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Fork from late and early model mixed up?

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Finally I rode home 94 Connie A9 and found the fork sag on fork is nearly 45mm without rider. With me (170) sag is 50mm.
Otherwise the fork works well. Dives not extremely on brake.
Fork legs are from late model, but there is the air balancer above the lower yoke.
I looked underneath but couldn't find holes in the stanchions.
Are the holes so small that i can't see our touch them?
Fork caps are from the first model too.
Both without air valves.
I contacted a shop number on the forks and they could identify the forks with a number stamped in the fork legs and told me they did lower the forks, added progressive WP springs and machined a fork cap.
One of the fork caps seems original and one seems machined, so that seems right.
What I would like to do is make a bushing and additionally change to the adjustable fork bolts.
But will they fit?
The previous owner had an accident and changed many things including fork yokes. Maybe the stanchions are from the pre 93?
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
I know the stanchions of late and early models are interchangeable in the fork legs, but are the fork caps interchangeable too?
The caps for early models are much deeper
In the stanchions than the 94.
Also I would lower the stanchion in the yokes and not change the sag
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Caps are not interchangeable. In my recent disassembly and comparison of each C10 fork style combination I found the following.

The stanchions are threaded different for respective caps. Springs are different of course. The damping tube is .25 inches longer in one. I can not remember which at moment.

Note as well save for above all other internal parts are same ( bushes seals, etc).
Lowers are interchangeable as long as wheel and brakes go with them.

So you could build a late model stanchion tube set with early lowers/wheel/brakes or a early model stanchion tube set with late lowers/wheel/brakes. Or just switch a late model/early model complete.

Do believe this all can been done. Believe someone here has done it already in whole or part.

I would have done a mock up save for the late model set purchased off ebay had an out of round stanchion undisclosed by seller. If I can ever find a good set. I will build an adjustable early model fork set up hybrid without air.

If anyone has attempted this and failed I would be surprised. Hope this info helps someone.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
I appreciate your help. Can you Tell me how small the air holes above the lower yoke are?
I'm shure now that i have the older stanchions,
But still miss the air holes. Will do bushing this week and try to set sag at 35mm with me on connie.
 

Mercer

Member
Member
1/8 inch hole size or so, then maybe 1/2 above lower triple tree. They are covered by a 4-o-ring sliding cover held down by a chrome hose clamp looking ring on top. There is a metal tube approx 3/16 dia bridging stanchions. Best look at a schematic online from parts house if you have no shop manual. One picture is worth .............
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Brunoderbrumm, If your fork caps do not have pre-load adjusters in them, you have the older style fork stanchions.
Earliest forks, had a Schrader valve in 1 cap and the other cap did not.
{I suspect you have 2 of the caps that do not have the Schrader valve installed}

I think the holes your looking for are there. {They are very small}
You just haven't found them yet.

To find the holes; raise the crossover/balance tube about 2" and compress the shocks.
You will hear air, or oil will leak out of the holes.

Another possibility is that someone raised the front of your bike, and the holes {your looking for} are under the lower triple tree/yoke.
(I think that doubtful as your not leaking oil).
There is also the possibility that you have "too little oil" in the forks. (If so, you could be leaking air only).

NOTE: As you figure out what you have, please let us know.
Mercer and I want to install new style stanchions, onto Old style lower fork tubes.
{This would also him to keep his old style brakes/wheel, remove the balance tube, and have adjustment for his springs}

I tried to set 35mm of sag on my C-10.
(mine is a 2003, with pre-load adjusters}
I could not do so.
I stiffened my springs and {using my pre-load adjusters} was able to get the sag I wanted.

Ride safe, Ted
 
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Austriamach3

Member
Member
Thank you Ted and Mercer. Very helpful.
I looked under the balancer but cant find holes. The shop, who did the work in 2006 told me they lowered the forks and that oil is 10 weight and set to 130mm and did make one cap. I found progressive wilbers springs in the net for lowering the Connie. They have shorter bushings. Hope I can take a look into the forks this weekend. Will of course tell what i'll find.
Can you tell me the legth of the original bushings please?
Are the 35mm sag with you on the bike?
What's the sag unloaded?
Good luck with the early to late conversion.
Cheers
Chris
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I looked under the balancer but cant find holes.
** I suspect that the holes are covered by the lower Triple tree. {Explanation below}

The shop, who did the work in 2006 told me they lowered the forks
** Lowering the fork tubes, would place the holes under the lower triple tree, and possibly they installed fork tubes without holes.
,,, But, if no holes; why did the shop install the balance tube?? (Does not make sense if holes are not there)
Is it possible that they meant to say that they lowered the front of the bike?
NOTE; Lowering the forks {In the triple tree} would raise the motorcycle.
So, please explain; What are you describing, and why did they lower the forks?

and that oil is 10 weight
** Good.

and set to 130mm
** Normal setting should be about 165 mm. {Measured with forks collapsed and springs removed}
NOTE: Forks with Race tech Gold Valves installed, sometimes use 130mm for the Oil Level.

and did make one cap.
** Good. That explains why your caps are the same.
NOTE: It's beginning to sound like a Specialty Suspension Shop may have worked on these forks previously.
If so,,,, we need to know what is inside. Forks need to be removed and information shared to do this...

I found progressive wilbers springs in the net for lowering the Connie. They have shorter bushings.
*** We need an explanation. Setting sag, or installing stiffer springs, raises the front forks.
,,, But Softer springs or shorter bushing would cause more sag and the bike would set lower..
,,, ie; What are you trying to accomplish???

Hope I can take a look into the forks this weekend. Will of course tell what i'll find.
*** Good. GREAT!!

Can you tell me the length of the original bushings please?
*** Mercer may know that dimension. I do not have a set of early forks.
,,,, As I suspect a Suspension shop may have modified your forks, we will have to adjust the length based on the length of the spacer/bushing that you find inside.
Without more info; I suggest that you make a spacer 1" longer than what is in it and check your sag.

Are the 35mm sag with you on the bike?
*** Yes.

What's the sag unloaded?
*** I do not recall.

*** RIde safe, Ted
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Oooh my Englisch is bad...
The girl from the shop told me they lowered the bike, not the fork.
I think the springs with the shorter bushings are in my bike.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Top of stanchions is 3mm above the plate on upper yoke. So the air holes should be visible.
Sorry, could not write.
Therfore the three posts.
Thank you
 

Mercer

Member
Member
"*** Mercer may know that dimension. I do not have a set of early forks."

Answer: I no longer have an unmodified stock spacer to measure from. Sorry.

Any spacer added to your spring should result in 35mm or so of sag with rider as indicated by Ted.

If minorly off and short add washers as shims.

I dimple washer centers with a vice and ball bearing pressed into a socket to make stacked washers all the
more controllable when screwing caps in place. This due to any preload. It is hell removing fairings to
find dropped washers. They can shoot out of stack and into fairing depths otherwise.

If majorly short on sag at 35mm plus then just cut longer spacers from pvc pipe. Then fine tune with washers as above if needed.

Note sag to spacer is not a one to one measure. So if your sag is say 40mm, then to get to 35mm a 3.5mm washer stack
might get you there due to your washer stack increasing spring compression as in preload factors.

Disclaimer I am no expert here but have been experimenting with my forks for a while. Getting good at making adjustments to spring spacers, oil viscosity, and oil height. Initially I tried recommendations here and now am fine tuning based on what I am learning.

As a general starting point to make up and estimate the spacer length.

I would cut a pvc tube to a length just below stanchion top. Assemble fork caps and measure sag with rider. Then re-cut or add shims as above.

If you do remove caps please post pictures here for reference. That might help to make your situation clearer.

Hope this helps.
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Of note your answer above to Ted seemed to be yes to a 35mm sag with rider.

If so this would be "in spec" for rider included sag setting. This indicating a correct spacer for your situation.

Though perhaps a stiff or firm ride with some springs.

Also 3mm above top yoke would be not enough. Must have meant 3mm at top of handlebar attachment to stanchion perhaps.

Again hope some of this helps.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Brunoderbrumm, your English is fine. We're just working thru details and are using different names for the parts.
We'll get thru this.. "Interesting project".

It's confusing; that your upper fork tubes (Stanctions?) do not have holes.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& you have 2 Fork Caps that do not air valves, nor pre-load adjusters.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,& 1 of those fork caps seems to be hand machined.

All of think makes me think that a suspension shop may have done the work previously.
NOTE: We can work around everything. Just trying to understand what you have..

For a starting point, I think Mercer has the best idea about determining length of spacers (bushings?).
ie; I would cut a pvc tube to a length just below stanchion top. Assemble fork caps and measure sag with rider. Then re-cut or add shims as above.

I suggest; Put bike on center stand/place jack under header pipes & raise the front until wheel is off the ground.
Then carefully remove the cap on one fork...
** If the spacer {bushing ?} is below the top of the upper fork tube {Stanction ?}, measure and make a spacer that is long enough to be above the upper fork tube.
** If the spacer is at or above the upper fork tube, we have another problem and need to discuss further.
ie; Springs may be too weak.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: A 35mm sag is going to give you a "much" stiffer ride than you have now.
Most C-10 owners have more sag than 35mm...
We can discuss sag, after you determine approximate spacer length..

PS II: Where are you located?
 
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Mercer

Member
Member
PS III:

As Ted notes about positioning bike on center stand with no weight on front suspension. Would add, one should have approximately 5.5 or 140 MM between fork seal lip and bottom of lower triple tree at that point. If not this measure or close, would suspect then fork tubes/stanchions are not placed well or proper in triple trees.

If tubes have been shortened by a vendor by any means, that would be revealed as well by any less than measure.

As Ted notes 35 mm is a stiffer ride. Last he and I spoke he was at 38mm. We have both probably adjusted our washer shims since that exchange would venture as it was long ago.

Ted knows the suspension ropes! He has helped me immensely. He is a good sounding board, good reference and info source.

Again hope additional info is helpful.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Mercer you are right stanchions ends 3mm above handlebar attachment. I measured 128mm between fork seal lip and bottom of lower triple tree fully extended. So it seems they are shortened or from first model series. But no air holes found between tripletrees.
Following measurements are from bottom of lower tripletree to bottom of a zip tie.
With me on the bike 75mm - so sag is 53mm
Normal riding without excessive braking or potholes 32mm - so it dives 43mm from sag.
I have spacers with 25mm and 35mm from aluminium and will try tomorrow.
Everything Ted and you writes is very helpful.
Thank's a lot.
Ted I am from Austria.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
A friend of mine, {Ralf Peter} lives in Lustenau, rides a C-10, and has quite a few parts.
Might be an extra set of eyes if you need.

We're still uncertain what fork tubes you have.
The later model Caps will not screw into early model Tubes.
If your bike does have later model upper fork tubes, installing OEM caps would give you pre-load adjustment capability.
Having that capability would be a plus....

Ride safe, Ted
 
Last edited:

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Today I put Connie on the mainstand and lift the front up with a Jack. I found a few more millimeters against first measurement.
Between fork seal lip and lower triple tree I have now 134mm, so the sag with me on the bike is 59mm!
Unfortunately the spacers I made have a Diabetes of 35mm, but the thread is 36mm on the fork tops against 38mm on the post 94 inner tubes. So they are to big. The spring is 540mm long and looks 5mm oder the top When in the tube. No spacer installed. Springs are progressive and stamped WP05.
I'll make spacers with smaller diameter next week.
Ralf was the owner or admin of the german forum, but never answered last year, as I tried to contact him. Now the forum is down since month's. He lives around 400 miles away.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
All the early forks had a spacer that was several inches long.
The springs in the pre 94 were 514mm long.
The springs in post 94 models were 545mm long.
It's sounding more and more that your fork tubes are Post 94, or your forks were extensively modified by a suspension shop.

Another option is; Your entire front suspension may be post 94.
If so, a quick look at the brake calipers will tell us.

Question; Does each of your front calipers have 1 or 2 pistons in them?
Also, can you post a photo of the forks/calipers?

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Do you have a lathe to make the spacers?
If so, there is a way to make the spacer so that it is easier to assemble.

Try ralf.e.peter@gmail.com
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Hi ted, legs are the later ones for shure, as are the 2 piston calipers. But inner tubes seems to be from early. The later ones have 38mm thread on Top, as I found out. Maybe they are from a tomcat?
I have no lathe, but work on a band saw and high speed cutting machines to make raw parts for our cnc milling and cnc lathe.
At the time all machines are busy, but I can use them, when free. Appreciate an idea about spacers.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
I looked inside the inner tube but no hole found. Tried with lamp and flashlight in the dark, no success.
But there was the balancer tube.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
What is the thread size of the upper tubes you have?
I have a fork Cap from an 87. The OD of the thread appears to be 34mm.
From Mercers post; The later ones have 38mm thread.

Ride safe, Ted

On the spacers;
Make the OD of the spacer, the same size as the OD of the spring.
Additionally;
Make them 10mm longer than needed. (and machine that 10mm section to a diameter that will fit inside the spring)
By fitting inside the spring, it will be easier to push the spring/spacer inside the fork tube when you install the caps.
NOTE: If the caps have a cavity inside them, you could also put a 10mm section on the top of the spacer's. (to fit inside the cap's)
 
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Mercer

Member
Member
Make sure spacer is made from tubing not solid. You would not want to lose any designed in airspace in fork.
Airspace acts as a progressive spring as it is compressed. Not sure how much you might have to play with.
Ted do correct me if I am assuming wrongly.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Brunoderbrumm, in your first note, you said; Fork sag on fork is nearly 45mm without rider. With me (rider sag, @170) sag is 50mm.
You have now corrected Rider sag to be 59mm, so I will assume that sag (without ride) is 54mm?
(If so, adding your weight to the bike, only increased the total sag by 4mm???

If this is correct, we may have another issue.
ie; The springs may be too stiff..

Ride safe, Ted
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Hello Ted
Yes, the inner diameter is roundabout 34mm. Thread of cap is 36mm.
You are right with the sag. First time I only measured the extended length on sidestand with one hand pushing handlebar up and second hand measuring.
I weight around 170 pounds.
Think a pvc tube will be Best for a spacer regarding airvolume.
Do you have and suggestions what Kind of tube to use?
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
If our Cap/thread information is correct;
Pre-94 forks have a 34mm thread.
Post-94 forks have a 38mm thread.
Your {??} forks have a 36mm Tread, no holes for balance., and 2 piston Caliper's.
,,,, (NONE of this was on a pre-94 Concours) NOTE: European Concours might be different than USA Connie's in 94.

The only answer I know of is; you do not have OEM Concours upper fork tubes.
We need a picture of the bike/forks/caps to tell you more..

The easiest option is to make spacers.
PVC Material works great. (Any PVC that barely drops into the fork tubes will be fine.
In the USA I think that many use 3/4" PVC Tubing to make spacers.

Ride safe, Ted
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Hello Ted i found a thread diameter of the older stanchions of 36mm the inner thread diameter of the stanchions is roundabout 34mm, so that seems correct. After a bit research I found a zr750 stanchion length 617mm with the same bushings as the later Connie fork and a 38mm upper thread. Would be interesting how lang the stock stanchions are? They are still available not original. My left Stanchion is full of visible but not feelable scratches, so an exchange of both would be good. For first tests I will nevertheless only make spacers and enjoy riding.
Appreciate your help
Chris
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I'm not sure that we can figure out what tubes are on your bike.
If I understand your note correctly, your upper tubes do have a 34mm thread?
But, there are no holes for the balance?

So, they are similar to pre-94 tubes, but not the same.. o_O

I agree that the easiest option is to build spacers, check sag, and find out if you like the ride.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I think Mercer has the length dimensions of the upper fork tubes.
But, you might need to take your forks apart, to measure yours. 😧
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Pre 94 forks;


Post 94 forks;

NOTE: Lots of differences in the forks.. Tripple tree/bearings are the same.. Different axle.
Look closely to see differences on brake caliper mounts.
Can see difference's in caps.
,,,Pre 94 caps have 1 air valve and 1 blocked cap, plus tubes have crossover/balance tube.
,,,Post 94 has caps with pre-load adjustment.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Hello Ted
Pm sent for photos.
I tried today to mount 25mm spacers but oooh
So hard.
Marked stanchion and cap to find right Position of thread but failed.
Very hard to press down and nearly dropped her
 

Mercer

Member
Member
I'm not sure that we can figure out what tubes are on your bike.
If I understand your note correctly, your upper tubes do have a 34mm thread?
But, there are no holes for the balance?

So, they are similar to pre-94 tubes, but not the same.. o_O

I agree that the easiest option is to build spacers, check sag, and find out if you like the ride.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I think Mercer has the length dimensions of the upper fork tubes.
But, you might need to take your forks apart, to measure yours. 😧
Both early and late GTR/ZG 1000 stanchions are 643 mm long overall with early air assisted tubes having a air transfer hole 229 mm from stanchion top end. Hope this helps!
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Please note a trick if I may. To index caps for easier spring compression.

With spring out mark cap and tube with marker just where thread starts to mesh.
Then with a punch mark right cap a two punch marks and then with a chisel 2 marks on the stanchion top edge correspondingly.
The left use one mark likewise.

To use this reference:

Place cap 1/4 turn counter clockwise to start mark with maximum down force till 1/4 past your marks.

If you miss the mesh point then try again starting as above.

It helps to use a short extension and a large fender washer with a rag wrapped around the extension to act as a spin bearing for your down force hand. Only use down force with hand for turn quarter before mark till quarter after mark. The ratchet wrench hand mainly just twists the cap.

Again if you miss the thread biting by quarter after start over. You will get good at it with practice.

Also someone else turning wrench while you control the down push is better still. My wife works ratchet wrench while I push down. I can do it myself but with her supervision it is easier! Ha!

Hope this helps.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Those dimensions should help.

I received photo's from Brunoderbrumm yesterday.
By the way, he has a "Beautiful/clean C-10".
The fork caps in his photo appear to be identical to the {non air fitting} caps in the Early Connies.
(But apparently their a different thread, and his upper tubes don't have a hole for balance).
His lower's are the same as the later model Connies. {have 2 pot calipers/fender/rotor that are the same as later model Connies}

Luckily, his lower tubes have stickers on them from the company that supplied the springs. Their a suspension company.
I suspect that they did the fork mods..

Ride safe, Ted
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Don't know. If they are, it's doubtful they will have records on the bike.
But, they might be able to suggest what forks he has, and/or sell Fork caps with adjustable pre load in them..

Ride safe, Ted
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Hello and thank you very much. You are amazing.
I contacted the shop and they did make a fork cap without air adjust and added the springs and had a write up with oil level set to 130mm and 12wt oil. Also identified the springs with sign WP05 on the lower winding. They told me, that the air holes on the stanchions maybe welded.
I also contacted the preview owners son, who told me that he had and accident and took fairing parts from an older Connie and did a repaint. He changed the stanchions from the parts bike too.
Numbers of frame and motor are European A9 for shure. Thread is 36mm.
Here it's raining and cold and additionally I'm waiting for fork oil and motor oil, so it will take some time until I can give new feedback.
Will have a speedwrench and helping hands too.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Great. It's all starting to make sense.
The only confusion is the 36mm threads.
Please tell me how you are measuring the thread?

I'm measuring the OD of the threads "on the fork cap".
That OD is 1.328" (33.7mm)
The major diameter, of a thread is just below the designated thread size, so, I'm calling (33.7mm) a 34mm thread.
NOTE: In converting to mm, so I may be incorrect in my numbers.

Ride safe, Ted
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Do not know if I would ever use a speed wrench (if an air or electric driven type) on fork caps. Would fear missing mesh point and stripping engagement threads. In my lifetime have had my share of tire venders do this to lug nuts. Must confess personally doing it to a few things too.

If a "speed wrench" is this below. Might try that with rag and fender washer trick. In fact would seem a good idea!


Or this below would be best yet and perhaps ideal!
 

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Mercer

Member
Member
WOW! Just what I need for another tool......................Ha!

 

connie_rider

Member
Member
This is a speedwrench. No air/electric. The only power, is your hand.
I've been using a speedwrench for years to do fork caps. It allows straight the force (needed to depress the spring) to be straight down.
It also allows room (hand space) for someone to help push and align it...


Ride safe, Ted
 

Bud

Member
Member
This is a speedwrench. No air/electric. The only power, is your hand.
I've been using a speedwrench for years to do fork caps. It allows straight the force (needed to depress the spring) to be straight down.
It also allows room (hand space) for someone to help push and align it...


Ride safe, Ted
My dad really liked speed wrenches.
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Live and learn. Never owned one, seen one in real time, or heard one called by name. But sure do like the one
of brace origins. I have two old braces. Gonagiv one a try next time!
 

bobct

Member
Member
Invaluable info for fork cap assembly was posted on the forum;
Put the fork cap on without the springs in and mark the cap and fork when the threads start to engage. That way you start just short of the marks aligning and if you don't have thread engagement nearby where the marks align back it off and try again.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Finally I put in the 25mm spacers.
Sag without me on the bike is now 18mm
With me on the bike it's 29mm
Pushing down the fork with me on bike and pulling brake lever I get 69mm.
You was right Ted. Spring seems to be on the stiff side.
And again Ted: You are right, it's a 34mm thread.
Shame on me, as I use calipers daily in work ...
Hope I can test ride it tomorrow. It's my 58 birthday, but as a family guy, there's no much hope
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Think might back off on spacers and shoot for 35-40mm
with you on bike.

Maybe 20mm on spacer. You can always add washers to
fine tune if by some chance you go past 40mm.

That will soften perceived stiffness of spring would suspect.

Curious what Ted or others will recommend.
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
Hello Mercer
I could test ride her today and find stifness okay.
Don't have this front heavy feeling and have no problems with my short legs. Feels better when slow riding too. And as a big advantage I can put her on the mainstand with ease.
Just wondering why the sag goes from 59mm to 29mm with only 25mm spacer. Okay it's a progressive spring, so I think i have taken away the soft part of the spring. But again: seems okay.
Thank's again for your help
 

Mercer

Member
Member
Believe the answer to be you are preloading spring by length of spacer. So the spring needs more force to make it compress the longer the spacer. Sag gets less the longer the spacer.

It is not however a 1 to 1 mm ratio as you have observed. I am guessing a 20 mm spacer would get you closer to 35 mm rider weighted sag which would be softer feeling as said above. But if you are happy with it now no need to experiment further.

From the net:

"Preloading does not change spring rate but preload does change the force to start moving the shock and high preload dramatically reduces shock performance over smaller bumps and makes for a more harsh ride and worse traction."
 

Austriamach3

Member
Member
20210611_191455.jpg
this is what I found in the right fork tube. Totally damaged thread. I think it's better to not open the cap, until I have new fork tubes.
Riding with 28mm sag is not that bad.
Thank's again for your help Connie Rider and Mercer
 
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