Ride technique; Are you doing this?

[connie_rider]

I was watching YouTube video's on Trail Braking and proper turn techniques this morning and came across this video. Watch the video, particularly look at the turn at the 6+ minute mark.

I've rode a lot of twisties and I think I do reasonably well in the corners.
The group I ride with do spirited rides, but we don't race nor try to set max speed runs on the streets.
ie; We generally ride 10 or so mph over the posted speed limit, play in the turns, and then go back to 10 or so mph over the posted speed limit.
Additionally, we try to be "smooth thru the turns". Not go in and out of them as fast as possible.

(Trying to explain my method correctly)
On the turns: I like to use (Mid Range) Torque over peak RPM's.
I generally use a higher gear than a gear that uses peak RPM thru the turn.
I use trail braking.
(I thought ) I go in wide, start the turn-in late, then cross the apex and let it drift out again as I accelerate out.

But, after seeing the video (particularly at the 6 minute mark) I think I may be doing it more like the green bike.
ie; Moving to the inside too soon and spending too much time near the inside of the turn.

So, how are y'all doing it? Blue or green?
Important; Be honest with yourself.
Think of what you're actually doing, not what you think you're doing.

NOTE: I've followed a lot of COGgers over the years.
I know a lot of you, and I thought about what I see the most.
After thinking about it, I honestly think that most are doing their turns more like the green bike's line.

Also, think about this before answering.
On the left turns: Is your head across the center line?
Is your wheel 1' or 4' from it?
If you're 1 ft from it, your head is in the "Danger Zone".
Again, be honest and remember; I've followed a lot of COGgers over the years and I have video's.
Ride safe, Ted

 

[ferabern143]

virage à droite, virage vert, virage à gauche, virage bleu, pour cause, j'ai toujours peur des gens en face

 

[2andblue]

I was watching YouTube video's on Trail Braking and proper turn techniques this morning and came across this video. Watch the video, particularly look at the turn at the 6+ minute mark.

I've rode a lot of twisties and I think I do reasonably well in the corners.
The group I ride with do spirited rides, but we don't race nor try to set max speed runs on the streets.
ie; We generally ride 10 or so mph over the posted speed limit, play in the turns, and then go back to 10 or so mph over the posted speed limit.
Additionally, we try to be "smooth thru the turns". Not go in and out of them as fast as possible.

(Trying to explain my method correctly)
On the turns: I like to use Torque over peak RPM's.
I generally use a higher gear than a gear that uses peak RPM thru the turn.
I use trail braking.
(I thought ) I go in wide, start the turn-in late, then cross the apex and let it drift out again as I accelerate out.

But, after seeing the video (particularly at the 6 minute mark) I think I may be doing it more like the green bike.
ie; Moving to the inside too soon and spending too much time near the inside of the turn.

So, how are y'all doing it? Blue or green?
Important; Be honest with yourself.
Think of what you're actually doing, not what you think you're doing.

NOTE: I've followed a lot of COGgers over the years.
I know a lot of you, and I thought about what I see the most.
After thinking about it, I honestly think that most are doing their turns more like the green bike's line.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: On the left turns: Is your head across the center line? Is your wheel 1' or 4' from it?
Again, be honest and remember; I've followed a lot of COGgers over the years and I have video's.

Hello Ted - Good video.

On less lengthy turns I would say we are closer to green bike as well - outside; inside; outside...

On longer turns whether tighter or longer I usually end up with a double apex and exit more like the Blue.

Then regarding using torque vs RPM - there's a great video from FortNine on RPM differences and detriments to items such as traction control. I will find and link on another thread.

Wayne, Carol & Blue

 

[laker9142]

Deep blue here. Late apex turning is a very safe way to do curves at a faster pace. It keeps you from running off in the ditch or worse yet, running wide into oncoming traffic. It's also a good way to pass on a track day. While they run wide you shoot past on the inside. Not considered an inside pass as you going straight by then.

It does seem to be hard for people to get the hang of going into a left hand corner at speed, just inside the white edge line. Although it's 10 times safer that going into the same left hander on the center line, Where you meet trucks head on a foot over in your lane.

 

[jim snyder]

Here is a video I shot on Push Mountain Road (Hwy 341) in Arkansas. This low camera angle really let's you see the turn in points, apex, and exit of the turns.

 

[connie_rider]

virage à droite, virage vert, virage à gauche, virage bleu, pour cause, j'ai toujours peur des gens en face

Translation; Right turn, green turn, & left turn, blue turn. It's for a good reason, I'm always afraid of the people in front.

Thanx Ferabern

Ride safe, Ted

 

[connie_rider]

Thanx Jim. That shows the lines you and I use.
Everyone watch the video and tell us what they think.

2andBlue; Listen to the RPM's he's using.
It's prolly 4,000-8,000, not 6,000-10,000.
He's rolling in and out on the throttle, & not downshifting before the turns.
This is what I was trying to express when I sed Torque vs RPM's.

By the way; I was behind Jim that day.
Luckily another member {that was behind me} recorded it too.
(so, you can see my lines too)

OK, ok, Ohhh-tay.
I admit it. I may have lied about the video just a little.

Ride safe, Ted

 

[S Smith]

From a rider safety perspective I feel trail braking has its place more so on the track than street, mainly because its a more advanced skill and a technique that if applied improperly can lead to a loss of traction.

Some of the smoothest, quick, street riders I know use the brakes infrequently for street riding. This incudes a phenomenal rider I get to follow behind occasionally who used to instruct at California Superbike School.

At 4:52 in the OP video the presenter makes the statement without qualification that "the best, most talented riders in the world use the brakes the most." on the track. This seems contradictory to what former racer Nick Ienatch wrote about in his well-known article The Pace.

Here is another perspective on use of trail braking and a method to learn and practice the skill in a parking lot.

 

[laker9142]

I like to use Torque over peak RPM's.

Why do you prefer this over using higher rpm? You basically are throwing engine braking out the window, which really helps on corner entry. Not being negative, just curious.

let it drift out again as I accelerate out.

Don't do this. It defeats the purpose of late apex turning.
If your looking to accelerate off the corner, the sooner you stand the bike up the sooner you can get back on the throttle. This is especially true for a track day at our level. Real racers don't do this at all unless setting up for a pass.

 

[laker9142]

Some of the smoothest, quick, street riders I know use the brakes infrequently for street riding.

the best, most talented riders in the world use the brakes the most." on the track.

Two different things. Street vs track

 

[connie_rider]

Why do you prefer this over using higher rpm? You basically are throwing engine braking out the window, which really helps on corner entry. Not being negative, just curious.

Agreed; I'm using more brakes and getting less effect from the Engine braking.
Doing this as I think it makes me smoother, keeps the traction at a premium, and I have more control if I need to do an emergency maneuver when I exit the turn.
Realize that I have less accell out of the corner.
It's not the fastest way to get thru a corner, just smoother / more control.

NOTE; After the corner exit, we decelerate back to 10 over and cruise to the next corner.
Less chance of "Go directly to jail".
ie; Radar units are not in the corners. Are on the straight sections.

Don't do this. It defeats the purpose of late apex turning.
If your looking to accelerate off the corner, the sooner you stand the bike up the sooner you can get back on the throttle. This is especially true for a track day at our level. Real racers don't do this at all unless setting up for a pass.

Not sure I worded that correctly. Better explanation may be that I'm using a bigger radius in the turn.
In the video he said that as you roll the power on, the bike wants to stand up and go straight.
So, after the apex I point it back to the inside, then let it stand up as I roll on the throttle.
And (as I accell) I let it drift out a bit.
Another plus; I think that {going back outside} lets me see further down the road.

On my original video, pause it at the 6:37 point and look at the image. Trying to describe this.

NOTE: This is my method for the road.
When I do track days (or when I have an occasional {err} stupid moment I use more RPM's.

 

[connie_rider]

Steve posted; At 4:52 in the OP video the presenter makes the statement without qualification that "the best, most talented riders in the world use the brakes the most." on the track. This seems contradictory to what former racer Nick Lenatch wrote about in his well-known article The Pace.

I'll start with; I agree that New riders and people uncomfortable in the turns "need" to use the slow/look/press/roll method.
But I feel that {as they progress} they should practice trail braking and begin to be comfortable with it.
Because {If/when they start to press the corners, or when they suddenly "need" the extra braking} they will have their hand/fingers on the brake lever and know how to use it.

As far as the Pace (It was written in 2009); It is a good safe way to do group rides.
We used to do the Pace / no brake lights seen.
We worked to be smooth and not need/use the brakes.
If you hit the brakes (and {OMG} someone saw your brake lights) you felt like a failure.
So, (much like the video below) instead of braking, we occasionally gritted our teeth and leaned more.

I feel that the part of the COGdom that are looking to play in the twisities are more Intermediate Riders or maybe even advanced/Intermediate rider. (ie; experienced).
{I know that many of us think we are Experts. But most of us are Wrooooonnngggg}!

I'm not saying to use Trail Braking and go as fast as you can.
ie; I'm not saying to use it to;
,,,,, Go in fast, brake as late as possible, trail brake out, then accelerate as hard as you can.

I'm saying to use trail braking {ie; Gradually compress the front brake, and then gradually release the brake} "as" you do "look"/"press"/roll.
(Instead of letting go of the brake, and "then" do look/press/roll).

Watch this video. It explains the old style of braking vs trail braking.
The guy does a good job of explaining the differences.
After you get to know the method, I don't think that there is much difference in the 2 styles.
,,,,,, The biggest being "the rider is using the brake differently".

PS: Listen closely at the 8:40 mark.
{It sez; Just because that's the way it's always been done, doesn't mean it's the best way}.
I think he has a good point. "Thinkaboutit"

Ride safe, Ted

 

[ferabern143]

{He says ; Just because that's how it's always been done doesn't mean it's the best way}.

 

[kzz1king]

I am by no means a pro at corners or trail braking. One of the important things about trail breaking is it gives you a tool for those situations where you find yourself going in to hot. I think a lot of riders who dont practice have no idea what to do and freeze up. Aot of accidents up my way from over running corners this past summer.I find it smoother than just backing off the throttle. I like the Canyon chaser vids.

 

[ferabern143]

for me, it is true that all these years when I practiced enduro, competition or not, help me well for the braking, the turns, the changes of geometry according to the suspensions, the reading of the road...

 

[jim snyder]

I've always practiced the "look where you want to go, not where you are" method.

 

[2andblue]

I've always practiced the "look where you want to go, not where you are" method.

Has anyone else here been fixated before?

I have - and it would have killed us if I had not have forced myself to turn my head and look where we needed to go. Was quite scary and a momentary feeling of complete out of body…

Wayne, Carol & Blue

 

[kzz1king]

I've always practiced the "look where you want to go, not where you are" method.

I have been practicing that lately. I was getting fixated on potholes. I am good on looking through corners and scanning but when those potholes pop up at speed..... I need a little more work.

 

[laker9142]

YouTube just sent me this about late apex turning. It's very good. The turns at 9:45 are perfect examples. Same guy as the other video in post 1 and 12.

 

[laker9142]

10:07 shows a pass of the the guy that apexed too soon and is floundering on the edge of the track/lane. This is not an inside pass because you are going straight at this point. Inside passing is forbidden in the lower classes at a track day. Big motors shine in this situation!

 

[roger dodger]

Laker et al, I love this early / late apex conversation.

It makes me think I may be doing it all wrong ... and have been for years.

Maybe this 'old dog' can still learn a new trick. Many thanks!!!

 

[connie_rider]

Laker, another good video. Explains it better too.

Roger, that's exactly why I started this discussion.
After watching the video's, it made me think that I'm doing it wrong much too often.
ie; (Turn in too soon and stay too close to the inside of the turn for too long).

Hoping that the video's would start others thinking.
Want others inputs.

Lastly; On the RPM discussion, people keep saying their using RPM's in the turn vs. my Torque method.
But no one is saying what RPM's their using. (4,000-8,000 or 6,000-10,000?)
So those that said their using RPM's. What RPM range are you using??

NOTE: I use 4,000 to 8,000 and I'm generally 1 gear higher than someone using 6,000 to 10,000.
ie; If Jim/other is in 2nd, I'm in 3rd. If Jim/other is in 3rd, I'm in 4th.
I do this because I feel it's safer and gives me more control.

Ride safe, Ted

 

[texas.devops]

virage à droite, virage vert, virage à gauche, virage bleu, pour cause, j'ai toujours peur des gens en face

Justement. Les véhicules venant en sens inverse peuvent dériver au-delà de la ligne médiane.

 

[roger dodger]

"Exactly. Oncoming vehicles may drift across the center line."

 

[jim snyder]

Hope my video in comment #5 was helpful. The best compliment I've ever received about my riding came from Doug Re (ride/race instructor) after riding with me on Push Mountain Road a few years ago. After making a "spirited" pass on PMR with Doug following me, when we got back to Cliffs he asked me "Where did you learn to ride like that". I told him from riding behind good riders for years like Bob Wilde, Cliff, and many others and watching how they handled the corners. Following a good rider is a great education tool.

 

[laker9142]

Maybe this 'old dog' can still learn a new trick.

I don't know Roger, if you get any faster I'll have to work to stay in front of you!

But no one is saying what RPM's their using. (4,000-8,000 or 6,000-10,000?)

I like to go into a corner at approximately 8k. Probably slow to about 5k in the middle. Which is a good rpm to power out of the corner.

 

[roger dodger]

Following a good rider is a great education tool.

That's what I like to do ... especially on new to me roads.

Many thanks to Randy and David and others for your patience and good lines.

 

[2andblue]

Laker, another good video. Explains it better too.

Roger, that's exactly why I started this discussion.
After watching the video's, it made me think that I'm doing it wrong much too often.
ie; (Turn in too soon and stay too close to the inside of the turn for too long).

Hoping that the video's would start others thinking.
Want others inputs.

Lastly; On the RPM discussion, people keep saying their using RPM's in the turn vs. my Torque method.
But no one is saying what RPM's their using. (4,000-8,000 or 6,000-10,000?)
So those that said their using RPM's. What RPM range are you using??

NOTE: I use 4,000 to 8,000 and I'm generally 1 gear higher than someone using 6,000 to 10,000.
ie; If Jim/other is in 2nd, I'm in 3rd. If Jim/other is in 3rd, I'm in 4th.
I do this because I feel it's safer and gives me more control.

Ride safe, Ted

Spirited pushing - I like to be at 5,500 RPM for corner exit, gobs of torque and rocket-like horsepower.

From 5,500 - 8,500 I love the growl of Kawasaki’s engine and feel of the increasing power. Proper tuning on/off throttle is smooth and power delivery vertical.

Engine braking at this RPM also plants the front tire without burning pads. Then once pointed in the right direction and on the center of the tire exiting the turn we’re in a different zip code quickly.

Comes down to different riders, different zones of interest / comfort - no right, no wrong, enjoy your ride your way.

Now there are times when I just want to putt-putt, where I will shift at 4K - 4.5K. Still if putt-putting if climbing hills or accelerating I’ll hold the RPM 4K - 4.5K, no lugging the engine. Not that power isn’t be made at lower RPMs it is and plenty thereof but letting the machine spool is so much healthier in a power request scenario.

@connie_rider when we do a roll on we’ll need to start at a higher RPM lugging (digging) out of 2.5K RPM at full throttle is asking for the white ghost to be let out.

We have ~60K miles on our machine. Strong as ever and loving it. Missed riding this year (kind of a lost year with moving) will be back and can’t wait to rip as described above

Wayne, Carol & Blue

 

[Strawboss]

On a related note, guess I have to get some work done on the C-14, I rode the C-10 yesterday and smoothness out of the corners, not the abrupt "herky-jerky" throttle nonsense of the C14. Yes, I know what needs done. Some great stuff here.

 

[Bud]

On a related note, guess I have to get some work done on the C-14, I rode the C-10 yesterday and smoothness out of the corners, not the abrupt "herky-jerky" throttle nonsense of the C14. Yes, I know what needs done. Some great stuff here.

Mine was flashed when I got it. What's this herky-jerky stuff you speak of?

 

[2andblue]

On a related note, guess I have to get some work done on the C-14, I rode the C-10 yesterday and smoothness out of the corners, not the abrupt "herky-jerky" throttle nonsense of the C14. Yes, I know what needs done. Some great stuff here.

Shameful - The stock tuning Kawasaki put on this machine. Wonder how many customers they lost?

Believe it or not I bought the C-14 out of blind loyalty to the Concours and member recommendations. With the jerkiness I was wondering just how much the tuning could clean up and if I had made a mistake - was pleasantly surprised (and relieved) after it was completed! You will be too.. PM me if you want any recommendations / tuner personal experience.

Wayne, Carol and a smooth running Blue

 

[Strawboss]

I know what needs done, I've just been holding off and talking to people the last year or so, others that give me some more input other than "just do it, you'll love it", I just did not want to start another discussion on it.

 

[redline]

Has anyone else here been fixated before?

I have - and it would have killed us if I had not have forced myself to turn my head and look where we needed to go. Was quite scary and a momentary feeling of complete out of body…

Wayne, Carol & Blue

call me crazy but i use every opportunity to practice different skills. there is a rooad in town that has one man hole after another and or similar things in the road. especially when following cars I practice seeing the "object" and immediately focus where I want to go to "avoid" it.

 

[redline]

I'm reading through twist of the wrist II and there are certain things I am now practicing when cornering. late apex gives better visibility into the corner and also less lean angle (my goal).
Keep increasing throttle slightly and smoothly throughout the turn giving you better traction and coming faster out of the turn.
I always have my fingers on the brake controller but don't always trail brake, especially not on sharp quick turns. I ride alone most of the time but it would be so helpful to have someone follow and record or just give feedback which recently I had someone do that for me pointing out that i do the green bike turning. This also goes back to what you are looking at from what I understand. I always focus on the apex and then look for the exit, so as I focus on the apex it makes me turn in early. After I kept scraping the engine guard on the road on right-handers coming down the mountain friend of mine who followed me pointed out that I used too much lean angle and why (early apex).
I also used to stay more in the mid-range rpms but have changed that lately to keep the higher rpms and it makes a difference how the bike handles those turns and exits. Even though it may seem over the top, if you ride faster, shifting your body off the bike also helps with taking away lean angle which is something I've been practicing as well. I'm glad ya'll talking about this because it's not just more fun being better skilled at this and having more fun in the twisties but it makes you a better and safer rider, not just for your own sake but also those around you. Don't become complacent but keep reading these kinds of books and watch those videos. I have to do that a lot especially when i haven't been riding for a while like after the winter season. Get your mind ready, think about these things before you get on the bike, then stay focused.

 

[laker9142]

Keep increasing throttle slightly and smoothly throughout the turn giving you better traction and coming faster out of the turn.

This is old and misleading information ^^^^ and directly opposite of the concept of trail braking. You should be slowing through the corner until it's safe to get on the gas. From what I understand the concept of increased throttle was taught in safety riding classes 50 years ago and has been completely debunked today. I think one of the videos in this thread talks about it.

 

[redline]

This is old and misleading information ^^^^ and directly opposite of the concept of trail braking. You should be slowing through the corner until it's safe to get on the gas. From what I understand the concept of increased throttle was taught in safety riding classes 50 years ago and has been completely debunked today. I think one of the videos in this thread talks about it.

I think it would be fair to ask that when you make those statements, you provide some reasoning or proof. just because something has been around for a while is pointless. counter steering still works great and it's been around. I learned a lot from these books putting into practice what I learned. It made me a better and safer rider and faster. I've seen the difference in speed on those turns applying these techniques. I totally disagree with you that you should be slowing down through the corner. Have you ever seen any racer slowing down through the corner? you should maintain or slightly increase throttle through the turn and when you see the exit and start to stand up the bike is when you hit the gas. On another note, reviewing my videos from this weekend at the devil's cut rally, i still noticed That i use the early apex when a late apex would be the better choice but wanted to make sure everybody understands that this is not a one size fits all. it depends on the layout of the road (curves) where you are better of with an early apex instead. understanding the differences in those lines and choosing the right line is what matters.

 

[Konehead34]

Interesting that you bring up, "have you ever seen any RACER slowing down throught the corner?". We are not talking about race track riding. I'm pretty certain the discussion centered around efficiency navigating cornering on the street. That should involve the inevitable @h $#!+ moment when somethings there that wasn't a second ago, a being prepared to take an evasive line. Smooth in smooth out, but be ready.....jmtcw

 

[redline]

even in the videos (canyon chasers) he is talking about how it's wrong to say " it's only for racetrack" these techniques work on and off the track and keep you save. If you ever watch motogp or wsbk races and how much they have to be prepared for that moment and how often they avoid these issues , i.e. rider down etc. because they are skilled at this. Where do you think techniques like trail braking came from? I watched a few of those videos and he made the point that speed is never the goal but speed comes with learning these techniques.

 

[Bud]

Can't remember who said this. The correct line is the one that gets you through the corner.

 

[laker9142]

I think it would be fair to ask that when you make those statements, you provide some reasoning or proof.

Actually I thought I did when I referenced the videos in this thread. But I get it, I don't like it either when people refer me to videos of an internet "expert". My own personal experience dates back to 2010 at the National rally in Tomah Wi when a woman from the AMA gave a seminar on the many benefits of late apex cornering. I listened and learned enough to know that this was the way to go. So, I've practiced the method until I'm proficient at it and along the way learned about trail braking. I didn't know it had a name, I was just dragging and covering the brakes until corner exit. I've had many people comment to me about my brake light being on a lot. I just smile because I know they won't understand. So you can do what you want but if you want to be safer and faster you may consider late apex cornering with trail braking.

Also just to stir the pot a little.......... "The Pace" is boring and somewhat unsafe. The only thing that makes it safe is that you're going so slow, it's hard to make a mistake. Why would you give up the control of brakes and throttle? I steer with my throttle quite often in the middle of the corner. It alters your line without steering inputs.

So Ill give a couple more videos from the same guy (thanks Ted for sharing him). I like him a lot. Listen at 27 seconds in the first video. But listen all the way in both.

 

[connie_rider]

Redline, I brought up Trail Braking for the purpose of using it on the road. Not for racing.
I brought it up because I think it is safer (for an experienced rider) than using the Pace method.
I think it gives you more control.

(Look at my first post).
I like to think that I do use Trail braking and late apex, but after watching the video's I realized I'm not using it as much as I should.
ie; I think that I'm still using the older (Pace) style of going thru a corner.
(Setting corner speed and slowly increasing throttle and lean as I go thru the corner).

Watch this video.

I think you're misunderstanding what Laker is saying about throttle control.
He is not saying to trail brake to the apex, then "slam" the throttle full open.
He's braking as he goes towards the Apex, then he eases up on the brake and (as he does) he "is" using throttle control to smoothly increase the amount of throttle he's using.
But, With Trail braking from the apex, a person can use more throttle because the radius is bigger.

Both methods are similar in technique. ie; slow for a turn then accelerate thru/out.
The difference is when/how the braking is done.

Ride safe, Ted

 

[laker9142]

My own personal experience dates back to 2010 at the National rally in Tomah Wi when a woman from the AMA gave a seminar on the many benefits of late apex cornering.

I think about that seminar and the lady that gave it quite often. Many thanks to the organizers of that rally for having her come in. I believe Jeff K was one of the organizers, maybe Roger? Idk, but it helped me tremendously. Up until then I was riding it like a motocross bike, believe it or not.

He is not saying to trail brake to the apex, then "slam" the throttle full open.
He's braking as he goes towards the Apex, then he eases up on the brake and (as he does) he "is" using throttle control to smoothly increase the amount of throttle he's using.

This is true. I did slam open the throttle too soon once on the Superduke at a track day at approx. 70mph. It's really weird to have your helmet sliding on the pavement as you wonder,,,, whats going on?

 

[Bud]

Oops

 

[redline]

Actually I thought I did when I referenced the videos in this thread. But I get it, I don't like it either when people refer me to videos of an internet "expert". My own personal experience dates back to 2010 at the National rally in Tomah Wi when a woman from the AMA gave a seminar on the many benefits of late apex cornering. I listened and learned enough to know that this was the way to go. So, I've practiced the method until I'm proficient at it and along the way learned about trail braking. I didn't know it had a name, I was just dragging and covering the brakes until corner exit. I've had many people comment to me about my brake light being on a lot. I just smile because I know they won't understand. So you can do what you want but if you want to be safer and faster you may consider late apex cornering with trail braking.

Also just to stir the pot a little.......... "The Pace" is boring and somewhat unsafe. The only thing that makes it safe is that you're going so slow, it's hard to make a mistake. Why would you give up the control of brakes and throttle? I steer with my throttle quite often in the middle of the corner. It alters your line without steering inputs.

So Ill give a couple more videos from the same guy (thanks Ted for sharing him). I like him a lot. Listen at 27 seconds in the first video. But listen all the way in both.

I think we agree after all and maybe I didn't say things clearly enough. Again I don't go crazy stupid and speed is not my goal but like you learning these techniques and applying them where they become second nature. Speed comes with technique and confidence but everyone feels different about that and that is ok. going down the devil's highway this last weekend i really noticed where that late apex would have been the better way but kicking old habits it hard to do and at the same time they where sections where early apex was the better entry point. that is why i love the sports riding techniques and twist of a wrist books , they spell it out. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[Just Cliff]

After reading through this thread & watching the video's I will probably be blowing every corner now. I will be busy wondering if I'm blue or green, covering the brake, early apex or late. I normally just ride & not really think about what I'm doing. Now I'll have all kinds of distracting thoughts going through my head.

 

[jim snyder]

After reading through this thread & watching the video's I will probably be blowing every corner now. I will be busy wondering if I'm blue or green, covering the brake, early apex or late. I normally just ride & not really think about what I'm doing. Now I'll have all kinds of distracting thoughts going through my head.

Cliff,
You're doing just fine. You are one of the ones I mentioned who would be great to learn from by following you.

 

[fartymarty]

After reading through this thread & watching the video's I will probably be blowing every corner now. I will be busy wondering if I'm blue or green, covering the brake, early apex or late. I normally just ride & not really think about what I'm doing. Now I'll have all kinds of distracting thoughts going through my head.

NOOOOOOoooooo...forget that and just keep doing what you've always done. Please.

 

[fartymarty]

I'm terrible at turns. I know it and go slower than (almost) everybody else. I do know that I'm better when I'm looking through the turn which works great when you have clear visibility through the turn like say a lot of those 10MPH recommended uphill U turns.....but on unfamiliar roads where a rock wall, trees, or hill exists to block most of your view through the turn....well at my skill level, it's just slow down and my only recourse if it turns out I didn't slow down enough is to lean off the side and push the bike up to move my contact patch to a better part of the tire. I know, terrible technique, but it's what I've got. I tried a track day and found that for me it was useless for street application. Seemed more like a sales pitch to buy more track days. ( It was fun though.) Regardless it's nice to see the conversation about trail braking that actually is clear on what it is...in the past discussions half the people responding said trail braking was using only the rear brake through half the turn or more (to "stabilize the bike through the turn" what ever that means. Even with my poor technique my bike never felt unstable.)


I hope this little question isn't too much off topic....but in regards to body position in the turns (not trail braking but still cornering) I've gone with the idea that if one is concerned with the tire losing grip and sliding across the firm pavement (nice asphalt surface) that one should lean to the inside of the turn similar (but not as extreme) to road racers. On the other hand, if you are concerned with the road surface moving under the tire (chip seal that hasn't been rolled enough, gravel, dirt, etc.) then one should go slower and lean and shift on seat towards the outside of the turn or rather push the bike down similar to (again, not as extreme) how many motocross riders do.

Am I wrong on this? (<---go ahead and fire away at me, I can take it. )

(And if this wasn't off topic enough, then let someone start talking about releasing the left hand so that only the throttle hand is doing the steering and the two hands aren't fighting each other in the turn. )

 

[roger dodger]

I think about that seminar and the lady that gave it quite often.

Laker, I remember Sue Slate from ROK guided us in a few riding seminars. I love the early vs late apex conversation, but I'm still doing the Pace more often than not. I looked back and saw the name of her seminar was ' The more you practice, the better you become.' She was also at the Johnson City Rally.

Then we had parking lot practice of slow maneuvers and a few of us were very impressed.

 

[laker9142]

but I'm still doing the Pace more often than not.

Roger, if what you're doing is the pace, then I retract my boring and slow remark. You do quite well.

then one should go slower and lean and shift on seat towards the outside of the turn or rather push the bike down similar to (again, not as extreme) how many motocross riders do.

Am I wrong on this? (<---go ahead and fire away at me, I can take it.

Can't say for sure but this doesn't sound good. Maybe an expert flat tracker could make it work. Best to avoid or go slow and mostly upright, IMHO

 

[connie_rider]

Marty, its a different technique for a different purpose.
Look at the Motocrosser picture.
He is on a 45* berm and the bike is almost perpendicular to the berm face.
ie; He's not leaning the bike, he's keeping the bike perpendicular to the berm face.
Notice that the front wheel is turned to the left and he's in a slight drift with the rear wheel spinning.
His high body position is done to help push down on his outside (right) foot peg.
The (foot peg) push lowers the center of gravity and gains traction.

On the street, there is no berm and the wheel is turned to the right {the counter steer is done to make the bike lean to the left}.
But the rider leans inside of the turn to reduce/control the amount of bike lean. (prevents too much lean)

NOTE: At low speeds / in tight turns, the Motocross lean does work.

Ride safe, Ted

 

[fartymarty]

On the street, there is no berm and the wheel is turned to the right {the counter steer is done to make the bike lean to the left}.

Ahhh...huh?

Despite my bad cornering technique, I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on counter steering. So I respectfully disagree....yes to initiate the lean and start the turn one needs to counter steer then as the bike approaches what the rider feels is the proper lean angle for the turn they then start to turn the bars in the direction of the turn. If say entering a right turn the rider will counter steer to the left to get the bike to start leaning to the right, however (unless drifting/sliding the rear wheel) if the rider doesn't start then turning to the right to stop the increasing lean angle it will continue leaning more and more until it's on the ground. So in reality for the majority of the right turn the wheel is pointed slightly right.

In my case sometimes even when not trying to hit the apex or late apex but rather I'm going slow enough to just go around the turn without changing lane position I still have to adjust my lean angle in the turn because either I misjudged the turn ...OR the road builders changed the radius in the turn. I like to tell myself that the latter happens more than it probably does. Regardless, sometimes I get it right and I have to just hold it in the turn with my lean correct and the wheel is turned into the turn (I do sweepers better than twisties) but usually my established turn isn't correct and I need to counter steer again to change my position in the lane. Like I said earlier, my technique is much better when I can see all through the turn.

Your point about the berm is well taken, as I used a poor photo example.

Let's try another ...

However, I've probably taken us off topic enough, so feel free to ignore me and get back to trail braking. It seems to logically be a fine technique for going fast, although I think I prefer "The Pace". I'm not saying I can execute the pace very well, I'm saying that it seems to me to be a more enjoyable goal for sport touring than trying to go the fastest down the road as one would do at the track. Of course to each their own, some like broccoli and some don't.

 

[fartymarty]

Back on topic. I would say that I do both (Green and Blue) again not by design but by poor technique. I tend more towards Green for two reasons, 1) I thought that was supposed to be the perfect line, 2) I don't cross over the yellow line on exit because it seems pretty easy to control your exit speed with the throttle. That's when I do it as I'm trying to,..... however when I screw it up on too fast of an entry speed and get too close to the yellow line in mid corner, I then have to lean off the bike inside the turn as it's really a bad time to be putting on the brakes. I know if I counter steer to increase my lean angle that initially it will actually move my front tire even closer to the yellow line so I move my weigh into the inside of the turn and this seems to work as an emergency save for me. Probably it would be better for me to just go slower as a rule since my entry speed judgement as proven as somewhat iffy. At least with me leaning off of the bike on the inside of the turn I won't have as far to fall if I low side. I'm going to try and look seriously at trying the blue line as a goal and see if I can screw that up less than I do the green line.

 

[connie_rider]

You have a good point. But I think you misunderstood me. I was talking counter steer to imitate and control the turn. Agree that at some point in the turn you pull the wheel back. Just not as far back as the photo you posted.

Somewhere in this discussion I thought I posted a video of different lean styles (??).
(Can't find it now/ will try to find it).
Agree that other methods can be/are used.

Going to my first post on this discussion I started with I realized that I don't do the blue route as I thought I was doing,,,, I asked if others are blue or green.
From there we goy into a discussion that I think is helpful to many.

By the way; All of this is pointless if we always do the recommended (yellow sign) speed in the corners.
ie; It is EZ to just putter around the turns.
The biggest issue if we do the recommended is slowing traffic behind us.

Most of us push that recommended speed by some amount. If so, I feel that knowledge (how to trail brake) is safer.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I sed; The counter steer is done to make the bike lean to the left.

Wuz poor wording,: Shoulda sed; Counter steer is done to make the bike lean.
But,,, being honest, I never realized we turned the bars back to the left.

 

[ONOBob]

I’m getting a headache

 

[redline]

so to add to your headache - when i was watching the canyon chaser video, it might have been the 7 ways to become a better and safer rider , he was talking about hanging of the bike and how that is really not needed or not even good to do anymore because of how our modern bikes are designed. that honestly confused me a bit and maybe I just have to watch that video again. I've done most my riding on the street / twisties without hanging off the bike and can ride just as well but just to practice I did lately try it especially this last weekend on the devil's highway which really lend itself for that kind of riding. ( no knee dragging) but noticed a bit of an improvement as far as speed but not otherwise. I think one of the points he made is that we have less control over the controls because of our body / arm position. Interesting point. Hope you headache goes away

 

[ferabern143]

Firecracker, the bike is complicated

 

[fartymarty]

By the way; All of this is pointless if we always do the recommended (yellow sign) speed in the corners.
ie; It is EZ to just putter around the turns.

I agree Ted. I don't go as fast as you (my bike isn't RED) but I do go faster than than the yellow sign recommends.
Thanks for the video.

 

[ferabern143]

I respect the speed regulations and in addition and as I practice 90% of the roads narrower than on your videos, I am always afraid of vehicles coming in front
in addition the sidecar is blue and the motorcycle gray

 

[connie_rider]

Returned from the Final Fall Fling / Arkansas on Monday. So, here is my ride report.

We had a new guy and I rode sweep, so my normal speeds were reduced a bit, but we did 550 miles of twisties in 2 days.
Woo hoo!!!!!

I really tried to do the Blue or Green lines and Trail Braking.
In most of the turns, I was generally successful on the Blue vs Green line.
Trail braking was a little more difficult as I didn't need much braking at the speeds we were doing.
,,, Did it anyway. Felt strange, but got some practice.

I found that I sometimes used the turn technique {that Marty mentioned} in parking lots and slower/tighter speed turns.

I have to say the same thing that Cliff sed earlier.

After reading through this thread & watching the video's I will probably be blowing every corner now. I will be busy wondering if I'm blue or green, covering the brake, early apex or late. I normally just ride & not really think about what I'm doing. Now I'll have all kinds of distracting thoughts going through my head.

And now, "the Rest of the Story".
ie; And then we got to Push Mountain and I "tried" to follow Laker.
Woo hoo (#2)!!!!!

I really tried to do the Blue or Green lines and Trail Braking.
In most of the turns, I was less successful on the Blue vs Green line, but the Blue Route was used more than normal, and I was more successful in staying away from the yellow line.
ie; My mind sed; Arghhh!!! What the hecck are you doing? Idiot!! Don't go so late into the Apex!! Turn NOW.
Trail braking was used a LOT at the speeds we were doing.
The Trail braking still felt a little strange, but it Worked great, and I got some serious practice.

Redline; Like you. I used upper body lean, no butt sliding/knee dragging.

Admission; Being sane, I could kinda keep up. (When he was holding back for us)

Ride safe, Ted

 

[laker9142]

Trail braking was used a LOT at the speeds we were doing.

Was or was not? My comment on this is, you can't trail brake unless you carry enough speed into the corner. Enough speed that requires (some) braking all the way to corner exit. Probably difficult to do at first and requires changing a technique that's been done forever by most people.

I had great fun riding with the group. Jim is an excellent rider and a better leader. Also does the old method perfectly and it was good to see it in action for reference purposes.

 

[lrbuck]

If a rider does nothing, the bike will slow in a curve due to the lean angle. When the bike is leaned, the tires have a smaller circumference, which causes the bike to slow. Throttle is added to maintain or increase the speed. Once the rider understands why the bike is slowing, cornering speeds improve.

I started reading Kieth Code's books long before I learned what he was really teaching. I still go back and read whenever my skills need improving. I'm not a racer, but Code's "Twist of the Wrist" is one of the best.

Any of David Hough's (pronounced "Huff") books will help a street rider improve their skills. Money well spent.

Larry

 

[connie_rider]

Was or was not? My comment on this is, you can't trail brake unless you carry enough speed into the corner. Enough speed that requires (some) braking all the way to corner exit. Probably difficult to do at first and requires changing a technique that's been done forever by most people.

I had great fun riding with the group. Jim is an excellent rider and a better leader. Also does the old method perfectly and it was good to see it in action for reference purposes.

You said it perfectly. (Trail Braking)
At the slower group speeds, I was not needing it much when following the group.
(But I did practice using it anyway).
At the higher (Push Mountain) speeds, I was using it when following you.

And, I was practicing/using the Blue route in both circumstances.

Ride safe, Ted

 

[laker9142]

Admission; Being sane, I could kinda keep up. (When he was holding back for us)

Hmmm, what does that make me? . I love push mountain, but Missouri 125 takes the cake. Reminds me of Missouri 34 on the way to lunch.

 

[connie_rider]

No comment...

 

[fartymarty]

I "tried" to follow Laker.
Woo hoo (#2)!!!!!.....................
............. Being sane, I could kinda keep up. (When he was holding back for us)

Hmmm, what does that make me? .....

Ahhh....much faster than RED was the first thing that popped into my head.