a Jet kit and Cam sprocket. I guess I was thinking that since we dont know what in there, we dont know what our options are. If we could get one reverse engineered or some to hack the software, or what ever is needed then guys like Steve could tell us the tweaks we can make. 2003 Concours, 56K COG #6953 IBA 28004 http://home.comcast.net/~slybones/Concours/connieMain.htm

 

[zorlac]

I guess. But as Sherm said, she'll still be the tallest midget. Would a circuit the could advance or retard the pulses from the pickup coils headed into the ignitor accomplish the same result?

 

[jaxrider]

It seems like it would be easier to swap a set of carbs from another bike like the Z-Rex and the ignition module and the pickups. However, since the C10 wiring harness does not support the extra connections, a major project would be needed to wire it all up and make it reliable. C10 owners are the most farkl-icious folks I've ever met, and I was a major farkler myself while I owned my '97. I added Steve's cam sprocket and lots of stuff from Murph (tip-over bars) and wired my headlight separately and added heated grips and put on a front and rear modulator with good success. This one will be interesting to watch develop. David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html

 

[brooke.benfield]

I think it would be relatively simple to swap the ZRX stuff onto a C10. The areas of concern as I see them would be: 1. Will the carbs mate up with the C10 head, airbox, and throttle/enrichener cables 2. Can the ZRX trigger plate be adapted to fit the C10 crank end 3. Will the C10 pickup coils work or do the ZRX units be required 4. Need to build an adapter assembly to connect the C10 wire harness and the extra wires from the throttle position sensor to the ZRX igniter 5. C10, ZRX or after market ignition coils? 6. ZRX carb jetting Regarding #1, if the carbs just won't physically fit under the frame then we are done. Otherwise trying the ZRX carb boots and perhaps modding either of the ZRX/C10 airboxes might do the trick. Regarding #2, so long the static timing of the trigger plate is close to the C10 then I think this one could be easy. The height of the trigger poles might need altering or the hole in the center of the plate could be too large (bad - would have to make custom plate) or too small (good - drill out to proper size on some sort of machinist setup). The key way could be in the wrong place (bad - would need to make custom plate). Regarding #3, if the C10 pickup coils produce a pulse of sufficient amplitude then we should be good. Perhaps the ZRX units would fit better with the ZRX plate dimensions. Regarding #4, this would require careful analysis of the differences between the ZRX and C10 wiring diagrams. Building the adapter is a reasonably simple thing for an electronics guy to tackle and I'm sure there are plenty of C10 guys capable of this task. Regarding #5, if the primary windings in the ZRX/C10 coils are within 10 - 20% of each other then flip a coin. After market coils specified for either application should also be fine. Just know that primary windings with less resistance than the stockers will stress the igniter more. Regarding #6, this item may or may not need doing. The engines are reasonably close in displacement (55cc difference) and the peak HP is almost the same according to bikez.com unless their numbers are based on RWHP, then it would be like a 15-20HP difference. Anybody else have ideas?

 

[JohnC]

No, don't have any additional idea. But do have one thought, one of yall (you all) solve the problem, design one, build it, and I will most likely buy it. That person was right, we are one of the most farkel happy groups around. As to my progress, now re-building the front end. Once that is done I'll be back on the ignition and carbs, trying to get it to run smooth. As for progress, well the NightHawk is done, except for a good cleaning and pictures. I'll post a pic once I get some. tcars John

 

[Steve in sunny Fla]

Regarding brooks last post - installing the zrx 36's is easy. Use the zx1000 head side manifolds, and zx900 airbox side boots. as far as jetting is concerned, it has nothing to do with the HP, it has to do with the airbox intake as much as anything. In fact the zg1000 uses 32mm carbs, 125 mains, and 89hp. the zrx12 used 36mm carbs, 92 jets, and produces 112 hp. That kind of info is the basis for my "2 minute mod" jetting that I'm ironing out now. There's no way a stock connie with just carbs or tuning will pick up 15 to 20 hp. I do think #5 TQ and 5 hp is doable. The only real advantage of another ignition curve would be if a tps or map was set up to measure light/ part throttle and bump in more timing. The only real advantage would be to the fuel economy. Steve

 

[jaxrider]

I tend to think this would be more work than it seems (Murphy was right) and would not yield major benefits... and with more advance you may need higher octane gas. The C10 design is very good as-is and there are some nice enhancements to it (7th gear, cam sprocket, jet kit) but I would hesitate to go a lot further. Reliability is number one and with major changes to the wiring it could become less reliable. Of course, I'm keeping the other $0.98 after leaving my $0.02 here. David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html

 

[brooke.benfield]

My interest in the ZRX bits being moved over to the C10 is not about expecting a large increase in power. I'm more interested in better fuel mileage and throttle response. My wife rides a 2000 600cc Suzuki Bandit which has the same sort of ignition system as the ZRX. This bike is zippy in low to medium throttle applications and is such a pleasure to ride, but my C10 will walk all over the little Bandit in WFO acceleration contests and has a higher top speed to boot. I was thinking that the ZRX bits might impart to the C10 some of the manners of the Bandit. The throttle position information is combined with RPM and possibly gear selection (hadn't thought of that before now....) info to modify ignition timing. It just seems that not having any change in ignition timing from 3500 RPM to 10500 RPM leaves room for improvement. I agree that the whole deal may be more work than it is worth. I'm looking forward to Steve's 2 minute mod as his stuff is probably the best bang for the buck there is. I'm likely to spring for the exhaust cam sprocket and latest jetting kit and call it good.

 

[jaxrider]

Brooke, While not wanting to play devil's advocate, Kawasaki continues to make some awesome bikes. After I sold my C10 I sought the advice from my COG bro's. One strong suggestion was to consider the ZZR 1200. It was designed exclusively for the European market. The only concession to the US market is that the speedo comes with MPH instead of KPH. Seriously, it's got about 140rwhp stock, runs on 87 octane gas, has 17" wheels, 610watt alternator, better shock and forks, dual fans, dual fuel pumps (no petcock issues), gets better gas mileage and has more torque below 5k and more hp above 5k than most sport tourers on the road today. I have the choice of over 45 tire combinations from racing slicks to high-mileage touring rubber. And... you can buy a used model in extremely good shape for under 5k with less than 10k miles on it. I did two SS1000's last year on mine and love it. Givi makes bags or you can go with soft luggage, and it handles very well. In my situation this was the next step because I don't have to do ANYTHING significant to the bike. I did add GenMar risers ($100) to raise the bars up a bit and after having it for 18 months I did buy some GIVI bags for it, but it's a great bike stock. Insurance is cheap too, in my case about $225 a year full coverage. If it has a drawback, it's minor: It has a chain instead of a shaft. I use an Amsoil chain lube every 400 miles and adjust the chain about every 5k miles. I spent $20 and went +1 on the front sprocket, which is a 6% gear reduction and I turn 5k at an indicated 90mph. Redline is 11k. If you are wanting a little more power and would consider a cool-looking bike, read the two reviews in my signature. The European one is interesting because he rode the bike, with full Givi bags, at 175 mph on the Autobahn until he went on reserve. I love mine. David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html

 

[colinp386]

Chaps, I love to read this thread! I'm happy to dive in and test and be part of any project. I have an electronics background but its over 20 years old now LoL but I can still make wiring looms and program Eeproms if need be. It's all about the journey and how you get there for me. My 1052 with all its mods (Steve's jet kit, 7deg cam, 7th gear) gets 47-50Mpg on a long run but it would be interesting to see what more I can get from it.

 

[brooke.benfield]

To davidsturgis; I read one of the articles you mentioned and the ZZR sounds great. My problem is that I just bought a brand new car (first time in my life to do that) two weeks ago so I'm sticking with the C10 for the next few years since my $$ are tied up for awhile. Bummer, huh? To colinp386; I've been flapping my jaws here about "my great idea" and that it should be "simple to implement", but I'm kinda wrapped up with two other projects for the time being. What a guy I is! I'm really thinking that my modifications will likely be limited to Steve's stuff after he gets the newest jetting/2 minute mod idea sorted out. Hopefully the new stuff will be ready in time that I could get it installed before the national rally. I might be more open to a project like this in 2011, so don't count me completely out. Of course, nobody has to wait for me - I say if anybody wants to get rolling with it now please do so.

 

[jaxrider]

Well, it's a good thing I live in Florida. If I couldn't ride throgh the winter, I'd have nothing else to do on the ZZR. I've had it almost 2 years and so far I've added genmar risers right after I bought it, and 20 months later I got a used set of Givi bags for it. Also heated grips and a Battery Tender cable. The Concours lends itself to a lot of farkles, and you guys keep inspiring me and making me want to do more. After reading Larry Buck's article on aux lighting I'm considering doing some thing on the ZZR. I may go with HID's since I may be able to install them in the stock housing. David in Jax COG# 7898 NE FL AAD & COG Vendor www.dreamjobresumes.com preparing resumes for COG members and friends I ride a KAWASAKI ZZR1200 - Euro http://www.motorbikestoday.com/reviews/Articles/ZZR1200.htm US http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/roadtests/2002_kawasaki_zzr1200/index.html