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2004 C10 smoking heavily under acceleration

E

eburr

Tricycle
Guys, I bought a particularly nice 04' Concours this weekend with 38K miles, but it can't be ridden due to excessive exhaust smoke. Here are some particulars, and maybe you can offer some ideas? Otherwise I will be breaking it for parts.


-bike looks well cared for and exceptionally maintained for year
-bike starts quickly and easily on choke when cold
-idles well off choke after about a minute
-might stand a good valve adjust
-oil drained and examined. Only 2 qts came out (inc filter) but it looked pretty clean. No particulates.
-refilled with the proper grade of dino oil and filter
-removed, examined and reinstalled cam tensioner (small spring was crooked)
-started....might be a little quieter now
-no real smoke at idle
-when revved and warm, it smokes profusely
-took it for a 1/2 mile spin. Runs generally OK, but the plume behind me every time I accelerated was massive
-back into the garage, oil dripping from exhaust unions

Regardless of how nice, I know an 04' C10 isn't worth too much, and certainly not worth rebuilding the engine as far as my time and money are concerned. Does anyone here have experience or insight as to what may be causing the oil smoking? Something cheaper and easier than a dropped valve (remember-upper end noise) or possibly rings? What does it sound like to you?

Thank you!


         


 
 
  I have to ask. Did you remove 2 drain plugs from the crank case? If not you still had some oil left in the crank case. If you refilled with the recommend amount of oil you probably over filled the crank case. Put the bike on the center stand and fire up the bike until the cooling fan comes on. Shut down and leave it set for a half hour or so. Check the sight glass. It should show oil 2/3 on the sight glass.


  I would suggest you drain the oil from BOTH drain plugs and see of you have more than 3 quarts in the crank case.
 
As he said...Did you drain oil from BOTH drain plugs and filter?



My window looks full at 2.5qts. I ignore my window. It's wrong.
 
I've only had one experience with massive amounts of smoke and oil coming out of the exhaust.  1998 Dodge neon with a broken piston ring.  There are plenty of people that will comment later that have much more technical knowledge/experience than I.  A replacement head from ebay wouldn't cost much if it's a problem in the head.  Rings wouldn't be that big a deal as long as there isn't a bunch of internal damage.  Much of the decision whether or not to fix, depends on if you can do this yourself.  A shop would probably rape you or just turn down the job.  Good luck!  Others will chime in soon I"m sure.
 
Mettler1 said:
  I have to ask. Did you remove 2 drain plugs from the crank case? If not you still had some oil left in the crank case. If you refilled with the recommend amount of oil you probably over filled the crank case. Put the bike on the center stand and fire up the bike until the cooling fan comes on. Shut down and leave it set for a half hour or so. Check the sight glass. It should show oil 2/3 on the sight glass.


  I would suggest you drain the oil from BOTH drain plugs and see of you have more than 3 quarts in the crank case.
Click to expand...
Good catch!
 
Why would you ever buy a bike with so much engine smoke unless it was 250 bucks and you wanted it as a project from the getgo?  :-[ :-[
 
here ya go
 

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DC Concours said:
Why would you ever buy a bike with so much engine smoke unless it was 250 bucks and you wanted it as a project from the getgo?  :-[ :-[
Click to expand...

I've bought lots of "projects" (mostly snowmobiles, Great White North area) that turn out to be parts machines and some that were easy fixes. Made decent cash on some. Depending on what he paid for it (his own business), in good condition the sum of just the plastics could well be worth more than the price of admission. Winter is coming. Not such a bad time for a fix or parts project if you have the time/space/interest.
 
DC Concours said:
Why would you ever buy a bike with so much engine smoke unless it was 250 bucks and you wanted it as a project from the getgo?  :-[ :-[
Click to expand...


  I don't think it smoked until he did the oil change. I'm just guessing he overfilled because he only removed 1 drain plug and still had oil in the crankcase when he refilled with 3 Qts  of oil. There was probably another qt still in the crankcase for a total of 4 qts. Too much oil!!
 
Thanks for the input so far. Here is a little more info:

1.) I removed both the main drain plug and oil filter plug/shaft (and removed the oil filter)
2.) 2 quarts came out of the main plug, and about four tablespoons out of the oil filter plug/shaft area
3.) If I missed another plug and retained a bunch of oil, please let me know! Over-filling would sure be an easy and welcome solution.
4.) Since I only put 3 quarts back in with a filter change, I assumed that I under-filled it slightly, but haven't actually placed it yet back on the center stand to re-check the sight glass level after running it.
4.) Yes, the bike smoked and was loading oil into the exhaust when I bought it, even though the oil was below the minimum in the sight glass. Yes-I bought it this way, as;
5.) I buy, service and sell several bikes every year, have a workshop, tools, a lift and lots of space to work. 
6.) What I paid for this bike was reflective of the unit's value assembled, but with a bad motor, so I was willing to take the risk. Broken down and sold as "parts", it is actually worth about twice to three times what I paid for it, but that is obviously a (much) more labor intensive process, but one I have done several times.
7.) The bike is so sweet looking, low miles and in such excellent condition otherwise it seems kind of criminal to break it for parts now. Excellent recent repaint to original color, new tires, excellent wheels, perfect seat, perfect exhaust, excellent bags, great forks, dry stored, etc.

Just to be certain I didn't over-fill, I will check the sight glass on the center stand, but did I somehow miss a drain plug? I found and removed the  main and the filter plugs only. Not my first rodeo (or Connie for that matter), but admit that I work on so many that I may have missed something. Keep me honest!

   
 
Oh, and the smoke is definitely white/blue oil smoke. You can smell the oil. And the exhaust is loaded with oil and dripping at the exhaust unions. Not ambiguous at all. It is blowing oil, not coolant or gas. Coolant appears at the proper level too.
 
There are 2 drain bolts AND the filter housing that you need to drain from.

Overfilling is a common mistake for new owners. You might have a good bike if that is the only issue and it didn't do any damage.
 
"I see" says the blind man. Two plugs plus a filter shaft. Will check now for over-fill. As a matter of fact, I will drain all and start over!
 
If it is this easy I will truly be a lucky man! I am not overly optimistic though, as the sight glass had no oil in it when I began the process, and it still smoked like hell then.


 
  Hate to think a C10 is broken with that low of milage :'(  Hope it turns out good. Sounds like you think it may be a bad engine. Hope not.
 
Jus thinking out loud.
Pull the air filter, is the air filter oil saturated? Oil puddling inside. Of course if there is excessive oil in the airbox, it usually is evident on the outside, bottom left (side-stand side) on the airbox.
Check the valves, they usually don't fully seat in on the C10's 'til about 30 - 40k (probably not relevant with exhaust oil smoke though), no previous maintenance records who knows where they are at?
That low miles, that old, maybe a valve seal  or 2 dried out or gummed up piston rings?  Do a leak down check.
What state are the molded rubber gaskets in the cam cover, cam cover gasket and plug well gaskets?
Oh, oh yeah. Do the piston rod length check, motor midda been hydrolocked in the past?  That right there will seal the deal with the motor if it fails that.

I've seen some pretty neglected C10's with engines in fine shape, but most were high mileage, been run alot.
Knee jerk reaction, I'm thinking valve seals,,,,,but, until you tear into it. 
Be interested to hear what the culprit is.

Good luck
 
For the record Ive never been able to see anything in the sight glass
Ive just gone with 3 qts and a filter every 3 k
 
for the record - all my oil changes have been done not with a measured amount of oil but with the topping of the oil to just about the top line of the sight glass(after starting/ensuring oil had entered the system/filter).

never had any issue with the sight glass method - and quite frankly would trust it more than a measurement method.

Cal
 
Checking the level flat on my lift just now, I was 3/4 up on the sight glass, which I have no reason to distrust. After looking at "who me's" image above, he is also including the oil cooler line as a drain point. After draining again, I took that loose too, and got virtually less than a teaspoon more out. After refilling exactly 3 quarts, starting and let run, I am getting drips of oil again from the exhaust and smoke on acceleration. Engine doesn't sound bad actually. Periodic ping coming from alternator end cap. No oil in the air filter area. Could the alternator have anything to do with anything? It is the only thing that sounds a little too noisy IMHO. 

 
Bikerman said:
Checking the level flat on my lift just now, I was 3/4 up on the sight glass, which I have no reason to distrust. After looking at "who me's" image above, he is also including the oil cooler line as a drain point. After draining again, I took that loose too, and got virtually less than a teaspoon more out. After refilling exactly 3 quarts, starting and let run, I am getting drips of oil again from the exhaust and smoke on acceleration. Engine doesn't sound bad actually. Periodic ping coming from alternator end cap. No oil in the air filter area. Could the alternator have anything to do with anything? It is the only thing that sounds a little too noisy IMHO.
Click to expand...
Trust us when we tell you that there really are two drain plugs.  Not counting the oil cooler line.
 
Who me's picture is to be believed. Weird, but there ARE two plugs and after you ride and park, the darned oil will drain all the way out of sight. GONE! (but not really).
 
well, if you pulled both oil drain plugs, and the filter also, HOW MUCH oil actually came out? did you measure it?
after reinstalling it all, and adding the correct oil amount, and insuring to check the airbox and wipe it out also, it's time to take one more step....
You messed with the camchain tensioner, so go to the missing part.
Remove the valve cover, and INSPCT / AND ADJUST the valve clearances.. at that time, examine the gasket, and all of the 'oil drain back holes' from the valve area... I suspect someone may have gotten a bit "GOOPY' and goobered silicone sealer around the gasket sealing the cover, and it migrated, blocking the drain holes, and holding an abundance of 'spare' oil pooled there... sitting on the valves and seals...
and working it's way in from there..

not the first time I've seen that Rodeo...
 
Yep, I found that when looking at the service manual today. Still wondering about over-fill though, by prior owner especially. If the exhaust system is loaded with oil, it will be hard to tell whether the issue is from the past or present, and trust me, there was and is a lot of oil in the exhaust. Once again, the sight glass on center stand is sitting at 3/4 full.

My next step is to yet again drain all drain points (the (2) 17mm drain plugs, the oil filter shaft and the 14mm oil cooler line.... drain everything out), pull the exhaust system from the headers back and power wash them clean inside (they are full of oil), re-start with only 3 qts total re-fill, but with no exhaust past the headers to see if I am getting oil (blow-by) coming out of the headers. If no more oil is blowing out, it was caused by the prior owner's over-fill (a win for sure), and potentially exacerbated by my re-fill?, although it has never showed as top of the mark on the sight glass either before (oil wasn't even showing when I bought it), or after I refilled with 3 qts and ran, after which it is at 3/4 on the sight glass. 

Amazingly it starts and runs great, and I had it idling for about an hour today as the cooling fan cycled on and off. The only smoking occurred after it got hot, possibly from the oil burning out of the exhaust and only really bad when the bike was revved. It idles and accelerates clean when cold.

Still hoping it's just the exhaust loaded with oil from an over-fill and burning off. It just runs too well to be fouling plugs from oil burning. I have yet to have a blown engine that ran this good! I guess valve seals are still possible.
   
 
MAN OF BLUES said:
Remove the valve cover, and INSPCT / AND ADJUST the valve clearances.. at that time, examine the gasket, and all of the 'oil drain back holes' from the valve area... I suspect someone may have gotten a bit "GOOPY' and goobered silicone sealer around the gasket sealing the cover, and it migrated, blocking the drain holes, and holding an abundance of 'spare' oil pooled there... sitting on the valves and seals...
and working it's way in from there..
Click to expand...

do it before messing with all the exhaust thing... the longer you wait, the more time you are running without knowing the CAUSE of the issue...  messing with the 'resulted carnage' isn't conducive to fixing the problem..
anyway, after doing so, simply remove the mufflers, everything in the header pipes will burn off quickly without all the fussing with removing them.

also, look down below the airbox, there should be a rubber elbow hose, from the crank case to the air box... make sure it is in place, and intact...  this item would mask the overfilled condition, as it would not have sucked the additional oil vapor up there, which is why you may not have seen oil in the flow path to the filter...

EDIT;
Thanks for joining the forum today, and asking questions.
Sorry if the answers you received required something considered as too labor intensive, to suit your conditions.
After the e-mails between us,
I will just bow out, and say best of luck on your choices.

:103:
 
Could be an exhaust valve seal, but that would probably also mean the guide is worn. I would do a compression check. Then, if you have a low cylinder, squirt oil in around the rings (through spark plug hole) and see if the compression goes up temporally. If so, maybe the rings, if it stays low, maybe valves. With excessive upper engine noise, I'd probably pull the head off right off the bat. This project might be a little more time consuming than you had hoped, but the parts are readily available and fairly cheap.
 
All my C10's had "excessive" top end noise.  ::)
So that's a bit relative to what you may have been used to.
The oil level in the sight glass would change levels over night and day to day w/o being moved or started. Always found that strange, and they both (2002/2005) did it. Got so I never looked at it. Changed oil/filter, added the three qts and waited until next time to do it again.
The Honda ST oil level is always at the same place within a few minutes after shut down.

I think MOB had a good suggestion or two there and very much worth investigating. Yes, he comes across a bit hard to take often, but he is a wealth of tech knowledge. And even worse, he's often right.
 
Agreed. I will certainly heed the advice MOB has given here. I think I may have come off as discounting or dissing, which was never my intention. A couple of my notes came out after he sent his (crossed each other actually). There is obviously strong merit in his suggestions of checking the valve area for blockages, and also adjusting the valves prior to moving it on. To be perfectly honest, this is a re-marketing bike for me, and the cost of labor, parts and effort to  get any farther into the engine than that (ex: valve seals, rings etc) simply exceeds the time I am willing and able to invest (it is actually worth more in parts than whole believe it of not). I need to balance each bike's needs, investment and potential quite carefully.

There is still a decent likelihood (IMHO) that the prior owner's buddy (who changed the oil before this all started) over-filled the bike, and it subsequently puked a crap-load of oil into the exhaust. And I may have repeated his mistake too, after draining and refilling, by missing the second drain plug, but the oil is still below max in the sight glass. 

Yes I am paying attention to what everyone has written, and appreciate the guidance immensely. Thank you.             
 
Bikerman said:
Still hoping it's just the exhaust loaded with oil from an over-fill and burning off.
Click to expand...

Take the mufflers off and run up the road. If smoke is gone, you might have dodged a bullet. Sure hope so.
 
Bikerman, I'm very new too, but what I've noticed is that most COG members consider these bikes a labor of love. Most would have no hesitation to do whatever it takes to repair their "baby". Perhaps they don't understand the "flipping for profit" mindset. Heck, everything I do on this bike takes way longer than I expect, but it's 30 years old and needs some TLC, so I caress it and fix it's "ouchies" no matter how long it takes.

Sounds like you have spend a lot of time messing with the bike hoping the problem will magically go away (which rarely happens from my experience). Forget the guessing game, do a compression check. If that indicates a problem, then pull the head. As long as the pistons, rings, and cylinders are okay, this is an easy fix. Buy a complete working ZG1000 head for a couple hundred bucks and swap it in. The head can be removed with the engine in the frame.
 
Bikerman said:
Agreed. I will certainly heed the advice MOB has given here. I think I may have come off as discounting or dissing, which was never my intention. A couple of my notes came out after he sent his (crossed each other actually). There is obviously strong merit in his suggestions of checking the valve area for blockages, and also adjusting the valves prior to moving it on. To be perfectly honest, this is a re-marketing bike for me, and the cost of labor, parts and effort to  get any farther into the engine than that (ex: valve seals, rings etc) simply exceeds the time I am willing and able to invest (it is actually worth more in parts than whole believe it of not). I need to balance each bike's needs, investment and potential quite carefully.

There is still a decent likelihood (IMHO) that the prior owner's buddy (who changed the oil before this all started) over-filled the bike, and it subsequently puked a crap-load of oil into the exhaust. And I may have repeated his mistake too, after draining and refilling, by missing the second drain plug, but the oil is still below max in the sight glass. 

Yes I am paying attention to what everyone has written, and appreciate the guidance immensely. Thank you.           
Click to expand...

Understand completely the time/cost factor and the value of the parts more than the whole thing issue also. Parted out more than one project snowmobile, although that too takes a lot of time/effort unless you have some prospective pre-buyers waiting. Some stuff never goes away and between dealing with some jerks and no shows it can get frustrating.
I think IF there was oil over-filling it was done before you got it, as it smoked when you bought it and never indicated an over fill after your change. I suspect the exhaust got filled up and is burning off yet. The prudent thing(s) to do have been mentioned by MOB and others but if that doesn't fit into the the cost of time, let the parts/pieces go. To some, the repainted plastics may be a turn off and harder to sell, so factor that into consideration, perhaps. 
 
Take the spark plugs out. If they are clean-ish then it's most likely the exhaust valve stem oil seals have split. If so you will need to get the head off to replace them.
If the plugs are heavily oiled then it's either the intake valve stem seals or a busted oil ring.
 
I dont think you have to drain the oil cooler line unless you just really want to
(shouldnt hurt anything if you do but I dont remember anyone saying you have to do it)
 
I know these bikes very well, if the oil wasn't overfilled the next place I'd be looking is at the spark plug well gaskets on the valve cover. if the gasket is displaced OR if the locating dowels are gone, the engine will suck oil right into the exhaust ports and smoke bad.

  Don't overlook this advise. these engines are bulletproof and don't smoke. The likelyhood of ring or guide failure is incredibly low.

Steve
 
After recovering from my surgery today (injured myself moving the Connie yesterday, as I am kind of little and getting old....), I will give it a shot. Thank you again to everyone.
 
Bikerman said:
After recovering from my surgery today (injured myself moving the Connie yesterday, as I am kind of little and getting old....), I will give it a shot. Thank you again to everyone.
Click to expand...


  Welcome to the club!!    :truce:
 
I'm 60 and only 5'9"......in short, getting older and not a very big guy. Additionally, I consider these bikes relatively heavy (at least for me). While I consider myself in pretty good shape and very healthy, the combination of putting this bike on the center stand and on my lift this Saturday created, (well, you asked for it) a massive thrombosed external Hemorrhoid on Saturday requiring immediate surgical correction (think "anal hernia" here). In short, a major pain in the ass. I guess heavy straining, regardless of how you do it or why, uses your sphincter muscles and creates an opportunity for blow out. May be awhile before I get back to normal. I had a similar, but very minor occurrence a few years ago caused by aggressive sit-ups on my incline bench. 

Well, you asked for it! TMI?
   

 
:-\ :-\ :-\
That makes me hurt just thinking about it.  Just wondering what your method is for getting it up on the lift.  You have my sympathy sir.
 
Bikerman said:
I'm 60 and only 5'9"......in short, getting older and not a very big guy. Additionally, I consider these bikes relatively heavy (at least for me). While I consider myself in pretty good shape and very healthy, the combination of putting this bike on the center stand and on my lift this Saturday created, (well, you asked for it) a massive thrombosed external Hemorrhoid on Saturday requiring immediate surgical correction (think "anal hernia" here). In short, a major pain in the a**. I guess heavy straining, regardless of how you do it or why, uses your sphincter muscles and creates an opportunity for blow out. May be awhile before I get back to normal. I had a similar, but very minor occurrence a few years ago caused by aggressive sit-ups on my incline bench. 

Well, you asked for it! TMI?
 
Click to expand...


    Damn, that would tick me off!! :mad: 
 
My method for getting it onto lift started with pushing it up (I failed half way up after a bit of struggling, and had to bring in back down) and then motored it up in first (much better). I have loaded many bikes on the lift this way, including Stratoliners, Road Kings, Goldwings and my BMW 1150GS. No idea why this one was so hard for me. 

Probably just getting old. :(
 
Damn! that was bad. I hope you will recover well.

These bikes are heavy and awkward for younger, taller guys too. Something about the center stand travel and handrails are not quite right.

 
If the rear tire is significantly under inflated or worn the C10 is not an easy bike to put on centerstand. I can't believe how much easier my Feejer is to put on centerstand than my C10s were.
 
OK, I'm recovered enough from my injury to get it on my lift again and start tearing into it this weekend. I'm actually looking forward to it as a mystery, and I'm hopeful, especially based on Steve's previous comments. Thanks again to all.
 
Bikerman said:
After recovering from my surgery today (injured myself moving the Connie yesterday, as I am kind of little and getting old....), I will give it a shot. Thank you again to everyone.
Click to expand...

  You ain't the only one getting too old to move a C10 around but I keep her around to remind me of the GREAT rides I have had with my C10. Wife gets a little jealous though !!
 
Update: I pulled the valve cover yesterday and found a broken intake rocker arm on #3 (probably due to someone not properly tightening the adjuster lock nut) , a dropped intake valve in that same cylinder and what appears to be a hole in the piston (hard to see). The rest looks OK. I am pulling the head today for a better look. Looks like used parts are plentiful and cheap, making an top-end repair (used loaded head, poss. cylinders and a piston) in my future. If anyone wants to make me a great deal on those parts, please let me know!     

 
Progress to date: the top end is torn down. It was actually pretty easy after all the Tupperware came off. I think removing the carbs was acrually harder than the motor work so far.

Head and cylinders are off, #3 intake rocker is broken, #3 intake and exhaust valves are wiped out as well as the head in that same cylinder. #3 piston has a hole. #3 cylinder has extremely minor scarring that should hone out with minor loss of material, not over-bore. All missing bits found in strainer when I dropped the pan. Cams look good, as do the connecting rods, other cylinders and pistons. Crank case flushed with kerosene a couple of times with nothing else coming out.


-Bought a used head and piston off of a 93' for $40 shipped. 18K miles. Lots of 86' heads out there; I avoided due to weak valve issues.
-Bought new base and head gaskets for $35 by shopping the deals on-line. OEM and Cometic
-Bought OEM new rings for #3 piston for $26, stock size as I am not going to over-bore
-New circlips for the piston were $2.99

Amazingly, I think I will have the top end repaired and get the old girl back together for under $200 inc. fluids. A worthy winter project for sure, as our riding weather is now officially over.
 
 
Sounds really promising.
Where did you find the gaskets for such a low price?
I thought a head gasket cost far more that that..

Ride safe, Ted
 
Bikerman said:
... #3 piston has a hole. #3 cylinder has extremely minor scarring that should hone out with minor loss of material, not over-bore. ...

-Bought a used head and piston off of a 93' for $40 shipped. 18K miles. ...

-Bought OEM new rings for #3 piston for $26, stock size as I am not going to over-bore
-New circlips for the piston were $2.99

Amazingly, I think I will have the top end repaired and get the old girl back together for under $200 inc. fluids. A worthy winter project for sure, as our riding weather is now officially over.
Click to expand...

when you get to putting this all back in, make sure to closely measure all the stuff, with proper measuring tools, piston/rings/cylinder (before-during-and after the hone), and specifically the "new" rings end gaps... they will likely need to be filed/adjusted to achieve the proper gap...this is common when new rings are purchased, and very necessary; also the orientation and inspection of the pistons ring grooves/placement of the new rings...
That one step means a great deal between success and pain on a rebuild.

best of luck
 
If you run the back tire onto a board it is easier to put the thing on the center stand. There is a video floating around where a guy put a C10 on the center stand in his bare feet. Heal quickly because it sounds like a real PITA.  ;) 
 
Came looking for Valve guide seal guidance and LEARNED a great deal more. Thanks to Steve sunny in Florida.....I have a home there too. My wife is living in it...I'm out of state working, sigh. The Counter is ticking...gotta get this thing torn down and new brake lines, rebuild brakes, clutch, carbs cleaned, Forks rebuilt, valve adjustment and change all the fluids. Hopefully by May she will be ALIVE........Thanks to the Forum. Gr8 info
 
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