• Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

Had to respond to the locked MSF ERC course topic.

Andy Panda

Andy Panda

Guest
Guest
Wow, this topic is one that drives many police motor instructors up a wall. I'm an IPTM certified police motorcycle instructor and in my opinion the BRC is a joke (ERC not much better), then again so are the MC endorsement requirements of most states. I think that everyone should go through the police motorcycle operators course in order to get their endorsements seeing how maybe 1% (police escort training) if not less, is solely law enforcement exclusive/applicable. The basic police course has a 33% fail rate and this 33% is usually the "experienced" riders who are unable to unlearn their bad habits (mental preconceptions of what a motorcycle can and cannot do) from civilian riding added to this the stress of being a law enforcement course. The newbies with little to no experience usually do the best. When I took the police motorcycle operators course, let me tell you it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Many SWAT cops will tell you police motor school was harder than their SWAT training courses. I am still amazed at what a motorcycle can do, even the large Goldwing Cadi's. This tends to scare the public into thinking that making the police class a requirement for an MC endorsement would be unreasonable but the public forgets that the only thing that makes the police course a law enforcement course is the style of instruction. We (cops) are also getting evaluated when going through the course on how we deal with being fatigued and stressed while operating our motors (simulate long shift hours, emergency response riding to an accident scene, extreme weather ect.) , this obviously would be the difference between the police and a civilian version of the police course. We only get two weeks (10, 8 hour, days) to learn how to professionally operate a motorcycle for policing purposes. Of course a civilian version could be set longer and conducted in a much less stressful manner with the concentration being soley on safe operation and not safe operation for police work. The differences between the MSF BRC/ERC courses and the Police Motorcycle Operators (PMO) course is alarming to me because there should not be such a wide difference where there is. Here's a couple of examples. People generally get taught that they need to use both brakes to brake and should use both at the same time, but we're taught that 85% to 90% (depending on the bike) of our braking needs to come from the front brake and it is recommended that we never cover the rear brake when riding but cover the front brake! That it's best to apply front brake first in order to more likely achieve "thresh-hold braking" and reduce the chances of locking the rear brake. We're taught that the rear brake is a stabilizer, which is how we use it in conjuction with slipping the clutch for the slow exercises (which, by the way is mechanically wrong! Wrenches will tell you that the clutches are NOT designed to do this wet or dry and a BMW dry clutch will teach you this quickly). This scares people who tend more often than not that too much front brake results in going over the handlebars which is a total myth. Just like the myth about loud pipes, which old ladies will tell you they will think belong to jacked up pick up trucks first. Another difference is here in FL the riders handbook shows three acceptable paths of travel within a lane (safest most visible being in the center according to the book) whereas police are advised there are only two (left and right side) and to ride on the side that mosts secures your lane (so as not to allow someone to muscle in). The most important difference is the public never gets the muscle memory aspect of motorcycle riding training. Emergency braking and evassive manuevering need to be a muscle memory reactions and the only way to achieve this is to practice them both everyday (this is done to death in the police class and rightly so). Survival motorcycle skills are perishable skills, if they are not practiced they will deminish and deteriorate over time. With all this said it is amazing to me how the MSF does not recognize police motorcycle instructors as instructors and require police motor-instructors to attend their courses before they can teach an MSF approved course. I know a few police instructors that have done this but to me I find it insulting seeing how the MSF course barely scratches the surface of proper motorcycle operation and is putting people on the street who can't handle a motorcycle which I will have no part of. My dept. had one incident where a new rider, who had just bought a Road King right after taking the MSF course, was given a ride home because this person took two lanes of traffic to make a left turn and still nearly dropped their bike in the middle of a busy intersection yet we're supposed to believe they somehow passed the MSF course  :-[. The way it's set up in FL now where dealerships are practically running all the MSF courses, it appears that safety has taken a back seat to motorcycle sales. Sad  :(  I've worked countless motorcycle crashes that just should not happen because people do not know how to properly negotiate a curve, improperly braked, panic and froze (did nothing) and rode beyond their ability  :truce:. Some of you are probably saying well "what about the motorcops that crash we see on the news all the time", the stats that I've got from UNF say that at least 80% of police motorcycle crashes, even though the motor officer may not be at fault, the motor officer should have been able to avoid the crash entirely if they had only applied their training. The problem with motorcops is the frequency of mandatory motor training/practice is required by their agency. There are still quite a few law enforcement agencies that have little to no continued training after the initial police motor course and in some cases don't even require the police motor course. Nobody is perfect, but getting as much training/practice in as possible helps increase muscle memory and better your chances of survival by avoiding crashes. I don't care what anyone says, "motorcycle" is the hardest language to learn to speak fluently. Stay safe and keep the sticky side down!!! :motonoises:
 
1.  The BRC is designed to provide fundamental instruction in safe motorcycle operation.  From my experience, it does so very well.  That said, I also, upon their successful completion, tell my classes, "You are now qualified to operate a 125-250cc motorcycle in an empty parking lot."  The ERC is designed to assist riders in correcting bad habits.  Neither class is designed to provide the levels of expertise found in police motor officer training.  I tell my classes that they MUST practice (in a safe place) the maneuvers and actions we've covered (I suspect all RiderCoaches do the same).
2.  The vast majority of riders NEVER take any kind of training. I'm of the opinion that the BRC and ERC are certainly better choices.  For all riders to go through the same levels of training as a police officer might be beneficial but let's go further and require that all drivers go through the same levels of training/qualification/re-qualification as a private pilot (40 hour MINIMUM of training, a very demanding written test, a challenging practical test, a thorough physical every two years and a skill test review every two years).
3.  The MSF requires police motor officers to go through the MSF RiderCoach Program, not to teach them to ride but rather to teach them how to present the MSF program.  When I went through the MSF RCP, I was already a "certified" instructor by the US Army, a Hunter Safety Instructor for the state of SC, and a Scuba Diving Instructor.  Each one required me to go through their "qualification" program.  The MSF has a very different process for presenting the information than what I was accustomed to.  We had several candidates in my RCP who did not successfully complete the course; not because they could not operate their bikes or perform the requisite maneuvers but because they could not adequately present the material (know how to do something and knowing how to teach someone else to do something are very different things).
4.  If the BRC and ERC are, in your words, a "joke" then Driver's Education across this country is a bigger one.  It is simply too easy for anyone to get (and keep) a driver's license. I find your slam of MSF counterproductive to safety. 
 
Ranger Jim said:
1.  The BRC is designed to provide fundamental instruction in safe motorcycle operation.  From my experience, it does so very well.  That said, I also, upon their successful completion, tell my classes, "You are now qualified to operate a 125-250cc motorcycle in an empty parking lot."  The ERC is designed to assist riders in correcting bad habits.  Neither class is designed to provide the levels of expertise found in police motor officer training.  I tell my classes that they MUST practice (in a safe place) the maneuvers and actions we've covered (I suspect all RiderCoaches do the same).
2.  The vast majority of riders NEVER take any kind of training. I'm of the opinion that the BRC and ERC are certainly better choices.  For all riders to go through the same levels of training as a police officer might be beneficial but let's go further and require that all drivers go through the same levels of training/qualification/re-qualification as a private pilot (40 hour MINIMUM of training, a very demanding written test, a challenging practical test, a thorough physical every two years and a skill test review every two years).
3.  The MSF requires police motor officers to go through the MSF RiderCoach Program, not to teach them to ride but rather to teach them how to present the MSF program.  When I went through the MSF RCP, I was already a "certified" instructor by the US Army, a Hunter Safety Instructor for the state of SC, and a Scuba Diving Instructor.  Each one required me to go through their "qualification" program.  The MSF has a very different process for presenting the information than what I was accustomed to.  We had several candidates in my RCP who did not successfully complete the course; not because they could not operate their bikes or perform the requisite maneuvers but because they could not adequately present the material (know how to do something and knowing how to teach someone else to do something are very different things).
4.  If the BRC and ERC are, in your words, a "joke" then Driver's Education across this country is a bigger one.  It is simply too easy for anyone to get (and keep) a driver's license. I find your slam of MSF counterproductive to safety.
Click to expand...


Excellent points Jim... Couldn't have said it better myself.

 
Police instructors (in FL) go through what is called instructor techniques before they can teach/instruct in any subject manner, it is a required prerequisite. Instructor techniques teaches future instructors how people learn, how to set up different learning strategies for different people who learn differently, how to set up a lesson plan to meet the needs of students and has to comply (at least here in FL) with FL Dept. of education standards of learning and is by no means an easy course to pass. With that said I am not slamming the idea of these MSF courses but rather what they have become. The FL drivers licensing bureau has washed their hands nearly completely of conducting MC endorsement testing leaving the testing up to dealerships that teach the courses which opens the whole process up to being a shady one because we all know there are dealerships only interested in selling a bike. Who's watching these dealerships that are the same ones that often allow those who don't even have an endorsement to drive off on a bike just to make a sale. Even before this occurred and when the class was not even a requirement, many people were able to walk in to the local DMV, take the MC skills test and pass with little to no riding experience at all. So do I think the drivers licensing process in the country is broke and a joke ...YES I do, and forget motorcycles, lets talk about the morrons who are able to obtain CDLs to operate CMVs!!!! If people only knew what type of idiots the DMV is giving CDLs to, and they are driving 18 wheelers! I feel that immediate changes need to occur with some sort of accountability put in place starting by taking the MSF courses away from the dealerships or at the very least taking the physical testing itself back. People can now take a piece of paper saying they attended a MSF class and "passed" a MC endorsement test to the DMV without question or confirmation. Granted some training is better than none at all, teaching the fudamentals is great but why are we stopping there, why not give back the learners permits and give people time to prep for the next step and require a second course before a full endorsement is issued. I'm not knocking the MSF nor was this my intention, but I will knock on the state, hell FL doesn't even require police motor officers be certified as motor officers by attending the police motor operators course first. Agencies do this on their own to cover themselves for liability purposes and you'd be surprised at just how many still don't. I met an officer from AL who never went to a formal police motor class and only went recently because he ran over a pedestrian and his agency got sued. We need to be proactive is what I'm getting at and a lot less reactive. No different than the D.O.T.s unknown number of required deaths at an intersection before they decide a traffic light is needed, or maybe give an IQ test to those applying for CDLs and it definitely would not hurt to do more thorough background checks on school bus drivers before we let them drive our children around. Our DMVs could use a whole lot of improvement but then again they're not known for their great customer service are they.
 
MSF only researches, develops and implements training curriculum and standards.  Implementation is left up to the individual states. 

 
Real in favor of a strong motorcycling industry, aren't cha.  ::)
They're basically only toys in the USA anyway.
 
I would suspect that FL would require anyone applying for an instructor position to go through the FL qualification program even if the individual were "qualified" in another state. 

Here in SC, the DMV has the authority (and they've exercised it several times, mostly with folks coming in with RIDER EDGE certifications) to test anyone coming in for the motorcycle endorsement.  Additionally, the MSF RiderCoaches here in SC have to be certified by the state before they can issue a DMV waiver (the MSF card alone is not sufficient).  I contend that your complaints about the MSF courses are more about FL's policies than the MSF programs.

Frankly, I agree that dealerships should not be issuing certifications for a motorcycle endorsement (e.g. H-D's RIDER EDGE) but your post pretty much blamed all the MSF RiderCoaches and implied that they are incompetent or (worse) corrupt.

Just out of curiosity, Andy, have you attended any MSF course?
 
Wow were was I when this all went down?  :p :-*

No it'll never change and even though inadequate the current system of education needs more support or it will only get worse not better.

While I appreciate your zeal and eludification on police training I believe most motorcycle education programs are hanging on by a thread because no one in government or education give a rats arse.

Its the way of the world.  And I do have a great deal of respect and I even am in awe when I see a motorcop in action. Splendid and extremely well trained and practiced art in the working.

Now for you to call the BRC or ERC or any other beginner MC class a joke give me the impression you are either ignorant or arrogant to their intent, perhaps both.  What would you have these programs do?  What would the public accept? What would the governing authorities support?  These course are not designed to be the catch all, they are designed to be a beginning, certainly not enough, but how much training is anyone really willing to accept? To pay for? Three days is a major commitment to most folks. A week would be insane and any longer a school would not be sustainable.

As I too am an instructor I know we are only covering the basics and noboby comes out of a beginning or even an intermediate course with more than a modicum of skills but more so a greater appreciation of the risks involved and at least a basis on how to manage those risks. 

Those that get it, get it. Those that don't well, they don't. But what else can we do?  There are bad cops and good cops. Those who care and those who can care less. The hundrerth graduating medical student from a class of one hundred is still called doctor, right?  Passing any course, joke or not, does not make anyone an expert.  The program I teach is not a walk in the park or a free pass to an endorsement but it is a basis, a start.

Perhaps doing nothing is better? How?

Comparring police training programs to a BRC is akin to saying intregal calculus is far harder than multiplication tables. Isn't that obvious?  Tell us something we don't already know.


 
Yes I have attended an MSF class (1995) but it was D.O.D. sponsored and the curriculum was apparently not what it is now or being taught now. All the provided course materials were printed on DOD or USAF forms and videos were all made by the DOD. I used to think that everyone got the same thing but just a state funded version of the same exact course but I am now thinking I was wrong. So speaking from my experience, the MSF and police motor school cover the same material only the police version is a little more in depth but presented in a much more time constrained package (despite being a 80 hour course). millsan1 stated he walked away from his ERC course, "not gaining anything from the class". He said the instructors are good but the material covered was nothing new (new compared to what?, I assumned nothing since it was his first time attending a class). This is what I've been hearing from a lot of riders lately about the MSF courses nowadays, mostly recently with FL making the BRC mandatory and almost every dealership offering the class free when you purchase a bike, so what does this mean? I don't have any preconcieved notions about the instructors and their abilities/effectiveness themselves but have to wonder about the course material and what exactly being presented today especially when they don't seem to line up with my experience. Did our elected officials yet again write a new curriculum for the class after making the class mandatory in FL for an MC endorsement. What am I supposed to think when more people are taking the course (because its mandatory now and the increased popularity of MC lately that noone can deny), leaving them with comments like this or worse deathly afraid of the very machine they are riding. I see people everyday on bikes that have no business on them when this should not be the case now that the class is mandatory. It APPEARS that it has become just another layer of bureaucratic red tape that has been inadvertantly speed up into a revolving door process.
If MSF is that concerned for how their course is taught, what happened, how did this happen, what's going on?
 
Andy said:
S Smith said:
MSF only researches, develops and implements training curriculum and standards.  Implementation is left up to the individual states. 
Click to expand...
If MSF has that concerned for how their course is taught, what happened, how did this happen?
Click to expand...


They set standards for the way the core material is presented.  I don't know how it works in FL, but here the state runs a quality assurance program randomly auditing training site sponsors and instructors to make sure they are meeting MSF & state standards. I thought this was a requirement, but the effectiveness is based on the emphasis put on it by the state's safety program administration.

There seems to be a conflict of interest when a dealer is also a provider/sponsor of a safety course, mandatory or not.  It would be like car dealers giving driving tests or dive shops providing SCUBA training. 

There will always be people who are on the edge or dangerous in what they do no matter how much training they receive.  I'm sure you see it on the job, in the military, when driving a car, or participating in other sports.  All that can be done is to provide basic training to teach a basic set of skills.  Since you like the cop analogies... I'm sure you learned a lot more about your career after academy and field training. The same is  true with Beginner riding courses - Most of the real learning comes with experience.
 
Andy,

First let me say I teach in Oregon, Oregon has a mandatory system in place as well. Oregon also changed their program several years ago to better reflect and address the need of real world riding to produce a better program and hopefully a safer student as a result. I can not speak for the MSF classes or their regime of training from the position of a trainer. I have however taken two ERC classes in the past and have to agree with you that from the position of an experienced rider it offered me nothing that I already did not know and have the skill set for. However I was able to valid this through their observations and to me that was worth the effort.  I would not recommend an ERC for anyone who is currently riding or has only had a very brief hiatus. For those wishing to advance their street skills I recommend just that, an advanced course designed to improve the riders cornering, stoppings, metal awareness, and finese skills required to safely operate a motorcycle in the dangerous world known as street riding.

As far as course ciriculum goes, the basic course is, well basic! Not much more can be adopted or absorbed without totally overwhelming the students.  And at least in Oregons case the IRT (MSF's ERC) is designed to be a refresher and hopefully a re-training for those who have not rode in a while.

As this is a state supported and sanctioned program we also maintain a very high level of standards. We get audited and are also observed on a regular basis. instructors also attend yearly training sessions to improve techniques and teaching methods. The program is in a state of constant evolution always looking to get better.

You seem quite passionate about the subject for this I applaud you, but to some extent you are preaching to the choir.  I suggest you use your passion and find out who is in charge of the program on the Florida State level and see if you can get an audience with them, (sounds like the Pope right!) or at least send a letter to the same affect asking for a response. I assume there is a Governors council on motorcycle safety or some other body of officials who might also benefit from your perspective.

Best of luck and please let us know if you are able to bend an "official" ear or two!
 
Thanks for the responses, it puts me at ease knowing that there are states that actually do monitor and audit and I bet for the cops they recognize and officially certify their motor officers. Here in FL the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement (FDLE) Criminal Justice Training and Standards (CJST) Board don't recognize police motor school as being a high enough liability area to require state level certifications for individual officers to be kept on record in Tallahassee. But hey, you must take a state approved class to be officially certified by the state in order to legally operate a radar gun or a breathalizer and to have it admissable in court. Hell before the U.S. Congress passed the police conceal carry law (can carry outside their home state as long as they are active or retired cops with I.D.), firearms qualifications were not mandatory yearly like they are now here. FL only required cops qualify on firearms at the academy, then left things up to the individual agency dept policy and like everything else, there were more than a few small ones that got by without it completely just to save a few bucks. I don't know why finding these things out still surprises me but it is what it is I guess. I hope I didn't offend or upset anyone, like I said it was not my intention to and am sorry if I did. As for getting things changed here, there are at least two Master Police Motor Instructors that I know of that have been fighting with FDLE to get them to make the motor course mandatory for cops before they can operate a motorcycle in a law enforcement capacity. So far it's been falling on deaf ears, even though they estimate about 98% of the law enforcement agencies in FL already make the course mandatory for their motors. So it's nothing more than dotting an "i" or crossing a "t" and there's still resistance for some reason. If anything changes I'll def let everyone know.
 
I can agree there is a big gap between the BRC/ERC coureses and a motor officier course. There are also some "super bike" type schools that have courses, but I interpret them as pretty much racing school for the street. Yes they can improve your skills in some areas. Not really knocking them either. Other than there is quite a large gap between these and an BRC course.

Here in Western WA there are several courses available to directly address this.

1. Puget Sound Safety
Has a program called Advanced Street Skills. There is a level 1 thru level 4, each designed to be a one day course. They teach you at the track, to get you away from traffic and have lots of room. But it is a "Street" course, ran at street speeds designed to improve street skills. It was designed specifically to fill in this gap and give riders real street tactics.

2. Puget Sound Safety
Also teaches Lee Parks Total Control Training. This is a two day course that is really nice. I have heard nothing but good from this program. And I think its can be found all over the country.

3. There is a guy in Renton who is an ex Motor Officer Trainer, Instructor, 27 years on the force, etc. He teaches a 40 hour "ride like a cop" program. Its 4 - 10 hour days, and very small 6 max class sizes. Designed for the civilian market. For $1095 ( 2011 prices ) you get the training and get to ride their retired  police bikes. They know your gonna drop them. Why have to #### up your own equipment. Its $795 if you really want to ride your own bike. But for $300 why risk your own ride when you can drops theirs and its included. REading between the lines I would guess if you crash and really #### it up, its gonna cost you. But if you have your classic CDA we have here, they are covering the cost. Its included in the $300. So is wearing our their clutches, etc. Its a bargin.
 
As someone who just submitted his app to 'try" to become a MSF instructor here in NJ I am finding this thread very intriguing.

When I first took my motorcycle road "test" (and to call it a test was a VERY big stretch of the word) it LITERALLY consisted of me getting on the bike,  riding up the street 500 feet, making a U turn, coming back, then 2 circles left, 2 circles right, 2 figure 8's and I was done.  the "examiner" literally stood there and watched me with a clipboard and it was over in less then 2 minutes.

Compared to that, the skills evaluation I was given in the MSF beginners course was MUCH more comprehensive (and this was the old course before they revamped it).  Yes it is nowhere nearly as comprehensive as the Police course, but it's better then being taught by a friend.

As for the ERC, I take one every other year or so,  IMHO it provides me an opportunity for me to PRACTICE some of the skills I only use some of the time (When was the last time any of us went to a parking lot and really practiced maximum braking or stopping in a curve?)  Is it as comprehensive as the Police course? No,  but it's good practice.

Having also  taken the Lee Parks course, I have to say I found it to be VERY helpful as well in that it helped me gain confidence in my tires, skills and my machine, but it focuses more on cornering technique then slow speed maneuvering or hard braking etc.  But even then some of what he teaches really doesn't belong on the street IMHO (He teaches you to "hang" off the bike racer style for cornering, not really needed on the street IMHO, if anyone doesn't believe that, I invite them to TRY and follow Cap'n Bob on a ride  :) )

I would love to take the police courses, but here in NJ, they really frown on teaching that to anyone who doesn't have a badge... 

Looking forward to reading more about this :)




 
Interesting comment on the Lee Parks course. Myself I am taking the 40hr ride like a cop program next summer. Already budgeting my $1200 bucks for it. I contacted them last night and they will have the 2012 schedule out in December and promised to add me to the mailing list so I know when it comes out.

They also have this in Portland as well as Seattle ( renton ). In anycase how about 5 other of you NWCOG guys get together with me and will have a COG class. Again that I can see its Thurs-Fri-Sat-Sun from 8:00am - 6:30pm in Renton for the Seattle location.
 
Sly, is this something anyone can take? Or are you an officer?

I really would love to take the police course, but I don't think it's offered anywhere here unless U are a cop...I am one who always wants to learn more about riding,  anything I can learn, even if it's one small skill I didn't have before makes me a safer rider IMHO. I even want to re-take the Lee Parks course on the C-14 (I took it on the FJR last)  I found it to be very well laid out and well worth the time/money..It says it will make you a better rider and that you will notice the difference right away, and for me it did exactly that even if I am not using his exact cornering technique,  for me it helped me gain confidence that I was lacking (in my tires, and in my machine etc) which made me a better, safer rider.  But I will still take the ERC's every other year or so just to practice my skills, and I really believe that ANY training a rider takes is better then no training...
 
No I am not an officer. Daughter active city police in her home town and other family members retired. But me, no. I am the black sheep of the family.

This is open to anyone. Here is a link.
http://www.northwest-motorcycle.com/index.htm

It says:
The curriculum is taken directly from the first week of the King County, WA sheriff's department basic motor-officer curriculum
The course focuses on development of street survival skills. We teach both low and high speed skills for motorcycle control



 
You could fly out here for the long weekend. Adds a bit to the cost, but you would not have to ride out here. They provide the motorcycle. Bring your helmet and gear. Get a local COGGER to put you up for the long weekend.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top