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Mid-Grade Gas ??

I

IBAJIM

Guest
Guest
Anyone use mid-grade gas in their Gen1 C-14 ?

I'm wondering why Kawasaki specifies premium.

My Triumph Trophy SE has a higher compression ratio than the Concours ( 11:1 vs. 10.7:1 and the intake valve closes sooner, too ) and Triumph says regular gas is OK to use. I usualy run mid-grade in the Trophy.
And a few years ago when riding in Canada on my Concours, a station only had regular and it seemed to run just fine on regular.

I'm hoping Steve will chime in.
 
Assuming you're talking about Mid if Prem is not available?
If you can't get Premium, Mid would be better than Reg.

I think the main reason that you need to burn premium is spark knock.
ie;
The C-14's ignition timing is set up for premium.
,,,Premium burns slower, so the spark occurs sooner.
,,,Reg/mid burns faster, so the spark occurs later.
So/thinking/Guessing; The early spark timing of a C-14 might cause ignition to take place "too early" and the quick ignition of Reg/Mid could hurt the engine. (Mebbe)

I think the engine advances the most during higher RPM's or WOT.
So, "if you don't run the engine hard enough to cause full advance (ie; if your Cruising)" the Reg or Mid could be ok.
If/when you're running it harder is when the need for Prem. comes into play.
I also think the C-14 engine management system can/would detect knock if it occurs and would automatically retard the timing if needed.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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I alternate between 89 and 93 octane at the half-tank point. That is, start with a tank of 93 then at roughly the 120mi point, top up with 89. Repeat with 93 at the next fill-up.

Keeps the average octane rating of fuel in the tank above 90, which is the minimum Kawi spec.
 
Well, I'm going to disagree with Ted here, having seen and rebuilt the timing tables.
While it's true that the higher the rpm the closer you're going to get to peak power ignition advance, the highest advance you'll likely see on a well tuned street vehicle will occur during light cruise situations, which will give high cylinder pressure for the amount of throttle applied and respond with better fuel economy. This is the case regarding the c-14 ECO mode, and also my flash, though not as high as the ECO settings.
Ignition timing isn't the full story, VVT certainly plays into this, and early intake advance builds alot of cylinder pressure; pressure equals heat. Heat equals stressing the detonation resistance of the fuel.
I'm not trying to advertise here, but the difference between my Mountain Runner flash and Mountain Runner Premium is that MR uses stock vvt settings to keep pressures (cyl temps) lower and allow for use of 89 octane. The MRP is for Premium fuel...get it... premium is in the name. This tune uses some hefty valve advance at higher throttle settings, and will give 4-5 #/ft Torque under 5k rpm than MR. Higher cylinder pressures... higher heat... the tradeoff is it needs higher octane.
The difference between let's say a busa and a c-14 is that the busa has longer overlap cams and loses pressure out the exhaust at lower rpms. That mitigates the need for higher octane.
The c-14 is an archaic efi system and doesn't have a knock sensors, so if you want to mess around finding the edges of detonation, you do so at the risk of your engine. I'm personally not willing to do that, or to recommend using lower octane, as I don't know where the thresholds of detonation are in every circumstance. If I won't do it, why would you?
Steve
 
I guess my "I Think" wuz not exactly "Thunk right".
Oh well, I tried. šŸ„“

I wuz trying to answer the question as if Prem was not Available at a gas station.
ie; Assuming you're talking about Mid if Prem is not available?

Ride safe, Ted
 
So the answer to the OP's original question may be that the C14 has no knock sensors, but perhaps the Trophy does...hence why you can use lower grades of gas safely.
 
connie_rider said:
I guess my "I Think" wuz not exactly "Thunk right".
Oh well, I tried. šŸ„“

I wuz trying to answer the question as if Prem was not Available at a gas station.
ie; Assuming you're talking about Mid if Prem is not available?

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
Ted, think about vacuum advance canisters on distributors from "back in the day". That'll get you in the mindset of high ignition timing during light cruise operation.

Steve
 
I knew that and agree. When I posted my note, I wasn't thinking about all the details of when it advances.
Was primarily trying to say; (If for some reason your out of gas, and you can't get premium) cruise / don't hammer on it.
The reason for that is spark knock/detonation cause by the amount of advance/pressure.
And mid would be better than regular.

But, (as rogracer pointed out) I missed IBMJims real question. (OOps šŸ„“)
It was; I'm wondering why Kawasaki specifies premium.
ie; Why can he burn Reg in his Triumph (that has higher compression) but Kawsaki doesn't recommend it in a Connie.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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connie_rider said:
I knew that and agree. When I posted my note, I wasn't thinking about all the details of when it advances.
Was primarily trying to say; (If for some reason your out of gas, and you can't get premium) cruise / don't hammer on it.
The reason for that is spark knock/detonation cause by the amount of advance/pressure.
And mid would be better than regular.

But, (as rogracer pointed out) I missed his real question. (OOps šŸ„“)
It was; I'm wondering why Kawasaki specifies premium.
ie; Why can he burn Reg in his Triumph (that has higher compression) but Kawsaki doesn't recommend it in a Connie.

Ride safe, Ted
Click to expand...
Static compression ratio alone doesn't tell the whole story. Cylinder pressure under running conditions and combustion quality are important factors. Cams with a lot of overlap bleed off pressure at lower speeds with the trade off of better VE (volumetric efficiency) at higher RPMs Combustion chamber shape and ignition can provide for good flame front travel from a central point which resists detonation as well.

Case in point, the 350 I built for my Impala back in the day had around 10.5:1 compression but the cam had a fair amount of overlap and it would run on 87 without pingning even with iron heads. Trade off was a lopey idle and less low speed torque. With a 8" converter that flashed to 4000+ rpm and 4.10 gears, low-end wasn't much of an issue. :)
 
Steve in sunny Fla said:
Well, I'm going to disagree with Ted here, having seen and rebuilt the timing tables.
While it's true that the higher the rpm the closer you're going to get to peak power ignition advance, the highest advance you'll likely see on a well tuned street vehicle will occur during light cruise situations, which will give high cylinder pressure for the amount of throttle applied and respond with better fuel economy. This is the case regarding the c-14 ECO mode, and also my flash, though not as high as the ECO settings.
Ignition timing isn't the full story, VVT certainly plays into this, and early intake advance builds alot of cylinder pressure; pressure equals heat. Heat equals stressing the detonation resistance of the fuel.
I'm not trying to advertise here, but the difference between my Mountain Runner flash and Mountain Runner Premium is that MR uses stock vvt settings to keep pressures (cyl temps) lower and allow for use of 89 octane. The MRP is for Premium fuel...get it... premium is in the name. This tune uses some hefty valve advance at higher throttle settings, and will give 4-5 #/ft Torque under 5k rpm than MR. Higher cylinder pressures... higher heat... the tradeoff is it needs higher octane.
The difference between let's say a busa and a c-14 is that the busa has longer overlap cams and loses pressure out the exhaust at lower rpms. That mitigates the need for higher octane.
The c-14 is an archaic efi system and doesn't have a knock sensors, so if you want to mess around finding the edges of detonation, you do so at the risk of your engine. I'm personally not willing to do that, or to recommend using lower octane, as I don't know where the thresholds of detonation are in every circumstance. If I won't do it, why would you?
Steve
Click to expand...
Spot on Steve...You take a risk running a lower octane fuel on the ZX motors. If IBA Jim is running a stock Connie with no flash, he is safer running a mid-grade gas as opposed to a tuned performance Connie....JMO
 
I "All of us" missed IBM-Jims real question. (OOps šŸ„“)
It was; I'm wondering why Kawasaki specifies premium.
ie; Why can he burn Reg in his Triumph (that has higher compression) but Kawsaki doesn't recommend it in a Connie.

We're all talking about why Premium is required in an engine. Or, why it's required in a C-14 engine.
We're talking about why it's needed in the C-14 and not his Triumph/other high compression engines.

The answer is;
Kawasaki does not recommend Regular because they designed/tuned the engine to run on Premium (and didn't add a knock sensor/other).
{{This is probably because they tuned for peak performance throughout the RPM Range}}.
Triumph/other engines that specify Reg are designed/tuned so that they can run Regular.

Some of us, (including me) have run regular when we couldn't get premium or wanted to save a buck.
The engine will run fine, and you will probably have no issues, but if you run Reg/mid in the engine there is a chance that the engine can harm itself. (because of the design/tuning)

Ride safe, Ted
 
I have to admit I have run many tank fulls of regular in my bike; usually, I use 90 marine gas, but as long as your not doing a track day or on the Dyno, I don't worry about it, just had the valves checked and he said everything was in specs 34,000 miles, I have Steve's original flash If I get his HP flash I'll be a high test guy, ;)
 
Good discussion here. I always run premium unless I'm out west (Colorado, ect.) where they don't offer the 91+ octane. Does anyone add fuel additives like octane booster in these situations? I've heard they don't offer the higher octane as it's not needed due to the higher elevation. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
 
I carry a bottle of octane booster on trips with my Concours 14 and my BMW R1200RT which calls for premium.

At high altitude, 6000 ft plus, the barometric pressure is lower. So it seems the compression chamber pressure is lower as well, eliminating the need for higher octane. However, when I am on a trip I am often covering 400 plus miles per day so while I may be at high altitude when I am fueling up I may end the ride in a valley, a few thousand feet lowers. So I use the octane booster just in case.
 
5000 ft elevation = 18% less air (oxygen)
10,000 ft = 40% less air

Remember the tuning is done on an air / fuel ratio , and at altitude the less air you have the lower the cylinder pressures are. Lower cylinder pressure = less heat, = lowered possibilities for detonation and reduced power output. This is why high elevations don't need high octane.

Steve
 
Steve, do you think it would be possible to use the VVT settings to make 87 viable in a pinch? Curious how much you can alter the cam timing, or more directly, how much control you have over cylinder pressure with the VVT.

Unless that's trade secrets.
 
justin.collins3365 said:
Good discussion here. I always run premium unless I'm out west (Colorado, ect.) where they don't offer the 91+ octane. Does anyone add fuel additives like octane booster in these situations? I've heard they don't offer the higher octane as it's not needed due to the higher elevation. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
Click to expand...
Utah / Colorado I had no issues finding high octane fuel. 11 days 5,600 miles, no probs. Doesnā€™t answer question on octane booster I know.

Wayne, Carol & Blue
 
rogracer said:
So the answer to the OP's original question may be that the C14 has no knock sensors, but perhaps the Trophy does...hence why you can use lower grades of gas safely.
Click to expand...
No knock sensors on the Trophy - sorry for the late reply.

I'm wondering if sometimes premium gas is specified because the manufacturer doesn't want the owner to use gas that conatins ethanol. i have seen gas pumps that say "contains no ethanol" next to the premium button.

Triumph says all the fuel lines and vent hoses should be replaced every 5 years, regardless of mileage. I don't know of any other manufacturer that requires that.
 
justin.collins3365 said:
Good discussion here. I always run premium unless I'm out west (Colorado, ect.) where they don't offer the 91+ octane. Does anyone add fuel additives like octane booster in these situations? I've heard they don't offer the higher octane as it's not needed due to the higher elevation. Not sure if there is any truth to this.
Click to expand...
I live in Colorado, we have 91 octane everywhere.
 
I have a 2009 C14 that I acquired in July, 2021. Since then I've ridden it for 13,000 miles, and I just hit 63,000 total. I'm in Maryland. At first I used premium gas, either 91 or 93; however, after trying 89 octane fuel, the bike runs just fine, with no knocking whatsoever. Previous owner, a good friend of mine, had it flashed many years ago. I intend to continue filling up with 89 fuel in the foreseeable future.
 
I am a new C14 owner (2022 picked up last Thursday) and was surprised to see this calling for 90 octane. The discussion here makes sense. I drive an Audi and have to put premium in that so used to the prices. What are the opinions of using an octane booster product like this.
 
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IBAJIM said:
No knock sensors on the Trophy - sorry for the late reply.

I'm wondering if sometimes premium gas is specified because the manufacturer doesn't want on the owner to use gas that conatins ethanol. i have seen gas pumps that say "contains no ethanol" next to the premium button.

Triumph says all the fuel lines and vent hoses should be replaced every 5 years, regardless of mileage. I don't know of any other manufacturer that requires that.
Click to expand...
Ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating.
 
IBAJIM said:
No knock sensors on the Trophy - sorry for the late reply.

I'm wondering if sometimes premium gas is specified because the manufacturer doesn't want the owner to use gas that conatins ethanol. i have seen gas pumps that say "contains no ethanol" next to the premium button.

Triumph says all the fuel lines and vent hoses should be replaced every 5 years, regardless of mileage. I don't know of any other manufacturer that requires that.
Click to expand...
My other motorcycle is a 1998 Triumph Sprint Sport. I definitely had to replace all the fuel lines after 5 years. Was not fun looking down and seeing gas running down the lines. I had biritsh sports cars too and always had to check the runner bits. the brits seem to like using rapidly deteriorating rubber.
 
dzywicki9209 said:
I am a new C14 owner (2022 picked up last Thursday) and was surprised to see this calling for 90 octane. The discussion here makes sense. I drive an Audi and have to put premium in that so used to the prices What are the opinions of using an octane booster product like this.
Click to expand...
I guess you have not heard that there is a WAR going on
 
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Read an article in Car and Driver years ago about the history of TEL (lead) in gasoline. Ethanol was the front runner as an additive in fuel to raise compression but GM and standard oil couldn't patent it, and it cost more than TEL. Jack Roush was a big fan of ethanol for some reason too....may owned a lot of corn šŸ˜. Ill see if I can find the article online..
Why it may not being used as an octane booster these days, it does effect fuel burn...which effects the octane rating. Sunocos 's Green E15 has an octane rating of 98.

Murph

Found it

www.caranddriver.com

How Leaded Gas Came to Be and Why We Donā€™t Miss It

In passenger vehicles, anyway . . . itā€™s still sold in the U.S. for use in off-road vehicles, farm equipment, and more.
www.caranddriver.com www.caranddriver.com
 
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Steve in sunny Fla said:
Ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating.
Click to expand...
There you go again with bad information.
You should do some basic research before you post if you don't know the answer.

Ivan

Ethanol and Octane For Beginners

Ethanol is often talked about as a high-octane fuel. But not everyone has a clear understanding of octane and how it affects the performance of their cars. So let's start right at the beginning : what is octane? The official definition of octane is: the measure of a fuel's ability to resist...
mnbiofuels.org mnbiofuels.org
 
IBAJIM said:
I'm wondering if sometimes premium gas is specified because the manufacturer doesn't want the owner to use gas that conatins ethanol. i have seen gas pumps that say "contains no ethanol" next to the premium button.
Click to expand...
Let me address this with the longer answer i was trying to avoid typing in a phone.

I stated that ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating, and in the context of responding to this quote is correct.

Yes, Ethanol has it's own octane rating. Yes it can be used to raise the octane rating of fuel at the pump.

But so can many other additives, and that goes to the answer of this particular quote.

In other words, the OP is suggesting that a manufacturer may not want ethanol used, and is suggesting non - ethanol premium as the manufacturers go-to fuel. If that were the case, the manufacturer would have specified "no ethanol"... not tie it to a particular pump fuel rating.

In fact, when considering the responses that followed mine, the posters specifically tied high octane premium fuel to ethanol content... the exact opposite of what IBAJIM was suggesting

Now in a larger picture, i tell folks that ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating because many folks will seek out non ethanol fuel for thier "babies" and want to run lower octane fuel to save $$$. They don't understand the need for detonation resistance. We've seen that in this thread. In this manner, ethanol and octane have nothing to do with each other.

And please remember I'm dealing with older fuel systems (carbs) on a daily basis, so my thoughts aren't limited to fuel systems designed to tolerate the corrosive effects of ethanol like the c14.

So yeah, can ethanol be used to raise the octane value of fuel at the pump? Yes. Does this address the concerns of folks who don't want to run ethanol particularly on older fuel systems? NO. In that manner, ethanol and octane have nothing to do with each other. I stand by my original statement, and realize the confusion it may cause based on it's brevity.
 
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I just "heard" ya say ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating.. ;)

...which is wrong.....
Now in a larger picture, i tell folks that ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating because many folks will seek out non ethanol fuel for thier "babies" and want to run lower octane fuel to save $$$.
Click to expand...
I run non ethanol fuel in a O-320, Theres only two stations that have it here in town, and it cost more a gallon than premium.

I don't think I've ever seen "Rec" fuel as its called here , priced lower than fuel containing ethanol.

anyway...

Did you read the CD article on leaded gasoline?

Murph
 
Murph said:
I just "heard" ya say ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating.. ;)

...which is wrong.....

I run non ethanol fuel in a O-320, Theres only two stations that have it here in town, and it cost more a gallon than premium.

I don't think I've ever seen "Rec" fuel as its called here , priced lower than fuel containing ethanol.

anyway...

Did you read the CD article on leaded gasoline?

Murph
Click to expand...
I have read it. No surprise that ethanol was ignored because there was no money to be made . Reminds me of todayā€™s pharmaceutical companies.
 
Murph said:
I just "heard" ya say ethanol has nothing to do with octane rating.. ;)

...which is wrong.....

I run non ethanol fuel in a O-320, Theres only two stations that have it here in town, and it cost more a gallon than premium.

I don't think I've ever seen "Rec" fuel as its called here , priced lower than fuel containing ethanol.

anyway...

Did you read the CD article on leaded gasoline?

Murph
Click to expand...
In my Area, REC Fuel is abundant in almost every off-brand or Mom and Pop station within fifty miles of the lake usually, prices are 50 to 80 cents higher compared to E10 89 or 93. My post are usually long cause due to being passionate about subjects that I have been involved with hands-on testing!

Years ago knowing what I know about Gasoline supplies we started testing Rec fuel, Marine and Lawn equipment, and ATVs are how it's marketed.
Sent a sample to Blackstone and besides all the impurities the report had there were Zero detergents.
When you Buy Shells ultra or BP super duper or Sunoco Premium all of that is considered Tier 1 Gasoline. All gasoline delivered to fuel stations starts from the same holding tank.

The driver of the Tanker truck adds the (Detergents) package for the Tier 1 supplier along with the ethanol while filling up his tanker before delivery.
Rec Gasoline comes in 87 or 90 Base stock gasoline with no Detergents, Most times the Rec 90 is stored at your local gas station stand-alone pump with the oldest tank usually the one that E10 will damage further.

What I,m trying to say is running REC in a modern fuel Injected bike with no detergents one can only imagine the deposits forming on your Internals, Now if you add a small number of let's say Red-Line or Techron is a detergent created by Chevron and usually the chemical many off-brand petro suppliers add in various amounts then alright but your cost just went up even higher by six dollars a tankful!

I understand the long-term effects E10 does on older cars and Bikes, Years ago it attacked the rubber, but today all your quality rebuild kits are Nitrile the problem you still have is carburetors are typically made from alloys more susceptible to corrosion zinc, aluminum, and brass and leaving E10 inside destroys it.

Many years ago we were Producing Needles and emulsion tubes along with jets in stainless, in fact still have a handful of GSXR 1100 stainless parts but although those parts were safe the carb body itself turned to powder! So if you are the type of person that still has old bikes like me just drain it when you store it away.
 
CDA9...
Such knowledge!! Thanks for sharing...I use a 1 to 3 mix of LL100 to REC 87 on the O-320... Many years ago when I was doing some carb work, and buying eBay carbs, I was really surprised at the internal condition of them based on what part of the country they came from. Different fuel blends across the country.
 
The easy answer for the average owner is to stick with top tier stations. That way thereā€™s A robust cleaning package regardless of octane grade. As long as youā€™re changing your fuel regularly ( driving / riding) the ethanol will be a non-issue.
 
Interesting discussion. Lots of things come to mind. Here is one.
Questioning why people prefer to run Non-Alcohol fuel. (For discussion)

Many say they prefer Non-Alcohol because it runs better/faster.
I think; The effect that people claim from using Non Alcohol is more Placebo than fact..

I think;
1) Gasoline has "only" slightly more BTU's of heat/energy than Alcohol.
2) (Comparing Ethanol vs Ethanol and Non-Alcohol vs Non-Alcohol) there is no BTU advantage when going from Regular to Premium Fuel.
ie; Premium makes no more power than regular.
3) If a person had Ethanol, changed to Non-Alcohol (and changed nothing else) the only difference in power would be because of the slight BTU increase of the Non-Alcohol, and that difference would be "very" slight.

NOTE: I agree that the Non-Alcohol is better for the fuel system. (Primarily because of corrosion) Not questioning that.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I'm trying to learn, and I may be way off base. Please feel free to discuss/correct errors in my thoughts.
 
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www.toptiergas.com

Fuel Stations - TOP TIERā„¢

TOP TIERā„¢ Licensed Brands prominently display the TOP TIERā„¢ logo on the pump, pump handle, canopy or in a station window.
www.toptiergas.com www.toptiergas.com

I noticed Top Tier is trademarked...have to pay a fee to say your top tiered? On top of having the extra stuff n your base gasoline.

Murph
 
Murph said:
www.toptiergas.com

Fuel Stations - TOP TIERā„¢

TOP TIERā„¢ Licensed Brands prominently display the TOP TIERā„¢ logo on the pump, pump handle, canopy or in a station window.
www.toptiergas.com www.toptiergas.com

I noticed Top Tier is trademarked...have to pay a fee to say your top tiered? On top of having the extra stuff n your base gasoline.

Murph
Click to expand...
Yes, and all the grades offered have to satisfy top tier designation. For those interested top tier seems to be the outgrowth of the BMW unlimited mileage fuel tests used in the 60ā€™s so BMW could advise their customers as to quality fuels BMW recommended.
 
Im sorry I was a bit vague on my intent...Tier One is a TM and fuels claiming to be tier one I would guess have to buy a license to call themselves tier one...they could meet the same requirements but could not legally call themselves tier one fuels.

Little follow up this afternoon

Gasoline Performance Standard

www.toptiergas.com www.toptiergas.com

Also downloaded The top tier gasoline Performance Standard 4 page booklet referenced

I may be missing something, but so far everything I've read has to do with combustion chamber cleaning , nothing about fuel system cleaning. Having dealt with endless alphanumeric quality insurance programs over the years ...well...moving on.. I was looking how often your tier one gas station actually had its fuel tested to see if it was in compliance to what ever the standards are.

Vehicle and equipment manufacturers write and enforce the standards
Click to expand...
That was on the bottom of their homepage.
I'd like to hear how the enforcement is handled.

May be the best thing that ever came to the internal combustion world... With maybe just a hint of marketing thrown in?

Murph
The cynic :(
 
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Years ago knowing what I know about Gasoline supplies we started testing Rec fuel, Marine and Lawn equipment, and ATVs are how it's marketed.
Sent a sample to Blackstone and besides all the impurities the report had there were Zero detergents.
Click to expand...

I found that a bit disturbing to say the least, not sure how many years ago that was. I reached out to Marathons Public Relations department ( the only department I could actually contact) and asked ( emailed) them did their REC fuel have detergents ? I received a one sentence response this morning.

Good morning Gary:

Yes, all gasolines will contain IVD (detergency) additive per EPA requirements.
Click to expand...

I would have no trouble believing a private lab didn't find any
in the fuel though. I followed up this morning with the question does their REC fuel meet Tier One (TM) specifications. We will see if I get a response on that.

I think what I have learned, is my believe in what the advertised detergents are for ( keeping the fuel system clean)..MAY be a benefit of them, but the real purpose is to improve fuel burn, and in doing so keeping build up out of the combustion chamber.

There are 2 specs I am looking for in gasoline right now, and ole Ted may be able to provide them.

First is the amount of solids per liter of fuel , and the second is maximum particle size .

I'm curious if "standard" pump fuel and Tier One have the same specs .



Cloak, you racing this weekend? Thought about getting an H2?

BEST!

Murph
 
Yes going racing, Trailer is packed and ready to head out!

To respond to Marathon that is correct as per EPA
All gasoline sold in the United States is required by the EPA to have a minimum level of fuel additive to prevent fuel injector clogging.

AMAL-IVD-2009 - Strictly a Gasoline Detergent Additive for "Intake Valve Deposit Clean Up & Keep Clean Performance"

EPA Registered with L.A.C. Dosage of 36ptb (0.1211 gallons per 1000 gallons)

Treat at 1:12670 (minimum) or 1:5243 (deterency)

The major differences in gasoline result from the fuel additive packages that go beyond the minimums established and the degree of quality control measures that some marketers have put in place to ensure a consistently high-quality product.

Reading about REC-90
REC-90 is an ethanol-free, 90 octane unleaded gasoline blend designed for use in recreational/marine engines which can be damaged by the ethanol found in other gasoline blends. It is also usable in some aviation engines and automotive engines, though it has not been thoroughly tested for cars and trucks.

What bolded convinces me that using it un-treated even if it does in fact have the Min it's not good enough! Doubt you will find it to ever be a Tier 1 High detergent Gasoline Unless Yard Pro now spec top Tier for their Mowers šŸ˜‚

Murph, in my state REC fuel is sold at a separate pump with labels usually stating this is not a xxx brand product.

Also have seen some stations offering E0 87 to the left of the pump that offers E10 87, 89, 93 That is not REC gasoline and is treated as the brands Top Tier.

Possible Rec stays around longer and Detergents fall out!

H2 makes a terrible Drag Bike, Despite what y-tube claims!

later jeff šŸ˜Š
 
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More good stuff..

Yard Pro now spec top Tier for their Mowers šŸ˜‚
Click to expand...


L.. true, I was thinking more Mercury Marine ..

under 10 and over 150 on the cycle world test..I think.

Have fun and don't break nothin'..on the bike or you

Get an H2 and I'll sponsor to the tune of a set of bar risers...L.. aftr all, it is now Kawasaki's SportTouring bike:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Murph
 
Murph said:
More good stuff..




L.. true, I was thinking more Mercury Marine ..

under 10 and over 150 on the cycle world test..I think.

Have fun and don't break nothin'..on the bike or you

Get an H2 and I'll sponsor to the tune of a set of bar risers...L.. aftr all, it is now Kawasaki's SportTouring bike:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Murph
Click to expand...
Makes sense when you get past an outboard on a flat bottom 12 footer, what do marinaā€™s sell. I fill up with E10 and never had an issue!
Fast Bikes ran a non prepped H2 to 10:47 1/4 mile! Uncorrected times.

Fellow racer Iā€™m friends with runs a fully prepared H2 R, with a long swing arm and slick, with engine work to a best 8:27 !

Not having to drive the motor home so sitting here eating Cheerios writing to youšŸ˜Š

Throw in some crash bars and you got a rider
 
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Not having to drive the motor home so sitting here eating Cheerios writing to youšŸ˜Š
Click to expand...

Life, is good my friend!! I'm hacking out orders and getting ready to a have Heineken 0 break.

Hey that 1/4 ET I gave you the other day I beat by 12s this morning....same guy asked me the same question.. I wasnt as quick to answer today..


Murph
 
Murph said:
Life, is good my friend!! I'm hacking out orders and getting ready to a have Heineken 0 break.

Hey that 1/4 ET I gave you the other day I beat by 12s this morning....same guy asked me the same question.. I wasnt as quick to answer today..


Murph
Click to expand...
Agreed enjoy!
 
I also seem to recall that Ted was involved in this same type of testing when he worked for Shell.

Yes, I did Fuels (and other) testing while at Shell. Being in that environment I learned a lot. But I was an Indian, not a Chief so I gathered data and the Chief's made the decisions.
Bottom line: I can't answer most of the questions I'm seeing here and I'm too lazy to search all the technical Reports.
I can tell you some about the testing.

Each year we tested new Additives to determine what additive was the best available for that year.
In search of the best, we all kinds of testing during that time.
Many of those Tests were very interesting to do, but some were so routine that they became boring.
Luckily, I was involved in more than just doing the testing. I was involved in developing ways to conduct the tests. <Fun-Fun-Fun>

During that time, I also did some Performance based tests, Valve Sticking Tests, Emissions tests, RVP Testing (Reid Vapor Pressure), and other tests.
NOTE: All the Oil Companies have to change the RVP each year because of temperature changes. (Winter and Summer Blends)
I was involved in offsite testing when we did the RVP Tests. We traveled to different areas to determine the pressure that would be the best in cold or hot conditions.

At home many of the Tests I did were conducted on Dynamometers. The Dyno's I operated were primarily Chassis Dyno's that were used for Fuel additive tests or mileage accumulation. (NOT Performance tuning) I operated about 10-15 Dyno's at the time.

Most of the (Additive) testing we did was targeted at "accumulation and removal" of deposits "on the Intake valves".
We also measured deposits in the combustion chamber, tested Injector flows, did drivability studies, and conducted Emissions tests.
But the main factor in determining the best additive package was valve Deposits.

NOTE: The EPA has now raised the standards for additives to the point that almost no valve deposits are allowed any more.
ie; The Branx X Companies fuel (including Rec. Fuel) is now required to burn so clean that it's very difficult for Top Tier Companies to improve over the norm.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I was not involved in Octane rating, so I'm trying to learn a bit from this discussion.
 
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connie_rider said:
I also seem to recall that Ted was involved in this same type of testing when he worked for Shell.

Yes, I did Fuels (and other) testing while at Shell. Being in that environment I learned a lot. But I was an Indian, not a Chief so I gathered data and the Chief's made the decisions. Bottom line: I can't answer most of the questions I'm seeing here and too lazy to search all the technical Reports. I can tell you some about the testing.

Each year Shell tested new Additives to determine what additive was the best available for that year.
In search of the best, we all kinds of testing during that time.
Many of those Tests were very interesting to do, but some were so routine that they became boring.
Luckily, I was involved in more than just doing the testing. I was involved in developing ways to conduct the tests. <Fun-Fun-Fun>

During that time, I also did some Performance based additive tests, Valve Sticking Tests, Emissions tests, and RVP Testing (Reid Vapor Pressure) tests. NOTE: All the Oil Companies have to change the RVP each year because of temperature changes. (Winter and Summer Blends)
Many of the Tests I did were done on Dynamometers. The Dyno's I operated were primarily Chassis Dyno's that were used for Fuel additive tests or mileage accumulation. (NOT Performance tuning) I operated about 10-15 Dyno's at the time.

Most of the (Additive) testing we did was targeted at accumulation and removal of deposits "on the Intake valves".
We also measured deposits in the combustion chamber, tested Injector flows, did drivability studies, and conducted Emissions tests.
But the main factor in determining the best additive package was valve Deposits.

NOTE: The EPA has now raised the standards for additives to the point that almost no valve deposits are allowed any more in any fuel.
ie; The Branx X Companies fuel (including ec Fuel) is now required to burn so clean that it's very difficult for a Top Tier Companies to improve over the norm.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I was not involved in Octane rating, so I'm trying to learn a bit from this discussion.
Click to expand...
"NOTE: The EPA has now raised the standards for additives to the point that almost no valve deposits are allowed anymore in any fuel.
ie; The Branx X Companies fuel (including ec Fuel) is now required to burn so clean that it's very difficult for a Top Tier Companies to improve over the norm."

Ted That is some good information!

The tests using REC 90 were conducted years ago when E5/E10 were being introduced in my home state!
And it appears that Murph and Ted's research is showing things are changing in all fuels.

Ted, One way to view this is any name-brand fuel is supposed to be on Par with Top Tier as far as detergents. This is getting interesting cause Shell is marketing for their Ultra is

"Shell V-Power NiTRO+ Premium Gasoline is engineered with four levels of defense against gunk, corrosion, wear, and friction to help keep your engine running like new.* This patented formula is our best, most advanced fuel ever. Itā€™s no wonder that BMW M recommends Shell V-Power NiTRO+ and that itā€™s been the official fuel of Car and Driver and Road & Track magazines for more than ten years."

What sets Shell apart from Waka Wawa Gas? Nothing anymore!
 
Back when I was doing fuels testing, we tested various additives to find something that would improve performance.
Some worked, but most were cost prohibitive. This type of testing was some of my fun things we did.
There were some slight improvement's from adding certain chemicals and the advertisement you posted reflects that.
ie; Note that it does not say "how much" better it is, just better. "That's all the Advertising folks need, is "some" improvement.

NOTE: I am not saying that Shell is not better. They do make quality fuels. And tests prove that there are improvements' they can use in advertising their fuels.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Please continue to buy Shell Fuels.
(Every penny you spend contributes to "My retirement"). šŸ˜‡
 
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We know Gasoline comes from a handful of refineries, it's piped and then trucked to a service station with big players like shell using the same base product as Exxon and what sets them apart is the additives.

My own personal motorcycles and cars get Shell the package they add works, and many times looking past the throttle bodies the intake tract and valves are clean, taken enough heads off to always find clean combustion chambers and piston crowns, and ring lands so it really works!

What I was taken back about is the EPA to push for enough cleaning additives to bring all fuel to Top Tier or beyond, so Shell has to go on moving forward would be additives to help combat Corrosion, Wear
 
I have many brands available in my area and i don't see any difference in power on my dyno between any of them.

My Mazda seems to go through the Exxon faster than the other brands although I haven't officially clocked it just running the same route back and forth to work.

Walmart premium
Citgo premium
Exxon premium
Sunoco premium
Gulf premium
BP premium

My preference is generally to stay away from REC fuel because it doesn't sell in the same volume (sits in the local vat for a lot longer than E10 does) and I've smelled it like stale right from the pump at times. It also runs slightly richer than E10.

In my carbureted bikes, I've never had a problem with corrosion from E10, but they develop waxy brown deposits much faster than non ethanol if you just let them sit for months at a time. I'm sure outdoor storage with high humidity would cause some corrosion issues.
There are enzyme fuel treatments like Startron that make E10 and carbs have no issues with occasional use.
 
For clarity. The Top Teir guys (Shell/Chevron/etc) are still better than Brand X. But the difference is not as great as it used to be.

In addition to EPA requirements, the auto manufacturers have improved their systems.
ie; The vehicles don't build up deposits like they used to because their fuel systems, emissions systems, and engines are improved too.
All of this is because Uncle Sugar is requiring lower and Lower Emissions.

We used to buy Brand X Fuels for our tests.
We then used the Brand X Fuels to develop deposits and "compared those deposits" with the deposits from our Test Fuels.
In other tests, we ran the vehicles until the Brand X deposits were in place> After we knew they were in place, we changed the Fuel from Brand X to Test Fuels and ran the vehicles that way. (To determine how well the Test Fuels removed the deposits.)
As the years went by, the Brand X Fuels got better and better (which made testing more difficult) and (in order to conduct tests) we had to sometimes intentionally blend fuels that would develop deposits.

NOTE:
I am not giving away proprietary information here. I did a lot of the tests in conjunction with other Oil Companies, and "All" the Oil Companies are doing similar tests. I just mention Shell as that is where I gained my knowledge.
Additionally; I've been out of Fuel testing for over 20 years. I'm sure that things have changed.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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The interesting thing is, its been the EPA forcing companies to make a better product...it aint like they did cause they wanted to.


Murph
 
Ivan.....my STC requires non- ethonal fuelšŸ˜‰..single up draft carb, kinda like your grand dads tractor had, two mags....like the one the tractor had, and compression ratio of about 7.5 to 1. 150HP at 2700rpm..
 
Ivan_ipp said:
I have many brands available in my area and i don't see any difference in power on my dyno between any of them.

My Mazda seems to go through the Exxon faster than the other brands although I haven't officially clocked it just running the same route back and forth to work.

Walmart premium
Citgo premium
Exxon premium
Sunoco premium
Gulf premium
BP premium

My preference is generally to stay away from REC fuel because it doesn't sell in the same volume (sits in the local vat for a lot longer than E10 does) and I've smelled it like stale right from the pump at times. It also runs slightly richer than E10.

In my carbureted bikes, I've never had a problem with corrosion from E10, but they develop waxy brown deposits much faster than non ethanol if you just let them sit for months at a time. I'm sure outdoor storage with high humidity would cause some corrosion issues.
There are enzyme fuel treatments like Startron that make E10 and carbs have no issues with occasional use.
Click to expand...
Different brands of non-stale pump gas your correct there is no way one would make more power than the other, It's all the same gasoline! Just different additives. lately, the conversations and the reading and research have me starting to question even proprietary blends of additives for cleaning as being marketing Hype.

Always Pump gas E10 and usually from a high-volume station in my case here it's shell or Mobil, Tuned correctly for E10 then using Pure gasoline screws the Stoichiometric A/F Ratio up, and you end up rich and losing a fraction of power!

Tune for different oxygenated race gasoline like MR12 the lowest oxygen content of 8.73% and see upwards of 4 to 6 horsepower depending on the bike and tuner. Got turned on to E10 years ago and see it as positive and looking forward to tuning for E15 once it's available here.

Something you can only do on a street bike if you have multiple Modes, What I mean by that - Is performance 1 - Performance 2 - Rain mode, doing it on a nonswitchable maps engine runs not so good on pump gas after tuned for MR12

Ivan, would you tune for E85 using the Eco mode and modify that map since you have the software to make those changes?
You can call it ECO Boost, Have you done any E85 testing Yet?
 
I'm not a big race fuel guy because it doesn't pertain to what I spend most of my time doing, although, I did make a power commander map for my son's bike a long time ago for E85 with my old gas tester.
I'm sure that I could do a nice job with it in the ECU, but it doesn't really interest me due to the amount of work involved to make everything up to my standards šŸ˜‚

A power commander map would work just fine for the occasional use that it would get... (mostly for racing people) and could be made in a few hours.
 

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Cloakanddaggeragent9 said:
Always Pump gas E10 and usually from a high-volume station in my case here it's shell or Mobil, Tuned correctly for E10 then using Pure gasoline screws the Stoichiometric A/F Ratio up, and you end up rich and losing a fraction of power!
Click to expand...

Can you explain why changing to fuel without Methanol in it would be richer?
Not arguing. Trying to understand.

I think an alcohol engine requires more fuel than a gasoline engine to produce the same power because of more BTU's in the Gasoline vs Methanol.
ie; As I recall alcohol engines have bigger Jetts in a carb. and/or (mebbe) longer pulse width in the injectors.

So, I'll guess that when you said Tuned Correctly for E-10, you're injecting more Ethanol fuel than if it were pure gas and spark/cam timing is changed as needed?

If so, it would seem to be the correct effect would be leaner (when changing from alcohol to pure gas).

Mebbe I can understand if I ask;
If tuned correctly for Pure gasoline and then change to E-10 gasoline, what E-10 do to the Stoichiometric A/F Ratio, would it end up rich or lean, and would it gain or loose a fraction of power!

Sorry. Bad question. (Ignore it)

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Just did some reading and think I better understand why you want the alcohol. (Octane/cooling/etc)
But that article mentioned there were less BTU's and so it required more fuel.
 
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Way back when ....when the fuel in New York had pure gas in the summer, and ethanol added in the winter (or maybe vice versa... this is more than 20 years ago... can't remember)

The difference on my old gas tester was 4.8% CO for a particular bike at wide open throttle with pure gas and was 4.5% CO with 10% ethanol.

Converting this difference to AFR isn't very simple because you're measuring the residual rather than the actual mix and will be different depending on combustion chamber design and trapping efficiency šŸ˜Š
 
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Steve in sunny Fla said:
The easy answer for the average owner is to stick with top tier stations. That way thereā€™s A robust cleaning package regardless of octane grade. As long as youā€™re changing your fuel regularly ( driving / riding) the ethanol will be a non-issue.
Click to expand...
Not too many years ago the owners manual in a new car I bought ( can't remember exactly when / which car model ) specificed using a Top Tier rated gas. At that time there were only about 4 brands that were Top Tier Rated.

Now just about every gas is Top Tier rated : Top Tier Brands

If a gas is Top Tier rated, it's suppose to have the Top Tier sticker on the pump, biut I don't see that much.
 
Ivan has a good point. Back when I was doing it, we used the older gas analyzers and they were a PITA.
I'd also forgotten that (to assure accuracy) we used to use only 1 specific fuel when doing Emissions studies.
ie; I agree with Ivan. (Please don't tell him I sed that)

I originally asked the question wrong in post #62. My OOPs again.
I was trying to understand C&Ds statement of richness change when using pure gas.
I wondered why it would change, and does pure gas require different tuning than E-10.

I assume the gas analyzer reads the burnt gasses (Lamda) and calculates the AFR based on "One" specific/known fuel.
ie; It has 1 known fuel in the calculation.
So, changing the chemical makeup of the fuel in the tank (from 10% methanol to pure gas) would affect the AFR Calculation.
(Makes it appear richer than E-10)
When the throttle opens during accels, I know that the mixture is richened. (I'm certain that happens in the C-14)
What C&D's saying is (at that time) Pure gas appears to become richer than the E-10.

Guessing that any fuel could be tweaked/improved by a special tune.
* A special tune is not necessary for normal E-10 to Pure Gas running.
** Racing where every tenth counts, a special tune would be useful if switching from E-10 to Pure Gas or other special blends.

Ride safe, Ted

Geez it's hard to put words to what I'm thinking. šŸ˜µā€šŸ’«
 
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If a gas is Top Tier rated, it's suppose to have the Top Tier sticker on the pump, biut I don't see that much.
Click to expand...

From what I think I saw ( thats how my lawer told me to start statements :sneaky: ) Part of the "franchise" was it should be posted, and also..all gas sold by the station should be tier one....so if they are selling REC fuel..

Murph
 
Ivan_ipp said:
Way back when ....when the fuel in New York had pure gas in the summer, and ethanol added in the winter (or maybe vice versa... this is more than 20 years ago... can't remember)

The difference on my old gas tester was 4.8% CO for a particular bike at wide open throttle with pure gas and was 4.5% CO with 10% ethanol.

Converting this difference to AFR isn't very simple because you're measuring the residual rather than the actual mix and will be different depending on combustion chamber design and trapping efficiency šŸ˜Š
Click to expand...

Uneccessarily complicated. Just use the stoich value of 10% ethanol gas . Correct your wideband AFR's to reflect, and adjust your values for cruising vs power from there. You do use widebands, don't you, or still using old style gas analyzers?

Steve
 
Ivan_ipp said:
The difference on my old gas tester was 4.8% CO for a particular bike at wide open throttle with pure gas and was 4.5% CO with 10% ethanol.
Click to expand...
So how were you able to correct for ram air, as you can't strap a 4 gas analyzer to the bike and run WOT?

Steve
 
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Here is a filter that we use in our shop when we run out of pump fuel, Usually stick it over the gas nozzle and then insert it into the gas can.
Different methods can be applied by keeping it in a small bag in your saddle bag or rack and using it during re-fuels during trips.

www.guglatech.com

Fuel Filter WORKSHOP- for all kind of fuels - A02006-00

Guglatech Fuel Filter UNIVERSAL is a must companion for any trip. If you you cannot have a specific filter for your bike, this filter is your solution.
www.guglatech.com www.guglatech.com

1665604848653.png


BODY02-6223.jpg
 
....well... I really can't go there :sneaky:

While I never would condone illegal acts here on this forum or in my personal life,,, but, from what I have .....ummm read...I don't think they are all boring..

"Why no officer I have no idea how fast I was going....."

Murph
 
Murph said:
....well... I really can't go there :sneaky:

While I never would condone illegal acts here on this forum or in my personal life,,, but, from what I have .....ummm read...I don't think they are all boring..

"Why no officer I have no idea how fast I was going....."

Murph
Click to expand...
LMAO šŸ¤£

This one worked for me a few weeks ago!
On my way to the Liquor store, pull away hard from the light with the front wheel of my street Gide a 1 1/2 off the ground.
Our finest traveling the opposite direction seen his opportunity and pulled a u turn and lit me up.

Had an 1/8 of a mile lead so pulled over, pulled my lid, hands on the tank. He finally pulled up, walked over and said Sir do you know why I pulled you over?

Jeff: responds cause I let you!

Officer : smirks and then ask where are you going in such haste.

Jeff: Trying to get to the ABC package store before it closes!

Officer: Laughing and says get the Guck outta here, gets in his Tahoe does a donut and disappears.

Figure next time not going to push my luck and try that! šŸ˜‚
 
"I am a new C14 owner (2022 picked up last Thursday) and was surprised to see this calling for 90 octane. The discussion here makes sense. I drive an Audi and have to put premium in that so used to the prices "

You don't see the post I was replying to?

The whole world is getting raped in fuel price increases because of the war, get It now?

It's not just us, he injected politics, into his reply.
 
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