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Video link comparison of Chinese generic Cam Chain Tensioner to APE brand. You may be surprised like I was.

S

schzx14923

Member
Member
Hey guys/girls, I intend on installing a manual cam chain tensioner on my 08 Concours 14 (28k miles) for the usual reasons and, because nothing ever goes like I want it to, I ended up with two of them. One is APE and the other is not. So, I made a video comparing the two and thought it might be of interest to others. Of course, it's just my opinion and you'll need to draw your own conclusions (in other words, while I'd like to, I can't take responsibility for any mechanical mishaps on your bike :cool: ). I think this is my first post on this forum so I'm not sure if I can upload the video or if I have to leave a link to the video which I just posted on YouTube. So, bear with me please. Bare with me? I never remember which word to use. I can't attach the file just yet so, here's the YouTube link:

Oh, and I only just now realized I should have video'd it in landscape, not portrait. Sorry!
Steve

Here's a link to the part: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275678718161
 
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Hello Sir. Just watched your video comparing the MCCT's. Let me start by saying I have installed no less than 10 upgraded manual cam chain tensioners in my current and previous motorcycles. To the best of my knowledge, not one failure. All the tensioners were APE racing tensioners except for the custom application on my Gen 1 VMAX. The VMAX tensioners were made in the USA. Several observations from your video: Steel tensile strength is stronger than stainless. The billet aluminum frame is high grade billet. The fit and finish is not near as important as the quality/proven APE product. APE R/D makes these tensioners for extreme service. Top tier drag racing/road racing/track racing is where the tensioners are proven. Can't say if the Chinese product will hold up or not. Would I use it ? NO. This is too important a component to create an experiment with, JMO. Stock tensioners have steel internals with a cast frame. Back to steel again Sir.
 
schzx14923 said:
Hey guys/girls, I intend on installing a manual cam chain tensioner on my 08 Concours 14 (28k miles) for the usual reasons and, because nothing ever goes like I want it to, I ended up with two of them. One is APE and the other is not. So, I made a video comparing the two and thought it might be of interest to others. Of course, it's just my opinion and you'll need to draw your own conclusions (in other words, while I'd like to, I can't take responsibility for any mechanical mishaps on your bike :cool: ). I think this is my first post on this forum so I'm not sure if I can upload the video or if I have to leave a link to the video which I just posted on YouTube. So, bear with me please. Bare with me? I never remember which word to use. I can't attach the file just yet so, here's the YouTube link:

Oh, and I only just now realized I should have video'd it in landscape, not portrait. Sorry!
Steve

Here's a link to the part: https://www.ebay.com/itm/275678718161
Click to expand...
Hi Steve, first I want to say really appreciate the Review of the eBay tensioner, really appears nice compared to the APE!
Let me explain some differences as what might appear cheap to you and others, but is really beneficial to racers.

The APE series of adjusters were built by a Drag Racer and tuner for Drag Racers and tuners.

That pinned nut at the end of the steel machined bolt is put there so that we can adjust by feel with our fingers, any tool tends to remove any kind of feeling of contact of the guide and chain.

Going to share our typical technique for adjusting the cam chain tension by feel. Screw the tensioner bolt in with fingers until you feel it stop against the cam chain. You may feel one or two subtle points of resistance but this is only the adjuster bolt contacting the guide and the guide springing forward.
You will feel a definite resistance when the cam chain is touched. Do not tighten the adjuster bolt against the cam chain at all, just stop at the point where resistance is felt.

Manually rotate the engine clockwise only
While using your fingers to tighten the APE tensioner bolt as additional slack is felt.
Me personally like to tighten the bolt a half a turn or 180 degrees past contact, the back it out 1/4 of a turn and lock it up call it done.

Not sure of your actual mileage on your bike but ZX14 and Concours 14 stretch timing chains, they use the same part number! If it were me I would be changing it!

The reason for the steel bolt is they are softer and will not shear or snap off in a nitrous back fire!
We keep stainless away from race engines especially exhaust valves, they have a nasty habit of losing there heads lol šŸ˜‚
Hope this clears some thoughts up

Jeff
 
Hey guys, one of the first things he says is;
I made a video comparing the two and thought it might be of interest to others.
Of course, it's just my opinion and you'll need to draw your own conclusions.
Steve did just that, and I thank him for taking the time to make a video showing the difference in the 2 designs.

One of the great things about this Forum is our ability to share ideas thru discussion.
Sooooo, let's discuss the difference in the designs.

Continuing the discussion; I also like the Chinese design. I can see that it was very well thought out.
* We don't actually know if the APE bolt is Stainless or not.
ie; Some grades of Stainless Steel are magnetic. (so a magnet does no prove that the bolt is Carbon Steel)
** Stainless Steel is manufactured in many Grade's. (many of those grades have a higher Tensile Strength/etc than Carbon Steel)
*** The longer/straight shaft of the Chinese design has less tolerance than the Coarse Thread design of the APE so it will move less and the smooth surface gives the O-rings a better seal area.
**** The straight design offers a greater surface area {which prevents side movement} than the coarse threads of the APE.
***** It would be very EZ to install a self-locking nut at the top of the thread's. (to give a better feel during adjustment)
****** The fine thread would offer more precise adjustment than a coarse thread. (more threads per inch)
******* It would be better if the housing was anodized RED. (as RED is the best color)

Like Steve, I'm posting my opinion and others can choose what they like best.

Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
(Let the Flames begin..)
 
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sean97123638 said:
Hello Sir. Just watched your video comparing the MCCT's. Let me start by saying I have installed no less than 10 upgraded manual cam chain tensioners in my current and previous motorcycles. To the best of my knowledge, not one failure. All the tensioners were APE racing tensioners except for the custom application on my Gen 1 VMAX. The VMAX tensioners were made in the USA. Several observations from your video: Steel tensile strength is stronger than stainless. The billet aluminum frame is high grade billet. The fit and finish is not near as important as the quality/proven APE product. APE R/D makes these tensioners for extreme service. Top tier drag racing/road racing/track racing is where the tensioners are proven. Can't say if the Chinese product will hold up or not. Would I use it ? NO. This is too important a component to create an experiment with, JMO. Stock tensioners have steel internals with a cast frame. Back to steel again Sir.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for your feedback.
 
Color-me-GONE said:
Hi Steve, first I want to say really appreciate the Review of the eBay tensioner, really appears nice compared to the APE!
Let me explain some differences as what might appear cheap to you and others, but is really beneficial to racers.

The APE series of adjusters were built by a Drag Racer and tuner for Drag Racers and tuners.

That pinned nut at the end of the steel machined bolt is put there so that we can adjust by feel with our fingers, any tool tends to remove any kind of feeling of contact of the guide and chain.

Going to share our typical technique for adjusting the cam chain tension by feel. Screw the tensioner bolt in with fingers until you feel it stop against the cam chain. You may feel one or two subtle points of resistance but this is only the adjuster bolt contacting the guide and the guide springing forward.
You will feel a definite resistance when the cam chain is touched. Do not tighten the adjuster bolt against the cam chain at all, just stop at the point where resistance is felt.

Manually rotate the engine clockwise only
While using your fingers to tighten the APE tensioner bolt as additional slack is felt.
Me personally like to tighten the bolt a half a turn or 180 degrees past contact, the back it out 1/4 of a turn and lock it up call it done.

Not sure of your actual mileage on your bike but ZX14 and Concours 14 stretch timing chains, they use the same part number! If it were me I would be changing it!

The reason for the steel bolt is they are softer and will not shear or snap off in a nitrous back fire!
We keep stainless away from race engines especially exhaust valves, they have a nasty habit of losing there heads lol šŸ˜‚
Hope this clears some thoughts up

Jeff
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for the feedback and tips.
 
connie_rider said:
Hey guys, one of the first things he says is;
I made a video comparing the two and thought it might be of interest to others.
Of course, it's just my opinion and you'll need to draw your own conclusions.
Steve did just that, and I thank him for taking the time to make a video showing the difference in the 2 designs.

One of the great things about this Forum is our ability to share ideas thru discussion.
Sooooo, let's discuss the difference in the designs.

Continuing the discussion; I also like the Chinese design. I can see that it was very well thought out.
* We don't actually know if the APE bolt is Stainless or not.
ie; Some grades of Stainless Steel are magnetic. (so a magnet does no prove that the bolt is Carbon Steel)
** Stainless Steel is manufactured in many Grade's. (many of those grades have a higher Tensile Strength/etc than Carbon Steel)
*** The longer/straight shaft of the Chinese design has less tolerance than the Coarse Thread design of the APE so it will move less and the smooth surface gives the O-rings a better seal area.
**** The straight design offers a greater surface area {which prevents side movement} than the coarse threads of the APE.
***** It would be very EZ to install a self-locking nut at the top of the thread's. (to give a better feel during adjustment)
****** The fine thread would offer more precise adjustment than a coarse thread. (more threads per inch)
******* It would be better if the housing was anodized RED. (as RED is the best color)

Like Steve, I'm posting my opinion and others can choose what they like best.

Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
(Let the Flames begin..)
Click to expand...
Thank you Ted. I appreciate the feedback. I will consider painting it red. šŸ˜€
 
connie_rider said:
Hey guys, one of the first things he says is;
I made a video comparing the two and thought it might be of interest to others.
Of course, it's just my opinion and you'll need to draw your own conclusions.
Steve did just that, and I thank him for taking the time to make a video showing the difference in the 2 designs.

One of the great things about this Forum is our ability to share ideas thru discussion.
Sooooo, let's discuss the difference in the designs.

Continuing the discussion; I also like the Chinese design. I can see that it was very well thought out.
* We don't actually know if the APE bolt is Stainless or not.
ie; Some grades of Stainless Steel are magnetic. (so a magnet does no prove that the bolt is Carbon Steel)
** Stainless Steel is manufactured in many Grade's. (many of those grades have a higher Tensile Strength/etc than Carbon Steel)
*** The longer/straight shaft of the Chinese design has less tolerance than the Coarse Thread design of the APE so it will move less and the smooth surface gives the O-rings a better seal area.
**** The straight design offers a greater surface area {which prevents side movement} than the coarse threads of the APE.
***** It would be very EZ to install a self-locking nut at the top of the thread's. (to give a better feel during adjustment)
****** The fine thread would offer more precise adjustment than a coarse thread. (more threads per inch)
******* It would be better if the housing was anodized RED. (as RED is the best color)

Like Steve, I'm posting my opinion and others can choose what they like best.

Ride safe, Ted <evil grin>
(Let the Flames begin..)
Click to expand...
To be honest, Ted, was sitting here debating if I wanted to dive deeper, the reality is YES if it saves one person from causing damage I will jump back in.

Steve our host of the review needs to grab calipers or a Mic and measure the round machined area that slips into the head the part referring to is where the sealing o-ring is, and compare the diameter to the OEM and the APE. One thing to point out is APE does not list a part for the ZG Engine Concours, ( The ZG engine uses a Gasket for sealing not an O-ring, and would end up slightly looser in the head, and could work with an O-ring.

That part that slides into the Cylinder head again where the O-ring mounting area seems short and with the O-ring taking up the Gap inside the housing there is the potential for some rocking especially at high RPMs when rolling off the throttle and the cam chain tries to climb the sprocket.

APE and a Few other American Brands have made the PRO Tensioner for the last fifteen years and look very similar to the chimise- in fact, the design of the guts looks exact.
It is made in America, Fact my friend's Machine shop in Ohio does the machine work. here is the link showing the Classic Tensioners we use in Grudge racing but below are the PRO Tensioners. https://ape-store.com/shopsite/page6.html

You mentioned you like the fact that it has fine threads that offer more precise adjustment and more strength, really is not necessary for cam chain adjustment it is not adjusted in thousands of an inch, although it also offers tighter thread pitch will aid with not coming loose due to Vibration since no lock nut, fine thread also requires less tapping torque during manufacturing, so might not tear up the aluminum formula that's known to be pressed powder.

The main reason for the course thread In applications where the length of the thread engagement is short, coarse threads are preferable due to their higher strength and resistance to stripping, especially when used in Aluminum!

Coarse threads have a greater height along with, a larger volume of material between each lining compared to their fine-threaded bolts. That extra height is around 33% for coarse threads, meaning there's considerably more material to resist stripping or pushing out of that aluminum housing under extreme pressure, like when you need it most, again rolling off the throttle and the chain whipping against the guide.

All in all, I have no stock in APE, but we do use their parts and would agree with this comparison if APE made a specific part for the 2008 and newer CONCOURS they never did. and it should be compared to the Stock OEM





1721411514771.jpeg



Going to stop here and shop around and in Typical Chinese business, they turn out millions of the same part, basically universal as long as the mounting span comes close. So found it in many colors and lower price.

Here is this tensioner offered on ALIEXPRESS fitting everything from Dirt Bikes to UTV, The devil is in the Details or should I say the design and choice of materials.

 
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Color-me-GONE said:
To be honest, Ted, was sitting here debating if I wanted to dive deeper, the reality is YES if it saves one person from causing damage I will jump back in.

Steve our host of the review needs to grab calipers or a Mic and measure the round machined area that slips into the head the part referring to is where the sealing o-ring is, and compare the diameter to the OEM and the APE. One thing to point out is APE does not list a part for the ZG Engine Concours, ( The ZG engine uses a Gasket for sealing not an O-ring, and would end up slightly looser in the head, and could work with an O-ring.

That part that slides into the Cylinder head again where the O-ring mounting area seems short and with the O-ring taking up the Gap inside the housing there is the potential for some rocking especially at high RPMs when rolling off the throttle and the cam chain tries to climb the sprocket.

APE and a Few other American Brands have made the PRO Tensioner for the last fifteen years and look very similar to the chimise- in fact, the design of the guts looks exact.
It is made in America, Fact my friend's Machine shop in Ohio does the machine work. here is the link showing the Classic Tensioners we use in Grudge racing but below are the PRO Tensioners. https://ape-store.com/shopsite/page6.html

You mentioned you like the fact that it has fine threads that offer more precise adjustment and more strength, really is not necessary for cam chain adjustment it is not adjusted in thousands of an inch, although it also offers tighter thread pitch will aid with not coming loose due to Vibration since no lock nut, fine thread also requires less tapping torque during manufacturing, so might not tear up the aluminum formula that's known to be pressed powder.

The main reason for the course thread In applications where the length of the thread engagement is short, coarse threads are preferable due to their higher strength and resistance to stripping, especially when used in Aluminum!

Coarse threads have a greater height along with, a larger volume of material between each lining compared to their fine-threaded bolts. That extra height is around 33% for coarse threads, meaning there's considerably more material to resist stripping or pushing out of that aluminum housing under extreme pressure, like when you need it most, again rolling off the throttle and the chain whipping against the guide.

All in all, I have no stock in APE, but we do use their parts and would agree with this comparison if APE made a specific part for the 2008 and newer CONCOURS they never did. and it should be compared to the Stock OEM





View attachment 39510



Going to stop here and shop around and in Typical Chinese business, they turn out millions of the same part, basically universal as long as the mounting span comes close. So found it in many colors and lower price.

Here is this tensioner offered on ALIEXPRESS fitting everything from Dirt Bikes to UTV, The devil is in the Details or should I say the design and choice of materials.

Click to expand...
Thanks for all the feedback. I respect that we all have our own opinions and we all have our own levels of experience, so I truly appreciate everyone's opinions and feedback. As a 61 year old man who has turned wrenches all my life, professionally for a time, I am confident in my own decision (and take responsibility for the bad ones because if I don't, my wife is happy to point them out to me), but I totally understand each of you on this site likely has incredible experience and insight. So, I truly do appreciate the feedback, no lie. Since you asked me to, I'm providing the info you asked for by taking some measurements. I used my micrometer for one critical measurement and a Harbor Freight vernier caliper for the rest. I took more than you asked for since some might wonder of other measurements. Since I'm not building anything here, please allow for a reasonable amount of measurement error due to shaky hands, holding a camera, etc. The only measurement not pictured is the measurement I took of the clearance between the largest part of the shaft which travels within the cylinder, and the cylinder itself. This measured to be 5 thousandths of an inch. Here's pics of the rest. Let's go have a beer now.
 

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schzx14923 said:
Thanks for all the feedback. I respect that we all have our own opinions and we all have our own levels of experience, so I truly appreciate everyone's opinions and feedback. As a 61 year old man who has turned wrenches all my life, professionally for a time, I am confident in my own decision (and take responsibility for the bad ones because if I don't, my wife is happy to point them out to me), but I totally understand each of you on this site likely has incredible experience and insight. So, I truly do appreciate the feedback, no lie. Since you asked me to, I'm providing the info you asked for by taking some measurements. I used my micrometer for one critical measurement and a Harbor Freight vernier caliper for the rest. I took more than you asked for since some might wonder of other measurements. Since I'm not building anything here, please allow for a reasonable amount of measurement error due to shaky hands, holding a camera, etc. The only measurement not pictured is the measurement I took of the clearance between the largest part of the shaft which travels within the cylinder, and the cylinder itself. This measured to be 5 thousandths of an inch. Here's pics of the rest. Let's go have a beer now.
Click to expand...
Much Respect āœŠ
Jeff
 
Good discussion.
I got into this because I like the technical discussions on the Forum. I feel that everyone learns from them.
Wish there were more.

As far as which is best, I think we're splitting hairs.
We all have an opinion about which is best. (and reasons that support that opinion)
As I sed earlier, I feel that the Chinese version is well thought out, but I think that they're both a good product.

NOTE: I don't have a mechanical Tensioner on mine and have never had one on any of my bikes.
I think the manufacturers installed automatic/hydraulic tensioners for several reasons.
They allow the tensioner to adjust as the chain wears, they don't require periodic adjustments, and the oil/spring pressure maintains a more constant pressure as the chain moves.

I attached the video's below.
They follow my reasoning for keeping the OEM/hydraulic tensioners.


The second video gives a good explanation about how the OEM Adjuster works. (starting at about the 35 minute mark)


Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:
Thought the Videos were entertaining until he brought up that the reason for needing the hydraulic cam chain tensioner could be the VVT plays a negative role, yes that 32-year-old VVT system from a car that Kawasaki bought rights from Mitsubishis, it is always the VVT with this Machine LOL.

There was never anything wrong EVER with using Hydraulic chain tensioners for 99.8 percent of Motorcycles and the riders, it is more of an internet folklore that someone heard a disaster story, or that the Rattle at start-up is a failure when in fact is a normal thing caused by bleed down, lack of usage! maybe even worn oil with the viscosity of cold coffee.

Before AUTO-CCT Motorcycles needed periodic maintenance, tinkering, cleaning, and greasing, some even needed a very rigid starting sequence that if not followed could physically harm you if your Magneto or ignition timer was not retarded. Or British bikes with SU or Amal Carburetors, required you to reach down and tickle ( Prime ) raw fuel into the intake on the left and right side if it was Dual Carbs, canā€™t imagine some people getting fuel on their fingers today the law suites cause of imaginary discoloration of skin and numbing LOL

For the Japanese bike crowd, you had to set your manual cam chain tensioner what seemed like every few thousand miles.

What they noticed is no one even adjusted the valves or paid attention to cam chain noise until it was too late, if they could only make motorcycles less maintenance intensive they could sell more and would not have to cover any good-will warranty claims and keep the brand from being smeared.

Manual Cam chain tensioners have a place in the Drag Racing scene & Performance Street Bikes, we run extremely high valve spring pressures and very aggressive cam ramp profiles along with sometimes power adders, I run manual tensioners for the peace of mind on our engines, Nitrous backfires have a bad habit of snapping the thin like a paper-clip style lock ( Was not meant for trying to hold that sudden counterclockwise ) when we roll off the throttle at eleven thousand RPM through the traps and a solenoid delayed closing or leaked nitrous, it can be a big mess costing thousands of dollars or even death.

But on a Cross-country touring bikeā€¦ā€¦ā€¦ā€¦ā€¦ā€¦Please, really?

Hey guys let's find some shade here in Death Valley my chain tensioner is making noise and need to pull my right-side fairing to gain access anyone have Allen sockets I can borrow?

The other issue is the installer, how many bikes we rebuild cause of improper installation, tightening the adjuster until the chain saws through the guide sending plastic into the oil system plugging the oil filter into a 100 percent by-pass, The First thing to go is the oil pump then main bearings and crank.
 
Good write up Jeff. I suppose in my case, hanging around a hotrod motorcycle shop for the last thirty-five years and listening to horror stories, led me down the path of using and upgrading MCCT's in my previous and current motorcycles. As you stated, you run MCCT's for a peace of mind in VERY expensive performance motors. Another point I would like to make in regard to the use of a MCCT in the ZG platform, is the flashing/tuning of the motor, and the raising of the stock rev limiter. My rev limiter is raised 500 rpm within the flash. I believe this would be the point of possible failure of the stock tensioner after repeated rev limiter runs. Another words, a higher possibility of failure due to extreme use. I look at the MCCT as a cheap insurance policy, better than no policy. Another good point you made regarding the MCCT, is the improper installation. You have to adjust the tensioner, so you have a small bit of "slack" in the chain. Too tight=broken parts....Sean
 
Saw another Cam Tensioner discussion and pulled up this old discussion.
While reading thru. it, I had an idea. šŸ’”

Before ya say it; o_O
,,,,,,,,,,,,"Watch out World",,, Ted had a thought.


If anybody is wondering;
The idea is;
,,,,,,,,,,,,, If a person was to modify the stock OEM Tensioner to be a Semi-mechanical tensioner, they would have the best of both worlds.

A real* Machinist could make/add an adjuster that is similar to a mechanical tensioner. *(David, are you reading this?)
When installed it could be adjusted so that it reduces the timing chain slack "but" does "not" take up all the timing chain slack.
(ie; Use it to limit the amount of movement)

If my idea works;
* It would limit the amount of slack {but not put undue pressure on the chain and would not require frequent adjustment}
** The hydraulics would allow the OEM Tensioner to work as is supposed to,
BUT (because the mechanical adjustment reduces the amount of movement) it would operate without the rattle.
*** As the components wear, the hydraulics would make up for chain stretch etc.

Ride safe, Ted


1735926056110.png
If it works;
 
Last edited:
connie_rider said:
When installed it could be adjusted so that it reduces the timing chain slack "but" does "not" take up all the timing chain slack.
(ie; Use it to limit the amount of movement)
Click to expand...
I understand what you're trying to accomplish but it's not necessary. The ratcheting mechanism on the oem unit limits how far it can back off when not pressurized. I will say that I used the Ape unit on my first 08 for 125k miles with no problems. My new to me 08 and 11 have oem tensioners that rattle but work just fine. The rattle comes from the chain making the moveable guide slap again the tensioner until pressurized.. There is no contact of chain to aluminum.

On a side note, way back in the day I did exactly what you're talking about as an alternative to buying a Fancy purpose built one. Didn't pay any attention to plugging the port. 1990 Gsxr oil cooled, methanol burner.
 
I agree. Just a thought............
I've had the OEM on all my Connies with no problems.
I was just an idea for those that worry about the slapping.
Kinda the best of both designs.

Looking at the video, it appears the OEM Tensioner allows about 1/4" of movement.
Installing an adjustable stop would limit that amount of movement quite a bit, and the hydraulics would still function.

Ride safe, Ted
 

Here is one of the video's.
Look at the 7:45 or so minute mark to see how far the OEM Tensioner can move.

Ride safe, Ted
 
Hmmm, guess I should have watched the video prior. I didn't realize it moved that far. And for what reason? a manual cut doesn't back off at all, so it doesn't need to move that much. Your solution would probably work, but I wonder about a heavier spring pushing the plunger back out. I might check in to that.
 
I'm not suggesting that you build one of these.
The semi adjustable portion idea could be looked into if someone really wanted to.
Just throwing out an idea for discussion. (You know how I like to discuss idea's)
It's gonna get cold soon....

Some people are going to a mechanical, but Kawasaki made the Tensioner "as it is" for a reason.
(It works fine but rattles at start up).

Installing a mechanical tensioner works, but I suspect many don't do the install correctly and it could damage things if installed incorrectly.
(For instance, by putting too much pressure on the cam chain or follower)

I have a question.
Is a mechanical Tensioner installed on a cold engine or a hot engine?
Reason for the question is the chain grows in length when it heats up.

Here is a test he did. The first 30 minutes or so are the fixture build.
Worth a look if anyone is interested.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
I have a question.
Is a mechanical Tensioner installed on a cold engine or a hot engine?
Reason for the question is the chain grows in length when it heats up.
Click to expand...
I have installed mine cold and did the 1/4 turn backoff from full tight. I believe as everything heats up and the chain gets longer, the deck height also grows, keeping everything in unison. Again, I've had the manual cct for well over 100k miles with no ill effects.

I believe the video guy is barking up the wrong tree by trying to attribute the need for a hydraulic cct to the vvt system. The cam advance/retard function is controlled in the ecu by throttle position and rpm. There is no instantaneous slamming of the cam position. Also when the vvt actuates, its moving the cam, not the sprocket. The actuator body is nothing more than a cam sprocket and turns consistently with the chain.

I am intrigued enough to take one apart and possibly source a heavier spring. Or more likely put a spacer under the spring to see if the rattle will be reduced.
connie_rider said:
It's gonna get cold soon
Click to expand...
It's cold already! Going down to low teens at night for a week and never go above freezing. Makes it hard to heat the shop.
 
Here's a mathematical argument against the video.
*9000RPM=4500 cam rpm=75 rp/second=27,000 degrees of rotation per second. 5 seconds would be 135,000 degrees of rotation.
* In that same 5 seconds like in a 3rd get roll-on, from 2000rpm upto 9000rpm, the cam will have moved its full 24 degrees of advance (actually does this gradually by 6/6500rpm stock).(flashed is quicker)
*24/135,000 doesn't have any effect on shocking the chain.
That's 5 degrees of movement per 27,000 degrees of rotation.

I had to get that out, couldn't concentrate on football. Comments or corrections are welcome. Ted you got your wish for a discussion.
 
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I follow you on both expanding.
Was trying to understand how a mechanical is installed.
** Did not know about the 1/4 turn backoff.

On the mathematics, I follow you there and also think he's on the wrong path with his idea.

On the modification;
I think reducing the amount of possible movement would be easier than changing to a stiffer spring.
ie; We have no idea how much stiffer the spring would need to be.

NOTE: The adjuster could be built to pre-load the spring rather than to adjust movement. {??}

One issue I see if in the photo's of the OEM Tensioner, there appears to be a pressed in cap at the top?
ie; I have no idea how it is constructed.

Ride safe, Ted
 
There's a steel spring seat in the bottom that you wouldn't want to drill through to add a screw. I believe a spacer would basically do the same thing except there wouldn't be solid stop. But with a stiff enough spring, or thick enough spacer, you could get close to solid if that's your goal. But a spacer seems very simple and easy to me.
 

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I agree that a spacer would be simple and EZ.
My worry is it's not adjustable, and how would we know how long of spacer (or how stiff of spring) to use.

Looking at the photo's I can see that Kawasaki built an intricate Chain Tensioner.
Modifying anything would be done without knowing why they made it that intricate.

That doesn't stop us from thinking about it, (evil grin) but not understanding why they built it this way, certainly makes it a more delicate mod.

Ride safe, Ted
 
connie_rider said:
I agree that a spacer would be simple and EZ.
My worry is it's not adjustable, and how would we know how long of spacer (or how stiff of spring) to use.
Click to expand...
Good discussion.

While it is possible to measure spring height and pressure at different shaft extensions. I believe an educated guess will work. We know that when new there is very little rattle. When the shaft is extended by maybe half the travel, the rattle becomes much worse. So just by looking and feeling the spring pressure at different extensions, I'll take an educated guess that .25" would be a good start.
connie_rider said:
Looking at the photo's I can see that Kawasaki built an intricate Chain Tensioner.
Modifying anything would be done without knowing why they made it that intricate.
Click to expand...
I agree. The only argument against the oem is than a manual cct works just find. So the intricacies are lost with no negative effects.
connie_rider said:
That doesn't stop us from thinking about it, (evil grin) but not understanding why they built it this way, certainly makes it a more delicate mod.
Click to expand...
Yep, fun to think about things like this.

What do you think of my WAG method?
 
Looking at the OEM design, there are 2 springs. Which would you replace?

I like the WAG idea as a starting point. Would give you a good idea of force you might need.
Your swag gives me an idea that might work for your spring theory.
** If you could measure the length/force, it might be easier to buy several springs in increasing strengths.
You could change springs to see which works best. Would be a quick way to see the effect.

The problem with testing that is; it only makes noise at start up when it's cold (oil has drained from the Tensioner).

I still think an adjuster would work.
It could be built so that it works as an adjustable stop that limits the plunger movement but doesn't effect spring pressure.
or, it could be built so that it works as an adjustable spacer that does affect the spring pressure but doesn't limit plunger movement.

For thought;
The cause of the rattle is that oil leaks from the Tensioner over time. (The engine rattles until the Tensioner is refilled with oil)
So; Why not just add a tiny O'ring to the plunger to prevent that oil loss?

Ride safe, Ted
 
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