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Learning Your C14

razorsedge

razorsedge

Scooter
Here's what I've learned after 3k miles with my C14. Perhaps most of you already know this , but I'm going to share this for the new owners. 1. A lot of guys complain about the slack in the rear break. Here's what I learned. It's designed to trail break without setting you on your head. Take the total linked ABS OFF ! and the system will let you use breaking in a more sport bike application. switch it to full ABS and you better be ready for the front end to kick in quick  . 2 . Eco mode DOES work if you drive reasonable. If your above 80mph you might as well forget about it . 3. If you think your C14 doesn't have quite enough power to raise the frint end up or leave a rubber streak down the road ? Take your traction control OFF by holding the traction control button till the yellow light stays on on your dash. Then hold on because your going to see a notable power difference. WOW . 4. GO ahead and order some new tires. The factory tires wont get you very far if you really like to ride. Ive got 3800 miles . My back tire is done , and my front is showing wear.
5. Keep the maching in higher RPM's if you don't want shifting problems. I've found coming from a cruiser world, we like to shift in lower RPM's . 6. Last but not least, This is the most amazing maching I ever owned. It's performance level is unbelievable. Get out there and enjoy .  :motonoises:
 
Can you turn the linked braking off? Also, I can definitely tell the bike shifts a lot better in high rpm's than low!
 
Timbo said:
Can you turn the linked braking off? Also, I can definitely tell the bike shifts a lot better in high rpm's than low!
Click to expand...

I would love to know this as well. I only have 40 miles on mine but can tell already I am going to HATE the linked brakes. :38:
 
You can't turn the linking off. I think the OP is refering to the Lo/Hi modes, in Hi mode the rear brake grabs the front brake as well.

As for the other learned items...I need to go try the T/C one. I didn't know it robs power, thought it only effected power when it sensed a slip.
 
elektra said:
If I read your post correctly you have the traction control activation wrong. It defaults of OFF when you start the bike up. To activate the traction control, hold the computer trigger in till the light comes on. When the light is on the traction control is activated. Here are a couple of additional tips to new C14 riders. When changing your oil, first dump the oil and change the filter with the bike on the center stand to allow for a 5qt drain pan underneath. Do not fully tighten the drain plug. Tilt the bike on the side stand and remove the plug. Use a shallow pan that will fit and about 300ml oil left in the motor will drain out, then torque the drain plug. If you do not do this and add the prescribed 4.7 qts of fresh oil you will overfill. In addition, when you come off a ride and the windshield is buggy, hold the windshield contro-up button when you turn off the motor. The windshield will stay in the uppermost position and aid in cleaning the windshield and nose. Also, the linked braking system is always activated, there is no way to turn it completely off. However there are two levels of rear to front interaction. One has a much earlier and pronounced front braking assist.
Click to expand...


Traction control is automaticly activated when you crank your bike. the yellow light will flash on and off meaning its ON ! If you hold the button. Traction control is OFF !  As for the linked breaking , The percentages of 80/20 or 60/40 on the breaking ? I don't know. What I do know is this. I called Kawasaki and this is what they told me. The two settings on the breaking work like this. ( on 2010 and up ) When total ABS in enguaged, when you hit the back breaks, the front kick in heavy. When you go to the other selection the back break will feel slack or you have to push down a lot more to get break. this is designed for trail breaking. If you slam on the back break hard it senses it and the front break kicks in. I trail break and I never felt the front break kick in once.  I've found this to be the case.
 
The engine has an extremely wide torque band - what sort of troubles are you having with shifting in lower RPM's?  (With the redline that the engine has this could be relative.) 

Where you short-shifting and bogging down?  Getting some engine knock?  I ask because you're giving a solution but haven't explained where you saw a problem.

As for the ABS, the setting will also depend on what sort of load you have on the bike.  First setting is designed for solo riding, second setting for two-up.
 
elektra said:
Ttouble-You are right sir. I must have been dyslectic on that one right from the beginning. The brain would just assume the light to show the function is on. Maybe that's being too logical. Thanks for pointing that one out. You mean to tell me I'v been riding this damn thing all along with the traction control on? Still can't believe it. And it defaults to the on position. Damn.

Ensoniq-I tend to ride this bike way conservative. I guess that's a sign of old age. In fact, 3-5k is normal range for me and never hints at lugging. Cruising mountain passes in 4th can be pretty thrilling, you don't have to use high rpms unless you really want to see something scary.
Click to expand...

I LIKE SCAREY !  :motonoises:
 
Yea I agree about the traction control light blinking on and off would mean OFF to me to, but NOOOO ! I learned this in a test sunday as we were riding. I found when the light is ON . No traction control and the bike will run at peak performance. BE READY cause it will come up off the ground. It's performance in high RPMs and shooting out of curves is mind blowing. With traction control ON, you will be surprised at the power difference when running hard. Guess that back tire spins more than you would think .

Hey thanks for all these tips guys. Im learning a LOT. Keep it coming. That trick with the windshield was GREAT !
 
Oh ! One other thing. When your fuel light blinks telling you you need fuel, you still have one gallon in the tank. I tried this to see how accurate it was and its right on the nose . You got a Aux power wire on the left front under your glove box thats ready and already fuzed .
Your glove box is auto lock till you turn the key on.
 
Now you guys have me scared to try the bike without traction control on!  :-\ I did have it activate on me one time, making a left turn and hit some gravel in the intersection and the rear wheel started to slide. It fixed me right up.

I'm surprised that the TC will affect power as much as people are saying. I know it'll help keep the front wheel down, but I haven't noticed a lack of power coming out of curves and stuff. Even if I hit 2nd gear hard and run it up thru 8k, the front end feels light but the bike is taking off like a rocket. I'll have to try it without TC on and do some controlled testing. 
 
I find it hard to fantom that the TC makes such a big differance. YEs I understand that it would be good in rain and such. But I never found the non-TC C14 to be such an animal. I didn't have a problem with the front wheel coming off the ground. I didn't have a problem with the rear wheel constantly spinning. And the C14 in stock form is not real powerful below 4-5K RPM's anyway. The bike is more of a pussy cat that need to be let loose  with much higher RPM's to have to worry about it becoming a lion. So swithc it off and give her a try.
 
The traction control system has no impact on the available power from the bike unless a wheel spins and it activates. Under normal riding conditions, its seamless and you won't even know it's there. Turning off the traction control will not result in more available power from the engine, but it will enable you to lift the front wheel without engaging the TC system. You'll get a blinking light and a message on the dash when it engages, so you'll know when that happens. Once it activates, you can hold the throttle wide open and the engine will basically ignore your commands, and power won't return until several seconds after the wheel stops spinning.

It also is not the same system used on sport bikes, and is not programmed to prevent wheel spin coming out of a corner. It doesn't react fast enough to do that. The way it is set up is to prevent wheel spin mainly at low speeds when starting out, like on a slick road or on gravel. Some of Kawasaki's new sport bikes (2011 ZX-10R) have a newly released version of TC (S-KTRC Sport-Kawasaki Traction Control) that will prevent wheel spin on corner exits, and it is much faster reacting than the KTRC on the C14. It was developed in the race bike world, and has just now shown up on production models. It's vastly improved from what we have on the Concours.

You also can not turn off either the linked braking or the ABS. As Stewart said, you can only switch it from high combined to low combined mode.
 
Figured out last night that the bike gets better fuel mileage (at least with me on it. 6 feet 220lbs) with the windshield in it's uppermost position. (stock windshield).

Also confirmed I HATE "coactive" brakes. I WILL be finding a way to "unlink" them and retain ABS. There has to be a way.
 
Kinetic1 said:
Also confirmed I HATE "coactive" brakes. I WILL be finding a way to "unlink" them and retain ABS. There has to be a way.
Click to expand...

I won't say it's impossible, but from looking at how they are linked I don't see how it can be easily done without also disabling the ABS, since they are linked internally within the ABS motor assy.

 

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Fred_Harmon_TX said:
The traction control system has no impact on the available power from the bike unless a wheel spins and it activates. Under normal riding conditions, its seamless and you won't even know it's there. Turning off the traction control will not result in more available power from the engine, but it will enable you to lift the front wheel without engaging the TC system. You'll get a blinking light and a message on the dash when it engages, so you'll know when that happens. Once it activates, you can hold the throttle wide open and the engine will basically ignore your commands, and power won't return until several seconds after the wheel stops spinning.

It also is not the same system used on sport bikes, and is not programmed to prevent wheel spin coming out of a corner. It doesn't react fast enough to do that. The way it is set up is to prevent wheel spin mainly at low speeds when starting out, like on a slick road or on gravel. Some of Kawasaki's new sport bikes (2011 ZX-10R) have a newly released version of TC (S-KTRC Sport-Kawasaki Traction Control) that will prevent wheel spin on corner exits, and it is much faster reacting than the KTRC on the C14. It was developed in the race bike world, and has just now shown up on production models. It's vastly improved from what we have on the Concours.

You also can not turn off either the linked braking or the ABS. As Stewart said, you can only switch it from high combined to low combined mode.
Click to expand...


It all has to do with how you run as to weather the TC effects the power. Under normal riding you wont notice, but if you run in higher RPM's or on the edge so to speak like we do, you notice it BIGTIME. It makes a HUGE difference.

As for traction control saving you in curves. OH YES BIGTIME ! You might want to give Kawasaki a call on that one. But your right about it not being tuned like the super sport bike TC . Its much more sensitive but even yet it don't save those boys if you lay it over to far with throttle ..

I've had the TC save me more times than I can count in curves. I can feel it. Just this weekend in Camdon where there's some searious twisties, I came around one curve totally dedicated with no return and there was some sand. I felt the bike slide and the TC caught it. The dash flashed. Ive seen it come on on a dirt road at 30 mph. We run hard in curves. I've felt it. it's saved me. But in no way allow yourself to totally trust the TC thinking it will stop low sideing or high sideing because I was lucky. I would love to know the degree of sensitivity on the C14 VS a super sport bike.

The point I was trying to make about power VS TC is this, With your TC on, your less likely to spin. Your TC will control that so there's a little power withholding. If you think im wrong, take your C 14 out and do a first gear roll on full throttle and go through a couple gears. Then take the TC off and see if you don't feel the difference. It's very noticible to me.

But I do agree with normal driving, your not going to notice much of anything I've been talking about. But if you light up that rocket, YOU WILL NOTICE !  My 2c
 
Trouble said:
With your TC on, your less likely to spin. Your TC will control that so there's a little power withholding.
Click to expand...

Randy,
  The engine power is ONLY limited when the Traction Control detects wheel speed mismatch between the front and rear wheel.  It does not know beforehand that the tire may slip and 'withhold' the power.  :-[
  Enjoy your bike but don't try to explain it.
 
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Kinetic1 said:
Also confirmed I HATE "coactive" brakes. I WILL be finding a way to "unlink" them and retain ABS. There has to be a way.
Click to expand...

I won't say it's impossible, but from looking at how they are linked I don't see how it can be easily done without also disabling the ABS, since they are linked internally within the ABS motor assy.
Click to expand...

I can't really make out the diagram all that well but maybe since they are linked in the ABS controller, maybe that is the way to do it. IE through the controller. I will have to dig into how Kawasaki gave us the teo modes then figure out how to "dial back" low mode to where it is basically off. I have all winter to tinker and a service manual on the way. :)
 
AJ,
  Get a head start, the wiring diagrams are here on COG in the Tech pages section.  http://www.cog-online.org/clubportal/clubstatic.cfm?clubID=1328&pubmenuoptID=30312

  I too thought the linking could be refined but gave up after studying the diagrams.  IF we didn't have the assisted feature, it would be easier but those little motors complicate things a lot.  If you wanted to just delete KACT completely, you could plumb the brakes around the system or install the 08/09 ABS unit and deal with all the interface problems.

Good luck
 
Kinetic1 said:
I can't really make out the diagram all that well but maybe since they are linked in the ABS controller, maybe that is the way to do it. IE through the controller. I will have to dig into how Kawasaki gave us the teo modes then figure out how to "dial back" low mode to where it is basically off. I have all winter to tinker and a service manual on the way. :)
Click to expand...

I've got an idea how it might be accomplished, but I'm not going to post it yet until I know more about what other impacts it has, particularly on the ABS.
 
KawiMick said:
Trouble said:
With your TC on, your less likely to spin. Your TC will control that so there's a little power withholding.
Click to expand...

Randy,
  The engine power is ONLY limited when the Traction Control detects wheel speed mismatch between the front and rear wheel.  It does not know beforehand that the tire may slip and 'withhold' the power.  :-[
  Enjoy your bike but don't try to explain it.
Click to expand...


:-[ GEEESH ! lol  . AT NORMAL RIDING, your not going to tell anything. But IF you run on the edge or full throttle you WILL TELL the difference. Now do you get it ?  That's what I was talking about. Under normal conditions your really not going to tell anything. The wheel is NOT spinning under extreem power. Crank that throttle down and that back tire clips and lays rubber down. the TC picks that up. Tell you what, Roll out of a curve and lay down on the throttle with TC on and you will roll right out with nice power. Now roll out of that same curve layed down and roll on it with TC off and your back wheel will power slide. THATS EXTRA POWER ! Ive done it.

Perhaps I should of said this . You can tell the difference FULL THROTTLE !  Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
Also confirmed I HATE "coactive" brakes. I WILL be finding a way to "unlink" them and retain ABS. There has to be a way.

There is a way. Buy an 09 with ABS  :)
 
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Kinetic1 said:
I can't really make out the diagram all that well but maybe since they are linked in the ABS controller, maybe that is the way to do it. IE through the controller. I will have to dig into how Kawasaki gave us the teo modes then figure out how to "dial back" low mode to where it is basically off. I have all winter to tinker and a service manual on the way. :)
Click to expand...

I've got an idea how it might be accomplished, but I'm not going to post it yet until I know more about what other impacts it has, particularly on the ABS.
Click to expand...

Cut the Red wire, or was that Blue...no go with Red...um hold on, its Kawa..cut the Green one.
 
Stewart said:
Fred_Harmon_TX said:
Kinetic1 said:
I can't really make out the diagram all that well but maybe since they are linked in the ABS controller, maybe that is the way to do it. IE through the controller. I will have to dig into how Kawasaki gave us the teo modes then figure out how to "dial back" low mode to where it is basically off. I have all winter to tinker and a service manual on the way. :)
Click to expand...

I've got an idea how it might be accomplished, but I'm not going to post it yet until I know more about what other impacts it has, particularly on the ABS.
Click to expand...


Cut ALL the wires. Problem solved .  :)

Cut the Red wire, or was that Blue...no go with Red...um hold on, its Kawa..cut the Green one.
Click to expand...
 
Axxman said:
Also confirmed I HATE "coactive" brakes. I WILL be finding a way to "unlink" them and retain ABS. There has to be a way.

There is a way. Buy an 09 with ABS  :)
Click to expand...

:)
 
Fred,
I think I see what you are looking at......... further investigation is needed to determine the effect on the ABS.....that may kill rear ABS. I need to print the diagram so I can look at the whole thing at once.
 
I think it can be accomplished by simply pulling one fuse, but I need to test it first. I also suspect it will trigger an error code and light.
 
I think a code and error light is a given. Maybe a switch installed on that signal wire so you could turn it off when you want to play but back on for normal riding. ;)
 
Fred,
When TC kicks in, doesn't it basically just close the secondary flies which steals just enough power to stop the back tire from slipping? Or, does it also affect the timing or something?
 
wally_games said:
Fred,
When TC kicks in, doesn't it basically just close the secondary flies which steals just enough power to stop the back tire from slipping? Or, does it also affect the timing or something?
Click to expand...

Wally,
  It's progressive, it starts with the secondary throttle plates, then it removes timing advance and finally it removes fuel.  That is why it's so smooth and easy to live with.
 
TC Rocks !  I hear a lot of guys talking about unhooking linked ABS and taking butterflies out. The very reason I bought the C14 was the safety featurs like the TC and linked ABS . Wait till you get in a situation where you have to slam on breaks. Few people are good enogh to react that fast efficianty. And the linked traction control is out of this world. If you don't like these features, go get on a Harley and ride around a while, you will be GLAD you have them.
 
You're sort of mixing apples and oranges.  (Linked TC?)

There are braking systems out there that incorporate ABS but don't have linked brakes.  Riders that don't particularly like linked brakes prefer to have control over the rear brakes under certain conditions independent of the front brakes.  Depending on riding experience, this is preferred. (I'm in this camp - I like to tap the rear brakes on wet roads to bleed off a little speed as necessary before entering a turn, etc.)
 
:rotflmao:  RE: Linked TC  :rotflmao:  A newbe for ya. lol  . I had to laugh at myself on that one. I understand some don't like the linked ABS and I understand the reasons. I've had to many bad experiences where I hit the breaks on wet roads and went all over the place on my Harley's . The breaking on those things are the worst . I've also been pulled out in front of to many times and did all I could to stop. Linked ABS rules in those situations for sure.
 
rcannon409 said:
ABS is great and I have applied it on my 08.  Well worth having and I'm glad its there.  Actually, thats an understatement.  I considered selling my non-abs equipped after feeling my c14 in action. So I'll reserve the right to be dumb (for me) about not considering a linked systems advantages. I felt abs was a waste and resented having to buy a bike with abs until I tried it.

Is there any advantage to the linked system other than for someone who does not use the front brake? Linking would force a person to use at least SOME front.

Do you suppose liability reasons prevent an adjustable system since we all know the perfect brake set-up. And Kawi, if your listening, I vote for more durable rotors rather than electronics.  I've not tried traction control, except some very basic dirt bike systems, and I'm all in for that.
Click to expand...
 
rcannon409 said:
Is there any advantage to the linked system other than for someone who does not use the front brake? Linking would force a person to use at least SOME front.
Click to expand...

Roland,
  The main advantage is like you thought, it's for those who nail the rear brake at the first sign of danger.  It's a reaction you have to practice NOT to do.  With a passenger in High Combined mode, you get ALL the braking the bike can provide and you get it RIGHT NOW.  That's a good thing. 
  If you watch the early demo videos, a guy riding on a marginal surface activates both front and rear ABS with a stomp on the rear brake pedal.  I was impressed, had only had one hand on the bars.
 
KawiMick said:
rcannon409 said:
Is there any advantage to the linked system other than for someone who does not use the front brake? Linking would force a person to use at least SOME front.
Click to expand...

Roland,
  The main advantage is like you thought, it's for those who nail the rear brake at the first sign of danger.  It's a reaction you have to practice NOT to do.  With a passenger in High Combined mode, you get ALL the braking the bike can provide and you get it RIGHT NOW.  That's a good thing. 
  If you watch the early demo videos, a guy riding on a marginal surface activates both front and rear ABS with a stomp on the rear brake pedal.  I was impressed, had only had one hand on the bars.
Click to expand...

Amen ! Perfect safety feature and could save your life .
 
Trouble, I dont know if I would agree with that, but I do see your point.  I don think a c14 is the first bike for most people.  If not, they a rider has already learned different techniques for the brakes.  Now, the c14 forces someone into linked brakes.  Its not as if a 2008 concours does not have the ability to use front and rear brakes at the same time,  they are not linked together.

I'm not sure I am ready to give up front brake power if I choose not to use my rear brake. 
 
what I know is this and this has been proven. All of us mostly drive cars. then we enjoy our bikes when we can. We've trained ourselves to slam that foot down automaticly in a instant situation. Few will hit the front break first unless trained. Ive watched to many motorcycle accidents and near accidents because of instant reactions. People don't realize their doing it till its to late and most times all you have is instant reaction time. The linked ABS stopps that and can save your life FAST.  This is my point. Ive been riding all my life and I still find myself wanting to slam that rear break out of habbit in a tight situation. It's hard to break when in a automobile a lot.

I hear a lot of guys talk smack how they have total control over their breaking. Then we go out and ride and I see them going into a curve to hot and eat that back break up. Or a car pulls out to close and again the back tire lights up. I REFUSE to even use the back break on my C14 now just because of that. I FORCE myself to use the front in the hopes I will use it in an emergency. And take my word for it, you can talk all the talk you want to, but ! you never know how you will react till something happens. I've had situations five times in three years. One of them I got ran over. If I had been using my front breaks I wouldn't of been hit. The linked ABS is PERFECT for me. The question one has to ask themselves, IS IT WORTH IT TO TAKE ANY CHANCE ON BREAKING AND MY LIFE ?  Just my 2c
 
rcannon409 said:
I'm not sure I am ready to give up front brake power if I choose not to use my rear brake.
Click to expand...

Roland,
  I think you've got it wrong, you don't lose ANY braking power with the linked brakes.  The front lever applies pressure to both front calipers, in either mode.

 
"what I know is this and this has been proven" - No offense, but this hasn't been proven, its your observation and therefore your opinion, not fact.

Any rider worth their salt, even in a panic stop will grab for front brake and apply rear brake as well.  Its what I've done on my own for 30 years - I can't imagine I'm that much different than the majority of riders out there.  Its even taught in the most basic riding courses.  (The usual percentages given are 70% / 30%, Front / Rear.)

ABS doesn't stop the bike any faster than a bike with non-ABS brakes.  In fact, ABS vehicles have longer stopping distances even with maximum braking applied. (This is even mentioned in motorcycle and car manuals.)  All ABS does is prevent the brakes from locking up the wheel and potentially causing skidding and loss of control on slick surfaces. 

If you're in a "hot curve" you don't want to apply heavy front brake - you utilize the rear brakes - a method called "trail braking".  Prevents dive of the front end and loss of control.  (Same concept applies when dirt-biking going down a steep hill. Lock up the front end and you'll go ass over tea-kettle.)

In your examples of panic stopping, just because the rear tire is "lighting up" (that's usually meant for rapid acceleration not for braking) doesn't mean the rider isn't applying proper front brake.  It just means the rear brake is locking up as the majority of weight from the bike and rider are diving forward making the load on the rear brake less which increases the likelihood of rear lock up.  (There's also more contact patch on a rear tire - more braking friction, again leading to more opportunity for rear lock up.)

I can't speak for the other sport bike / sport touring guys on this Forum but far from "talking smack", I'm talking from 30 years of sport riding experience.  You've said several times that you've just come over from Harley's and have never ridden sport bikes.  Your experiences on that type of bike with notoriously poor front brakes may have something to do with your experience on you new Connie.



 
If you dont lose front brake power when you chose not to use rear brake, I could probably live with it.  The old Honda system had pistons in the front caliper that were directly linked to the rear brake.  If you did not use the rear brake, you lost use of the pistons. 

But, what EnsoniqDude said about trail braking is how I like to deal with curves and I would miss being able to do that.  I'll reserve the right to be a fool .  The new system was designed by the same people who gave us abs on the 08. The abs system I disliked and resented until I used it in a panic situation. Now I dont want  a streetbike without it.
 
I wasn't sure if I liked abs until I made a panic stop. I
really like it now. No sliding. Just a good solid stop.
me and a deer were trying to spar handlebars to horns
I could tell you his eye color. I really like abs now.

Chuck 08 abs
 
FWIW...

not to nit pick, but >>you utilize the rear brakes - a method called "trail braking"<<
actually, trail braking is any braking, mostly front, that you do while leaned over looking for the apex of a turn, every racer does it, its a fine art to learn and do well.  most dont-me included.

2nd, if a person has been riding 'all his life' and during a panic stop still slams on the rear brake...well, IMHO, youve just been practicing old bad habits really.  i havnt been riding all my life, only about 20 years now, but the best things that i have learned about piloting a motorcycle were learned at CLASS school, STAR school, and Keith Code superbike school.  And that is that 80-90% of braking is/should be done with the front alone due to weight transfer and stopping power.  Thus, if a rider had learned that, and practiced it religiously, then any stop, panic or normal, would be performed with the front brakes.  Linked brakes or unlinked, squeeze and modulate the front and get it done.  And in a panic, allow the linked to work the rear, or start pressing your right foot down to help shorten the stopping distance.

Car drivers or not, i dont mean to pick on anyone.  I only mean to say to the group, that if you have the time and the resources, try to get yourselves and your bikes to a good advanced riding school, you'd be amazed at what you DON'T know about piloting a motorcycle.  Then you surely would learn what your bike's advanced systems can do to actually help you when you need them.
 
Again FWIW and in my opinion,  Sometimes all the practice in the world won't keep the tires from either locking up or not slowing at it's maximum and allowing control to avoid an accident. Proper techniques is always an advantage in your safety. But sometimes it just isn't enough. It is impossible to have the perfect blend between maximum braking and not locking every time. Throw in emergency control and you have a losing combination not having ABS. I have been on both sides of this debate. And I freely admit that I use to be ignorant enough to think that I was as good or better than ABS brakes could ever be. Since then I got over that attitude after not being better and now having a permanent reminder of it. Then after having ABS save my life a couple of years later. I have come to my senses. Yes braking can be quicker on a non-ABS bike. But the positives of ABS far outweigh the negatives. And I am the first person to admit the I hate too much unnecessary technology on bikes. ( And truthfully, that's why I don't own a C14 any more) But in my opinion in the case of ABS, it is worth the extra weight and complexity. It may save your life. Even if  you still think that your better than ABS. I've been there not long ago!

As far as trail braking again IMO. Yes the front brake will compress the front suspension going into a turn, allowing for faster entrances and cornering. But slightly dragging the rear can also help the bike turn and settle down the chassis in the turn as well. It also can slow you down slightly upon too hot of an entrance to a turn without the standing up of the bike that the front brake at that point is most likely to cause. Thus possibly allowing someone to make a turn that may have wound up running too wide. Either way, I agree that any these techniques should be an art that is learned slowly and properly. Trying to apply these techniques as a beginner at full tilt boogie speeds is a recipe for disaster.
 
Cap'n Bob said:
Again FWIW and in my opinion,  Sometimes all the practice in the world won't keep the tires from either locking up or not slowing at it's maximum and allowing control to avoid an accident. Proper techniques is always an advantage in your safety. But sometimes it just isn't enough. It is impossible to have the perfect blend between maximum braking and not locking every time. Throw in emergency control and you have a losing combination not having ABS. I have been on both sides of this debate. And I freely admit that I use to be ignorant enough to think that I was as good or better than ABS brakes could ever be. Since then I got over that attitude after not being better and now having a permanent reminder of it. Then after having ABS save my life a couple of years later. I have come to my senses. Yes braking can be quicker on a non-ABS bike. But the positives of ABS far outweigh the negatives. And I am the first person to admit the I hate too much unnecessary technology on bikes. ( And truthfully, that's why I don't own a C14 any more) But in my opinion in the case of ABS, it is worth the extra weight and complexity. It may save your life. Even if  you still think that your better than ABS. I've been there not long ago!

As far as trail braking again IMO. Yes the front brake will compress the front suspension going into a turn, allowing for faster entrances and cornering. But slightly dragging the rear can also help the bike turn and settle down the chassis in the turn as well. It also can slow you down slightly upon too hot of an entrance to a turn without the standing up of the bike that the front brake at that point is most likely to cause. Thus possibly allowing someone to make a turn that may have wound up running too wide. Either way, I agree that any these techniques should be an art that is learned slowly and properly. Trying to apply these techniques as a beginner at full tilt boogie speeds is a recipe for disaster.
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VERY WELL SAID !

Being it from the Harley world or what ever world, I have buried friends that thought they knew breaking. After my accident I used to do a lot of motorcycle accident analysis in Florida. You can get the information at the FHP . Cost you $1.00 Pr report .  In almost every situation, there was this long black streak of rubber where the accident accured . That didn't happen from a front break. We react in funny ways we don't even realize in an emergency situation. Im willing to bet theres lots of guys on here with good breaking skills, and some who think their good. But when the moment comes where your life is on the line , do you want to chance that on "YOUR SO CALLED SKILLS " ?  I'll take linked ABS any time.
 
Certainly not stating that bikes shouldn't have ABS.  (And my comment on stopping distance was relating to Trouble stating that ABS brakes stop a bike faster.)  I'm just not a fan of "linked brake" systems.  Even in the scenario where you panic stop and only hit the rear brake, ABS won't allow the wheel to lock up.  If you're not stopping, logic would dictate that the rider would start grabbing for some front brake. 

Technology shouldn't compensate for bad habits.  If you're riding a 650lb bike capable of 160+ speeds you should have figured out the basic by now. 

As for "trail braking" - sorry - I was referring to "drift braking" which primarily utilizes the rear brake.  (Although a relatively more complicated technique than traditional trail braking.)

Road Course training - if you can afford the time and money, definetly worth it.  Took one at Watkins Glenn many years ago on a GpZ 550. (Loved that bike.) Great fun and where I picked up the line, "you're only as fast as your confidence in your front wheel". (Specifically mentioned when the instructors were browbeating us about lean angles and curve approaches.)

 
I like the ABS part of my Connie and the ABS and traction control were part of my reason for wanting a newer model. It's just the linked part I take issue with. Coming from a racers background I KNOW I can stop faster than the computer can......SOMETIMES. It's been proven again and again in testing that a good braker can outbrake ABS some of the time but not all the time. I like the ABS, but the last thing I want when I'm coming into a corner and want to pull the bike in a little tighter with a little rear brake is to get front brake with it. This is never going to happen with me though because I don't push anywhere near hard enough on the street to want to do that. The linked part irritates me because of the way it comes in not that it comes in. If it was 100% seemles and even with rear pedal pressure it wouldn't bother me so much. It's the abrupt nature of it that I don't like. It's a recipe to be put on your head when you are coming around a corner and find the errant rodent/buick/gravel/deer in the road and want a littl rear brake and get a-lot of front. Question is, does the number of incidents it will put you on your head account for less than the number of incidents it saves your bacon? Probably. Either way I will be finding a way to disable the linked portion of the braking system. but hey, that's just me, do with yours as you wish. That is part of the great thing about our little recreational habit, we make it our own way. ;)

Also, in agreement with some of the other guys here. For those of you that haven't spent time on a racetrack and or in a riding school of some sort. DO IT NOW. The skills you will learn will save your life and make riding a more pleasurable experience all around. It's not even about being faster it's about knowing the limits and being able to stay within them that breeds the confidence that lets you lean in a little further or stop a little harder to avoid the above mentioned scenario instead of running off the road or target fixating and running into exactly what you were trying to avoid. Who knows, you may even have a little fun too.
 
As a follow up, if a bike has abs, does it really need linked brakes?  Trouble mentioned seeing "long, black streaks" at the accident scenes he's been to.  ABS would have prevented these.  Especially from the rear. 

I dont want to come across as starting, or participating in an argument, so I hope no one sees it like that.  I remember learning to ride back in 1971.  The first bit of advise given was a point to the front brake lever saying, "Never touch that, it will flip you over." 

A test program woudl be nice.  Without a "test" on my own abs equipped bike I would still be saying how much abs sucked, and that my skills were all thats needed.  Now, I'll rely on abs..thank you.

Another question, how much braking force does Kawasaki's linked system offer to the front brake (from the rear pedal)?  Is that 100%?
 
rcannon409 said:
Another question, how much braking force does Kawasaki's linked system offer to the front brake (from the rear pedal)?  Is that 100%?
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It's enough to slide the front wheel but I've never seen a percentage.  Was the advice you received in 1971, from a harley shop?  :rotflmao:
I took the basic and advanced USAF rider courses in 1969 with several refreshers by the MSF over the years.  I know, I'm dating myself but even now, with over 350K miles under my belt and several track days/classes, I STILL use a little too much rear brake at times. :(
 
Mick, I grew up in Utah and was 6 at the time.  It was many, many years later that any sort of readily available motorcycle training was available.  The advise was from the 14 year old down the street. The 14 year old told us the front brake was on there because it would stop you from rolling backwards if you could not climb  a hill.  This same 14 year old kid is now a mulch-millionaire salesman here so his explanation was a good one!

A few years later an old rider, on  Triumph, explained front brake use and insisted we practice.    The drum front braces back then did not do much. I believe the first front brake that really worked was on my 1982 Yamaha.  Double-leading shoes.  The forks would dive when you pulled the lever...amazing at the time.
 
Just to point out that Kawasaki didn't force the linked ABS system on us until the 2010 model C14. The 08-09 C14 ABS models are unlinked.
 
Cap'n Bob said:
Just to point out that Kawasaki didn't force the linked ABS system on us until the 2010 model C14. The 08-09 C14 ABS models are unlinked.
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And that is why I bought an 09 :)
 
The ONLY time I use the rear break is Trail Breaking, and that's a little difficult with the linked ABS . But for general use, the ABS is perfect .
 
I guess linked brakes are something you just have to get used to.  I came to the 2010 C14 from a Gold Wing ABS which have had linked brakes for many years.  I was very used to the linked brakes and I think the ones on the C14 are even better than the Wing.  I have braked hard in corners and don't have any problem with them.  I can see where someone having never experienced them would be a bit taken back, but in my opinion, once you get used to them they are great.
 
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