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How it works... lousy shifting

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Why Deceleration fuel cut doesn't affect the Concours 14 shifting qualities.

First of, some definitions:
Deceleration Fuel Cut – a feature in the ECU that stops the injectors from flowing fuel when the throttle is closed.
Secondary Throttle Plates – a second set of throttle plates upstream from the primary throttle plates. In carburetor terms, we would call this a “choke plate”.

Some may think it's a poor transmission, but that's not the case. The origin of the poor shifting originates from poor stock secondary throttle mapping within the ECU.

To understand, think of making an upshift. We “blip” the throttle to unload the transmission. We do not fully close the throttle, shift, then jerk the throttle back open. But in essence, that's what's happening because of the poor secondary throttle mapping.

Here's how it works. You turn the throttle tube, and open or close the primary throttle plates. The throttle shaft moves the throttle position sensor, which sends the message of throttle position to the ECU. The ECU the goes to a look up table and compares the gear you're in, rpm, and the amount of throttle applied. It then sends a message to an electronic stepper motor to open or close the secondary throttles based on the look up table values. So despite the fact that you are actually controlling the primary throttle the ECU has the ability to override your inputs.

When you “blip” the throttle, because you didn't completely CLOSE the throttle, fuel cut is never employed. The poor shifting is strictly the result of the stock secondary table closing the secondaries and making the bike ACT like you had fully closed the throttle during your shift.

How can I prove this? Ask someone who has take their secondary throttle plates out. The bike shifts fine, even though fuel cut is still active.

This also begs the question of what deleting fuel cut and letting the injectors run during deceleration can do to help the tuning. There are several advantages, but I think the most noticeable is that the power comes on smoother from a closed to open throttle.

Here's a good example of that – imagine running into a curve and closing the throttle. You do not change gears, and when you are needing power to exit the curve you apply throttle. In stock form, with fuel cut enabled, you will get a sudden “bang” of power and the bike will want to stand up and come off your line. With fuel cut disabled, the power will just come on smoothly like a carbureted bike, because the engine never stopped running.

As you see, shifting is not affected by fuel cut. Fuel cut deletion is useful, but not for better shifting.

Now you know.

Steve
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Surely Kawasaki knows all this. So do you have any theories as to why they do it this way?
For the same reason the bike has lousy suspension... building to a price point. My 2015 versys 1000 didn't have anywhere near as poor tuning from the factory, so it's like you said, it's not like they don't know this stuff.

Steve
 

fartymarty

SC AAD
Member
To understand, think of making an upshift. We “blip” the throttle to unload the transmission. We do not fully close the throttle, shift, then jerk the throttle back open. But in essence, that's what's happening because of the poor secondary throttle mapping.

Totally off the point you are making here about fuel cutoff and shifting quality....but..

Does everybody "blip the throttle" when making an upshift besides me? (upshift: does mean going from a lower gear to a higher gear. Right ? Like from 2nd to 3rd?)

I close the throttle as I pull the clutch lever, then upshift and then I release the clutch lever as I I reapply the throttle (not a jerk really, but fairly quickly). There is no blipping....at least not by me....seems to be a lot of blipping by Harleys as they downshift but then they are kinda into blipping anyway. The shifting quality on my C14 seems to be directly related to how smoothly I can coordinate the throttle shut off with clutch lever pulling and also how I coordinate clutch release and throttle application on the other side of the upshift. Basically I shift the C14 the same way I shift my manual transmission on my car, no blipping. I probably should blip on downshifting but since I have a slipper clutch ..why bother. Seems sort of like double clutching with a synchronized transmission, to what end?

As for fuel cutoff, I always assumed that it was to reach some EPA pollution (unburned hydrocarbons) number....not sure what the price point of the bike has to do with it but then I have nowhere near the fueling knowledge nor even the ICE knowlege of most of you have. I just assumed that if there is no fuel burned or unburned flowing out the exhaust then there is no pollution and that momma Kaw took every opportunity to shut it off and still make a motorcycle that moved.

I know my ignorance is on display here, I don't care. I'm here mostly to learn and occasionally (kinda rare really) help others...so please feel free to teach me what I apparently don't know about shifting. The need for, or desirability of blipping is a good place to start apparently.

(Sorry for the thread diversion Steve, unfortunately, it's what I'm good at. I'll not bitch if you ask a mod to move it to a new thread.)
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Totally off the point you are making here about fuel cutoff and shifting quality....but..

Does everybody "blip the throttle" when making an upshift besides me? (upshift: does mean going from a lower gear to a higher gear. Right ? Like from 2nd to 3rd?)

I close the throttle as I pull the clutch lever, then upshift and then I release the clutch lever as I I reapply the throttle (not a jerk really, but fairly quickly). There is no blipping....at least not by me....seems to be a lot of blipping by Harleys as they downshift but then they are kinda into blipping anyway. The shifting quality on my C14 seems to be directly related to how smoothly I can coordinate the throttle shut off with clutch lever pulling and also how I coordinate clutch release and throttle application on the other side of the upshift. Basically I shift the C14 the same way I shift my manual transmission on my car, no blipping. I probably should blip on downshifting but since I have a slipper clutch ..why bother. Seems sort of like double clutching with a synchronized transmission, to what end?

As for fuel cutoff, I always assumed that it was to reach some EPA pollution (unburned hydrocarbons) number....not sure what the price point of the bike has to do with it but then I have nowhere near the fueling knowledge nor even the ICE knowlege of most of you have. I just assumed that if there is no fuel burned or unburned flowing out the exhaust then there is no pollution and that momma Kaw took every opportunity to shut it off and still make a motorcycle that moved.

I know my ignorance is on display here, I don't care. I'm here mostly to learn and occasionally (kinda rare really) help others...so please feel free to teach me what I apparently don't know about shifting. The need for, or desirability of blipping is a good place to start apparently.

(Sorry for the thread diversion Steve, unfortunately, it's what I'm good at. I'll not bitch if you ask a mod to move it to a new thread.)

1) IMO, your shifting is slow and inefficient if this is how you effect all your shifts. Personally I can use or not use the clutch on upshifts. If using the clutch it's just a slight unloading, and the throttle blip is done simultaneously. It's as smooth as an automatic transmission. the throttle should never be closed during shifting.

2) price point tuning. That comment had nothing to do with fuel cut, it had to do with the lousy secondary throttle mapping.

3) Apparently I did a poor job in my writeup. I was trying to explain the separation between some of the rideability issues with the stock tune, and that it all isn't the fault of fuel cut.

Steve
 
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fartymarty

SC AAD
Member
1) IMO, your shifting is slow and inefficient if this is how you effect all your shifts. Personally I can use or not use the clutch on upshifts. If using the clutch it's just a slight unloading, and the throttle blip is done simultaneously. It's as smooth as an automatic transmission. the throttle should never be closed during shifting.

2) price point tuning. That comment had nothing to do with fuel cut, it had to do with the lousy secondary throttle mapping.

3) Apparently I did a poor job in my writeup. I was trying to explain the separation between some of the rideability issues with the stock tune, and that it all isn't the fault of fuel cut.

Steve
Well I think maybe the term that caused my confusion was the "blip" if I'm understanding your second post correctly you are blipping the throttle off not on..well OK not "off" but less. I've always associated blip with a quick on and then off/less, it appears your usage is just the opposite. So now I understand you are applying slight up pressure on the shifter and blipping the throttle to a lesser open position to make the gear change.
I will continue to shift in my slow and inefficient manner but I now understand your post and can issue my usual Emily Litella "NEVERMIND"
Steve, thanks for the follow up to my diversion and the clarification of your main point.
 

freebird6

Member
Member
Nice subject.

Just went through some lousy shifting. (I am a clutchless shifter rolling off with slight pressure already applied for the upshift) , I finally decided that even with Rotella the shifts were hinky at about 42-4800 miles on the oil. I had planned to change it but another rider convinced me to take it to 5K Once I got home from the Upper Pennisula I immediately changed oil and noted the shifts were MUCH better.

After reading your posts I am interested to ride tomorrow morning . Will I be able to notice a difference in the bike shifting with the Mountain RUnner if I switch to ECO ?
 

Konehead34

Member
Member
Funny. But im with marty. I blip the throttle on 'downshifts' without using the clutch thru the gears down to 2nd gear. I have always used clutchless upshifts from 2nd gear thru 6th, by slightly releasing throttle pressure as i shift up.

Never heard of a closing if throttle as a blip....
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
From my original post :

"To understand, think of making an upshift. We “blip” the throttle to unload the transmission. We do not fully close the throttle, shift, then jerk the throttle back open. But in essence, that's what's happening because of the poor secondary throttle mapping."


I never knew a blip had a singular direction.

This whole conversation about which direction a blip goes has brought the thread into the weeds. Focusing on something insignificant in the scheme of the things.

Reminds me of giving a kid a nice gift, and he plays with the box.
 
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Cloakanddaggeragent9

Member
Member
I enjoy technical forums with the emphasis more on engine building Turbos/SC/Nitrous/Big Bore/Stroker or really any power adder and approaching burn-out discussing camshaft timing and final LSA and performing dyno experiments with narrow and wide LSA on a Rotrex SC Revo engine and really needed a break so cruised on over here and just about laughed 🤣so hard and thank the lord for my strong core cause almost gave myself a hernia!

Blipping the antique Concours with the only modern part that is OEM installed (Slipper Clutch) is not really needed, but it helps in transition I guess and it makes you sound racy but no worries cause if you screw it up the clutch will slip until the crankshaft speed catches up
struggling since my membership ends in October and the fit is not there! But its post like this that will have me spending my money resigning, Keep them coming ;)
 

laker9142

Member
Member
Blipping the antique Concours with the only modern part that is OEM installed (Slipper Clutch) is not really needed, but it helps in transition I guess and it makes you sound racy but no worries cause if you screw it up the clutch will slip until the crankshaft speed catches up
struggling since my membership ends in October and the fit is not there! But its post like this that will have me spending my money resigning
Typical Hardley guy. This may help

These old antique Concours are simply awesome when you get to the end of the straight and need to negotiate a curve. One of my favorite things to do is pass Hardleys and watch them jump out of their seats as the awesome in-line 4 from Japan scares the crap out of them. I passed 6 at once on the dragon and they looked like whack a moles popping up and down.

So all this is said in fun as I hope your post was. You should come to a rally and enjoy some good riding with us. The forum is not where the good stuff happens.
 

texas.devops

South Central AAD
Member
My sped redding hez improv’d wunder fully two cents eye joy ned dis four um. LOL

Now, laughing like I am, my wife is wondering what I’ve been smoking. :^ )
 

Cloakanddaggeragent9

Member
Member
Typical Hardley guy. This may help

These old antique Concours are simply awesome when you get to the end of the straight and need to negotiate a curve. One of my favorite things to do is pass Hardleys and watch them jump out of their seats as the awesome in-line 4 from Japan scares the crap out of them. I passed 6 at once on the dragon and they looked like whack a moles popping up and down.

So all this is said in fun as I hope your post was. You should come to a rally and enjoy some good riding with us. The forum is not where the good stuff happens.
Had me rolling Its funny Lacker! Now even I know Harleys don’t turn worth a shit and that’s why I drag race one 😂

Really nice to invite me to y’all AARP group rinding shing A lings. Gotta tell you though between running a Diesel diagnostic software company and a Hardly Drag race team you have peaked my interest enough for me to make the time to come to ride with your group just hoping it’s more then sitting around clipping Depends coupons from the penny saver?

Let me know the next event you and the boys will be at the Tail bring a few Hardly riders hoping we can convert a few 😊😊
Of course this is all in Fun
Later Guys
 

texas.devops

South Central AAD
Member
Events are happening everywhere year around. As a member you can check out the posted events using the Quick Event List or reach out to one of the ADs (Area Directors) or AADs (Assistant Area Directors) for the region you’re in. Couldn’t tell you who would be nearest to your neck of the woods because your profile is hidden. 😉

That being said, I ride regularly with a group of pals who mostly own HDs. They’ve been bitten by that bug and are all in on the branding. We also have BMWs and Ducatis in the mix, but mostly HDs.

Me? I’ve ridden a number of them, from the breakout to the road glide to the ultra classic, but there’s just something about a motor not getting much past 4K RPMs that doesn’t resonate with me. Not sure how others feel, but I also can’t deal with the seating position (feet out front of my hips) because my lumbar is missing a few discs.

In any case, always happy to have more riders who know how to handle themselves and their machines. Feel free to reach out anytime.

Cheers, AB
7874D5B8-379A-400C-BBD8-153D42832643.jpeg
1B91FE49-8A24-49A4-AE05-2F038067908A.jpeg
 

Cloakanddaggeragent9

Member
Member
Events are happening everywhere year around. As a member you can check out the posted events using the Quick Event List or reach out to one of the ADs (Area Directors) or AADs (Assistant Area Directors) for the region you’re in. Couldn’t tell you who would be nearest to your neck of the woods because your profile is hidden. 😉

That being said, I ride regularly with a group of pals who mostly own HDs. They’ve been bitten by that bug and are all in on the branding. We also have BMWs and Ducatis in the mix, but mostly HDs.

Me? I’ve ridden a number of them, from the breakout to the road glide to the ultra classic, but there’s just something about a motor not getting much past 4K RPMs that doesn’t resonate with me. Not sure how others feel, but I also can’t deal with the seating position (feet out front of my hips) because my lumbar is missing a few discs.

In any case, always happy to have more riders who know how to handle themselves and their machines. Feel free to reach out anytime.

Cheers, AB
View attachment 34011View attachment 34012
You look good on that CVO Road Glide
 

fartymarty

SC AAD
Member
:oops:Reminds me of giving a kid a nice gift, and he plays with the box.
I guess that's me, I also learned to walk before crawling ..or so I was told. May have made others all dumber here, but now I understand some of Steve's posts going back to before the forum change and even pre-moutain runner flash (Decel flash) when he would talk about smoother shifting.
Which never computed with me until his earlier clarification in this thread....well once the blip thing was cleared up. ;)
Apparently I'm in the extremely small minority that use the clutch on every shift either up or down. Probably from a lifetime of manual shift autos.
It is also the way Mama Kaw recommends in the owners manual...but nobody reads that. It also explains why some of us skip gears in normal riding but others religiously use every gear every time.

I never knew a blip had a singular direction.
This whole conversation about which direction a blip goes has brought the thread into the weeds.

My fault Steve, I always thought the blip had a singular sequence, on and off. Apparently I got that wrong. I may have taken us into the weeds but in doing so I found the gist of what you've been saying about improved shifting from many years ago. For the record, while in the weeds I found an answer there. How all these other guys came out of the weeds with a bunch of Harleys....??? o_O:oops:
 
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Cloakanddaggeragent9

Member
Member
Totally get it! HD Bikes are not for everyone and we as a group of motorcyclists, and bikers whatever it is you want to call yourself it’s best to have a basic respect the choice of what they ride cause as humans we all fall into that trap of hasty Judgment and not everyone’s likes, needs or credit situations are the same. My View is we are the minority out in traffic and should cover each other’s backs and at least in my part of the South its common to wave to motorcyclist and Bikers with no prejudices of what brand their ass sits be a BMW or the 19-year-old kid on the clapped out GSXR 750s lane splitting and the point I’m trying to make is most of us where that kid and when someone breaks down or looks distressed you stop no matter if it’s a guy on a Goldwing dressed like the stay fresh marshmallow man or a 1% patch holder on a Harley you just stop and help that’s the code.

I ride everyday rain or shine in southern 105F or 39F. seen this on a T-shirt almost 36 years ago when HD was in fashion with Hollywood crowd during the 90s and the massive HD marketing department played it well and it trickled down to the locals who never conceded riding before until they seen a picture of Cher on the front cover of Peoples magazine with her legs around a Fat Boy and the local bank loan officer dressing like an outlaw biker with stick on tattoos during those weekends his or her kids had no soccer practice ! “30 Grand or 30 weekend miles does not make you a Biker”

Been into Harleys since the late 70s when most all Harley Dealers were small shops, and the staff were usually the local outlaw chapter my First street bike at age 18 was a 1965 Sportster XLCH kick start and magneto ignition. To me it was a Hot Rod yes there were faster bikes like the GS1100 or Z900, but it wasn’t long until I learned how to build that engine with stroker cranks, big cams, and Jerry Branch cylinder heads and turned the tables on those bikes, refuse to lie and say I beat everyone, but it held its own and people noticed!

That grew into a passion of professional drag racing Harleys and a Business that supported both racing parts and engine building, there are many hobbies people play in but a passion for something screws you for life!

If there is one thing that draws me to Harley, is you can open one of 100s aftermarket catalogs and restore a 48 Pan-Head, build a Complete Evo any-thing or something that looks like a JC Whitney catalog Vomited on, or turn you M8 four valve into a very quick capable machine or a street driven week-end mid-10 second bagger in the ¼ mile or something just in-between and its cheaper on the wallet then other brands.

I have a passion for Italian bikes and own a couple of Moto Guzzis and Ducati Panigale V4 Corsa, and My very fast Black Betty Concours 14 with ZX14 Exhaust cam and throttle bodies, V-rod drag bike and in the process of building a TTS Rotrex supercharged V rod that will turn, stop, and accelerate with a mass-produced superbike.

I do not tune Japanese motorcycles, nor an expert on tuning there are some good guys out there that have made a life perfecting there craft it’s just not mine, do not hate them but find the there factory ECU tuning is the worst in the world and its not for emissions cause most run rich in all the wrong spots and lean in the others, nope the Japanese are just cheap and do not invest in the RD if it runs good enough then its good enough.. Just wanted to give this club a little of who the person is sitting 18 inches from the keyboard and plan to stick around and throw my two cents into the ring once and a while you just never know what you can learn when you listen or if I can help someone one day with a similar issue. And pretty sure we will meet at a gathering or living a few hours from the tail the possibilities are endless!

Hey Laker here are a few pictures of my latest and trust me! this one Turns real well just notice the suspension and how high the floor boards are mounted along with everything being carbon fiber with a wet weight of 662 its built to turn and the motor its little :rolleyes:
 

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Konehead34

Member
Member
Is upshifting without the use of the clutch very common? I've always used the clutch but would like to try without as long as no damage occurs.
40k miles on my current c14 without any clutch issues. I use clutch , from 1 to 2, but 2thru 6th are clutchless.

75k on my previous bike a 1998 c10. No clutch issues when i said goodie to that one. Same pattern as my c14.

I dont do it on a heavy throttle accel...just cruising. I preload the shifter and at or around 3500rpm roll off the throttle slightly and flick shifter up to next gear. It gets smoother and easier the more u do it...
 

texas.devops

South Central AAD
Member
Is upshifting without the use of the clutch very common? I've always used the clutch but would like to try without as long as no damage occurs.

Yes, I started going clutchless once I found out that it isn’t a problem with the C14’s trans about 15,000 miles ago. Patrick (Konehead34) is speaking truth. A super quick, minuscule roll-off (aka ‘a blip’) of the throttle will relieve pressure on the clutch and allow for a quick pull of the left foot to upshift without having to use the left lever.

Now, for downshifting, I pull in the clutch lever and give a quick, minuscule twist (also known as ‘a blip’) of the throttle to rev match the motor to the lower gear I’m stepping down to so that I don’t temporarily lock up the rear wheel. I want to use the engine for braking (without sliding my ass end around on deceleration). That saves on tires and is safer than just manhandling the front brake.

Steve said it quite well in previous posts, in that this isn’t the ZX14 motor that you can abuse with near impunity by regularly downshifting while near the top end of the rev limiter. For our machines, the 5-pound weight on the end of the VVT will shear its retainer and give all sorts of expensive headaches if you’re really abusing things too often with this C14 head. So just use it wisely.

And there are also a few threads talking about how good/bad this dry sump tranny will shift depending on which oil you’re using. Some of our riders have over 250,000 miles using T6 and have had zero wear and tear issues beyond normal maintenance, all while clutchlessly upshifting. Others have reported that some of the synthetics have made their shifting a bit too clunky for their liking, so they changed their lube to something a bit thicker and reported back that things improved for them.

Personally, I don’t know yet. But I’m right at the mileage to change my fluids and have purchased T6 to see how it goes. I’ve been using 20W50 dino juice for this first approx 17,200 miles (the first 600 break-in miles were still on factory lube) and have had nothing but good experience with shifting clutchlessly. I’m planning to post up again (on this thread or another) after I’ve had a chance to drain and fill and then ride a couple hundred miles.

Hope this helps. Happy to hear from others!

Cheers, AB
 
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laker9142

Member
Member
Hey Laker here are a few pictures of my latest and trust me! this one Turns real well just notice the suspension and how high the floor boards are mounted along with everything being carbon fiber with a wet weight of 662 its built to turn and the motor its little :rolleyes:
I can feel a comparison coming on! It is a beautiful motorcycle, looks similar to the motoamerica twins class. I've often wondered how a Concours would do in that class.
 

sean97123638

Bicycle
Forum Subscriber
Totally get it! HD Bikes are not for everyone and we as a group of motorcyclists, and bikers whatever it is you want to call yourself it’s best to have a basic respect the choice of what they ride cause as humans we all fall into that trap of hasty Judgment and not everyone’s likes, needs or credit situations are the same. My View is we are the minority out in traffic and should cover each other’s backs and at least in my part of the South its common to wave to motorcyclist and Bikers with no prejudices of what brand their ass sits be a BMW or the 19-year-old kid on the clapped out GSXR 750s lane splitting and the point I’m trying to make is most of us where that kid and when someone breaks down or looks distressed you stop no matter if it’s a guy on a Goldwing dressed like the stay fresh marshmallow man or a 1% patch holder on a Harley you just stop and help that’s the code.

I ride everyday rain or shine in southern 105F or 39F. seen this on a T-shirt almost 36 years ago when HD was in fashion with Hollywood crowd during the 90s and the massive HD marketing department played it well and it trickled down to the locals who never conceded riding before until they seen a picture of Cher on the front cover of Peoples magazine with her legs around a Fat Boy and the local bank loan officer dressing like an outlaw biker with stick on tattoos during those weekends his or her kids had no soccer practice ! “30 Grand or 30 weekend miles does not make you a Biker”

Been into Harleys since the late 70s when most all Harley Dealers were small shops, and the staff were usually the local outlaw chapter my First street bike at age 18 was a 1965 Sportster XLCH kick start and magneto ignition. To me it was a Hot Rod yes there were faster bikes like the GS1100 or Z900, but it wasn’t long until I learned how to build that engine with stroker cranks, big cams, and Jerry Branch cylinder heads and turned the tables on those bikes, refuse to lie and say I beat everyone, but it held its own and people noticed!

That grew into a passion of professional drag racing Harleys and a Business that supported both racing parts and engine building, there are many hobbies people play in but a passion for something screws you for life!

If there is one thing that draws me to Harley, is you can open one of 100s aftermarket catalogs and restore a 48 Pan-Head, build a Complete Evo any-thing or something that looks like a JC Whitney catalog Vomited on, or turn you M8 four valve into a very quick capable machine or a street driven week-end mid-10 second bagger in the ¼ mile or something just in-between and its cheaper on the wallet then other brands.

I have a passion for Italian bikes and own a couple of Moto Guzzis and Ducati Panigale V4 Corsa, and My very fast Black Betty Concours 14 with ZX14 Exhaust cam and throttle bodies, V-rod drag bike and in the process of building a TTS Rotrex supercharged V rod that will turn, stop, and accelerate with a mass-produced superbike.

I do not tune Japanese motorcycles, nor an expert on tuning there are some good guys out there that have made a life perfecting there craft it’s just not mine, do not hate them but find the there factory ECU tuning is the worst in the world and its not for emissions cause most run rich in all the wrong spots and lean in the others, nope the Japanese are just cheap and do not invest in the RD if it runs good enough then its good enough.. Just wanted to give this club a little of who the person is sitting 18 inches from the keyboard and plan to stick around and throw my two cents into the ring once and a while you just never know what you can learn when you listen or if I can help someone one day with a similar issue. And pretty sure we will meet at a gathering or living a few hours from the tail the possibilities are endless!

Hey Laker here are a few pictures of my latest and trust me! this one Turns real well just notice the suspension and how high the floor boards are mounted along with everything being carbon fiber with a wet weight of 662 its built to turn and the motor its little :rolleyes:
Thank you for sharing Jeff. You bring up very valid points regarding "our" riding brothers. They come in all shapes and sizes. I will also proffer and state I've previously met and became involved with some fake, lying motorcycle dip***** over the years. I would say you have to be careful with biker strangers and I have ridden with many people. I have ridden Jap bikes, Harleys, Triumphs and then some. By far, the Jap bikes are the strongest. If you have the $$$$, you can make anything fast...lol. I love to ride because it's visceral, something most people miss these days...Live to ride, ride to live...Sean
 

gilbysan

Member
Member
My 2c - IMO all riders, regardless of what they ride are our Brothers and Sisters. With the exception of scooter riders who are just different and do not see themselves as part of the sport, and they dress funny. We (motorcycle riders) have a unique and wonderful sport that we all enjoy in our own way. Having said this, whenever I come upon an HD rider(s) I can't help but start the "Flight of the Valkyries" by Wagner in my mind as I overtake and pass them (safely of course) never to be seen again. Just cannot help it. To be fair, the same thing happens when I catch up with Bimmers, other than the liter class sport bikes. Acknowledging our shared passion of riding is important to the future of riding, especially as the move from ICE type bikes gains momentum. I get the imperative to convert our ICE to electrics but riding a silent bike seems as anti-riding as it can be on two wheels. No engine vibrations, exhaust sounds, intuitively working the throttle, clutch, brakes, counter steering, all that while avoiding drivers and other flotsam and jetsam on the roads means that riders have to be multi-dimensional thinkers and doers compared to auto and electric motorcycle drivers.

Safe Riding!

Gilbysan, aka - FatNinja
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Blip; We've moved a long way from the original discussion; "Lousy Shifting and Why Deceleration fuel cut doesn't affect the Concours 14 shifting qualities". o_O

After re-reading the original post "I think" I better understand what he's saying.
But it's a fine line that everyone might not see, and I would like to read more about the theory.

My understanding.
The Blip (slight throttle movement) doesn't affect normal shifting because a Blip isn't enough throttle movement to engage Fuel Cut.
(In this case, disabling the Fuel Cut doesn't accomplish anything)

If you are fully shutting down the throttle (like coasting into a turn or fully closing the throttle during a shift) disabling the Fuel Cut is useful because it allows fuel to flow.
That fuel flow k
eeps the engine running and allows smoother transition when you re-open the throttle.
(In this case, disabling the Fuel Cut does accomplish something)

Smooth movement/better control of the Secondary throttle is the most important because it smooths shifting and also smooths transition when re-opening the throttle.
(In this case, {also} disabling the Fuel Cut does accomplish something)

So, he's not saying that disabling the Fuel Cut is a bad thing. Just that it doesn't affect shifting (when the throttle is not fully closed).


Am I understanding correctly?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Blip; We've moved a long way from Lousy Shifting and Why Deceleration fuel cut doesn't affect the Concours 14 shifting qualities. o_O

After re-reading the original post "I think" I better understand what he's saying.
But it's a fine line that everyone might not see, and I would like to read more about the theory.

My understanding.
The Blip (slight throttle movement) doesn't affect normal shifting because a Blip isn't enough throttle movement to engage Fuel Cut.
(In this case, disabling the Fuel Cut doesn't accomplish anything)

If you are fully shutting down the throttle (like coasting into a turn) disabling the Fuel Cut is useful because it allows fuel to flow.
That fuel flow k
eeps the engine running and allows smoother transition when you re-open the throttle.
(In this case, disabling the Fuel Cut does accomplish something)

Smooth movement/better control of the Secondary throttle is the most important because it smooths shifting and also smooths transition when re-opening the throttle.
(In this case, {also} disabling the Fuel Cut does accomplish something)

So, he's not saying that disabling the Fuel Cut is a bad thing. Just that it doesn't affect shifting.


Am I understanding correctly?

Ride safe, Ted

Yes, you're getting it. I bolded the statement about "smooth movement/ better control" and want to point out that this means smoother control BY THE SECONDARY MAPPING IN THE ECU, not the rider. Also if the throttle isn't fully closed on the upshift (the dreaded blip off/on) fuel cut doesn't even come into play. This is why the secondary mapping is such a big deal.

Steve
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I understood about the ECU/Mapping controlling the Secondary throttle.
Understand that partial throttle close is not the same as full throttle close.
Also realize that disabling the Fuel Cut can be useful if you fully close the throttle during shifting.
I changed my original wording in a couple of places.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
I changed my original wording in a couple of places.

Ride safe, Ted
I go over my word choices all the time before I post, particularly when it's something technical. There's always someone ready to pounce on me, take what I've said out of context, and then try to use it to discredit me. Even if they responded to something that was completely off the subject, like we saw on this thread. It seems like blood-sport to some folks.

Reminds me of the saying "I'm responsible for what I said, not what you think I said".

Steve
 

freebird6

Member
Member
Others have reported that some of the synthetics have made their shifting a bit too clunky for their liking, so they changed their lube to something a bit thicker and reported back that things improved for them.

Personally, I don’t know yet. But I’m right at the mileage to change my fluids and have purchased T6 to see how it goes. I’ve been using 20W50 dino juice for this first approx 17,200 miles (the first 600 break-in miles were still on factory lube) and have had nothing but good experience with shifting clutchlessly. I’m planning to post up again (on this thread or another) after I’ve had a chance to drain and fill and then ride a couple hundred miles.

Hope this helps. Happy to hear from others!

Cheers, AB
Good reply and I have been clutchless on 3 diff Connies now. With the MotoPro Shifter https://bullshiftsales.com/product-category/moto-pro-shifter/ in place I have been smooth up and down with more precise shifts and less fatigue over the course of a trip. I agree with the thicker lube being useful on the execution of shifts. I switched to the heaver 15W Rotella T6 and noted better shifts compared to the previously only available 5W. May be just my imagination but I do not think I will go back .
 

sean97123638

Bicycle
Forum Subscriber
Yes, I started going clutchless once I found out that it isn’t a problem with the C14’s trans about 15,000 miles ago. Patrick (Konehead34) is speaking truth. A super quick, minuscule roll-off (aka ‘a blip’) of the throttle will relieve pressure on the clutch and allow for a quick pull of the left foot to upshift without having to use the left lever.

Now, for downshifting, I pull in the clutch lever and give a quick, minuscule twist (also known as ‘a blip’) of the throttle to rev match the motor to the lower gear I’m stepping down to so that I don’t temporarily lock up the rear wheel. I want to use the engine for braking (without sliding my ass end around on deceleration). That saves on tires and is safer than just manhandling the front brake.

Steve said it quite well in previous posts, in that this isn’t the ZX14 motor that you can abuse with near impunity by regularly downshifting while near the top end of the rev limiter. For our machines, the 5-pound weight on the end of the VVT will shear its retainer and give all sorts of expensive headaches if you’re really abusing things too often with this C14 head. So just use it wisely.

And there are also a few threads talking about how good/bad this dry sump tranny will shift depending on which oil you’re using. Some of our riders have over 250,000 miles using T6 and have had zero wear and tear issues beyond normal maintenance, all while clutchlessly upshifting. Others have reported that some of the synthetics have made their shifting a bit too clunky for their liking, so they changed their lube to something a bit thicker and reported back that things improved for them.

Personally, I don’t know yet. But I’m right at the mileage to change my fluids and have purchased T6 to see how it goes. I’ve been using 20W50 dino juice for this first approx 17,200 miles (the first 600 break-in miles were still on factory lube) and have had nothing but good experience with shifting clutchlessly. I’m planning to post up again (on this thread or another) after I’ve had a chance to drain and fill and then ride a couple hundred miles.

Hope this helps. Happy to hear from others!

Cheers, AB
"The 5 pound weight on the end of the VVT will shear its retainer and give all sorts of expensive headaches."...I have heard this before Texas.Devops, with no specific evidence as to the event or use. I understand the physics of the VVT puck and can see the component causing damage if taken to an extreme. A forum member previously posted a damaged one, but could not explain what happened to cause the damage or the specific event the damage occurred in. Motorcycle owners can severely abuse their machines and wonder why components break as opposed to bouncing off the rev-limiter...Sean
 

sean97123638

Bicycle
Forum Subscriber
Totally get it! HD Bikes are not for everyone and we as a group of motorcyclists, and bikers whatever it is you want to call yourself it’s best to have a basic respect the choice of what they ride cause as humans we all fall into that trap of hasty Judgment and not everyone’s likes, needs or credit situations are the same. My View is we are the minority out in traffic and should cover each other’s backs and at least in my part of the South its common to wave to motorcyclist and Bikers with no prejudices of what brand their ass sits be a BMW or the 19-year-old kid on the clapped out GSXR 750s lane splitting and the point I’m trying to make is most of us where that kid and when someone breaks down or looks distressed you stop no matter if it’s a guy on a Goldwing dressed like the stay fresh marshmallow man or a 1% patch holder on a Harley you just stop and help that’s the code.

I ride everyday rain or shine in southern 105F or 39F. seen this on a T-shirt almost 36 years ago when HD was in fashion with Hollywood crowd during the 90s and the massive HD marketing department played it well and it trickled down to the locals who never conceded riding before until they seen a picture of Cher on the front cover of Peoples magazine with her legs around a Fat Boy and the local bank loan officer dressing like an outlaw biker with stick on tattoos during those weekends his or her kids had no soccer practice ! “30 Grand or 30 weekend miles does not make you a Biker”

Been into Harleys since the late 70s when most all Harley Dealers were small shops, and the staff were usually the local outlaw chapter my First street bike at age 18 was a 1965 Sportster XLCH kick start and magneto ignition. To me it was a Hot Rod yes there were faster bikes like the GS1100 or Z900, but it wasn’t long until I learned how to build that engine with stroker cranks, big cams, and Jerry Branch cylinder heads and turned the tables on those bikes, refuse to lie and say I beat everyone, but it held its own and people noticed!

That grew into a passion of professional drag racing Harleys and a Business that supported both racing parts and engine building, there are many hobbies people play in but a passion for something screws you for life!

If there is one thing that draws me to Harley, is you can open one of 100s aftermarket catalogs and restore a 48 Pan-Head, build a Complete Evo any-thing or something that looks like a JC Whitney catalog Vomited on, or turn you M8 four valve into a very quick capable machine or a street driven week-end mid-10 second bagger in the ¼ mile or something just in-between and its cheaper on the wallet then other brands.

I have a passion for Italian bikes and own a couple of Moto Guzzis and Ducati Panigale V4 Corsa, and My very fast Black Betty Concours 14 with ZX14 Exhaust cam and throttle bodies, V-rod drag bike and in the process of building a TTS Rotrex supercharged V rod that will turn, stop, and accelerate with a mass-produced superbike.

I do not tune Japanese motorcycles, nor an expert on tuning there are some good guys out there that have made a life perfecting there craft it’s just not mine, do not hate them but find the there factory ECU tuning is the worst in the world and its not for emissions cause most run rich in all the wrong spots and lean in the others, nope the Japanese are just cheap and do not invest in the RD if it runs good enough then its good enough.. Just wanted to give this club a little of who the person is sitting 18 inches from the keyboard and plan to stick around and throw my two cents into the ring once and a while you just never know what you can learn when you listen or if I can help someone one day with a similar issue. And pretty sure we will meet at a gathering or living a few hours from the tail the possibilities are endless!

Hey Laker here are a few pictures of my latest and trust me! this one Turns real well just notice the suspension and how high the floor boards are mounted along with everything being carbon fiber with a wet weight of 662 its built to turn and the motor its little :rolleyes:
Beautiful machine Jeff...That would be a hard run with the Connie...!
 

texas.devops

South Central AAD
Member
"The 5 pound weight on the end of the VVT will shear its retainer and give all sorts of expensive headaches."...I have heard this before Texas.Devops, with no specific evidence as to the event or use. I understand the physics of the VVT puck and can see the component causing damage if taken to an extreme. A forum member previously posted a damaged one, but could not explain what happened to cause the damage or the specific event the damage occurred in. Motorcycle owners can severely abuse their machines and wonder why components break as opposed to bouncing off the rev-limiter...Sean
I'll just drop this here for review. Believe it fully explains the concept, starting at the 4m30s mark +/-
 

Ivan_ipp

Member
Member
This is where that part came from and had nothing to do with high rpms.
You people will believe anything :ROFLMAO:


The backround of the part's failure (take notice of the date of when this happened)


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's all the stupid, half assed diagnosis to cover up a botched valve adjustment that caused the intake cam to seize in the head and shear off the VVT actuator.




:ROFLMAO:
 

Cloakanddaggeragent9

Member
Member
I can feel a comparison coming on! It is a beautiful motorcycle, looks similar to the motoamerica twins class. I've often wondered how a Concours would do in that

Beautiful machine Jeff...That would be a hard run with the Connie...!
I ran that one last night and it ran around the same time that a Connie bone stock would with a decent rider low 11s, Unless of course, you drank the cycling world Kool-Aid of corrected 1/4 times somehow they got a happy calculator to give them 10:67
 

ONOBob

Member
Member
This is where that part came from and had nothing to do with high rpms.
You people will believe anything :ROFLMAO:


The backround of the part's failure (take notice of the date of when this happened)


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Here's all the stupid, half assed diagnosis to cover up a botched valve adjustment that caused the intake cam to seize in the head and shear off the VVT actuator.




:ROFLMAO:



Your condescending and vulgar input is not appreciated, by me at least
 
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