What part of rider education saves more lives?

[S Smith]

I was recently at an administrative meeting for our state's motorcycle education program. During the discussion a topic came up that seems to directly correlate to several posts I have read here. I'll pose the same question the head of the program asked us during the meeting.

What part of a MSF BRC, ERC, ARC-ST rider education course can have the most impact on saving rider's lives... the classroom or on-cycle portion?

A key concept to remember is that street riding is more a matter of eyes and mind, rather than hands and feet.  The on-cycle portion builds crash avoidance motor skills, but use of the concepts and strategies presented in the classroom will save more lives. Consider that if you become more aware, scan ahead more aggressively, and stay focused on riding, most hazards can be avoided BEFORE they become immediate enough to require use of a learned avoidance technique like maximum braking or swerving.

 

[willyp]

That will vary with the person. Some people learn by doing, some by reading, and others by hearing. Personally I'm an 60% doing, 30% reading and 5% hearing. The other 5% I'm asleep with my feet up on the desk.

And besides I already know how to ride...

 

[ChipDoc]

When I took the ERC, I had been holding a MC endorsement on my license for 30 years.  I did it almost exclusively because Sam wanted someone to go with him.  Sam's actually been riding even longer than I have, so I figured there was probably something to learn, so I went with an open mind.

I learned what counter-steering was.  I'd never heard the term before, but it made sense when it was explained to me.  The rest of the class was simply reviewing things I already knew.  I confess to a bit of smugness when I discovered I was the only one in the class to score 100% on the test, but I've always been good at testing - even if I'm fairly ignorant of the subject being tested.

The driving portion was entertaining.  I had done all of the maneuvers before, but not in such a concentrated way, and it made me realize that my skills could stand to be sharpened.  I don't know why I was surprised that there was a test at the end of the driving portion too, but I squeaked by.  At the time, the ERC was a path to get your Florida MC endorsement, but I was grandfathered in and didn't need to pass the course.

All in all, it was a good experience, but not a particularly eye-opening one...

UNTIL I started to ride home with Sam.  At that point my mind started going over the things I'd learned and applied them to the practical exercise of riding down the road.  I discovered that I was thinking about things in a new way, and THAT was the real value of the course for me.  It made me view the whole situation with a fresh set of eyes and I know that it has made me a safer driver.

I don't think either the class or the driving portion has a greater importance.  The real value in the class was getting you to think about what you're doing in a fresh light.  In the end, it's all in the attitude, and mine got some major adjustment in that class.  Now I recommend these classes to everybody!

As a legal note, a year or two ago, Florida made the MSF BRC a requirement for obtaining a new MC endorsement.  You don't have to take it if you had Motorcycle privileges in another state and are converting to a FL license (the way I got mine) but to get a new one you have to take the BRC.  I think it's a GREAT idea.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

Personally I don't feel that there is any one thing that is the most impact on saving rider's lives. I feel that it's a combination of learning different techniques, gaining experince and applying what you have learned. So my answer would be that it's a combination of riding techniques that make the biggest impact. Not just one thing. Just my opinion.

 

[Victor Salisbury]

It's easier to "measure" the effectiveness of physical training, you see immediate results. "I did a swerve around that idiot who pulled out in front of me, whew, that was close, avoided an accident by golly!"

Now, how do you measure the mental process of how that operator got to the point of using his physical skills?
Which one was more important in that situation for that operator? His physical skills or mental?

That,  to me, would be hard to justify one is better than the other. They both are equally important, since the implementation varies so much from person to person, what they take away from it and how they utilize it is hard to tell.

The importance would have to be rated at the time of instruction by the coach recognizing an individuals strengths and weaknesses, then catering to those as best as possible. Attempting to challenge them in their weak areas, praising in their strong areas and stressing after this here course is done, you ain't done. We all have to keep practicing, acquiring more knowledge, striving to improve our skills in any manner possible.

 

[S Smith]

Keep the comments coming....  you guys are a great testing ground and source for ideas and quotes for M/C safety articles I write.

ChipDoc - Taking an approved rider education course to obtain a M endorsement became mandatory here in CT Jan 2011.  The current incarnation of the MSF ERC Suite allows the course material to used with or without classroom/written test.  It sounds like course you took in FL was a license waiver version since it had a written test as part of it. Many states with mandatory education are offering courses to cover not only novice riders, but also those who already have riding experience and presently have a learners permit. 


Vic - I agree completely.  How do you accurately measure someones ability to use the mental processing techniques and strategy taught as part of many rider education programs.  It is difficult. The written evaluation only tests that you remember the important ideas of the material, but in no way can it gauge any individual's ability to use the SEE strategy.  This is why it is important that the students have time to discuss and practice the strategy and techniques in class.

 

[Gypsy JR]

I am going to take a position squarely in Motorman's camp (Ride Like a Pro, Survive the Mean Streets) and say that the only training worth doing is conducted operating the motorcycle. Classroom is fine for law, what-if and video for discussion, and such.

What you want from MSF or, like my local mc is going to do 3 or 4 times this season, from setting up a training course with cones in a parking lot, is to develop instinctive motor reflexes which mesh with your thought processes. You can learn most of the thought process to begin with by seeing it done, but until you do it over and over, you won't master it well enough to save lives (yours included).

Not all motorcyclists ride solo or in twos or threes as COG seems to do. Most actually ride in groups, and if you do not train yourself well, you may kill one of the people riding with you. I have seen it happen on little old Hagerstown's city streets, where the a car pulled out and the first 3 bikes reacted incorrectly and killed the 4th bike rider because of it.

I feel strongly about this, because though I ride quite well, I am an Old Guy (tm) and I can't muscle my way out of situations like I could 20 or 30 or even 40 years ago. So just like I never trusted but one person to hunt ducks and geese in pit blinds with me (a fellow vet, and the only bonafide honest-to-god SEAL I have ever met since I left the service) I don't trust many motorcyclists to ride with me. Not because they might be poor riders, but because I don't know HOW they ride.

MSF and Ride Like a Pro help to standardize riding styles and how we react to certain kinds of situations, and that helps us be safer when we ride together. Not that we don't have to do it enough to develop actual trust.

 

[Victor Salisbury]

Timing of this discussion is good.
I'll be in Jacksonville, FL tomorrow for the MSF rETS. I'm heading up there mid afternoon today

Hmmm, wonder if the same type discussion might happen up there........ and I already have the answers  >

 

[Sport rider]

I'd say the classroom has the greater impact for me.  a brief practice period is really not sufficient to incorporate what is learned.  It's a nice break to get out of the classroom though. 

For me, I take what I learn and over time keep practicing in real life.  That applies to classroom, or reading materials.

 

[conniefan]

I think the classroom is great to learn the theory, but, IMO, you need the actual exposure in order to become proficient at it.  The more you practice the concepts and get familiar with traffic, the sooner the action around you "slows down" and your responses to events becomes more second nature.

I also think diligence is a vital key for safe riding.  Complacency while riding can really bite you in the ass.

 

 

[2linby]

In theory everthing in practice works...... :nananana:  The training process starts with the mental aspect first then practical application (on the bike). If they cannot aply the mental skills then
there is no getting around it, if the student does not have the physical skills then all theory and practical classroom instruction and knowledge is for naught.  However if all the physical capabilities are present and the student has no brains, then you are still at a loss and they are most likely at a higher risk of getting injured due to their inability to understand the actions that need to be taken.

I can teach a monkey how to ride a bike, but thinking and making the correct decisions under stress by putting the right physical action into play and learning situational awareness is another story.

80% of street riding is mental.  Maybe 81.327% or maybe its 83.426%  :-[

 

[Sport rider]

I thought it was 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097494459230781640628620899862803482534211706798214808651328230664709384460955058223172535940812848111745028410270193852110555964462294895493038196442881097566593344612847564823378678316527120190914564856692346034861045432 6648213393607260249141273724587006606315588174881520920

oh wait..... :-\

 

[carlson]

Learning the theory is a great thing, but while sitting through the class part of my BRC (before I even got an M license) I realized that I've already been using the SEE strategy for years driving my car. The only difference with the motorcycle application, is that you have to increase you attention and alertness by... hmm... 3.141592653589793?? 

 

[BOOTH]

I'm with Chip on this one: "I don't think either the class or the driving portion has a greater importance.  The real value in the class was getting you to think about what you're doing in a fresh light."

All the classroom instruction won't help you if you don't practice what you've "learned." And all the riding you do won't help you if didn't learn something in the first place to practice.

As a friend of mine is fond of saying: "Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent."

 

[lorneboden]

I was once taught a very valuable lesson.  ---  "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.."

In my riding career, I have attended BRC and ERC courses,  I have participated in group practices and learned from experienced professionals.

Some of my best lessons have been from those where the outcome was not what was expecting,  and in most cases this involved a slide or a skid in a controlled environment.  I find that in most courses there is not enough time spent on handling the bike and the rider in a controlled manner during an emergency event.  Learning to manage reactions, emotions and how to think in terms of avoidance, risk assessment and survivability in times of critical thinking.


As an "experienced" rider I have found myself in many a bad situation, often self induced that has required I lean on my learned skills to avoid the worst and make the best of the bad situation that I have either caused or contributed to.   

Experience to me means having been in the weeds and found a way out safely,  experience is not just practicing a routine of cones, turns and answering some questions,  it involves the good ( theory and practice ) and the bad ( controlled avoidance and skills management )

 

[mnofpeace]

Ill say 3...

Effective Countersteering...
with this...

Confidence in deeper lean angles...keeps you from giving up on a turn when you are in a little hotter than you wanted to be

thirdly, panic braking/braking threshold of the front brakes.  knowing how hard you can squeeze that brake and for how long, in a controlled manor.  I get so tired of hearing guys talk about how they do not use the front brakes that much, or in a panic, because they dont want to go over the handlebars...i mean c'mon-REALLY?!?!  :-[

 

[McJamie]

That will vary with the person. Some people learn by doing, some by reading, and others by hearing. Personally I'm an 60% doing, 30% reading and 5% hearing. The other 5% I'm asleep with my feet up on the desk.

And besides I already know how to ride...

This was going to be my first comment. I work as instructor here in Ontario and our training methods are very similar to what the MSF does. One of the first things were are taught at our instructor training, is that everyone is a different learning type. So it's difficult to narrow it down too much. But in the years that I have been teaching (15 plus? - long enough that I can't remember when I started ), "hands -on" seems to be the most effective training tool. I would say mostly because it is a physical activity that requires mental control, " doing it", seems to yield the best results, as opposed to "talking about it".

I always tell my students that it should be smooth, fluid and easy, if it's not, then you are doing something wrong, and the motorcycle is trying to tell you that. Practice is they best way to achieve this.

 

[S Smith]

That will vary with the person. Some people learn by doing, some by reading, and others by hearing. Personally I'm an 60% doing, 30% reading and 5% hearing. The other 5% I'm asleep with my feet up on the desk.

And besides I already know how to ride...

This was going to be my first comment. I work as instructor here in Ontario and our training methods are very similar to what the MSF does. One of the first things were are taught at our instructor training, is that everyone is a different learning type. So it's difficult to narrow it down too much. But in the years that I have been teaching (15 plus? - long enough that I can't remember when I started ), "hands -on" seems to be the most effective training tool. I would say mostly because it is a physical activity that requires mental control, " doing it", seems to yield the best results, as opposed to "talking about it".

I always tell my students that it should be smooth, fluid and easy, if it's not, then you are doing something wrong, and the motorcycle is trying to tell you that. Practice is they best way to achieve this.

The interpretation of the original question is warping a bit...  Let me rephrase. 

What knowledge set learned during a rider education course is more useful in preventing crashes, thus potentially saving more lives:  1) Motor skills or 2) Mental/Strategy skills

 

[BOOTH]

That will vary with the person. Some people learn by doing, some by reading, and others by hearing. Personally I'm an 60% doing, 30% reading and 5% hearing. The other 5% I'm asleep with my feet up on the desk.

And besides I already know how to ride...

This was going to be my first comment. I work as instructor here in Ontario and our training methods are very similar to what the MSF does. One of the first things were are taught at our instructor training, is that everyone is a different learning type. So it's difficult to narrow it down too much. But in the years that I have been teaching (15 plus? - long enough that I can't remember when I started ), "hands -on" seems to be the most effective training tool. I would say mostly because it is a physical activity that requires mental control, " doing it", seems to yield the best results, as opposed to "talking about it".

I always tell my students that it should be smooth, fluid and easy, if it's not, then you are doing something wrong, and the motorcycle is trying to tell you that. Practice is they best way to achieve this.

The interpretation of the original question is warping a bit...  Let me rephrase. 

What knowledge set learned during a rider education course is more useful in preventing crashes, thus potentially saving more lives:  1) Motor skills or 2) Mental/Strategy skills

Hi Steve!

Perhaps I'm still not understanding the question because it seems to me that the head instructor is asking the wrong question. If one is more important than the other, then we would presumably be okay to only focus on the important "one." I think they both fall under the "necessary, but not sufficient" category. It's not a case of either/or but of both/and. But then again - it's just my opinion. 

 

[lorneboden]

I second that comment,  the two are not mutually exclusive and it is a case of AND.

There is a fine balance that needs to be reached to achieve the best results.  Quality of education in both are vital.  In my BRC MSF course the instructor was not engaged in the classroom portion,  it was made to be mostly self study with open book testing.  It felt like the classroom was a boring formality that the instructor couldn't wait to get through.

On the range practical he was very engaged and a great instructor. 

A more balanced instruction would have been more suitable and yielded better results.

 

[S Smith]

I second that comment,  the two are not mutually exclusive and it is a case of AND.

There is a fine balance that needs to be reached to achieve the best results.  Quality of education in both are vital.  In my BRC MSF course the instructor was not engaged in the classroom portion,  it was made to be mostly self study with open book testing.  It felt like the classroom was a boring formality that the instructor couldn't wait to get through.

On the range practical he was very engaged and a great instructor. 

A more balanced instruction would have been more suitable and yielded better results.

You had a weak Ridercoach - The classroom portion can be very engaging.

 

[2linby]

Mental motorcycling is most important.  Any moorn, morrron, argghh... Any moron nose knows that!  :nananana: :nananana:

 

[Cap'n Bob]

They go hand in hand. You can have the best rider coach in the world. But if you do not have the right frame of mind, you won't apply it as well. And if your not in the right frame of mind when learning or riding, you may not grasp the lessons in the first place. So you need both, IMO.

 

[S Smith]

I'm not saying that they do not go hand in hand somewhat, or that learning and practicing physical skills is not important.  When taken in the big picture the actual amount of time we need to utilize evasive maneuver skills taught in the course are minimal. The mental skills learned in the classroom are being used all the time.  Riders who are very proficient in use of the mental skills may hardly ever need to call on the physical skills to save their bacon. Of course, the one time they need to swerve or max brake they should be proficient at doing it. 

 

[Ranger Jim]

Hmmmm. What is it MSF says? Something about "motorcycling being much more a skill of brain and eyes rather than hands and feet?"  Seems that should pretty much answer the question. 

 

[rwjc]

I was once taught a very valuable lesson.  ---  "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.."

In my riding career, I have attended BRC and ERC courses,  I have participated in group practices and learned from experienced professionals.

Some of my best lessons have been from those where the outcome was not what was expecting,  and in most cases this involved a slide or a skid in a controlled environment.  I find that in most courses there is not enough time spent on handling the bike and the rider in a controlled manner during an emergency event.  Learning to manage reactions, emotions and how to think in terms of avoidance, risk assessment and survivability in times of critical thinking.


As an "experienced" rider I have found myself in many a bad situation, often self induced that has required I lean on my learned skills to avoid the worst and make the best of the bad situation that I have either caused or contributed to.   

Experience to me means having been in the weeds and found a way out safely,  experience is not just practicing a routine of cones, turns and answering some questions,  it involves the good ( theory and practice ) and the bad ( controlled avoidance and skills management )

 

[mcfly]

As a "Short Term"  street rider, with most of the basic course still
lodged in my head, I'll add a whopping two pennies worth....

Out of what was given to me in the Basic Course, the information I
find myself re-visiting most during my riding is related to the
2, 4, 12 second rule.  Perceiving the road and traffic conditions is
an ever evolving and changing variable.  Using observational skills
and predetermining the actions of other drivers is the most critical
component of riding, IMHO.  The fact that most new riders get on a
motorcycle with the same mindset as being in their car is dangerous,
to themselves.  Having to never use emergency techniques IS the safest
riding.  Revisiting/practicing those skills are the responsibility of a safe rider.

The physical aspects of handling the motorcycle are much more prevalent
when in the course.  Students are all more worried about the box than
the written exam, and the contents of that information.  The MSF having
a 'mock test' almost mirroring it's written exam focuses the student to
certain 'answers' rather than the practical application of all the information
contained in the course itself.

As far as the motorcycle training part of the course, my trainers did a great
job with bike handling, and the importance of what we're doing applied to
every day riding.  The strongest part of the course to me.  Very well done.

So there's my input... It's one man's opinion, and opinions are like @ssholes,
everyone has 'em, and most of 'em stink!

Happy to contribute!

 

[willyp]

That will vary with the person. Some people learn by doing, some by reading, and others by hearing. Personally I'm an 60% doing, 30% reading and 5% hearing. The other 5% I'm asleep with my feet up on the desk.

And besides I already know how to ride...

This was going to be my first comment. I work as instructor here in Ontario and our training methods are very similar to what the MSF does. One of the first things were are taught at our instructor training, is that everyone is a different learning type. So it's difficult to narrow it down too much. But in the years that I have been teaching (15 plus? - long enough that I can't remember when I started ), "hands -on" seems to be the most effective training tool. I would say mostly because it is a physical activity that requires mental control, " doing it", seems to yield the best results, as opposed to "talking about it".

I always tell my students that it should be smooth, fluid and easy, if it's not, then you are doing something wrong, and the motorcycle is trying to tell you that. Practice is they best way to achieve this.

The interpretation of the original question is warping a bit...  Let me rephrase. 

What knowledge set learned during a rider education course is more useful in preventing crashes, thus potentially saving more lives:  1) Motor skills or 2) Mental/Strategy skills

Well, now that is an entirely different question... all the mental skills in the world won't save you if you don't have good motor skills... but motor skills alone won't save you from poor thinking... What good is thinking about dodging a bullet if your body can't perform the act? But with good strategy/ mental skills you might not have been in a position to have to dodge the bullet in the first place...

 

[rwjc]

As with most things in life, a skill not practiced is like a skill never learned properly. Even if you take a course once a month, and only ride 20 miles 1 weekend a month besides...you lose. It must be practiced and honed.

Ex, my 19 yr old has a Ninja 500. He took the MSF course, and passed with flying colors. Two weeks lair going down a major highway, him following me, we come to a light turning yellow in front of us. Doing 50MPH, I apply my brakes and stop just as the light turns red...my know it all, blows past me...WTHeck??

I catch up to him and ask what happened...he says he locked up his rear, and so let loose. I checked his brakes...they are fine as I had just put new HH on the front and a Kevelar on the rear. He did not use his front brake properly...so back to a local park for braking practice.

Now he stops better, but he does not feel he needs to practice often...after all, he took the MSF & read a very good book. 

I think many of the "lessons" learned and information is valuable, but you have to practice it to be proficient.

 

[conniefan]

He did not use his front brake properly...so back to a local park for braking practice.

RWJC, I'm curious, did he not use them properly, or did he not use them at all?  (Which technically, is still not proper)

I know of several people who have admitted that during their panic situation, they failed to use their front brake.  These are not novice riders, but people with years of riding on both the road and track.  In addition to practice and experience, we have to be focused and anticipatory when we ride.   

 

[S Smith]

I catch up to him and ask what happened...he says he locked up his rear, and so let loose. I checked his brakes...they are fine as I had just put new HH on the front and a Kevelar on the rear. He did not use his front brake properly...so back to a local park for braking practice.

There is one root cause for a rider to lock the rear wheel during braking... and that is over braking.  The most common for inexperienced riders is react as if they are in the car and stomp on the rear brake (not using the front brake exacerbates this). Another cause is as brakes are applied, weight transfers forward, the rear end lightens up, and the rider does not modulate/adjust rear brake pressure. 

 

[lorneboden]

I would agree,  riders of less experience, will stomp the rear brake and not apply the front enough or at all.  Many riders who are still new to riding avoid that front brake as it scares them. 

Grab a handful of that front brake and your in for a scare if your not prepared and experienced.

Practicing those emergency stops is good but so is preparing/anticipating for the light change which comes from experience and learned good judgement.    It sounds like you planned for or anticipated the light change, where as your son didnt.      SEEK and expect the worst, plan for an out of a bad situation.

Glad he was OK tho..  Been there and done that and it can be scary.

 

[S Smith]

It sounds like you planned for or anticipated the light change, where as your son didnt.      SEEK and expect the worst, plan for an out of a bad situation.

This highlights my original point....  The classroom portion of rider education focuses on the mental part of riding.  For the typical street rider, use of good street strategies can reduce the need to use those hardly practiced evasive maneuvers.

 

[rwjc]

I guess from knowing him, he was not giving his full attention in front of him, AND he did not se his front brake...I never heard him lock up..I guess he just wasn't paying attention. I go follow him sometimes to check his riding...he does not like this...then again, most children don't. LOL

He does pay much better attention now...he has laid the bike down only once, and hope it stays that way....

 

[lorneboden]

It sounds like you planned for or anticipated the light change, where as your son didnt.      SEEK and expect the worst, plan for an out of a bad situation.

This highlights my original point....  The classroom portion of rider education focuses on the mental part of riding.  For the typical street rider, use of good street strategies can reduce the need to use those hardly practiced evasive maneuvers.

I agree 100% that strategy and the mental skills are critical.  Often these are what allow you to avoid having to rely on the motor/physical skills.   

However knowing and understanding that 70% of your braking comes from the front brake and that its a good idea to use it,  and actually being experienced in how to use it are different skills.  I dont think one skill is greater than the other.  In every argument there is a dependency between these two skill sets and they are more effective when used in tandem.

 

[rwjc]

I agree 100% that strategy and the mental skills are critical.  Often these are what allow you to avoid having to rely on the motor/physical skills.   

However knowing and understanding that 70% of your braking comes from the front brake and that its a good idea to use it,  and actually being experienced in how to use it are different skills.  I dont think one skill is greater than the other.  In every argument there is a dependency between these two skill sets and they are more effective when used in tandem.

 

[S Smith]

I agree 100% that strategy and the mental skills are critical.  Often these are what allow you to avoid having to rely on the motor/physical skills.   

However knowing and understanding that 70% of your braking comes from the front brake and that its a good idea to use it,  and actually being experienced in how to use it are different skills.  I dont think one skill is greater than the other.  In every argument there is a dependency between these two skill sets and they are more effective when used in tandem.

I go back to the original question, which was meant to focus on rider education, not what is learned through experience.

BTW - the understanding that front brakes provide 70% OR MORE of potential braking is a component of the classroom material. 

 

[smithr]

You may not agree but the part of the rider education that saves the most lives is the part when the new rider panics and decides never to ride a motorcycle again.  I think past that once you decide to ride on the streets your running about the same risk as everyone else statistically.  There are lots of things to learn that will help you be safer but nothing you learn can change the kind of bad luck accidents you see people dieing from every day.  We see it here all the time.  Even the most seasoned riders are not safer in my mind.  You must accept your vulnerability every time you throw a leg over.  Sure if an idiot is going to throw himself off a cliff in a turn he might have benefited from a better education in riding but chances are not really.  I could blow a turn tomorrow that I have been on every day.

 

[S Smith]

You may not agree but the part of the rider education that saves the most lives is the part when the new rider panics and decides never to ride a motorcycle again.  I think past that once you decide to ride on the streets your running about the same risk as everyone else statistically.  There are lots of things to learn that will help you be safer but nothing you learn can change the kind of bad luck accidents you see people dieing from every day.  We see it here all the time.  Even the most seasoned riders are not safer in my mind.  You must accept your vulnerability every time you throw a leg over.  Sure if an idiot is going to throw himself off a cliff in a turn he might have benefited from a better education in riding but chances are not really.  I could blow a turn tomorrow that I have been on every day.

This is an interesting perspective.  Learning that motorcycling is NOT for you is best found out in a controlled and vehicle free environment.  I've had many students who decided to remove themselves or needed to be counciled out of a class.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

I really hate the word "counciled".  It is a fancy way of trying to make other folks think it's proper to inflict your beliefs on another person. Whether or not your beliefs might be right or wrong. (other than in your mind) 

 

[lorneboden]

I am sure this is way off topic,  but I am ready to be flamed for going off topic..  However....

Speaking of counseling or having a rider removed from the class...  When I took my BRC at a MSF facility there was a rider who came for a practical skills retest on the last day.  This individual had no business on a motorcycle,  they could not find gears,  forgot to gear up/down.  Ran through a ton of cones, missed the emergency stop completely and overshot the stop line by at least 25 feet.  Stalled on emergency stop,  took off in 3rd and 4th gear repeatedly and stalled.  Confused the clutch with brake levers,  wobbled around the range.  They were terrified of the bike,  scared to brake hard,  and had no real control of the equipment or themselves.

All the others in the class shook their heads in disbelief when the rider was issued a passing score at the end of the day.

IMHO that was one rider that should have been counseled out of the class,  never allowed to pass with those skills, and it makes me scared to share the road with a rider like that.

Having rider education is very important,  but based on my limited exposure and experience there needs to be improvement in the certification process and audits to ensure the quality of education and testing is a good as it should be.

 

[rwjc]

I get to flame 1st... 

WAY TO GO!!...better to be blunt a save a life than worrying about offending them and letting them get killed.  I would have gone to the instructor, then likely had them reported...just my thoughts..

 

[mcfly]

How about a tap on the guy's shoulder, and a "Are you sure you wanna do this?"  :017:

I'll still say classroom training will save more lives.  Though it is very important
to prove your ability to handle the motorcycle, practical advise in real world
situations will help set a rider's frame of mind properly, and give him better
perception of potentially dangerous situations. 

 

[S Smith]

IMHO that was one rider that should have been counseled out of the class,  never allowed to pass with those skills, and it makes me scared to share the road with a rider like that.

Having rider education is very important,  but based on my limited exposure and experience there needs to be improvement in the certification process and audits to ensure the quality of education and testing is a good as it should be.

Without being there to witness it personally, I would not jump to a conclusion there was a quality issue.

Instructors are trained to perform the evaluation very objectively and based solely on the curriculum's criteria.  A person is successful or not base on their ability to perform the evaluated skills within said criteria.  Sometimes people who did well in the course are unsuccessful, and sometimes folks were successful when they did poorly int he class. Instructors are not allowed to make a subjective decision... it is based on the eval criteria.

 

[rwjc]

well, if it was as stated..I would have spent a little mono y mono... having ridden , If it was as stated..I would have been very hesitant to give a passing grade,

but Sir I do agree, ya had to be there....

 

[conniefan]

This is an interesting perspective.  Learning that motorcycling is NOT for you is best found out in a controlled and vehicle free environment.  I've had many students who decided to remove themselves or needed to be counciled out of a class.

I think that being comfortable riding a m/c and being comfortable riding a m/c in traffic are two separate things to consider.  You may do quite well in the controlled world of an MSF course, but how will you mentally respond when some jackass pulls out in front of you?  Crash or no crash, you accept it and keep riding, or you sell the bike.  You won't know how you feel until it happens to you.

When novice riders have talked about buying a bike, I always suggest they first take the MSF course and see if they like it.  If so, I suggest they rent a bike for a few days and get out in traffic to see how comfortable they are.  Only buy a bike if you are okay with the potentially dangerous actions of other people on the road.

 

[rwjc]

well said...  they don't rent bikes here tho... 

 

[2linby]

I really hate the word "counciled".  It is a fancy way of trying to make other folks think it's proper to inflict your beliefs on another person. Whether or not your beliefs might be right or wrong. (other than in your mind) 

May I counsel you to actually look up the definition of the word?

According to the Encarta College Dictionary the word "Counsel" being used as it has been here in this thread is more closely related to the word Advice: advice sought from or given by someone, especially somebody who is wise or knowledgable.

Nothing fancy about it.  Nothing more than articulating your professional objective observations and or scoring.  I do this for every student regardless of their score. I am obligated to this task, not because I personally wish to "inflict my beliefs" but rather to give each student the advice I and my fellow instructor think they require to become a safer and better rider and driver on the road. I have many times "advised" students they, the student, are not ready or suited for motorcycling and it is in their best interest to pursue another avenue in life.

I start out each class stating that everyone is not ready to ride a motorcycle, but what better place to find out than in a controlled, observed, professional environment, rather than finding out on a busy highway.  Sometimes it is an inenviable job to tell someone who believes they are much better that you have observed and measured they did not pass nor are they ready. Yet sometimes these individuals do pass the tests. I call then the " Testing Idiot Savants". I mean what do you call the one hundredth graduate out of one hundred students from medical school?  You call them Doctor.  In these cases and to those who marginally pass we offer the highest degree of counselling to them in hopes they either return for more training and or never get on a motorcycle again.  In all cases every student is given the benefit of our observations and advice or counselling on what we think they should be working on in the near future.

With only 15 hours of training in each beginning class I can hope at best that as an instructor and representing a safety program we can start the beginner on the right path to learning and practicing the right way. In my 30+ years of riding I still see and learn new things everyday. And this is good, because I have the proper mindset to continue to learn, to continue to observe and to continue to act accordingly. These are all mental skills and as I stated before, I can teach a monkey to ride a motorcycle, but I cannot teach them to proactively seekout dangers, catagorize those dangers, formulate a plan and then initiate the plan to reduce their risk.  We call it SIPDE. Scan, Interpret, Predict, Decide, Execute
If the student has the physical skills but no brains, they are a bullet looking for a target. So once again motorcycling is 80% mental and ah, whats 100% minus 80% again????? 

As to note by Umfundisi as to the situation he described I have no comment as I was not there.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

I really hate the word "counciled".  It is a fancy way of trying to make other folks think it's proper to inflict your beliefs on another person. Whether or not your beliefs might be right or wrong. (other than in your mind) 

May I counsel you to actually look up the definition of the word?

According to the Encarta College Dictionary the word "Counsel" being used as it has been here in this thread is more closely related to the word Advice: advice sought from or given by someone, especially somebody who is wise or knowledgable.

Nothing fancy about it.  Nothing more than articulating your professional objective observations and or scoring.  I do this for every student regardless of their score. I am obligated to this task, not because I personally wish to "inflict my beliefs" but rather to give each student the advice I and my fellow instructor think they require to become a safer and better rider and driver on the road. I have many times "advised" students they, the student, are not ready or suited for motorcycling and it is in their best interest to pursue another avenue in life.

I start out each class stating that everyone is not ready to ride a motorcycle, but what better place to find out than in a controlled, observed, professional environment, rather than finding out on a busy highway.  Sometimes it is an inenviable job to tell someone who believes they are much better that you have observed and measured they did not pass nor are they ready. Yet sometimes these individuals do pass the tests. I call then the " Testing Idiot Savants". I mean what do you call the one hundredth graduate out of one hundred students from medical school?  You call them Doctor.  In these cases and to those who marginally pass we offer the highest degree of counselling to them in hopes they either return for more training and or never get on a motorcycle again.  In all cases every student is given the benefit of our observations and advice or counselling on what we think they should be working on in the near future.

With only 15 hours of training in each beginning class I can hope at best that as an instructor and representing a safety program we can start the beginner on the right path to learning and practicing the right way. In my 30+ years of riding I still see and learn new things everyday. And this is good, because I have the proper mindset to continue to learn, to continue to observe and to continue to act accordingly. These are all mental skills and as I stated before, I can teach a monkey to ride a motorcycle, but I cannot teach them to proactively seekout dangers, catagorize those dangers, formulate a plan and then initiate the plan to reduce their risk.  We call it SIPDE. Scan, Interpret, Predict, Decide, Execute
If the student has the physical skills but no brains, they are a bullet looking for a target. So once again motorcycling is 80% mental and ah, whats 100% minus 80% again????? 

As to note by Umfundisi as to the situation he described I have no comment as I was not there.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But I know what the meaning's of the word is. And I understand how you want to protray it in a teaching role. But it doesn't change the fact how it just sounds to me. In a teaching role, I prefer the sound of "teaching" or "discussing your evaluation of the student's progress with them".  That sounds much better to me. It is just me.
  But when I hear the word "counsel". I think of folks doing the opposite. Prime examples: Folks who do not drink (for what ever reason) counseling folks who do (again for what ever reason both good or bad). Or my favorite ones usually have to do with religion. "Counseling" folks on their behaviors as to a certain lifestyle. Or probably even the most heated one: The person who believes in antiabortion or pro life, "counseling" the pregnant person who might not have the same thoughts.
    I'm not trying to start any other debates on any other subjects. I'm just trying to convey how "I" think, as soon as I hear someone use the word Counsel in a statement. Unless they are a profession crisis professional,  Psychologist, or an attorney. My first thought is always in a negative way when I hear someone use that word. Sorry, but I prefer folks give me advice, or discuss their evaluation of my performance. But if you say you are counseling me. I immediately will probably disregard any advice, good or bad that you may have. Because now I would probably have it in my head that your wanting to inflict your beliefs on someone else. It could be totally Innocent and in need. But the use of the word "Counsel" by anyone who is not the three folks I listed above, kills it for me every time. Just the way I think when I hear folks use that word. Nothing personal.  :-*

 

[S Smith]

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But I know what the meaning's of the word is. And I understand how you want to protray it in a teaching role. But it doesn't change the fact how it just sounds to me. In a teaching role, I prefer the sound of "teaching" or "discussing your evaluation of the student's progress with them".  That sounds much better to me. It is just me.
  But when I hear the word "counsel". I think of folks doing the opposite. Prime examples: Folks who do not drink (for what ever reason) counseling folks who do (again for what ever reason both good or bad). Or my favorite ones usually have to do with religion. "Counseling" folks on their behaviors as to a certain lifestyle. Or probably even the most heated one: The person who believes in antiabortion or pro life, "counseling" the pregnant person who might not have the same thoughts.
    I'm not trying to start any other debates on any other subjects. I'm just trying to convey how "I" think, as soon as I hear someone use the word Counsel in a statement. Unless they are a profession crisis professional,  Psychologist, or an attorney. My first thought is always in a negative way when I hear someone use that word. Sorry, but I prefer folks give me advice, or discuss their evaluation of my performance. But if you say you are counseling me. I immediately will probably disregard any advice, good or bad that you may have. Because now I would probably have it in my head that your wanting to inflict your beliefs on someone else. It could be totally Innocent and in need. But the use of the word "Counsel" by anyone who is not the three folks I listed above, kills it for me every time. Just the way I think when I hear folks use that word. Nothing personal.  :-*

Bob come up for air....  )

The term used most often for providing feedback to student riders is "coaching."

Students are "counseled" if they have become a danger to themselves, other students, or the training staff... After that point they would not have to worry about listening to me any further.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But I know what the meaning's of the word is. And I understand how you want to protray it in a teaching role. But it doesn't change the fact how it just sounds to me. In a teaching role, I prefer the sound of "teaching" or "discussing your evaluation of the student's progress with them".  That sounds much better to me. It is just me.
  But when I hear the word "counsel". I think of folks doing the opposite. Prime examples: Folks who do not drink (for what ever reason) counseling folks who do (again for what ever reason both good or bad). Or my favorite ones usually have to do with religion. "Counseling" folks on their behaviors as to a certain lifestyle. Or probably even the most heated one: The person who believes in antiabortion or pro life, "counseling" the pregnant person who might not have the same thoughts.
    I'm not trying to start any other debates on any other subjects. I'm just trying to convey how "I" think, as soon as I hear someone use the word Counsel in a statement. Unless they are a profession crisis professional,  Psychologist, or an attorney. My first thought is always in a negative way when I hear someone use that word. Sorry, but I prefer folks give me advice, or discuss their evaluation of my performance. But if you say you are counseling me. I immediately will probably disregard any advice, good or bad that you may have. Because now I would probably have it in my head that your wanting to inflict your beliefs on someone else. It could be totally Innocent and in need. But the use of the word "Counsel" by anyone who is not the three folks I listed above, kills it for me every time. Just the way I think when I hear folks use that word. Nothing personal.  :-*

Bob come up for air....  )

The term used most often for providing feedback to student riders is "coaching."

Students are "counseled" if they have become a danger to themselves, other students, or the training staff... After that point they would not have to worry about listening to me any further.

Still sounds the same to me Steve. Rather than it sounding (like it is), that your failing the person because of their performance not being acceptable. You have now just come off as a "know it all, A hole", for what ever reason. You go from being a person of respect and authority in the teaching process, to that A hole who doesn't know squat. Only because you used the word Counsel!  )

 

[S Smith]

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But I know what the meaning's of the word is. And I understand how you want to protray it in a teaching role. But it doesn't change the fact how it just sounds to me. In a teaching role, I prefer the sound of "teaching" or "discussing your evaluation of the student's progress with them".  That sounds much better to me. It is just me.
  But when I hear the word "counsel". I think of folks doing the opposite. Prime examples: Folks who do not drink (for what ever reason) counseling folks who do (again for what ever reason both good or bad). Or my favorite ones usually have to do with religion. "Counseling" folks on their behaviors as to a certain lifestyle. Or probably even the most heated one: The person who believes in antiabortion or pro life, "counseling" the pregnant person who might not have the same thoughts.
    I'm not trying to start any other debates on any other subjects. I'm just trying to convey how "I" think, as soon as I hear someone use the word Counsel in a statement. Unless they are a profession crisis professional,  Psychologist, or an attorney. My first thought is always in a negative way when I hear someone use that word. Sorry, but I prefer folks give me advice, or discuss their evaluation of my performance. But if you say you are counseling me. I immediately will probably disregard any advice, good or bad that you may have. Because now I would probably have it in my head that your wanting to inflict your beliefs on someone else. It could be totally Innocent and in need. But the use of the word "Counsel" by anyone who is not the three folks I listed above, kills it for me every time. Just the way I think when I hear folks use that word. Nothing personal.  :-*

Bob come up for air....  )

The term used most often for providing feedback to student riders is "coaching."

Students are "counseled" if they have become a danger to themselves, other students, or the training staff... After that point they would not have to worry about listening to me any further.

Still sounds the same to me Steve. Rather than it sounding (like it is), that your failing the person because of their performance not being acceptable. You have now just come off as a "know it all, A hole", for what ever reason. You go from being a person of respect and authority in the teaching process, to that A hole who doesn't know squat. Only because you used the word Counsel!  )

Unless I missed it,  where did anyone state hey say the word "counsel" to a student. You jumped to that conclusion. 


Walk a mile in an instructor's shoes.

 

[Cap'n Bob]

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. But I know what the meaning's of the word is. And I understand how you want to protray it in a teaching role. But it doesn't change the fact how it just sounds to me. In a teaching role, I prefer the sound of "teaching" or "discussing your evaluation of the student's progress with them".  That sounds much better to me. It is just me.
  But when I hear the word "counsel". I think of folks doing the opposite. Prime examples: Folks who do not drink (for what ever reason) counseling folks who do (again for what ever reason both good or bad). Or my favorite ones usually have to do with religion. "Counseling" folks on their behaviors as to a certain lifestyle. Or probably even the most heated one: The person who believes in antiabortion or pro life, "counseling" the pregnant person who might not have the same thoughts.
    I'm not trying to start any other debates on any other subjects. I'm just trying to convey how "I" think, as soon as I hear someone use the word Counsel in a statement. Unless they are a profession crisis professional,  Psychologist, or an attorney. My first thought is always in a negative way when I hear someone use that word. Sorry, but I prefer folks give me advice, or discuss their evaluation of my performance. But if you say you are counseling me. I immediately will probably disregard any advice, good or bad that you may have. Because now I would probably have it in my head that your wanting to inflict your beliefs on someone else. It could be totally Innocent and in need. But the use of the word "Counsel" by anyone who is not the three folks I listed above, kills it for me every time. Just the way I think when I hear folks use that word. Nothing personal.  :-*

Bob come up for air....  )

The term used most often for providing feedback to student riders is "coaching."

Students are "counseled" if they have become a danger to themselves, other students, or the training staff... After that point they would not have to worry about listening to me any further.

Still sounds the same to me Steve. Rather than it sounding (like it is), that your failing the person because of their performance not being acceptable. You have now just come off as a "know it all, A hole", for what ever reason. You go from being a person of respect and authority in the teaching process, to that A hole who doesn't know squat. Only because you used the word Counsel!  )

Unless I missed it,  where did anyone state hey say the word "counsel" to a student. You jumped to that conclusion. 


Walk a mile in an instructor's shoes.

Hey I'm not disrespecting your part time profession. I only made a comment on the choice of words you used in a previous post. I only conveyed how that particular word sounds to me when folks use that word. Y'all are the ones who keep using this word in respects to your instructing postion. I don't need or want the aggravation of being an instructor. Besides, your shoes are too small. 

 

[Ranger Jim]

:truce: Can we get back on the topic, please? Geez, you guys :.

 

[rwjc]

The coach is right in his council...let's resume the topic....

I can't say if any one part of the course was more or less important. Like many stated, they all work in conjunction with one another, and practice often....

...and that's all I got's ta say about that.... :-X

 

[2linby]

:truce: Can we get back on the topic, please? Geez, you guys :.

Tastes Great!  :beerchug:

 

[rwjc]

less filling???!!  > 

 

[6 riders]

I recently took a MSF course, in Washington, I was able to take the 1 day (you know how to USE a motorcycle (clutch, breaks, seating position etc)) course. I was surprised that not everyone passed the "written" part of the test, and that everyone passed the "rider" part of the test. IMHO, combining the two into read and then ride parts. For example; let's talk about turns, and turning and THEN go ride the turns and practice turning and then talk about it again, onto the next subject.
BUT and this is the biggest part for me. I feel that the MSF course in Wa. was more about low speed maneuvering than it was about "how to safely ride a motorcycle" and I say that because NO ONE will EVER ride a motorcycle w/o having to deal with OTHER drivers/riders, and in my mind, that's what most people will struggle with, and die doing. What I mean is, if I don't counter steer my bike in a parking lot and dump it, mostly my pride will be hurt (and some dents on the bike). If I make a bad decision with lane choice, following distance, speed judgment etc etc and lay my bike down, a lot more than my pride will be hurt.
IMO MOST people cannot safely drive a car (making proper decisions, following to close, pulling into traffic) why would the MSF assume that even 20% of the people wanting to ride a motorcycle can make  ANY better decisions than an average car driver?
I taught my wife to drive, and when I'm with her, I'm really impressed with her decision making! I made driving a car SCARY for her, and that really sank in. I'd love for MSF to make their course "scary" for a new rider. Make them understand what happens when they lay their bike down and a 2 ton car drives right over the top of them. What's it like to "Over Brake" and hit face first into concrete, helmet or not, that will suck! Why are motorcycles the "organ donor machines"? Because a lot of people don't understand what a "front brake tap" can do to them physically.

Oh yeah, teach lane usage, I'm still trying to figure out the best lane usage for an old guy that rides "slow" (speed limit +5ish) I mean really, right lane? left lane? (ha NOT HERE). What if I'm on a 2 lane hwy, and a 3 lane? how about a major like I-5 3 to 6 lanes? Where am I supposed to ride "safely" meaning I don't want to get hit, nor do I want to out ride my comfort zone to keep up with traffic.

BTW, where do your mirrors point?

 

[ConcoursKZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=EFm3honeTQo&vq=medium#t=235

 

[Ranger Jim]

6 Riders: I presume you took the "Experienced Rider Course". You might find a different perspective if you'd taken the 20 hour "Basic Rider Course."  It still doesn't try  to make riding a motorcycle "scary" (your word) as riding is pretty scary already for a new rider but it does discuss lane positoning and riding strategy. 

 

[conniefan]

6 Riders:  Why does MSF need to scare it's students?  I guess I don't see the benefit of a "Red Asphalt" movie for the students. 

New riders need to be understand that they WILL experience people making lane changes in front of them.  They WILL experience people turning left in front of them.  They WILL experience hazards in the roadway (oil, sand, ladders, roadkill).  They WILL experience all sorts of things that don't seem as bad when you are in a cage.  MSF can teach you about it and what to do, but until you experience it first hand, you won't know how you feel about it.  With luck and practice, hopefully none of the events leads to an accident. 

This doesn't need to be presented in a scary manner, just as fact.  If people aren't willing to accept that risk, they should not ride.  My kids have a Simpson's video game where Homer is constantly saying, "Oh well, we all gotta go sometime!"

Stay safe.     

 

[6 riders]

I didn't mean make "riding" a bike scary, I meant "making BAD decisions" scary, as the real world results are just that. In order to pass the MSF course, which makes getting an endorsement just a trip to the Dept of Lic. and $25.00, the tests are all based on low speed "parking lot" maneuvers. The instructors even stated this fact before we started riding. I think that all riders should have to take this class, it's VERY educational, BUT the title is what part saves more lives. < And that is specifically what I was talking about. I'm not trying to flame riders, or the course, I'm just saying that there IS something missing that could save lots of lives. Remember that some of these people are never going to ride anything bigger than a scooter, and some are 17yo's that are going to jump on a crotch rocket and be riding with out any more education than the course that they just passed, of course some are also like me, who (even when driving a car) are constantly scanning for "trouble" and will ride slowly and patiently.
Just my $.02. I would like to see more riders, and less rider involved accidents.

PS remember that every time drivers see "road rash" out doing wheelies, with his buddies, on the freeway, EVERY rider gets a bad name for it!

 

[mcfly]

The majority of students in my class were just worried about passing...  There was
only a small percentage that wanted to 'absorb' the information, they only wanted
the information and skills to pass the test, so they can get on the road, legally.

Some shock and awe couldn't hurt.  The course NEEDS to grab the attention of its
students.  I personally feel the hardest part falls on the instructor, in trying to make
it interesting enough to grab students' attention, and KEEP IT.

The mechanics of riding were covered well in the class.  I think defensive driving is
SO much more critical in riding.  Getting students to understand that perceiving the
road as an automobile driver is completely inadequate.  Giving more information on
how a rider perceives various traffic situations needs more attention.  A bad decision
is much more critical.  A good rider sees it happen before it actually happens, and
takes action to prevent an emergency reaction.  At least that's how I see it...

 

[Tom NWGA]

I for one cannot separate the mental from the physical training I received in the various MSF courses I've taken.  One informs the other.  Immediately after taking a class I feel my skills are not that much better, but my awareness of them improves greatly.  With this knowledge, I can choose (or not) to practice and seek more improvement.  This awareness of my mental and physical skills led to the major improvement in my driving - being more aware of the ride, the surroundings, and the options.  This is mental in nature, but the exercise is not useful without being aided by knowledge of the physical attributes and limitations.

My 2 cents, gents.