• WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE ABLE TO POST AND ACCESS MEMBER ONLY CONTENT AND FEATURES
    Join / Upgrade / Renew your membership to enjoy full membership and posting privileges.
    For simple instructions, click here
  • Can't post after logging to the forum for the first time... Try Again - If you can't post in the forum, sign out of both the membership site and the forum and log in again. Make sure your COG membership is active and your browser allow cookies. If you still can't post, contact the COG IT guy at IT@Concours.org.
  • IF YOU GET 404 ERROR: This may be due to using a link in a post from prior to the web migration. Content was brought over from the old forum as is, but the links may be in error. If the link contains "cog-online.org" it is an old link and will not work.

ZX-14 or ZX-14R Exhaust for a C-14?

The Pope

Member
Member
Yes.... we are out here Ted....

Ok.... I haven't responded about this for a while, so here goes......

Ted, I don't think that this set-up will produce enough tangible results to warrant the cost, but I've been wrong before.

Now would I like to see what this set-up would do, yes. So if you want to chase this rabbit, I'll be there right along with you.

If for nothing else, a set-up with the valve to just dump the exhaust (straight pipe) would be nice when you're passing one of those "Loud Pipes Saves Lives" riders.

Jim Snyder said:
Ok here is my thought. The ZX-14 pipe is larger than the C-14. Therefore theoretically it will have more flow than the C-14 pipe. With that in mind there would have to be enough excess flow and back pressure to open said relief valve at WOT. So with a larger header with increased flow characteristics as the ZX-14 pipe has the question is how to determine if there will be enough excess flow. I would hate to see you go through all of this and discover that the ZX pipe flowed so well out the right side thst it would not allow the valve to open. This is just a theory of course. Next.
Forgot to add that this would be even more relative with aftermarket mufflers which flow more freely than stockers.
Jim, the ZX-14 will have more Volume than the C14. As for Flow, that's controlled more by the Velocity in of the exhaust. But yes, "if" the Velocity is high enough, a ZX14 exhaust will flow more than a C14's. Now the question would be "Is the Velocity within the C14's Exhaust high enough to take advantage of the Larger Volume of the ZX14's exhaust?". In the lower RPM's, I'd say no, but in the higher RPM's, maybe.

All in all, this is a good discussion, so carry on.  :great:

 

jim snyder

Member
Member
The Pope said:
"Jim, the ZX-14 will have more Volume than the C-14. As for Flow, that's controlled more by the Velocity in of the exhaust. But yes, "if" the Velocity is high enough, a ZX-14 exhaust will flow more than a C-14's. Now the question would be "Is the Velocity within the C-14's Exhaust high enough to take advantage of the Larger Volume of the ZX-14's exhaust?". In the lower RPM's, I'd say no, but in the higher RPM's, maybe".

Thanks Mr. Pope, I misspoke what I meant to say was "the ZX-14 pipe will have more potential flow capacity" rather than it will have more flow. Carry on.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Good thoughts. I think ya'll got this, but here is another explanation of my madness...

For sake of discussion; I'll assume the 2013 ZX-14R will have similar flow characteristics to a  Full area P system.
                                      (The 2013 ZX-14R is a new design, with bigger head pipes, no Catalytic Converter, and a 2 chamber collector)
Points:
a} A Full Area P Systems flows thru 1 {2 1/4"} midpipe.
b} A ZG-1400 Exhaust flows thru 1 {2'} midpipe.
c} A ZX-14R header flows thru "2" {2'} midpipes.

I intend to restrict the ZX system by flowing thru only "1" {2'} midpipe .
The other will have a 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve' {"VB-PEV"} to relieve that pressure..
                                                    Ain't that a catchy name!!!

I'm hoping the 2" Midpipe will help the ZX-14R headers keep {more torque at lower RPM's} and the "VB-PEV" will open "just enough" to give the system more flow when needed.  {hopefully, allowing more power at WOT/high RPM's}

ie; The 2" Midpipe should maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.
    & If when proper springs are located, the valve will only open at WOT and high RPM's.
                   
Cost: The ZX-14R header can be found for under $100.
        A stock ZG muffler could be used.
        The "VB-PEV" Valve can be built for about $100.

Ride safe, Ted
Yea, I know.  I sed assume, if, maybe, hopefully, and should a LOT!!!  :confuse:
 

The Pope

Member
Member
connie_rider said:
Points:
a} A Full Area P Systems flows thru 1 {2 1/4"} midpipe.
b} A ZG-1400 Exhaust flows thru 1 {2"} midpipe.
c} A ZX-14R header flows thru 2 {2"} midpipes. <-- you should think of this as 1 {4"} midpipe


ie; The 4" Midpipe should will not maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more less restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.

I made a few (all though significant) changes to help you to better understand something that I feel that you may have overlooked/miscalculated.
 

jim snyder

Member
Member
The Pope said:
connie_rider said:
Points:
a} A Full Area P Systems flows thru 1 {2 1/4"} midpipe.
b} A ZG-1400 Exhaust flows thru 1 {2"} midpipe.
c} A ZX-14R header flows thru 2 {2"} midpipes. <-- you should think of this as 1 {4"} midpipe


ie; The 4" Midpipe should will not maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more less restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.

I made a few (all though significant) changes to help you to better understand something that I feel that you may have overlooked/miscalculated.

I have to concur with the Pope on this one. With that much flow capacity I do not think there will be enough back pressure
to open the said valve. The only way to combat that would be with a more restrictive muffler which may defeat the purpose
of the experiment. But don't quote me on that.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
I haven't followed every post, but if someone is floating the idea that pressure in the exhaust is going to be used to open the valve, like a poppet  / relief valve, that's absolutely not the way to go. In that scenario the pressure has to rise to a preset point and then would do what  -
1) open up and dump all the pressure?

2) maintain the pressure at the preset level?

So either way you're building pressure, when you're trying to make power. not good.

  the issue that should be looked at at here is maintaining flow velocity at low throttle / flow settings, and having enough unrestricted volume flow at high throttle / flow settings. If a valve is used it should be activated not by exhaust backpressure, but by rpm/throttle position. and it needs to be determined on a dyno what that setting is. JMO, steve

 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Again, all of you made good point's.
Thank you for your input!
NOTE, {in all my replies} I'm not being a smart A__.
              I'm  just trying to explain what I'm thinking. {so ya'll can help me figure this out}  :great:
                  Please continue to question my thoughts and offer suggestions!!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Pope and Jim, I agree with you. I think 2 (2" Dia.) midpipe's is overkill. [because the combined area of the 2 pipes is too great].
    That's why I sed; I intend to restrict the ZX system by flowing thru only "1" {2'} midpipe.

What you said, also gets back to the root of this idea.
    I think the guys that are running a ZX-14 system {with 2 Mufflers} on their Connie, may be giving up low end torque.
    ie;  "Because of the 2 - 2" pipes/mufflers", there is no restriction at lower RPM's and no back pressure..

By the way, 1 {4" dia. midpipe} is not an equal comparison with 2 {2" Dia. pipes} because the cross sectional area is "so" much greater.    Believe it or not, a single 2 7/8" dia. Midpipe is a closer comparison.  But 1 {2 7/8" dia. pipe} still has more cross sectional area than 2 {2" Dia.} midpipe's..
NOTE:  I have no idea how to calculate flow, so I'm using Square area as a comparison.
          ie; 1 {2" Dia.} pipes is 3.14 In2.  {1 stock Concours pipe}
                2 {2" Dia.} pipes is 6.28 In2.  {2 ZX-14 pipe's}
                1 {4" Dia.} pipe is 12.56 In2. 
                1 {2 7/8" Dia.} pipe is 6.49 In2. {approx. equal to {2 ZX-14 pipe's}}
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Steve, your points are very important in this idea. {and the hardest to determine}
On the first, I choose your answer #2) maintain the pressure at the preset level?
    I'm intentionally planning to maintain pressure because I think all exhaust systems have some internal pressure.
      (Particularly at WOT and high RPM). If adjusted right, the valve won't open until abut 6000-7000 rpm's.
    The valve wouldn't exactly maintain a set pressure, it would establish a opening pressure. {Might be as low as 1- 2 psi}.
  The problem is determining what the ideal pressure is, how to make it happen at WOT and high RPM's, and how much opening is required.  {See Reply #94 and "*Do you happen" / below}

On the second; I think 1 ea. - 2" dia  Midpipe attached to a ZX-14R system will have more flow velocity than the stock 2" dia Midpipe that is used on a ZG-14 system. And I'll be using the exact midpipe and muffler.
So, sufficient Flow velocity at low RPM's shouldn't be a problem.
  I think the ZX system itself,, will have more flow thana ZG system, because the head pipes/etc are larger and it does not have a catalytic converter.
  I think more pressure will occur, because the Flow Velocity is faster, "and" the 2" pipe will restrict it slightly as rpm's rise..

On the 3rd; Your correct. The opening should be controlled by rpm/throttle position.
                              But, I'm not smart enough to do that. 
                              The {temporary} spring controlled valve idea is the easiest/cheapest way to see if relieving the pressure at high rpm's will effect anything.
                              ie; It can be done to any ZX-14 Exhaust without removing the plastic, or doing extensive mod's.
                                    {Several weak springs can be used to adjust when and how far the valve opens}.

Your last point is an important part of my evil plan: it {valve opening} needs to be determined on a dyno what that setting is.
I totally agree with you!!!
    If, I build/supply this,
    If, someone already has a ZX-14 system on their bike, and is willing to make it available
    If, someone had access to several programs to try,
    and, if (someday) that someone has some spare time.
  A few Dyno runs could determine the spring adjustments, the amount of opening, and give us some numbers..

**Do you happen to know of anyone that has a Dyno and tuning skills??? >:D

Ride safe, Ted
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Ok, another day, more thoughts.  >:D

Pope, you sed it RIGHT!
  ie; The 4" Midpipe should will not maintain back pressure at low/mid RPM's. {as it is more less restrictive than the 2 1/4" Midpipe}.
Jim, your there too; The only way to combat that would be with a more restrictive muffler

I'll start with; We've ignored the design of the ZX header itself because it is, what it is....
Here's my thoughts.

A ZX header is designed to give optimum performance at high rpm's.
  the ZX, Being a Sport Bike {Kawasaki gave up some low end torque to get more top end power}.

A ZG header is designed to give optimum performance at all rpm's.
  the ZG, being a Sport Tourer {Kawasaki worked harder to keep more low end torque}.
        Being a COGger,,, I want more top end power "without" giving up low end torque!!

I'm thinking that Kawasaki helped determine the different power bands;
                          by putting 1 - 2" midpipe/muffler on a ZG.
                          by putting 2 - 2" midpipe's/muffler's on a ZX.

Steve: you said,  So either way you're building pressure, when you're trying to make power. not good.
Again, your right, but the idea here is not to build too much pressure, the idea is to develop a way to control how much pressure is built, and when.

NOTE: During this whole thing we've talked about increasing or decreasing flow.
We're not exactly doing that.  An engine is an air pump and only flows "x" amount of air at a given rpm.
We're not increasing or decreasing that.  What we're doing is trying to control the resistance to flow.
ie; With the 'Variable Back-Pressure Exhaust Valve', I'm hoping to keep the resistance at low RPM's equal to a ZG, and the resistance at high RPM's equal to a ZX..

Hopefully, that's clear as mud?
Let the flames begin.

Ride safe, Ted

PS: All the bike manufacturers use an EXUP valve to restrict flow at low rpm's and {with a computer} open that valve at high RPM's. This just another way of accomplishing the same thing. 
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
Ted, you are confusing some issues. Back pressure works at low rpm to help stall some of the fresh charge running right out the exhaust during the overlap period, thereby lessening cylinder pressure and thereby torque. When you're full tilt, WFO when the cam timing is in it's zone, you don't want backpressure; at that point you want scavenging at it's fullest. At this point scavenging will help build cylinder vacuum and get the incoming chage moveing in more quickly and with a stronger flow. this can actually build over 100% VE if the scavenging is doing it's job. You need to get away from this idea of having backpressure when you're trying to make power, or the backpressure is going to prevent you from building the power the rest of the combo will be capable of. steve
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Thanks for replying.
I follow you, and agree to what you said.

But, I don't think your following my thoughts.

I'm trying to match the back pressure of a ZG at low/mid RPM's, and prevent "excessive" pressure at high rpm's.

As I sed;
I think 2 - 2" mufflers allow too much flow to give good low/mid range power.
To match ZG low/mid RPM resistance, I'm installing only 1 ZG muffler.
  I think that single {2"} muffler will work like a Stock single ZG muffler, and allow low/mid range torque.
  But, I think that single muffler {on a ZX header} will be too restrictive at WOT/high RPM's.


So, I'm adding a valve {*with a small/weak spring} that will stay closed at low rpm's, and open / decrease pressure at WOT/high RPM's.
*I think a weak spring can be located that is resistant to low/mid range pressure, but will open when I want it to. {at WOT/high RPM's}
I agree that when open, it will maintain some resistance/back pressure.
  But "that" resistance/back pressure will be less that flowing thru only 1 muffler.

NOTE: If (Pope and Jim are correct) and the single ZG muffler is big enough to handle all the flow at WOT/high RPM's, the valve will never open, regardless of how small of spring I use. It would only open if the single muffler is too small for full flow...

If it works, {and we actually see any improvement}, the next step would be to measure that opening, and then find a way to open the valve the same amount {or a bit more} electronically.

Ride safe, Ted
 

face33

Sport Tourer
As much as I love tinkering and admire your readiness to put time into this - something says that if 2 weeks delivering pizzas earns an AreaP then just get that Ford smelling like pepperoni for 2 weeks and be done with it :D 

I have questions(!)

What the heck are you talking about? An external valve that allows more exhaust to exit the muffler?

I usually imagine valves in the mid pipe somewhere operating similarly to our secondary butterflies. Usually used in cars to lower sound levels until go time. Figured you were into that to maintain some low end with 2 pipes. But I'm thinking you want to use one to purge more exhaust out of the entire system? If I am on track then I have more questions . . . (!)
 

jim snyder

Member
Member
Ted,
  I have another suggestion. You have an awesome motorcycle with more power than can be used responsibly. Stop stressing yourself out over this and just go riding. Your header you have with the muffler you have sounds awesome and as mentioned you have more power with the new flash than you will ever need. I'm not trying to discourage you (well maybe I am) but get out there and enjoy the ride my friend. You worked all of your life to get to this retirement thing so get out there on the road and enjoy it.  :beerchug:   
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Fais, your right. Easier to just buy the Full Area P.
Just bouncing an idea around..

What the heck are you talking about? An external valve that allows more exhaust to exit the muffler header?
Yes, but I want the valve to open only when more flow is needed.

I usually imagine valves in the mid pipe somewhere operating similarly to our secondary butterflies. Usually used in cars to lower sound levels until go time. Figured you were into that to maintain some low end with 2 pipes. But I'm thinking you want to use one to purge more exhaust out of the entire system?

Yes again.
I'm thinking 1 muffler is better for low rpm's. But additional flow is needed at WOT/high RPM's.
The thought; At WOT, 1 muffler may be too small to handle the flow. If so, pressure would increase inside of the system.
    If that happens, the valve would sense the increase in pressure and open to decrease/purge that excessive pressure.

Jim, your right too. Should probably just forget about it and go ride.
          But, I like trying to figure out how to make something work. Part of that enjoyment is discussing what-if's..

Ride safe, Ted
 

jim snyder

Member
Member
Steve in Sunny Fla said:
Ted I get what you're up to, But pretty soon you're gonna have to stop postulating and get to cutting and welding.

Before you do though, i want you to watch this video. think of issues like "scavenging" and "backpressure"  and "maximizing cylinder pressure".... Steve

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs

WOW, those videos are awesome Steve. I also watched the one about No More Exhaust Myths and it explained in detail why
my 4 into 2 into 1 worked to increase torque.  Great youtube find my friend.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Thanks Steve. Great Video.
After watching it, I scanned a few more and found even more good info.
I (better) follow your reasoning on Scavenging..
1 of the video's said "0" PSI is the ideal exhaust manifold pressure, with 2 psi being the max pressure.
    (In a car at 3000 RPM's)
I've been guessing 1-2 psi for the pressure my valve opens. (So my guess was pretty close)
  (Relatively EZ to reduce that opening pressure).
(Jim: I wasn't able to find your No More Exhaust Myths video yet. Send it to me if you can).

Your right that I eventually have to start cutting and welding.
My plan is to do that after Cliffs Ride. (April)
  Until then I'm keeping the stock exhaust on the bike so I can enjoy your new EVO Flash.

While I'm waiting for that date, I'm thinking/talking (too much), trying options, some fabricating, and ordering parts.
  The headers are here and modified for an oxygen sensor. {For AFR during dyno runs}
  Plug for total blockage of the left Port has been machined. {for pressure testing}
  EXUP Valve motor came in, was disassembled, studied, and deemed too difficult to use.
  SS valve (located by Jim) has been ordered. {coming on a Slow boat from China}
  Looking for a set of ZX stock mufflers to use in the test.
  {Getting a set of stock ZX-1400 mufflers from Rasmith}

NOTE: I was up early this morning packing to do some of what Jim suggested. (Get away from this house and go to the Ranch).
          NOTE: I would go riding, but I absolutely HATE riding alone, and all my friends still have to work for a living.
          Going to push myself away from this computer now and head out.
          I'll be back on Sunday.

Ride safe, Ted
 

smithr

Member
Member
Morning Ted,
I was out yesterday and did not look into this till now.

I would opt to go the electric control route over the spring control.  Why?  Because force is constant.  If you need force to open the valve it will equal the force there before.  In other words the back pressure before the butterfly could be the same.

You could use a pressure sensor on the variable vacuum port to sense a level of pressure to open the valve at but you would need an electronic circuit that is adjustable to be able to tune where you want it to trigger the valve to open.

A micro switch may be the best option.  As the throttle control passes a point it just triggers a solenoid to open the valve.  Opening time is set by where on the throw the switch gets hit.

I have seen a couple cars that have butterfly valves in the air intake.  Usually not good for use in exhaust but I have seen one used on a pipe between the exhaust header and the air intake to help warm the intake air until the engine is warm.  That may be a place to look.

I feel you are going to have a hard time not causing turbulence with the bf valve in the path.  It may end up causing as much back pressure as you are trying to eliminate.  It really is down to experimentation and that can only really learn you something if you have the right equipment at easy access.  Trying to send a proto to someone in Fl to have Steve do a Dyno seems counter productive.
Enjoy!
 

mattchewn

Member
Member
Ted,
YOU SUCK!  just had to get that out there first.    :nananana:

All this postulating and postulating about exhausts and flow has driven me to the edge again. I am on the waiting list for the next shipment of FULL AREA P BABY!! No more of this halfway there garbage, gimme the big bang and the, Oh soooo sweet, Area P music once more.

SISF,
Be ready for the second round of ECU flashing for my bike! SCOTTY, I NEED MORE POWER!!


>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D


Matt
 

face33

Sport Tourer
Man i remember blasting by you leaving Steve's. I was on your newly flashed AreaP bike and you were on mine. You came by me playing the air violin 🎻 it sounded so sweet! I follow John around Knoxville and the full system has a serious growl. It's a pretty great sound.

You'll be glad to have that back  :motonoises:

 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Ok, back from the Ranch and see you've been posting some replies while I was away.

Steve; Great Video. I watched it before I left, and again today.  {paid particular attention to the segment your noted and I agree completely}  Believe it or not, I'm attempting to do exactly what he stated. {reduce back pressure}
        I realize the spring is not the ideal, it is a initial way to see if a valve will have any effect.
          {ie: if the valve doesn't open,,, there is no back pressure and 1 Muffler is fine}
                  if the valve does open,,, 1 muffler is too restrictive.
                  "The BIG if; if the valve does open, I keep {ZG like} low end and also gain (ZX-like}Top end power
                          {I'm on the right track and can maybe move to an electronically controlled valve}

Bob, you hit everything petty close. Electronic control/operation is best. The spring valve is a step towards that. {see above}
                  Read our earlier notes; At that time I wasn't smart e'nuff to figure out how to control the valve electronically, and I couldn't locate a valve..
                Micro-switch will work, but I think it has to be in series with another sensor of some type. {RPM/Pressure/Other?}
                The reason for 2 is; I want WOT, "and" high rpm opening only.
                  NOTE; The valve I have ordered is vacuum operated.
                            The vacuum portion can be replaced with a solenoid.

Matt: YOU SUCK TOO!  {had to get that out there as well}    :nananana:
        Since we both think the other guy sucks, we can treat each other as equals.  :-\
            ie; you can help me figure this out.  :sign0085:


  Just want you to know... I'm Really Happy you have your new exhaust on order. 
            I know you like the power it gives you.

  * Personally, I'm so good, I don't need all that power to make me look good...    :nananana:
          (and I get to keep "my" license)    :-[


Fais/Twin;  I are confused.. Who passed who?
          *  i remember blasting by you
          ** You came by me

Ride safe, Ted

PS: I hope everyone understands that Matt and I are just picking on one another.
      I know I'm not as good of rider, and he is more of a mechanic.
        My riding style is more "Old and Slow". And I'm a theory guy, not Chief Mechanic.
          Luckily, I "ARE" better looking..
 

face33

Sport Tourer
^^^^ Both are true!

He wanted to hear his bike so I blew past him while riding his bike; he was on mine. I wanted to keep my license so I slowed back down and he came by me playing the air violin. Must have sounded sweet.

I can say it felt pretty sweeeeeeet! Luckily, I don't have the craving for that. Before Steve's flash I said the AreaP had lag time and I didn't like it. Well, that excuse doesn't work anymore. I just finally am happy with a slip-on and a flash and can say I don't ALWAYS have to part with every possible penny (just usually). Ted, I'll be waiting to see this ZXr set-up with extra exhaust valve once i can picture where the valve will be. Can it be on the end cap so exhaust still exits the rear - or ?? Where else?







 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Ahh, now I comprehend...
I agree, both DO sound sweet when their wound up!

Below is a ZX-14R Exhaust. {open it}
On the photo's at the bottom; click to the next to last photo {you will see 2 Header exhaust ports at the rear of the header}.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-15-KAWASAKI-NINJA-ZX14-ZX14R-EXHAUST-HEADERS-OEM/152112234050?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D98b0ed274be44d698651d715fa5fe7cc%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D111820733387

Both ZX exhaust ports are 2 1/8" O.D.  x  2" long.
I will remove 1" from the left port (upper in the photo) and install the valve there.
          {The valve will be "in" the same location as the 1" I removed}.

In order to do this;
      I will weld a 1" long section of 2 1/8" I.D. pipe "before" the valve.
              (that pipe will fit over the modified left exhaust port)
      I will also weld a 1 1/2"  long section of 2" I.D. {2 1/8" OD} pipe "after" the valve.
        (A stock ZX {left} muffler {or mid-pipe} would slip over that 1 1/2" long section of pipe) 
      When finished the left muffler would fit in exactly the same location as a std ZX {left} muffler.

A stock {right side} ZX muffler will be installed on the right side of the bike..
When installed that muffler will fit in exactly the same location as a std ZX {right} muffler.

NOTE:  For initial tests; {I don't have a set of ZX mufflers yet}
                                  On the right side, I'll use my Area P Slip-On or a stock ZG Muffler. 
                                  On the left: I do not {initially} plan to install a left muffler.  >:D
                                    Instead, I'll install a 3" long section of "open" pipe. {with a turndown tip}
                                    {Reason; With it in place, I can hear when/if the valve opens while riding}.
                                The entire {left} valve and open pipe/turndown will be located under the belly of the bike. (unseen)           

            Until the valve opens, all the exhaust flow will go out the right muffler. {just like a stock C-14}
            If enough pressure is developed at WOT/High RPM's, the valve will open and things should get noticeably louder. <evil grin>

Ride safe, Ted
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Previously I sed;   Until the valve opens, all the exhaust flow will go out the right muffler. {just like a stock C-14}
  "If" enough pressure is developed at WOT/High RPM's, the valve will open and things should get noticeably louder.
<evil grin>

NOTE: The single ZX-14R Header and Area P Slip-On will flow more than a stock ZG Exhaust/muffler system.
          So the "if" is a big "if" as it may never back pressure. {to open a valve}

Ride safe, Ted

Another,,,  I sed earlier;
PS: I hope everyone understands that Matt and I are just picking on one another.
      I know I'm not as good of rider, and he is more of a mechanic.
        My riding style is more "Old and Slow". And I'm a theory guy, not Chief Mechanic.
          Luckily, I "ARE" better looking..
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Matt, your back!  I wuz afraid I'd scared you away with the {Painful but true} I'm better looking note.  :p

Back to your note; You know good and well I do get into the higher gears.
Problem is, I've been known to get into the higher gears, before I have much speed.
So {unlike you} I don't need top end POWER, as much as I need low end TORQUE!!
  (PS: {Occasionally} I do have a wild hair and wind her up.)
          On those rare occasions, I want some of your top end power...

Fais/Twin: Thank you for your notes. They are helping me refine my idea.
Yes; I'm concerned with turbulence.     
When the valve is closed and all the flow is going thru the single/right muffler, I think turbulence will develop inside the collector {at the bottom of the left port}.
As flow increases I think that turbulence will cause back pressure.

I have plans to smooth the flow across that area.
    (** Not sure of details yet as I need the valve to determine that step, below is a partial explanation).

I'm hoping that when the valve opens,,,, that turbulence {and some of the total flow} will move out the left port.
I'm not particularly concerned with turbulence at the valve itself, because the flow will be minimal.
  {If turbulence/pressure increases at the valve, it will adjust for it by opening more}. [I hope]  :-[

Attached is a Back Pressure video of an X pipe. View it and see the different flow characteristics at low and high flow.
      The flow thru the collector and into the ports of this header are similar to an X pipe.
      {on this header, the collector is divided into two separate tubes by a dividing plate, and the flow exits thru 2 ports}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naq5Bcl7z-E

** My plan is to smooth the flow by placing a plate at the "bottom" of the left port.
  {That plate will direct flow to the right port and {somehow?} allow pressure and some flow to pass thru the plate when the valve opens}

Yes, I know I'm out of my mind.
    But, I'm having fun.

Ride safe, Ted
 

face33

Sport Tourer
I think you are in your mind. SittIng around watching Judge Judy and The Today Show woukd likely drive you out of your mind  :rotflmao:

Ill be in the garagae today too - check out the track day thread between drawing up your mad plans(!)


:beerchug:
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Judge Judy and the Today Show aren't that bad.
But, Judy insists on the Soap Opera's.
  Those make me crazy!
      {Luckily I can lust after the actresses on them}.  :great:

Today, I'm gonna do yard work... ughhhhh :-[

I've been watching many of the YouTube video's on exhaust and backpressure.
As Steve said, too much back pressure is bad.
But, too little can be worse. {because it kills power too. Particularly low end power}.

My mission is to find the ideal...  >:D

Ride safe, Ted

PS: Enjoy the track day!!    I really wish I could be there!
      Hans and Gretcherin arrive the day after, and I need to stay home {to get everything ready for their arrival}.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
connie_rider said:
I've been watching many of the YouTube video's on exhaust and backpressure.
As Steve said, too much back pressure is bad.
But, too little can be worse. {because it kills power too. Particularly low end power}.

  Well that's not exactly what I said, and I think the distinction matters. ANY back pressure when you're trying to maximize power is bad. Steve
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Steve, I'll never get that far.
I admit, I'm not a tuner, I'm a parts changer/fabricator.
Not looking to maximize power. Looking to improve power over the power band.
ie; Hope to install a ZX header, keep similar low end of a  stock ZG and gain some top end with the ZX header.
    My thought is use only 1 muffler {to help maintain torque},
      and use the valve {to open if more flow is needed at WOT/high RPM}
    The spring controlled valve is being used temporarily; for ease of installation, and to let me know if back pressure is
      developed by the single muffler.
  If I see indications of improved power,,, the spring will be replaced with an electric Solenoid.

This is similar concept to what parts changers do when they buy a Area P Full system.
  They bolt on the new system and gain some power. (Improved but not optimum)
  You've been able to adjust the ECU with your Flash {on the Full Area P / etc} to optimize the performance.

Here is the valve I ordered.
Note: A solenoid can eventually fit where the vacuum port is setting.
          http://www.ebay.com/itm/262855594366

Ride safe, Ted

PS: The video's posted are where I started when I was looking for a valve.
      These systems dump flow, but do not control how much is dumped.
      I hope to determine how much should be dumped.
 

Steve in sunny Fla

Iron Butt
Industry Vendor
  " Not looking to maximize power. Looking to improve power over the power band."

Ted - to me it's not semantics, I feel that if you're going to improve something, you ought to try to maximize the gains. So in my mind maximizing in this case doesn't just mean top end, though that is what I was referring to a couple posts back. I mean seriously, if you're gonna do it, do it right. explore all the power gains. You have time between Judge Judy and Dr Phil  ;) (are those shows even still on?) Steve
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I agree with you Steve and will do all I can to get the power curve I want.
What I meant was I'm not concerned with peak HP as much as smooth usable power.
NOTE:  I'll tune it to my optimum.
          I realize that my optimum is not your optimum, {as I don't have your experience and equipment}

Right now, all I can do is do research, develop plans, discuss Idea's, and order parts.
I've already done all the machining I can.
Some material for the lathe and the valve is currently on order.
As soon as the valve arrives, I machine the steel, and find a way to mount it, and then I get to figure out how to make it operate.

At some point, I'll install the header, and start tinkering there.
  Step 1 is determining if 1 muffler is better or worse than 2 mufflers.
    Assuming I need more flow at WOT/High RPM's,,
  Step 2 is finding out if I can make a valve open when I want it to.
  Step 3 is adjustments.
  Step 4 or 5, or 6, or etc,,, is where I can start final improvement's.

Until then, I plan to ride the bike to a few rallies with your new Evo Flash.

Ride safe, Ted

Yes Judge Judy and Dr Phil are on every day. <gloom>
Judy watches them daily and wants me there with her..  :-[
  I hide at the computer {writing long notes}, in the garage {tinkering}, and I even occasionally go for a ride.

 

Grendel

Tricycle
Would a PCV with the auto tune addon be able to read the difference in pressure and auto modify the A/F ratio to keep everything stable?  I'm not sure how well the PCV is with automatically adjusting the fuel map on the fly, or if it's a horrible idea outright and it should be tuned on a dyno and that's that.

Ryan
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
I don't know anything about a PCV/Autotune, and don't plan to go that way.
I'm looking for a mod that others could do on the cheap.
Hoping that one of Steve's Flashes work with the ZX-14R exhaust.

Right now, I have his Evo Flash. It's tuned to keep smooth low end (etc) power..
I love it!!!
But I suspect his Full Area P Flash would be a closer match.
Will find out someday...

Back Pressure Discussion thought.
My son recently removed his stock exhaust and installed a Gibson Cat-back system on his 2014 GMC Truck.
Truck goes like stink after the install but he mentioned he gave up some low end torque and didn't like the sound when cruising.
Told me that many in his group, go back and reinstall "the valve" to get the torque back..
I thought "VALVE"????  I looked at his old system to understand what he was talking about...
Turns out that GM Trucks have a spring controlled butterfly valve in the system.
That valve controls all flow thru the system at all times.
{I think it mostly comes into play when the truck drops back to 4 cylinder cruising}

Thoughts??

Ride safe, Ted
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Back Pressure Discussion thought.
My son recently removed his stock exhaust and installed a Gibson Cat-back system on his 2014 GMC Truck.
Truck goes like stink after the install but he mentioned he gave up some low end torque and didn't like the sound when cruising.
Told me that many in his group, go back and reinstall "the valve" to get the torque back..
I thought "VALVE"????  I looked at his old system to understand what he was talking about...
Turns out that GM Trucks have a spring controlled butterfly valve in the system.
That valve controls all flow thru the system at all times.
{I think it mostly comes into play when the truck drops back to 4 cylinder cruising}


This morning, Aaron had the valve re-installed in his exhaust system.
Installed it just before the muffler.

He said torque and drivability immediately improved....

Not sure about WOT yet, but seems to be the same...

Ride safe, Ted

 

Rasmith

Member
Member
A lot of posts to go through so I'm just posting this without going through the history of this thread Ted.

I have 2008 ZX14 Headers. These have slightly larger tubes. It does have a CAT.
I had the 2008 Mufflers but didn't like all the chrome so went with a new set of 2014 ZX14R take-offs. I didn't notice any performance gains which met my expectations. What I didn't expect was how much smoother it feels.

Center Stand foot peg is a clearance issue and needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately I understand Muzzy is not around so the remade center stand and left hanger may be a challenge to get.

Steve, I was planning on the evolution flash but not sure if this configuration meets your specs.
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
New discovery.
I picked up the ZX-14 Mufflers from Rasmith. {to install for this test}
After I got them home, I discovered that they don't fit the exhaust ports on my (2012 ZX-14R) headers.

Apparently, Kawasaki made the exhaust ports larger. (Starting in 2012).
          2006 - 2011: O.D. is 2" (??)
          2012 - 2017: O.D. is 2 1/8"

I also discovered; that the I.D. of Rasmith's (2008 ZX-14) muffler :'(are too small. NOT the muffler itself.
                          So, I can install C-14 or 2014-2017 ZX-14R gaskets {in the 2008 mufflers} to solve the problem.
                          &  {If I build this and opt not to use a Left Muffler}, I can use my Area P Slip-On for the right side..

Ride safe, Ted

UPDATE: The set of ZX-14 mufflers were offered by Rick Davis (Rasmith) to raise $$ for OtP.
            I was working on installing ZX-14R headers' on my bike, so I bought them.
              {I sent the $$ to "OtP" donations}...

            It appears that I don't need to use Rasmith's 2008 ZX-14 Mufflers.
              So,  If someone else is interested in the Mufflers, contact me. 
                I'll sell them for a $100+ donation to "OtP". (plus shipping)
                These mufflers are the chrome 2008 ZX-14 Mufflers.
                They look like new!!!
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
So, how many cats are you going to run?

None;
  The 2012 ZX-14R Headers do not have Cat's...
  Plan A: The 2008 ZX-14 mufflers do not have Cat's...
  Plan B: My {ZG-1400} Area P Slip-On does not have Cat's..

Rasmith has 2008 ZX-14 headers with Cats on his bike,,, and some black ZX-14 Mufflers that (I think) might also have Cats.
He may have 3 Cat's??  Sed it runs fine...

Ride safe, Ted
 

connie_rider

Member
Member
Still seeking information;
    Has anyone preformed Dyno Runs on their Connie after installing ZX-14 headers??

As I understand; Several have installed the Headers (and think it runs better), but none of preformed Dyno Runs?

Ride safe, Ted
 
Top