Newbie question

[JackFunTeach]

Howdie all, My name is Jack. I'm a new 95 concours owner, 32k miles. I just had the carbs synced and put in Amsoil Synthetic. Engine runs great. Question if I may ask: Turbulance wind is throwing my bike (rear kinda starts fish talling) around at high speed. 65 and up. The rear wheel does not hold the line. I just put on new Avon Avaro sport tires on. Is this a common issue? I'd like the bike to hold true at 80 if I occasionally want to let her go on long stretches. I tried taking off the hard saddle bags. It had some improvement, but still wiggling the back on on cross winds. This is bumming me out. Any thoughts? Do I need to let the tire flatten out a bit? Jack

 

[colinp386]

Hi Jack Welcome to COG, what your experiencing is not correct that's for sure. The Connie when correctly setup is pretty stable. Others will have more experience than me, but I would make sure your rear shock has enough air in it for your weight, and the try different damper settings. You will find them under the RHS side cover. Check the pressure with an accurate gauge, and use a cycle pump not a compressed air line to add air else you can blow the seals. While your at it check the front shock settings too. If your a full COG member you can download our tech-tips compendium "Chalkdust" from the Library that has a plethora of great info on the C10. If the rear suspension links have not been serviced correctly you may find they have some play in them that may cause this. Last but not least remove the air scoops on the lowers as they can affect handling with semi's passing close by or side-winds. Best of luck finding the cure, its out there some where Colin Prior Cogmos Committee Chairman Lake Forest Park WA COG#7767

 

[cmoore]

Hi Jack, welcome to the circus. I run the Avons with no problems. I think they are about as good as you can get for the Concours. I would check the front suspension closely. The stock springs are weak. I experienced quite a bit of wiggle out on the interstate with the stockers. Once I upgraded to the Sonic 1.1's the bike was rock steady. As already discussed check the rear shock for proper settings and to make sure it is functioning properly. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. '02 Connie COG # 6662 Dallas, Tx

 

[S Smith]

Check that the rear shock is setup properly (air pressure & rebound) When I have the Givi E52 top case on I notice more movement in the rear. Some have said that certain aftermarket (ie larger) windscreens can also have a negative effect. -- Steve Smith, #3184 COG Northeast Area Director (somewhere in south central CT) If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

 

[Brett0769]

I get pushed around a bit in the wind, but that's mostly dirty air from big trucks. It amazes me that the dirty air trail is so long behind them. Of course, not as long as the 'air' trail behind a truck carrying hogs, I know when one of them is ahead of me from 2 miles or more. :-/ I got my new Azaro on the rear and it felt I was being noticeably pushed around immediately after I got it because it is so grippy and I was changing from a worn out Metzeler ME880, that was, needless to say, hard and slick to start with, much less after 15K+ miles. The feeling went away after about a week though. Check out your rear suspension and make sure you've preloaded the front springs equally and suitably for your weight, check air in the rear shock (no compressor, hand pump or bottle only) adjust to appropriate damping and you should notice marked improvement. It's also common practice for people to run the air in their tires a little high to prevent cupping, lots of suggestions on that here too.

 

[2linby]

Hi-Jack! (I always wanted to say that!) AS the others stated this is not a usual issue. so my advice is to check the cheap things first. 1. Tire pressures? (both) 2. Tires balanced? (both) 3. Tires in good shape? 4. Wheels true to spec both axial and radial? (bent?) 5. Suspension settings correct? (front and rear) 6. Head bearing tightened? 7. Nothing bent or damaged? (previous owner wrecked?) 8. Wheel axle nuts torqued to spec? 9. Forks straight & even? & triple tree bolts tight? 10. Even distribution of weight in the saddlebags? Also do you have a stock windsheild or an aftermarket sheild? as this will make a difference. AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks! Northwest Area Director COG #5539 AMA #927779 IBA #15034 TEAM OREGON MC Instructor http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip) http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)

 

[JackFunTeach]

Thanks for all of your great responses. I feel encouraged that there may be a way to correct this problem. Can anyone tell me how to access "chaulboard." Per your advice, I checked my current set up. Front is cranked all the way down so no rings at all showing. I did this when I first got the bike 2 weeks ago on account that it was diving so much. The rear stock shock is set at 3 with 28 lbs of pressure. Cold tire pressure in the front is 41 ( new Metzler Z6) and the rear is 39.5 (new Avon Azaro). This is my plan based on your good advice: 1. Change tire pressure in the front to 40, and rear to 42. 2. Crank out the preload to show at least one to two rings. 3. Redue the front forks with the Race tech new valves and springs kit with Amsoil Synthetic 10 wt. oil. 4. Increase stock shock air pressure to 40, and change the oil (anyone know what kind is best?) 5. Replace stock windshield with new Rifle vented system, probably gonna get the tallest one on account that I'm 6'1' 210 and want comfort, too. 6. Take off the existing Baker air wings. 7. Tighten and Lube the steering stem. 8. Install Murph fork brace. I'm really hoping that when I complete all the above, I'll get little to no high speed wobble/drifting. Any other ideas or suggesting would really be hooking up this new concours owner to completely enjoying my new ride. As an aside, I'm loving this bike after I just had the carbs syned and dynoed. I just put in Amsoil 40/10 with a K&N air filter. Engine Ice is helping the high heat roasting my jewels. New petcock valve is going to be replaced on account that it was leaking bad. Mild buzzing still going on, but better with Murph's new grips and I'm going to get his heavy bar end kit. I can only do so much in this short period of time since the wallet is draining fast. Murph's risers help add comfort, too. My engine runs nice. When I get all the above done I'm going to have the valve adjusted, too. Thanks again, I feel I'm on my way to really enjoying a great bike that I feel could be perfect for me, I just gotta get that high speed wobble/drift out. By the way, that wobble/drift is only at highway speed as called above in the response posted. It's gotta be the wind, big saddle bags, stock windshield, and how my suspension is not properly dialed and tuned in. I'll post my progress as I go. Thanks a million for helping a concours brother get the bike the way I really want it to ride! Jack...by the way, you don't want to yell out "Hi-Jack" to me in the airport. lol...chuckle

 

[S Smith]

Your welcome Jack... and BTW welcome to COG. Be sure to look for your first NE newsletter in mid-Oct and be sure to join in on the MA COG fun. -- Steve Smith, #3184 COG Northeast Area Director (somewhere in south central CT)

If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

 

[davemuir]

Hey Jack, You can find Chalkdust I & II where you would find all great works of literature, in the Library! Make sure you are logged in, click on the Library link in the left side menu, click the Technical Documents and there you will find the Best of Chalkdust. Enjoy! Dave Muir 1980 LTD1000 - Rocket 1999 Concours - Rocket II 1997 Dyna - wife's CT-COG #3649 Merchandise Czar

 

[Brett0769]

Hang on to your air wings, you may end up putting them back on. Mine don't do a whole lot for me when it's hot, a little, but not much. In the cool though when they're closed, they keep my legs toasty. Not in the cold though, when it's 40 or below insulated gear is the only way to fly. I don't think they affect handling at all, they're attached to the inner fairing, not the frame at all so I can't see where they'd make a noticeable difference. Could be wrong though (it's happened before). I've also read about people putting lead shot in their handlebars along with Murph's grips and the heavier bar end weights to further dampen the buzz. Haven't done it to mine yet, but it has always sounded like a great idea.

 

[colt45]

Hijack! Most of the "wandering" is from the lack of damping in the rear shock (if the rear pogos and you are leaned over just a few degrees, what happens?). Some is from the lack of damping in the front. 15 weight "racing suspension fluid" (rear shock) in the rear shock makes a sweet ride. Lowering the spring preload will not help. At your weight, you need all the spring you can get. Cutting 4 to 6 inches of the close (low rate) coils off of the stock springs and adding a spacer that long WILL help. 15 weight fork oil in the front and constant rate springs makes the front very nice and stable. At your weight, I'd run 1.1 kg/mm, if you ride medium, 1.2 kg/mm if you ride fast. Cartridge emulators will probably make the front sweet, too. Don't turn your steering head bearings into a steering damper. 36 psi in the front tire is more than enough. 40 will make it hard and pointed, more likely to change directions quickly with little effort, making your problem worse. I have never run more then 36 psi in the front of any m/c tire. I sometimes run 32 in my Ducati. Is your jacket loose? Turbulent wind off of the windscreen hitting your arms will make any wobbles worse or cause them. The Baker air wings are unlikely to be part of your problems. I'd keep them. The fork brace will not affect the "wandering". It will stiffen up the initial response to a steering input and not even that much. I'd put one on again, but I'm not passionate about them. Do it last. Mismatched tires may not be part of your problem, but they will always be suspect. I have 1.2 kg/mm Sonic springs, 15 wt oil in the front, a custom valved and sprung Hagon shock on the rear (I think it has a 120 kg/mm spring) and Murph's fork brace. I have worn out 2 sets of OEM tires, most of a set of Dunlop D205s and now I've almost killed a set of Pilot Roads. The OE tires are thought to be the worst for stability. With the suspension mods above I did not have any stability problems on a 7k mile trip across the country on the OE tires, or since.

 

[smithr]

I think you forgot the one thing that will help the most. Stay out from behind trucks and things that make BAD AIR! My bike feels great till I get behind an offender. I have just trained myself not to sit and ride behind them. Either get past or drop back far enough. Funny with a truck on the hwy you may have to be back 500 yards to not feel the bad air effects. ---------------------------------- I will answer any question. It is up to you to figure out if I should have.

<p align="left"><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/20211686@N05/">My Photos<br

 

[JackFunTeach]

Appreciate all the good info. Last night I lowered the front tire pressure to high 30s, and front to low forties. Increased shock damper all the way out, I think it read 3 or 4 on there. Then this w/end I'm going out to the airport road where I live nearby, and I'm going to bury the needle. Drifting/Wandering reports to follow. My stategy is to do one or two things at a time, then, evaluate. I'm determined to get my new favorite bike right and stable at all speeds and wind conditions! Jack

 

[rev ryder]

Hello Jack, If this is your first fully faired bike, I feel it important to tel you that they DO behave different than a lighter, smaller faired sport bike. I am not saying that Connie can't run down the road at high speeds with confidence, but it will feel different than a naked or a sport bike. big fairings naturally catch more current. Big windshields are probably the biggest offenders in that area. Get the suspension to the best you can, avoid as much dirty air as you can, and ride until she becomes one with you. You'll later find that most of the "uneasiness" that you feel right now will go away with some more miles. Connie is a solid Sport Tourer, but in stock trim she isn't intended for setting land speed records. (did I say that?) Have fun, Connie is gonna treat you real good.

 

[JackFunTeach]

Update: I have done all the free stuff (air, steering stem tightener, which was hard to do with out the spanner tool...anyone know where I can buy one of those? Here's one of the biggies that made a huge difference. Grease fittings on the rear shock assembly. With those mostly lubed the rear now has much more travel, and works in tandem with the front suspension. By the way, what grease gun do you all use getting to the grease fitting at the top close to the exhaust? No more out of control wandering!!! Wicked happy about this!!! Next w/end, I'm doing the Race Tech kit, i.e., straight rate springs, new valves/emulators, and Racing Suspension Fluid (anyone know of what brand is the best? Amsoil?) I hope this really helps with high speed stability. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a speed junkie, I just like to be able to flow with High Ways in New England and when you want to pass you need speed. Plus, if truth be known, I do like to get it going sometimes...well may be a lot of times... New Rifle windshield with that air vent is going on, too. Anyone have success with the Rifle at high speed, 75 plus. Stable??

 

[2linby]

<b> New Rifle windshield with that air vent is going on, too. Anyone have success with the Rifle at high speed, 75 plus. Stable?? </b> Nobody here would ever dream of riding at ....those speeds..... BUT! IF! they did... I am sure you would get glowing remarks about the stablity of the rifle sheild system.... AKA "2linby" That's 2-lin-by folks! Northwest Area Director COG #5539 AMA #927779 IBA #15034 TEAM OREGON MC Instructor http://community.webshots.com/user/2linby http://tinyurl.com/njas8 (IBA BunBurner Gold Trip) http://tinyurl.com/lwelx (Alaska trip)

 

[elvin315]

Does your Connie like to dance? The wind will always have it's way with us but a wobble that consistantly occurs at a given speed is another matter. First check the free stuff. The best way to troubleshoot a chassis problem is to set everything to neutral. Kawasaki recommends tire pressures of 36F/41R psi but experience has shown us that higher pressure (regardless of brand or model tire) helps reduce tire cupping and wiggling. Try 40 psi up front and 42 psi in the rear. Check the fork oil level in each tube. They should be equal. Make sure your Fork's preload adjusters are equally positioned. Set them so 3 to 4 lines are showing. That's about the midrange. If you have a pre-94 model with air forks, check the fork air pressure. Use a bicycle pump or other low pressure pump and set them at 4 psi to start with. This isn't an accurate sag setting but it should get you close enough to eliminate it as a cause for the wobble. Check and tighten the steering head bearings if necessary. To do this loosen the pinch bolts on the lower triple clamp and the lock nut on the steering stem. Tighten the castle nut until the fork resists turning then back off an 1/8 of a turn. Remember to retighten everything. Also, and I know this sounds strange, check that the tops of the fork tubes are even and flush with the top of the clip ons. Check, you never know. Lift the front wheel off the ground and check the wheel bearings for smoothness. If they feel notchy or grind while spinning replace them. Grab the tires at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions (approx). Try to move the wheel side to side. There should be no play. If there is replace the bearings. The front tire's tread pattern can contribute to the situation. Tires with a center grove tend to wander more than those without. Do you know how old those tires are? Even new tires can be old depending on how long they sat around in a warehouse before being mounted. The aromatic compounds in the rubber eventually evaporate and leave the rubber harder. The bike could also have been on display in the showroom where the tires could be exposed to UV rays or ozone gas. This will prematurely age a tire. Increasing the tire pressure will aggravate the situation because it will stiffen the already nonpliant sidewalls. Check the tires for cracks in the sidewalls and inside the tread sipes. If the tires require replacement have the wheel bearings changed too. They can also be a source of the wobble. This was told to me by an old black leather biker. Might not help but it can't hurt. Position the bike so it's facing a wall with the front tire is touching. Loosen the front axle pinch bolts. Straddle the bike and bounce on the seat while simultaneously pushing the bike forward against the wall. Stay off the front brake. This stunt will let the brake discs find a happy center with respect to the calipers and align the wheel and tire between the fork legs. Tighten the axle pinch clamps according to the manual. The fork is squared away so now it's time for the rear suspension. Set the pressure in the rear shock at 25 psi (max is 50 psi) and the damping to 2 or 3. Again, this is an approximate setting. You can fine tune the sag later. Check the wheel bearings as you did the fronts. Lube the shock linkage to eliminate any binding there. A long shot possibility could be worn swing arm bearings/bushings. Play in the swingarm could translate into a wobble in the fork just as a sloppy fork can cause instability in the rear. Check are the engine mounting bolts. They have been known to loosen or break. There are 2 (1 each side) in the top front corners of the cylinderhead, 1 long one in the rear of the upper crankcase half, and 1 long one in the rear of the lower crankcase half. Contrary to the brochures the engine is not rubber mounted. These mountings are rigid. The frame needs the engine to reinforce it or it will flex. Now, if neutralizing the bike hasn't eliminated the wandering you can play with some adjustments. Set the front and rear sag by changing the preloads. Change the rear damping and see if that helps. Change the tire pressures one at a time. Record all the changes you make and take a test ride. Follow the same route on each test ride and maintain the same speeds. Record your impressions after each ride. Compare the results and return to the best of them. If after these adjustments, the wobble hasn't decreased or disappeared, a fork brace might help. It ties the fork stanchions together, prevents the axle from flexing, and the wheel from wobbling. Besides reinforcing the fork it improves the Concours' handling. It's possible you need stiffer fork springs. The originals may be too soft for your weight, your passenger's weight, your load, and the bike itself. Sonic Springs makes 1.0, 1.1, and 1.2 ratio springs for the Concours. I use Race Tech 1.0s but Progressives are popular too, though a little soft for really spirited riding. Your fork oil may be worn out too. Try some fresh 15 weight. The rear shock fluid is replaceable even though the shock isn't rebuilbable. Try 15 weight suspension fluid there also. One thing we can't do much about is the affect of pushing that barndoor of a fairing through the air. Since we don't ride in a vacuum, whether its nature's breath or a tandem truck's wake, turbulence is part of our reality. At high speed, pressure builds up in front of the fairing and the bike can't cut though it cleanly or push it aside as easily as it did around town. Instead of the bike pushing the air from its path, the air compresses and resists, and pushes the bike back. (Newton's Law of Action & Opposite Reaction) Like a leaf fluttering from side to side on its way to the ground, the motorcycle will shake and shudder. It's subtle but it's there. You can cut the shield down, way down, to reduce your frontal area and gain some cooler air to the chest as an added bonus. The Rifle windshield system passes high pressure air under the shield to reduce turbulence in the cockpit. It also lowers the pressure ahead of the fairing. Honda used to mold holes in the front of the CBR900RR fairing for the same reason. Try an experiment. Remove the shield and go for a ride. It will tell you if you're on the ride track or not. Crosswinds and turbulence from other vehicles compound the problem. They grab the shield and use it as a lever to roll the bike around its lean axis. I'm afraid the bags add aerodynamic drag too. Eddies back there will tug at the bike possibly inducing a wobble or shake. Add air wings, trunk, driving lights, fairing extenders, etc., and it only gets worse. Some recommend removing the foot scoops but at the cost of roasting your tootsies I don't think it's worth it. Finally, there's good old pilot induced wobble. Without realizing it you could be holding the bars too tight and tranfering unintended steering input. A whiteknuckle grip is unnecessary at any speed. Relax your grip and give Connie some leeway. She's usually stable if setup properly. Are you countersteering? If not you could be wrestling the bike instead of steering her and the result is instability. Some of the things I've mentioned are simplistic and some are off the wall. It just goes to show how complicated the problem can be. There is no easy answer because the cause of the instability isn't easy to pinpoint. Check these articles and sites too: http://will.mylanders.com/outdoors/motorcycle/concours/notes/read.pl?file=25 http://will.mylanders.com/outdoors/motorcycle/concours/notes/read.pl?file=26 http://will.mylanders.com/outdoors/motorcycle/notes/read.pl?file=144 http://www.sportrider.com/tech/index.html

Elvin Rivera - Williamsville, NY - COG# 2536 My Concours Album

 

[Brett0769]

I found this to be damned handy. http://www.automated-design.com/concours/parts.htm I got my Hook Spanner for steering head adjustment from McMaster Carr per the suggestion on that list. It's part no. PN#6975A16 though it's not 11.02 anymore, if I recall correctly it's 14-ish these days.

 

[2fast]

I had the exact problem you describe when I ran the Storms on front and Azaro rear. It got into a very scary weave at about 90, and would do the decel wobble as well. It got better as the tire wore, and was pretty good when the tire was shot at about 5K (the rear). Straight line riding was best described as balancing on razor blades. It wandered about. The bike did not do this with previous or the subsequent brands. I know plenty of guys that have had perfect results with these tires, but not me. Also, it took a lot of weight to balance the rear, but not enough for Avon to call it bad. YMMV