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Next Generation Kipass System?

What is your experience with KIPASS?

  • Total voters
    84
4bikes

4bikes

COG#9715 AAD
Member
I saw this Biometric starting device used on a Paul Junior Designs bike build.
http://www.fistenterprises.com/index.php/technology/faqs
http://www.prweb.com/releases/biometric/chopper/prweb8742391.htm

F.I.S.T. BioSmartStart provides fingerprint authentication and keyless entry for motorized vehicles and motor sports equipment. It connects to the electrical starter of your engine, and once the operator’s identity is authenticated, the device starts the motor.  BioSmartStart can identify up to 100 fingerprints, so you can authorize as many users as you wish, to be able to start your vehicle. It also has a valet switch, should you wish to deactivate the unit, or allow single-use users.  It’s more than just an alarm system Only authorized users can start the vehicle.  Whether to protect your children from the temptation of joyrides, or to protect your property from unlawful access, BioSmartStart will secure your vehicle, without the complication of keeping track of keys.

Makes you wonder if Momma Kawi will bring this out to replace the FOB?  I can’t wait to hear Capt Bob moan about this possible “improvement” to Kipass  ;D.  Advantages would be you could not lose the FOB.  Obviously you could narrow down exactly who can ride the bike, and not just the lucky person that grabbed hold of the FOB.  Disadvantages would be you would need to remove a glove to start, or cut off a glove tip.  It would also add another 25 pages to the user manual.  It could have potential, or just another reason to wonder why you can’t figure out why the bike won’t start.  I have no idea if this could be a Farkle and work in conjunction with Kipass.

Does anybody see this as the future?  I use a fingerprint swipe to log onto my work computer, and I know it works.
 
I sure hope not. Kawasaki hasn't yet given up on this KIPASS debacle. Why do they feel it's necessary to reinvent the wheel? Lets make the bike heavier, more complicated, more expensive, use up valuable storage room, and arguative make it less reliable. All the while still using the key and switch to start the bike!  :))
Now lets go one step farther. Lets make it that you have to be registered to a certain computer to even start the bike. I can imagine the nightmare now of trying to have a bike serviced or trying to sell the bike used. And that's not to mention the possible problems that could come with more unnecessary complexity and technology. All the while when conventional key and switch set ups have been tried and true with little trouble over the years. KIPASS on the other hand?  >:D
 
Preach on!  Never understood the supposed "benefit" of the system over a key.  Looking for more security?  They could do the GM style "key with a chip" that doesn't effect basic function.
 
Plus, to operate the bike you still need a key....

I hope they upgrade it. Right out to the dumpster with all the works parts they smash at the end of every year.
 
So just how bad is Kipass anyway?  My experience is only based on 6 months and 6000 miles, but it works.  Ironically, one of the weakest points seems to be the traditional but feeble stove knob key that bends and can break, and a spring in the traditional lock on earlier models. 

Seeing repeated posts about Kipass supposedly (actually?) not working makes me not trust it.  But how bad is it anyway?  How many for-real failures have users actually reported?  I suppose you would need to include FOBs that went through the washing machine.  Would this percentage of failures be any less or more than the failure rate of any other “modern technology” on the machine, such as fuel injection, ECU’s, ABS, traction control, etc?  I’m not defending Kipass and the technology since it really doesn’t do much more than replace a standard key with a gadget.  Replacing the FOB and reprogramming is also expensive and troublesome. Perhaps the real answer is not seeing a post that says “I love Kipass and really saved me today and made my life better”.

The Biometric, however, would be an improvement in security that may justify added complexity.  A stolen/borrowed key or FOB is all that is needed to start and steal most motorcycles, and this threat is eliminated with this newer technology.
 
I only had my 09 for 1 year and 12,000 miles but have not a problem with KiPASS. I never take the key out of the ignition, I use the key in the FOB to open the gas tank and take the seat off. If Kawasaki wanted to up grade the system ( I like the idea of not using a key) they could do like I have in my 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee. You carry a FOB in your pocket and there is a push button on the dash to start the car. Push it once to start, twice for accessories. A button on the doors locks them and unlocks them if the FOB is within 5 feet. I know Toyota and Nissan has this and several other cars do. I think it would be great on a bike. The only thing I can think of is by pushing instead of turning they would have to come up with another way to lock the front end. But thats something else I never use so I wouldn't miss that either.
 
4Bikes said:
So just how bad is Kipass anyway?  My experience is only based on 6 months and 6000 miles, but it works.  Ironically, one of the weakest points seems to be the traditional but feeble stove knob key that bends and can break, and a spring in the traditional lock on earlier models. 

Seeing repeated posts about Kipass supposedly (actually?) not working makes me not trust it.  But how bad is it anyway?  How many for-real failures have users actually reported?  I suppose you would need to include FOBs that went through the washing machine.  Would this percentage of failures be any less or more than the failure rate of any other “modern technology” on the machine, such as fuel injection, ECU’s, ABS, traction control, etc?  I’m not defending Kipass and the technology since it really doesn’t do much more than replace a standard key with a gadget.  Replacing the FOB and reprogramming is also expensive and troublesome. Perhaps the real answer is not seeing a post that says “I love Kipass and really saved me today and made my life better”.

The Biometric, however, would be an improvement in security that may justify added complexity.  A stolen/borrowed key or FOB is all that is needed to start and steal most motorcycles, and this threat is eliminated with this newer technology.
Click to expand...


I can't speak for all folks, just myself. I for one had enough KIPASS failures and enough KIPASS strandings that I ride an FJR now. Which I might add has a normal key switch and has had zero problems.
 
I actually hate polls like this. The odds of folks that had problems with the system still being around, are much less than folks who have never had trouble. The folks that have had troubles might have moved on to other bikes. So there's a good chance the poll will show that nobody ever had trouble. OK, I'm still around, with another bike!  :))
 
13,000 miles and NO KiPass issues.

We use a finger print scanner to clock in/out at work and to log in and out of projects/jobs. It sucks just slightly more than a theoretical perfect vacuum. Buggiest piece of electronic crap, ever.

 
4Bikes said:
I added a Poll at the top to see how widespread the KIPASS issue really is.
Click to expand...


Is this something we really wanted to start up again? These topics on KIPASS never are smooth. They always bring up strong feelings, and nothing good ever comes from it. You should reconsider your poll and what may start because of it. Just saying.  ;)
 
Here we go again.
18 months, 31,000 miles.
NO KIPASS ISSUES EVER.
Heck I haven't even temporarily lost my fob.
 
I wish I had a dollar for every time I told someone how much I love the bike but hate the friggin key fob.  Every time I ride the bike that stupid fob is on my mind. 
 
Fingerprint Bio-metric security devices are proving to be easily defeatable. The guys at Mythbusters tried three different methods to fool a supposed unbeatable fingerprint security system and were successful in gaining entry with ALL three methods. Including just using a fricken photocopy of the fingerprint! The fingerprint scanner was supposedly never beaten and it also scans for body heat and pulse. One of the biggest drawbacks to finger print readers is that usually, your finger prints are all over the device you are protecting. You are essentially leaving your key right by the lock, just waiting for someone to lift a print and make a copy of it!

I dont think I want that kind of system "protecting" my bike....

google it....
Some lady even used a fake fingerprint to enter countries illegally.

Jose Soriano
 
That is very interesting information.  It would seem that lifting and copying a fingerprint is a lot of effort that may or may not work.  Walking off with a motorcycle jacket with the FOB in the pocket, or your kid or a thief finding a FOB on the kitchen counter seems like a much easier way to start the motorcycle.  Two factor authentication as in FOB and fingerprint, would greatly improve security overall. 

Very few security systems can stand up to an all-out assault.  No ignition security system will deter four guys, two 2 x 4’s and a truck. Short of the obvious no-technology improvement for Kipass,-as in replace it with a traditional key that works-what other improvements to Kipass can be made?
 
The systems I use for computer access register all 10 fingers as part of the initial setup process.  Any one of the registered fingers can then be used for access.
 
4Bikes said:
The systems I use for computer access register all 10 fingers as part of the initial setup process.
Click to expand...


Now you want something that has to read all ten fingers just so that you can start your bike? You guys are really something!  :rotflmao:
 
Nick said:
I wish I had a dollar for every time I told someone how much I love the bike but hate the friggin key fob.  Every time I ride the bike that stupid fob is on my mind.
Click to expand...

I just don't get this.
I never every think about my fob, and a bonus, I also never have to think about a key.
 
MrPepsi said:
Nick said:
I wish I had a dollar for every time I told someone how much I love the bike but hate the friggin key fob.  Every time I ride the bike that stupid fob is on my mind.
Click to expand...

I just don't get this.
I never every think about my fob, and a bonus, I also never have to think about a key.
Click to expand...


Sure, what I would think is you have to be aware of where the fob is at all times. It's not like a spaer key that you can hide on the bike or in your wallet. If you take the fob out for any reason, or have it fall out of your pocket, have your coat stolen with it inside or just have it go bad. Your bassilly screwed unless you carry a spare fob with you as well. A spare key or twenty still cost way, way less than one spare transmitting fob. Then add in programing! The fob also takes up lots more room than just a key.
I'm not saying everyones fob will go bad, or they'll lose them. But they still are much more worrysome than a plain old key. And like I said, it's easy to hide on the bike. A fob is much more work to hide or takes up a lot more room when riding. Although the newer RFID only card fob is smaller and easier to store and hind. But of course they are more work to use than just having the normal key in the first place. I thought about my fob constantly. Becuase if something does happen to it, I could be screwed. And at very least it's going to cost me a fortune. That just added to the worry of whether my C14 was going to start, every single time I tried to push in the stove knob key! Sometimes it would. Sometimes I waited for the trailer to come.
I'm glad y'all have been lucky and not had problems with it. Hopefully Kawasaki did fix the problem that they will not admit ever exsisted. But sorry, I'll take a tryed and true key that in my opinion and experince is cheaper, more dependable and easier and more cost effective to have back up's for peace of mind.  :nananana:
 
But on bikes with standard keys, all it takes is a standard screw driver and a hammer and the bike is yours. So how is that safer\better than a FOB you can misplace? My fob is always in the inside pocket of my jacket. My spare is at home in my safe. There are always circumstances which makes either type a very bad day. I prefer the added safety and convenience of my fob.
 
Don't get me wrong Brent. I'm not saying that standard keys are more secure. Not at all. Just saying that some of us do not find the system and fobs more convenient than a normal key. I found it to be more of a hassle. (And I don't mean becuase of failures). I just do not see the need for the system. I never found it convenient. It was all the same down sides of using normal key switches, without the positives of normal key switches.
I like a lot of other folks, I just do not find it worth having on the bike. And truthfully, that's why I went elsewhere. This system goes against everything a sport tour is. It's geared towards luxury tour bikes rather than sport. Sorry, I'll buy a BMW or GoldWing when I want all the luxury and weight that comes with it. For now, I want my bike as light and simple as posible. But have shaft drive, power and handling. If they want to add weight and complxity to the bike. Add sommething useful like cruise control. But adding an electronic soleniod just so that I don't have to take the key out is stupid, IMO.
 
For anyone that ever had a FOB/KPass issue, I'd be really interested to see which model year they owned. I've never had a problem with my 2011. Given, I'm at only about 7,000 miles, so there's still time for an issue to crop up, but ... (knock on wood).

I have my FOB sitting in the same place that I'd leave the key, if the bike were so equipped. Pick it up and put it in my pocket on the way to the bike. If you're worried about the FOB falling out of your pocket or otherwise losing it, that's no different than a traditional key.

The only time my stoveknob leaves the ignition is when I'm getting gas or opening the side boxes. I just leave it in the ignition the rest of the time.

I just can't imagine anyone hating an ignition "system" so badly that it would be the only reason they'd get rid of the bike. Just sayin'.
 
wally_games said:
For anyone that ever had a FOB/KPass issue, I'd be really interested to see which model year they owned. I've never had a problem with my 2011. Given, I'm at only about 7,000 miles, so there's still time for an issue to crop up, but ... (knock on wood).

I have my FOB sitting in the same place that I'd leave the key, if the bike were so equipped. Pick it up and put it in my pocket on the way to the bike. If you're worried about the FOB falling out of your pocket or otherwise losing it, that's no different than a traditional key.

The only time my stoveknob leaves the ignition is when I'm getting gas or opening the side boxes. I just leave it in the ignition the rest of the time.

I just can't imagine anyone hating an ignition "system" so badly that it would be the only reason they'd get rid of the bike. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...


Well Ben had a bent stove knob problem just the other day. Ben rides a 2010.

And you might imagine getting rid of you bike for the ignition system if it kept stranding you. Just sayin'!  ;)
 
IIRC, most if not all reported KiPass issues centered on a faulty sensor switch that detects when the stove key is depressed. The failure mode is the switch does not release. Several failures of the same type is usually considered one repeatable failure. 
Has anyone else experienced any other type of failure?  BTW - I do not feel that signal blockage or bad/low battery should be considered a failure.

I'll stay with KiPass.  Having developed product that used similar biometric sensor, I would not want one on my vehicle. The system needs to be "trained" to "learn" valid fingerprints.  Poor "training" will lead to very poor first time read rates. Fingerprint minutia matching will fail if something happens to alter fingerprint (ie burn, scar, dirt/grease). The CCD fingerprint reader is exposed and prone to damage by elements, vandalism, and abnormal wear conditions.

 
Why not an actual KIPASS failure. Low battery voltage or a signal blockage is a failure in my book. If you can not turn the key on to even find out you have a battery problem, it makes troubleshooting much more difficult. Something as simple as a loose contact is much harder to find and repair because you don't know you have a battery problem yet. All because the system is designed to screw you over!  :)) With a normal key, you know you have a problem as soon as you turn on the key and press the starter button. So although the failure is not actually the KIPASS failing. KIPASS by it's design multiplies the problem because of it design that fails to work without battery. A  design that knowingly puts you in a worse position with battery problems is again a bad design. If you designed the system to fail this way, then when it fails it is still a KIPASS failure, since it fails to unlock the key when you have pushed down on the stove knob key. I give the designers no slack, because they designed the system to make things more difficult for folks when this happens. So in my book it's a pseudo KIPASS failure. Because it's a simple problem that is now a much bigger problem to troubleshoot by design.
As for the signal. If the system will not work because the signal is blocked by the glove box, tank bag, bad fob or fob battery, or anything else. It's my opinion that the design is flawed and does not work as intended. That's a failure in my book, whether it's a hardware failure of not. If the KIPASS will not work because it's design will not allow for possible signal problems. Then it fails in it's mission. AKA, KIPASS failure. Sorry but poor design does not let it off the hook for it not working. It's still failing. Whether it's a component failing or a system failing by poor design.
The fact is that a normal key would turn on whether the battery is dead or full charge. The key would turn on whether or not there is some kind of interference that might block a signal for radio frequency. The key bike would start and ride away with radio interference. And would more than likely would be troubleshoot to the lose of power much faster. Thus probably also repaired and on the road much quicker with the standard key.
So although a actual KIPASS component has not failed in either situation. IMO, in both situations, the KIPASS design has failed to allow the key to be turned on by design. Thus failing in it's designed mission. If that is not also a failure, what is?  ;)
 
Cap'n Bob said:
Why not an actual KIPASS failure. Low battery voltage or a signal blockage is a failure in my book. If you can not turn the key on to even find out you have a battery problem, it makes troubleshooting much more difficult. Something as simple as a loose contact is much harder to find and repair because you don't know you have a battery problem yet. All because the system is designed to screw you over!
Click to expand...

So not replacing your oil in your engine and running it until it seizes is a failure of the engine?
 
MrPepsi said:
Cap'n Bob said:
Why not an actual KIPASS failure. Low battery voltage or a signal blockage is a failure in my book. If you can not turn the key on to even find out you have a battery problem, it makes troubleshooting much more difficult. Something as simple as a loose contact is much harder to find and repair because you don't know you have a battery problem yet. All because the system is designed to screw you over!
Click to expand...

So not replacing your oil in your engine and running it until it seizes is a failure of the engine?
Click to expand...


Sorry Brent, try again. If they designed the engine not to work on oil anymore because it's the new better way to do things, than the tried and true use of oil. Then yes it would be the engines fault. They designed KIPASS with this flaw. If it's designed to fail this way. Then it's a design failure. You cannot use you letting the oil run out as a comparison, unless you can come up with an example where they changed the design that now allows for the failure, where it would not exist in the past.
 
So any new technology that uses batteries can be considered a failure when the battery run out of energy.
How many times did you have the batteries in the 1st TV remote you every owned die?  Was the TV a failure?
 
MrPepsi said:
Not worth discussing anymore.
Kipass is evil, everyone sell your C14 because Kipass is a POS.
Click to expand...


First off, I don't remember calling it a POS. I thought we were having a civil discussion of the possible negative effects of KIPASS. Why is it that if everything isn't Rosy and the positive things you want to hear, we immediately go to that attitude. I'm sorry, I won't have discussions with y'all on KIPASS. Since if everything doesn't agree with you and be what you want to hear. We then go this route. I'm a little disappointed.  ???
 
It was not a discussion Bob, you just coudn't see how a dead battery could be anything but a defect to the entire bike and how a 16oz selenoid is going against the whole idea of a sport tourer. I mean really. I offered up an idea a year ago for everyone to replace their fob batteries at the same time you change out the batteries in your smoke alarm, and everyone thought I was crazy. Now if a fob battery goes dead, it corrupts the entire bike and makes it a defect. Not sure I follow the logic.
 
kawcon14rider said:
So any new technology that uses batteries can be considered a failure when the battery run out of energy.
How many times did you have the batteries in the 1st TV remote you every owned die?  Was the TV a failure?
Click to expand...


If it has to have power to function as intended as part of the design. Then fails and will not perform it's primary function when the power is gone, then I guess yes, we could say that. And I'm sure that when the TV remote batteries die and it fails. You can still turn the TV on, and change the channels and volume manually. You obviously can't do that with this threads topic. And just to point out. My first TV remote (and VCR for that matter) both were not battery operated. They were attached by a cord connected to the TV (VCR). And it never failed! I replaced them both years later with updated equipment.  ;)
 
MrPepsi said:
It was not a discussion Bob, you just coudn't see how a dead battery could be anything but a defect to the entire bike and how a 16oz selenoid is going against the whole idea of a sport tourer. I mean really. I offered up an idea a year ago for everyone to replace their fob batteries at the same time you change out the batteries in your smoke alarm, and everyone thought I was crazy. Now if a fob battery goes dead, it corrupts the entire bike and makes it a defect. Not sure I follow the logic.
Click to expand...


It must have been a discussion if you keep discussing it with me!  ;)  And lets just point out that there is a lot more to the KIPASS system than a 16oz solenoid. I never said the dead battery was a defect to the entire bike. I said to some effect that a dead battery shows a defect in the design and function of the KIPASS system (big difference).
As far as your idea for replacing the batteries. I don't remember it personally. But in fact I think it's really a good idea. It only cost a few dollars and is good preventive maintenance.
 
Cap'n Bob said:
I never said the dead battery was a defect to the entire bike. I said to some effect that a dead battery shows a defect in the design and function of the KIPASS system (big difference).
Click to expand...

Oh... I get Bob's logic now.  When the battery in your car/truck goes bad and must be replaced it must be a defect with the charging system?  When tires have a slow leak, it must be a defective wheel or TPS system.  :nananana:
 
I started this thread with the intention of looking to the future of KIPASS and improving the system.  Moderator, Cap'n Bob was quick to jump in make it known once again that he does not like the KIPASS and perhaps fanned the holy war flames on the issue?  In fact, having read other Kipass threads, I pointed that potential out in my original post that he was going to moan about it. ;D

I think we need to get this vetted out.  If you did not follow the Kipass issue closely, and were looking for information on a C14, you might notice that the forum has a moderator essentially saying that the ignition system is so poor he needed to buy a Yamaha to resolve the problem.  The best thing about the COG forum is discussing problems and better yet finding solutions.  I’m not so sure buying another motorcycle is a solution.  Let’s figure out the issues with Kipass and find a solution.  My confidence level is not so good right now, but I am digging the posts coming in saying that they have run long times and many miles with no problems.  That fact, and understanding the root cause of issues and solutions will build back the confidence.  :)
 
There is a by-pass for the only part that has failed, at least to the best of my knowledge. I worked the by-pass out a few years ago in response to some discussion with a few others about this very issue. The photos are lost but the text might be found out in cyberspace if a Google search is done for KiPass By-pass.

P.S. I do not discuss the <k-word> issue and will not reply to anything in this thread. I merely wanted to point the way to a bit of knowledge some have found useful in the past.

Brian

4Bikes said:
I started this thread with the intention of looking to the future of KIPASS and improving the system. 

<snip>

Let’s figure out the issues with Kipass and find a solution.  My confidence level is not so good right now, but I am digging the posts coming in saying that they have run long times and many miles with no problems.  That fact, and understanding the root cause of issues and solutions will build back the confidence.  :)
Click to expand...
 
Hmmmm, Brian. I may have a printout of the Kipass Bypass with pictures.
I'll see if I can round it up.
 
First off, I really don't know why the moderator title needed to be applied when making reference towards me? I hope that you do not want to imply that a moderator can not have an opinion (whether positive or negative) on a subject. So unless you feel I have broken a forum rule that you think should be pointed out. Then I see no reason that the moderator term had to be tacked on in anyway. Yes I do moderate when it is necessary. But when that is not necessary, I am just plain old Cap'n Bob, like every other forum member posting. I just wanted to point this out. I hope you can see the difference. With that said:
I don't know if I would say that I " was quick to jump in make it known once again that he does not like the KIPASS and perhaps fanned the holy war flames on the issue?" Maybe slightly in discussion after the fact.  My point was that you were suggesting more unnecessary improvements to a system that has been (questionably) a bane for some and a convenience for others. My point was why? Although the KIPASS system seems to have had a reduction in the number of KIPASS issues as time had gone by. The facts still do remain that issues do or at least did exist. The question I had was why it needed to be possibly more complex and possibly less reliable than the existing system. Now let me point out that not all folks love and feel the systems merit or necessity. Some do find it totally unnecessary and would prefer it not be on the bike.
As far as my situation, which you chose to reference with the statement of: " you might notice that the forum has a moderator essentially saying that the ignition system is so poor he needed to buy a Yamaha to resolve the problem." As bad as that sounds, basically that statement is true. But the one thing you need to change as to not mislead other folks is that it should say: The ignition system on my C14 proved to be so unreliable". I would prefer that references to my particular situation not be lumped in with every-one's C14 or the KIPASS system as a whole. But in my case, yes after three years of battling troubles with my particular C14's KIPASS system, without feeling satisfied that problem had ever been resolved. I lost confidence and trust in my C14. When you  always grit your teeth in anticipation every time you push the stove knob key, wondering if it's going to unlock this time, or not. You realise that you do not have confidence in your motorcycle.
Now again in my case, since again, you chose to use it as reference in this last post. I did not need to "buy a Yamaha to resolve the problem. " I did feel that parting ways with my C14 was the best decision for me, in my situation. Yes I did not trust the KIPASS on my C14 to function as intended (based on it's history). And since I did not feel satisfied that Kawasaki ever made the necessary repairs that would correct the issue. Then yes, I parted ways with my C14. In my case, I just happened to buy a Yamaha. But lets point out that there were many ways to part company with a troubled bike. Replacing my C14 with a Yamaha was the choice that I made.
  You then go on to say: "The best thing about the COG forum is discussing problems and better yet finding solutions."  I totally agree. Finding solutions to a problems is always preferred. But I have to ask you how long you would deal with a problem, say just for example. Say you kept having problems with your transmission shifting on your bike. You keep having problems getting the bike into gears when riding. Yet every time you bring it to the dealer, they find it's working properly and cannot confirm your complaint. They tell you that they are not authorized to rip your transmission apart to look into it without confirming the problem first (Since Kawasaki is going to foot the bill). You tell me how long (how many years) are you going to put up with these on and off troubles before you decide the your not satisfied that there has been a solution? In my case,  it was three years.
In the end, the dealer was finally able to confirm the problem, because they could not ever get the bike to start until after it was finally ripped apart. At this point there was the (unacknowledged from Kawasaki) rumor of a replacement return spring for the KIPASS actuator. But the problem I had was that I was told that Kawasaki only authorized the cleaning and lubing of the original parts that had been failing on and off for three years since the bike was new. I personally didn't feel satisfied that the issues with the KIPASS were totally addressed. I will say that had Kawasaki actually told me that they replaced something like the actuator return spring. I would have given them the benefit of the doubt and gave my bike another chance. (I did like my bike).
But I saw this as one of two things. Either Kawasaki did in fact replace the actuator return spring along with cleaning and lubing the other parts, and would not admit they repaired it. (Which I could see as to not wanting to open the flood gates from other C14 owners wanting the new spring). Or they truly only cleaned and lubed the OEM parts that began failing when the bike was brand new, and continued on and off for three years. This is was led to my decision that I now had lost all trust in my bikes reliability. This is what led to my trading in my C14 on the Yamaha (that just happen to be what I felt was my best solution to my situation, not the only solution).
So although I will say that the KIAPSS system's reliability has improved immensely over the years. And although I still don't think Kawasaki has ever admitted to changing the KIPASS activation return spring (but folks have seen the replacement  that went on their bikes that had problems). I think the KIPASS is in fact much more reliable on the newer versions of the C14 because of it. But that doesn't mean I would still see a need for the system in the first place. I questioned the need before I bought my C14 and before I had any troubles with it. I still bought the C14 or course and did give it a try. Whether of not I ever had KIPASS problems aside. I still would not see the need or want the system on my next bike after the original C14. Would it have kept me from buying another C14, had I not had trouble with my first C14? Truthfully I can't answer that. But until you walked a mile in my shoes, please do not pass judgement. You may have a different perspective if you were able to enjoy sitting a long way from home in a desolate area. Just sitting and watching the snow come down waiting for the trailer that's coming to rescue you because you couldn't start your bike. And this was just the beginning.
So although I will say the I seriously doubt that the majority of C14 owners will probably have little of no problems with the system. It is still smart to be aware of past problems and workarounds so you don't find yourself in a similar situation, should a problem arise.  And just to point out, everything I wrote in this thread was Bob the forum member who had thoughts, experience and opinions to share. Not Bob the moderator as you  decided to make an issue..  ;)



To add:  Your were right when you wrote that in the first post. It was like putting cheese in the trap. And I'll almost always take the bait!  :))




4Bikes said:
I started this thread with the intention of looking to the future of KIPASS and improving the system.  Moderator, Cap'n Bob was quick to jump in make it known once again that he does not like the KIPASS and perhaps fanned the holy war flames on the issue?  In fact, having read other Kipass threads, I pointed that potential out in my original post that he was going to moan about it. ;D

I think we need to get this vetted out.  If you did not follow the Kipass issue closely, and were looking for information on a C14, you might notice that the forum has a moderator essentially saying that the ignition system is so poor he needed to buy a Yamaha to resolve the problem.  The best thing about the COG forum is discussing problems and better yet finding solutions.  I’m not so sure buying another motorcycle is a solution.  Let’s figure out the issues with Kipass and find a solution.  My confidence level is not so good right now, but I am digging the posts coming in saying that they have run long times and many miles with no problems.  That fact, and understanding the root cause of issues and solutions will build back the confidence.  :)
Click to expand...
 
  My C14 is 49 months old & 57,000 miles on it with no kipass problems. Replaced fob battery at 2yrs. just because it seemed like a good idea. Always keep fob in left front pants pocket & always use stove key to gas up. Now for a true story, rode out west 2 yrs. ago with a buddy riding a FJR, guess who broke down? He did, his ignition switch failed! We were leaving Vegas at the time, wrecker was called & bike hauled to dealer ($175.00) Part was ordered, my buddy rented a Harley so he could continue riding ($600.00). 4 days later a call was made to dealer & the part was back ordered so he heads back to Vegas to pick up his bike & get rental truck ($350.00) to haul the bike in. Me, well I had nice ride back to Arkansas from Northern California by myself. His ignition switch came in 5 weeks later & local dealer replaced it (no charge). There was a recall on them because of so many faliure's. Yamaha sent him $150.00 gift card for his troubles, to spend at there dealership! His bike was 2 yrs. old with 12,000 mi.on it.

Anything can fail!  :beerchug:
 
Bob, I saw you wearing the moderator hat when you said I should “reconsider your poll and what may start because of it”. No need to tell us your opinion of the poll, because you already did.  The poll stays, because I want to see how widespread the Kipass issue really is.  I’m also not buying the notion that a large number of folks gave up on the C14, and are no longer hanging around to place their vote.  I do concede that no poll will perfect, but if we see large numbers of failures, I for one want to know that.  I like hearing that Just Cliff has a run of 49 months and 57K miles with no Kipass problems. 
 
4Bikes said:
Bob, I saw you wearing the moderator hat when you said I should “reconsider your poll and what may start because of it”. No need to tell us your opinion of the poll, because you already did.  The poll stays, because I want to see how widespread the Kipass issue really is.  I’m also not buying the notion that a large number of folks gave up on the C14, and are no longer hanging around to place their vote.  I do concede that no poll will perfect, but if we see large numbers of failures, I for one want to know that.  I like hearing that Just Cliff has a run of 49 months and 57K miles with no Kipass problems.
Click to expand...


No your wrong again. I suggested not having the poll as just plain old Bob, becuase of what normally winds up happening in these KIPASS threads no matter how simple the original post was meant to be. By adding the poll that started asking how much trouble folks have had. It opens the door to threads that this one has already turned into now. An all out KIPASS thread. I suggested that as a guy who always winds up in the KIPASS threads and was trying to head off another all out KIPASS thread, at the pass, before we all got carried away with the dreaded KIPASS thread. I suggested this, not as a moderator, but as just another forum guy who obviously has been there before (KIPASS threads), and knows how bad they can be.
  As a moderator, I would have split the topic into two threads. This would be becuase your poll had nothing to do with your topic. Your poll has now changed your topic from adding finger print ID on to the KIPASS system. To now being a why we love/dislike KIPASS thread. So please don't presume to think I did anything in this thread as a moderater. Becuase if I had, there would be two threads now that can stir up KIPASS feelings.
  Now since you insisted on fueling the fire with the poll, so that, I quote: "I want to see how widespread the Kipass issue really is." Well I will allow that.  Since I try not to censor folks without reason (even if I see it won't be good). But once there's reason, the moderator hat would have to come out. But Since your so interested in bringing up KIPASS failures. I will help you out. I will provide you a whole bunch of KIPASS failures from not long ago. Since I get the feeling that you seem to think that it isn't possible that people in the past have had KIPASS issues, and may not still be around. Stay tuned, since you have to have it!
 
Just Cliff said:
  My C14 is 49 months old & 57,000 miles on it with no kipass problems. Replaced fob battery at 2yrs. just because it seemed like a good idea. Always keep fob in left front pants pocket & always use stove key to gas up. Now for a true story, rode out west 2 yrs. ago with a buddy riding a FJR, guess who broke down? He did, his ignition switch failed! We were leaving Vegas at the time, wrecker was called & bike hauled to dealer ($175.00) Part was ordered, my buddy rented a Harley so he could continue riding ($600.00). 4 days later a call was made to dealer & the part was back ordered so he heads back to Vegas to pick up his bike & get rental truck ($350.00) to haul the bike in. Me, well I had nice ride back to Arkansas from Northern California by myself. His ignition switch came in 5 weeks later & local dealer replaced it (no charge). There was a recall on them because of so many faliure's. Yamaha sent him $150.00 gift card for his troubles, to spend at there dealership! His bike was 2 yrs. old with 12,000 mi.on it.

Anything can fail!  :beerchug:
Click to expand...

I had the Stovepipe spring issue occur in Sturgis last Sept. while doing a solo ride. I had no prior issues with it, till the failure.
After tapping and beating on the ignition box, off and on for about three hours, it made contact and the bike started.
I wish that it hadn't, because I decided that I was going to rent a vehicle to transport my Connie back to NJ, rather than have the issues, your buddy had.
So, now with the bike running, I make a spontaneous decision to get as close to NJ as I can, while it would still run.
I made it home, with only 30 minutes sleep, never turning off the stovepipe. It has the makings of a great campfire story now, but it really sucked at the time.
People who have never had a Kipass problem, probably would change any positive opinions they have, once they've had a problem with it, especially if it occurred 1800 miles from home.
 
Supatramp I had a similar problem, after tapping  and waiting around about 20 minutes the bike started. Went on a Poker Run with no problems. Posted what had happened here and Bob alone with others informed me that it sounded more like a power issue than a Kipass issue. About two months later It happened again in shopping center parking lot. I pulled  the battery and cleaned the post, put the battery back in and away I went. 28K miles and 36 months and what I though was Kipass problem simply was not. Just a common problem that has ocurred on motor veicles for as long as they have had a battery.
That said it is posible that that your problem may not have been the switch but the battery.(Not a Kipass failure)
 
kawcon14rider said:
Supatramp I had a similar problem, after tapping  and waiting around about 20 minutes the bike started. Went on a Poker Run with no problems. Posted what had happened here and Bob alone with others informed me that it sounded more like a power issue than a Kipass issue. About two months later It happened again in shopping center parking lot. I pulled  the battery and cleaned the post, put the battery back in and away I went. 28K miles and 36 months and what I though was Kipass problem simply was not. Just a common problem that has ocurred on motor veicles for as long as they have had a battery.
That said it is posible that that your problem may not have been the switch but the battery.(Not a Kipass failure)
Click to expand...
I guess I'll never know if that's what is was, because it was repaired under warranty, since then. I never have touched the battery in the 15 months I've owned the bike and have had no issues with it. Hopefully, whatever the problem was, it won't rear it's ugly head again, especially so far from home ;)
 
4Bikes said:
<snip>
  The poll stays, because I want to see how widespread the Kipass issue really is.  I’m also not buying the notion that a large number of folks gave up on the C14, and are no longer hanging around to place their vote.  I do concede that no poll will perfect, but if we see large numbers of failures, I for one want to know that. <snip>
Click to expand...


OK 4Bikes, since you felt that you had to continue on this path. Consider this link to another thread to be about 40 votes of KIPASS problems. (and there could be a lot more) All for the poll that you felt you had to have!  And to add: None of this was the moderator either. It's all just another forum member!!!!    :-\


http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,31259.30.html
 
I like KiPass, some people don't.
If you don't like it, then buy something else, which Bob did.

What I don't understand is why you all feel you have to defend your positions over and over again.
Bob and a few others hate KiPass.
Most of us are either ambivalent or love it.
NONE OF YOU ARE EVER GOING TO CHANGE THE OTHERS OPINION!
Like everything out there, some of them fail and let people down.
If that is what makes them change their choice of product, then so be it.

I hate ABS/TCS and similar "rider aids" but I'm not going to go on about how it's sh!t and should be banned just because I don't like it. In many circumstances it may save lives and make the riding experience more enjoyable.

In the car I like ABS & TCS & ATOFMA (All The Other F***ing Marketing Acronyms) but I use a car as A to B transport.
I ride a bike because it's fun!

 
Boomer said:
I like KiPass, some people don't.
If you don't like it, then buy something else, which Bob did.

What I don't understand is why you all feel you have to defend your positions over and over again.
Bob and a few others hate KiPass.
Most of us are either ambivalent or love it.
NONE OF YOU ARE EVER GOING TO CHANGE THE OTHERS OPINION!
Like everything out there, some of them fail and let people down.
If that is what makes them change their choice of product, then so

I hate ABS/TCS and similar "rider aids" but I'm not going to go on about how it's sh!t and should be banned just because I don't like it. In many circumstances it may save lives and make the riding experience more enjoyable.

In the car I like ABS & TCS & ATOFMA (All The Other F***ing Marketing Acronyms) but I use a car as A to B transport.
I ride a bike because it's fun!
Click to expand...

Good point Boomer :)
 
I have no intention in changing Bob's or any other current owner's opinion. My intention in "discussing" this issue here is to influence a potential buyers opinion about Kipass. If no supporters of the system speak up about its benefits, then it will be all doom and gloom by the 1%'s who had Kipass issues.
 
I agree MrPepsi, the added security KIPASS gives the bike is worth the small of trouble that it has caused. I also enjoy not having to fumble with a key every time I start the bike, especially in the dark.
To me KIPASS is one of the drawing points of the bike.
 
MrPepsi said:
I have no intention in changing Bob's or any other current owner's opinion. My intention in "discussing" this issue here is to influence a potential buyers opinion about Kipass. If no supporters of the system speak up about its benefits, then it will be all doom and gloom by the 1%'s who had Kipass issues.
Click to expand...


It's never doom and gloom all the time. It normally starts when someone like me makes a sarcastic remark about something posted. Then someone will counter or is in this case, want proof that the system hasn't been 100% perfect, as some would lead folks to belive. Although I am the first to admit (and try to state this in a lot of posts about KIPASS), that KIPASS has had troubles. But the majority of the owners have experinced little or no troubles. My purpose is to try to make folks aware of the posible troubles. Hopefully by reading up on the subject, they will  read enough subjects on KIPASS, to be informed enough to deal with a problem a little better, if one should arise.
But I do get offensive when some of the folks downplay troubles like they were almost non-exsistant. It's one thing to say that some like it and some don't, and there have been some problems (more in the begining). But rarely will these folks say that they  should read up on it to be familar just in case. In a lot of cases, they just say there have been few or almost none. Or for example, this quote right here:
  "If no supporters of the system speak up about its benefits, then it will be all doom and gloom by the 1%'s who had Kipass issues." 
This even after having this poll above the thread (when it was posted) that at the very least is at this moment showing over 12% of the folks having trouble, just on this poll! And that's not including just about everyone of the whole second thread that I wound up quoting with all KIPASS failures. That's why folks like me speak up about KIPASS.
It's not to scare folks off. It's to warn folks that failures can and do exsist. That way folks will get a little more fimilar with what to do, just in case. If it scares off the few who do not already own the bike. Then so be it. I worry more about the folks who do own the bike. Yet may not know anything about the system, it's troubles (past or present), or what to do about it, if god forbid something does happen.
If some of y'all would have it your way. It would be, "I like it". And that's it!    :))
 
My observation is Bob had no comment on the FJR ignition failure, that's odd. I'm neutral on kipass, I don't have a like or dislike for it. But not having to take the key out every time you stop is kinda nice. When it's sitting in a hotel parking lot at night a would be thief might (probaly) think that red blinking light is an alarm though, another plus.

  Cliff  :beerchug:
 
Maybe I should have, but I didn't comment on the FJR ignition failure, because I honestly didn't want possibly bring a thread (that has already turned into an all out KIPASS thread), into anything worse. You had made your comments and I figured that I would leave it stand for what it is, without having to respond. It was in fact something that you recalled happening (since you were there). But since you feel  that past FJR ignition switch problems might have some bearing on KIPASS issues. IMO, it seemed to me that this might only serve to bring this thread down even more by my responding to another motorcycles similar problem. I guess now I have to respond to your buddies FJR troubles. It's mainly because you have now made this most recent comment. So I feel I have to now have no choice but say something in response.
Yes it is well documented that some of the FJR's also had had ignition switch problems. The FJR's problem in itself is a rarity for standard ignitions. But that doesn't change the fact that it is true that some of the FJR's had ignition switch problems. Some of the ignition switches would have the internal wiring become disconnected. If this happened electrical current flow would be stopped, thus either stalling the bike (FJR), or not allowing it to start. This is a well documented problem.
FWIW and IMO, the FJR's ignition switch problem was actually a potentially worse problem than the C14's ignitions most common KIPASS failure (The KIPASS actuator switch sticking). Because in most KIPASS failures, once the rider is made aware of what could happen and how to possibly deal with it the problem, if said problem happened to occur. (K-Rock, unplug/re-connect the grey plug, Brian's quick circuit disconnect)  Then if the KIPASS actuator happened to stick, there was a good chance that a person (who is aware of the problems and possible solution) might be able to re-start the C14 in most instances.
  Where as in the case of the FJR. Yes it's a well known problem that has been mentioned in past KIPASS threads before. Although true, IMO, it has no bearing on KIPASS problems other than attempting to make the point that other bikes do and have had problems as well. Although this is absolutely true with just about every bike (having some sort of problem). I do not see how that changes possible KIPASS problems? Well if folks feel hiding their head in the sand is the solution.  Then fine, ignore the possibility of past or possible KIPASS problems. How that actually helps anybody is beyond me.
I'm not trying to start any trouble here (just an observation). But IMO, here's the difference between us on this C14 forum and the folks on FJR forums. We try to ignore problems by saying things like I haven't had a problem in 30,000 miles. But only making statements like this.  Folks on here offer no information to newer forum members and/or C14 owners (or just prospective owners) on possible KIPASS issues. Folks on here seem to not want the newer owners to know about problems (be it past or present) with KIPASS. Folks on this forum seem to not want newer owner to have the knowledge of what to do in case a problem arises. These folks on our forum are part of the problem. Hiding your head in the sand and saying "I haven't had a problem", doesn't mean the problem doesn't or at a bear minimum, exist. So IMO, our forum members seem to just hang the new owners out to dry (if by chance they do have a KIPASS  problem).
Now with the FJR. The forum members do not try to hide this information. They want folks to know about possible problems that have arose. Allowing folks to be prepared as best as possible, in case an issue happens to arise. And as it seems (IMO), unlike Kawasaki. Yamaha openly addressed the problem and issued a recall on the FJR. The recall was to replace the the effected parts (ignition switch) on bikes, so as to rectify the problem. I'm sure Yamaha didn't want to have to admit to the problem either. But issuing a recall still openly admits there is a problem. This is the difference here. Folks here (our this forum) for some reason want to ignore or hide KIPASS problems (even if they were mainly in the past). Why? I guess you don't want the folks who might not know any of this information, to actually be informed! (just in case)
  So I wasn't trying avoid the comments on the FJR's problem. I just felt that (the FJR problem) was well documented knowledge, that had also been posted in past KIPASS threads. (It's a no win situation for me commenting on this either way) But it really had no bearing on what information C14 owners may want (and have a right) to know about their C14. I personally just want a C14 owner to know what to do in the event that his/her C14's KIPASS might fail in someplace far away from civilization and/or cell service. Maybe someplace like on top of the Blue Ridge Parkway, in a scenic overview. Because this has already happened. And the owner was very grateful that because he read the information on how to start the bike, in a KIPASS thread. He was finally able to get his C14 started, and got home on his C14 that day. Had he just read something like: {"My C14 has 30,000 miles with no KIPASS problems"}. I'm sure that information would have been very assuring and helpful when his C14 wouldn't start!  :p





Just Cliff said:
My observation is Bob had no comment on the FJR ignition failure, that's odd. I'm neutral on kipass, I don't have a like or dislike for it. But not having to take the key out every time you stop is kinda nice. When it's sitting in a hotel parking lot at night a would be thief might (probaly) think that red blinking light is an alarm though, another plus.

  Cliff  :beerchug:
Click to expand...



 
Tremainiac said:
I think Bob's still upset... Just an observation.

:rotflmao:
Click to expand...



Honestly, I am not upset or bitter about my past KIPASS troubles. (maybe just a very, very slight bit)  It's in the past. I did like my C14 and would rather have had it not happen like it did. But (I've said this before) it might have been a blessing in disguise for me. Although I loved my C14. I'm a little vertically challenged. And the C14 is a tall motorcycle. My body's proportions (other than the self inflicted stuff) are probably different than a lot of other folks. So in my case, the FJR actually wound up fitting my body better. I'm not saying that the FJR is a better bike than the C14. It just seems to fit me better. So like I said, it may have been a blessing in disguise.
If I was truly bitter, I might have just left behind any memories. But I really don't see it that way. (even if it may seem that way to some folks, sometimes). I am still here and do try to help folks with questions and answers when I can. My answers may not always be in agreement with other folks. But it's always that way in life. If we always agreed on everything. This would be a boring place.  ;)
 
And as it seems (IMO), unlike Kawasaki. Yamaha openly addressed the problem and issued a recall on the FJR.
Bob Yamaha did not make a volunteer recall on their switch. The recall was ordered by the NHTSA as a safety recall. That means that the problem could occur while the bike was being operated and cause the engine to stall. The result could be injury or death. It has not been determine that Kawasaki problem with KIPASS is a safety issue, therefore no recall. Very seldom will a manufacture make a recall on their own unless the problem effects most of the units involved.
It seems to me that there is a problem with some of the bikes, the # was great enough for Kaw to issue a recall.  :)
 
kawcon14rider said:
And as it seems (IMO), unlike Kawasaki. Yamaha openly addressed the problem and issued a recall on the FJR.
Bob Yamaha did not make a volunteer recall on their switch. The recall was ordered by the NHTSA as a safety recall. That means that the problem could occur while the bike was being operated and cause the engine to stall. The result could be injury or death. It has not been determine that Kawasaki problem with KIPASS is a safety issue, therefore no recall. Very seldom will a manufacture make a recall on their own unless the problem effects most of the units involved.
It seems to me that there is a problem with some of the bikes, the # was great enough for Kaw to issue a recall.  :)
Click to expand...


Hey you could be right it may have been so ordered. I was under the impression that it was voluntary by Yamaha. Although I could be wrong. But either way, as long as it has been addresses! Although the letter from Yamaha to the NHTSA sounded more voluntary than ordered to me. Well at least #7 in the letter does sound that way. But hey I could be wrong. Take a look and see what you think. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. But like I said, I could be wrong on that. But as long as  the problem has been addressed.
http://nhthqnwws111.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Recalls/2009/V/RCDNN-09V002-7020.pdf

And I agree that no safety issue would be imposed for the KIPASS not operating. It really wouldn't make sense. In reality if the bike will not start, it's kind of hard (but I guess not impossible) to get hurt riding it.  ;)


Well maybe if you freeze to death waiting for help!  :))

 
:-* KiPass

FOBinwater.jpg
 
Axxman said:
Thats funny, I didn't know it was waterproof... or wine proof that is :rotflmao:
Click to expand...


Actually it proved not to be wine proof. BDF routinely tests the fob in fluids at COG functions. In Wellsboro, PA. He left it in the wine just a little too long. It did leak after a while and shorted out the battery. And it stunk like stale wine. But IIRC, it went back to work with a new battery. But we were concerned that he might have damaged it. But I think it turned out OK, in the end!  :))
 
Cap'n Bob said:
I sure hope not. Kawasaki hasn't yet given up on this KIPASS debacle. Why do they feel it's necessary to reinvent the wheel? Lets make the bike heavier, more complicated, more expensive, use up valuable storage room, and arguative make it less reliable. All the while still using the key and switch to start the bike!  :))
Now lets go one step farther. Lets make it that you have to be registered to a certain computer to even start the bike. I can imagine the nightmare now of trying to have a bike serviced or trying to sell the bike used. And that's not to mention the possible problems that could come with more unnecessary complexity and technology. All the while when conventional key and switch set ups have been tried and true with little trouble over the years. KIPASS on the other hand?  >:D
Click to expand...


  KIPASS ? Geez , I miss having a kickstarter.... :'(
 
I have it on good opinion that if you soak a KIPASS fob in AMSOIL, a small black hole is created and the whole space-time continuum shifts ever so slightly.
 
Axxman said:
Thats funny, I didn't know it was waterproof... or wine proof that is :rotflmao:
Click to expand...

Brian has painstakingly been running a series of KiPass experiments.... Some that have been documented...

NOV 2010 - water or soda?

1080871068_s54mn-M.jpg



FEB 2011 -In Beer

1199444500_Gnp83-M.jpg


May 2011 - In White Wine

i-pSKxpmn-M.jpg


May 2011 - Near Bob

i-wLBjng3-M.jpg
 
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